Talk:Raiden (Metal Gear)

page is being vandalized over and over again.
To anyone who cares: Plz., revert the page to it's previous version. It has been vandalized over and over, through the past days. I could do it myself, but I don't have enough time. --Zephir 00:34, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

sword in metal gear solid 4 guns of the patriots
In the trailer for guns of the patriots it shows Raiden back looking like a cyborg ninja but what I find awkward is that he is not using the high frequency blade, in fact he is using two different swords and a knife. The sword we see him use is a long rough steel blade with a grip. I would like to know what happen to Raiden's HF blade. --(ryo)

Yeah, that struck me odd too. I mean, the H.F. Blade is the Sword of Swords, soo naturally we'd assume he'd be using it... unless one of those swords IS the H.F. Blade and it went under a redesign or simply looks different because of the major graphical differences between MGS2 and MGS4


 * I agree with the second theory. It could merely be the same high-frequency blade but with a different appearance due to Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty and Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots being released SIX years apart. (Myscrnnm 04:14, 18 April 2007 (UTC))


 * I don't see why they'd need to be the same H.F. Blade. It's not like there's only one, they are probably manufactured by ArmsTech or Tokugawa Heavy Industries or one of the other fictional MG companies. Gray Fox used on as well, after all. WtW-Suzaku 21:45, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Gray Fox's sword is to believed to be a diffrent sword, I'll find this sword later. But I am sure it is not the High Frequency Blade (Otaconx)


 * Gray Fox's sword is also a high-frequency blade, but it's an older model, with a cable that connects to his exoskeleton, presumably for a power source.(Myscrnnm 20:54, 7 October 2007 (UTC))

Far-fetched
Raiden is rumored to be Link from Legend of Zelda, as they both are similar to each other. Link never talks, and Raiden usually misinterperates what Colonel Campbell says sometimes(ie:Colonel says nodes, Raiden misunderstands it as nerds) meaning they both have little knowledge of English., and both are highly adept at sword use. C'mon, who is supposed to beleive this tripe. Metal gear ninty 21:53, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Raiden is good at english, Raiden didn't misinterperate the GW saying, he just misheard it, If he didn't know much english then he wouldn't know what Nerd would even mean, so he just misheard it, even though him and link both are good with swords, there is one big diffrence between them, and that is Link has a shield and raiden is just a sword user Otaconx

References Jumbled
I've included some references, but this seems to have jumbled things up, I'm new here so I don't know how to correct this, so could someone fix it please? Metal gear ninty 11:04, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Raiden's Role in The S3 Plan and Negative Fan Reaction
This whole paragraph seems rather subjective. Who is to decide what Raiden's role in the game is and how it corresponds to the general populace? If this is the words of Kojima or some other authority that should be explained. --user:Sentius


 * Agreed, I've been a bit iffy about it since it was added; I was hoping it would get trimmed up, but it appears that isn't going to happen. I'll get rid of it later today if it's still there and hasn't been updated. --Asriel86 17:23, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

Why in blue fuck does Raiden have high heels on ??

Trivia
Anyone else got any trivia to do with raiden?

Good job on adding the 'Jacks' information Jonny, I knew there was something else to do with his name. --user:Mysticflame

Solid Snake is actually Raiden's uncle by law because of his family status with Solidus Snake. -Cid and Ryo (Mostly Cid)

Um...we'll... originally the character of Raiden was actually going to be a cyborg, and would have this triangle-like design on his stomach, which was revealed durring the Arsenal Chapter when Raiden is removed of his sneaking suit. I'm glad Hideo decided to make him human >.>

Solidus' suit
Solidus Snake from MGS2 wore a combat suit that seemed to expand his muscles and such, giving him extra strength. Raiden's suit seems to share the technology of the suit as seen from the trailer. When he holds onto the turrets on one of the Metal Gear GEKKOUs, his suit expands. And at the end, as he sheathes his sword, you see steam emanate from the suit as it recedes. So yeah, someone should note the similarity.

Metal Gear Intergal (GBC)
Is it of any note that it is often speculated that the GBC Metal Gear game may have you playing as Raiden, unbenknownst to players. He is reffered to as 'Jack' a few times, and the popular internet ruling is that this was the 'vr' mission Raiden did prior to Big Shell.

Think it's worth it?03:24, 27 May 2006 (UTC)~

I think you mean 'Metal Gear Ghost Babel', and yes, I've seen screens of that bit. I'm trying to get to the 'Jack' scene myself - I'll make sure to put a screenshot here when I find it. --87.114.18.235 19:19, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Removed some unsourced text
Again, I like this section, but it needs a reliable source. This Geocities site is not a reliable source.

"In contrast to the American reception, Raiden was quite popular in Japan, probably due to his deeper voice given by Kenyu Horiuchi in the original Japanese version (in contrast to Quinton Flynn's more effeminate voice acting in the English version) and a generally more mature portrayal in Kojima's original script. An androgynous appearance is also generally more acceptable in Japanese pop culture. Despite his relative popularity in Japan, Raiden's negative reaction among English-speaking gamers prompted Kojima Productions to alter his character design for Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots."

Please don't replace it until you have added a proper source. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:52, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Why isn't geocities a reliable source? —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Bread (talk • contribs)

Because we have no way of knowing that anything posted there is true. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 08:37, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay then

(The Bread 04:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC))

Image:MGS4 Raiden render.jpg
Can we please not use this image for the infobox? His effeminate appearance is a major part of this article's focus, and as such we should not use an image that completely conceals same. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:52, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that the image should show him with a mask on, since Raiden typically shows his face. 12.219.74.52 15:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I prefer to use the latest incarnation of the character over the oldest, but whatever suit your tastes. At least don't discard the image I've uploaded. I put it there to give a full body shot of Raiden's new looks. Jonny2x4 05:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

"Some believe the new image hollow"
I would like to know who these people are. The 'new way to perceive Raiden' is very in line with the notions of the worldwide guerrila-style warfare that Liquid Snake (through Ocelot) apparently begins to unleash, "drop by drop," upon the world. --75.2.21.90 11:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Popularity and voice in Japan
First, about Raiden's voice. I don't see it noted anywhere that Raiden's Japanese voice actor has a much deeper voice than Quinton Flynn. While we don't know for sure what the exact reason for the different voice is, we do know that Kojima did cast Horiuchi himself, and we know he didn't cast Flynn, which to me indicates that he had intended for Raiden to have a deep voice (again, that's my opinion, but it is definitely true that Kojima did handle the Japanese voice casting, while INTAC handles the English voice casting). Anyway, why isn't any of this (at least the fact that the Japanese Raiden has a much deeper voice) mentioned in the article (under "Character development", perhaps)?

I do see that this was mentioned in a deleted paragraph, but I think the fact that he has a deeper voice in the Japanese version should definitely be put under "Character development".

And regarding his popularity in Japan. I changed "Raiden was quite popular in Japan" to "Raiden was more well-received in Japan". You can see that in the 1UP.com interview Kojima merely says "there are actually many people in Japan who like Raiden", while he also says "But the fans ended up not liking him" (note that he says "the fans", and not "the Western fans"). Also note that on the Japanese Wikipedia, Raiden doesn't have his own article, while Solid Snake, Liquid, and Solidus, as well as Big Boss, Ocelot, Otacon, and Campbell all have their own articles. Quite popular? Hardly.

-71.80.31.42 08:12, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Ghost Babel connections
Raiden was first mentioned by his given name in the Game Boy Color version of Metal Gear Solid (titled Metal Gear: Ghost Babel in Japan). After finishing the game once, the player has the option of playing through VR simulated version of the game's thirteen stages, but with new goals and conditions added. If the player completes all these missions, a message from the supervisor, No. 4, will appear, addressing the player as Jack. This predates the release of Sons of Liberty by a year.

Do we have any cites that state that this is an intentional connection? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:25, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Tanker incident in VR?
If Raiden went through the Tanker incident in VR, why would he believe that Snake destroyed the tanker rather than Ocelot? For that matter, why would the Patriots let him learn this at all? --Pika132
 * One presumes that he went through an edited version. It isn't made clear. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:23, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with A Man in Black. If you remember, in the codec convo between Raiden and Snake after Ocelot has killed the president and Raiden has exited the room where the president was held, Raiden says "I've gone through the tanker in VR before" to which Snake replies "Yeah? Well I doubt it accurately simulates the events of that mission." This may indicate that the mission Raiden went through was changed in some way or another when compared to the true tanker event.

I believe it was a VR mission of Shadow Moses they where talking about in teh game. GamerSam 13:24, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Uncle? Nah
"Raiden's uncle is Solid Snake by law due to his relationship with Solidus Snake."

Solidus didn't officially adopt Raiden; he found him and took him under his care, training him to be one of his soldiers. So, Snake is not Raiden's uncle.

Although not by law, Solidus does think of Raiden as his son, and the only father Raiden knows of is Solidus. So, Snake is Raiden's uncle as much as Liquid is Solid's "brother".

Ya the above poster did clearly say, "law" so Indeed Snake is Raiden's Uncle and Naked snake is Raiden's grandpa lol Otaconx

I wish Snake was my uncle imagine how fun family reunions would be minus teh fact snake killed off half of them and Ocelot would have to be there because Liquid. GamerSam 13:31, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Though we don't know the legal identities of Solid and Liquid Snake and Raiden, it is likely that their legal identities were separate, which measn that Solid, Liquid and Solidus are not legally brothers. As previously stated, there is no indication that Solidus legally adopted Raiden, therefore he is not legally his father and it is impossible for Solid Snake to be Raiden's uncle.

Citation.
Can we get a source on this claim " It has been recently confirmed by Lead Character Designer: Yoji Shinkawa, that Raiden is indeed a Cyborg like Gray Fox, and the only things still human about him are apparently his head and spine. He commented that Raiden is "falling apart"" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.112.147.54 (talk) 00:59, 2 March 2007 (UTC).


 * It was in the official Kojima Report podcast thing with Yoji Shinkawa as a guest, relatively recently. You could probably find it with a quick search. WtW-Suzaku 21:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

What really happened to Raiden?
Recently i read to an article about raiden's uniform. It says that raiden cant live without the suit... My question is: What really happened to raiden? I looked everywhere to find an answer but unfortunately i found.. nothing.So?! Why he cant live without the suit? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.78.230.234 (talk) 15:26, 17 April 2007 (UTC).


 * We don't know yet. It will be revealed in Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots, which comes out later this year. (Myscrnnm 04:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC))

we do know from a interview that Raiden was apparently 'falling apart' and pretty much the only part of him that is still of his origional body is his head and spinal cord. so yah.. he definitely needs that cybernetic suit to live.--CloudHiro 08:37, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Raiden is a clone of Raikov, so like Snake he too is falling apart, but in a much more literal sense. That's why he needs the suit to live.

^No, Raiden is NOT a clone of Raikov. There is no relation between the two characters, Raikov was merely created as an in-joke between the fans and creators of the game. Also, we know Raiden has biological parents so he can't possibly be a clone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.107.180.32 (talk) 14:37, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

On an additional note, prior to "Big Shell" Raiden's/Jack's blood is removed and placed in cold storage and replaced with some sort of synthetic material. This information was revealed via codec transmission at the beginning of the "Big Shell" infiltration. The plan was to replace the blood via transfusion at the conclusion of the mission. However, the events that took place at the end of the mission complicated matters and it is assumed he never received the transfusion. This could explain why Raiden is "falling apart." Perhaps the synthetic was not designed to be used for an extended period of time. The video can be found on "Youtube."-Jack, 6 November 2007

Who deleted the Metal Gear Solid 3 part in apperences
I made a paragraph about the story that Raiden had in Metal gear solid 3 subsistence secret theatre! that took 15=20 minutes of my life to make.

Oxycite Refernace
I would edit this out completely. The artificial white blood is not likely a specific referance to Oxycite, and is much more likely a direct referance to Policenauts, where several characters have artificial white blood, usually referred to as "Milk Blood". This is one of several referances to Policenauts in the MG series, another of which being Tokugawa Heavy Industries itself, which is plastered all over Raiden's new exoskeleton. WtW-Suzaku 06:56, 29 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Either one is just speculation without a solid source †he Bread3000 07:35, 29 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Better to just remove the Oxycite thing altogether, then. WtW-Suzaku 19:46, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Jack and Frank's simlarities
If you take a look at the individual storylines of Frank Jaeger and Jack, you'll discover they are EXTREMELY similar.

Both of them were child soldiers, and were aparently so good that they both got nicknames for their deadly nature, Jack the Ripper and The Frank Hunter. Also, both were aparently in perfect soldier experiments, Frank's perfect soldier experiment explained in Portable Ops, and the side objective of the patriots in the Big Shell incident as Jack's. Both found some sort of salvation from these projects due to the current Snake (Naked and Solid). And the most oveous one, both becomeing a Cyborg Ninja.

I dont think this is a quincidence. Hideo Kojima must have purposely made these two individuals to be this similar for some reason. The question is, what is this reason? Perhaps it will be revealed in Guns of the Patriots.--CloudHiro 08:33, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Its obvious that Raiden is a replacement considering their pasts and the occurrences of events Kojima has in teh series to represent the cycle of Memes and times. Also the fact that the Patriots use Big Boss and Snakes experiences to base there scenarios for the S3. GamerSam 13:28, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe Raiden/Jack is a clone of Null/Grey Fox/Frank Jaeger. It would also explain why hes "falling apart". Snake is dying from a genetic abnormalty from the cloning process and so maybe Raiden is too but he chose to use a cyborg suit to prolong his life.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.96.36.33 (talk) 17:23, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Titanic thing
"Raiden's real name, Jack, was taken from the name of Leonardo DiCaprio's character in the movie Titanic. Concurrently, his love interest in the game is named (Rosemary) after Kate Winslet's character in the film.[3] His role and status were also likened by the designers to those of the jack in a deck of playing cards, with Fortune representing the Queen, Solidus Snake the King, and SEAL Team 10 the expendable "spot" cards."... ok what? Raiden wasn't even take from that. Some Survey thing,that why Raiden was made a character--Hitamaru 23:05, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that was how they decided to create a younger, more handsome character which turns out to be Raiden. The above is mentioning the origin of his name (Jack) not the character. In th real world, Hideo named him after Jack Dawson from Titanic. In the game world, Raiden is (most likely) named after Big Boss - most likely because of Solidus' obsession with Big Boss —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.7.182.253 (talk) 03:09, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
 * ... Huh,wut? 0.o i don't think kojima named him after a dude in titanic. That would say they name the jack dude in Pirates of Carribean after Titanic. It's jus fan fiction and some nutty titanic fan. even tho imo the movie was horrible.--Hitamaru 22:52, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Just because you hate the movie doesn't mean it's not true - and your Jack Sparrow argument wasn't the same thing. You see, Raiden's girlfriend is named Rose - Jack and Rose, known lovers from the Titanic movie. Hideo Kojima is known for his love of movies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.222.253.141 (talk) 12:27, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * MGS1 has Hal and Dave (2001: A Space Odyssey), and MGS2 has Jack and Rose (Titanic). It's definitely intentional. Philip Reuben (talk) 12:59, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Picture of New raiden
Can some get a pic of him and move the current raiden pic to the big shell chapter.--Hitamaru 22:52, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Why? The MGS2 Raiden is the original and came long before the MGS4 incarnation who is basically just Cyborg Ninja 3.0. Jonny2x4 (talk) 05:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Does Raiden know about the entire plan the whole time?
Does Raiden know about Ocelot/Big Boss's plan in MGS4? Does he know it was all fake so Snake would do what he did and stop the Patriots from stopping them? If so, it should be mentioned in the plot points. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Muisee (talk • contribs) 02:09, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Les Enfants Terribles
I think that something about "Les Enfants Terribles" should really be added. It has to do with everything about Raiden's past and his character. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.144.34.90 (talk) 02:02, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

No it doesn't.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.109.1.129 (talk) 03:19, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Snatcher?
"He may actually be the first official Snatcher in the Metal Gear universe." Am I just not getting the reference here or is this pure graffiti? When I searched for Snatcher all I found was some silly old game. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.94.26.214 (talk) 18:18, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but the phrase "silly old game" tickled me! ;) Snatcher was a game that Hideo Kojima developed after the original Metal Gear. It was a graphic adventure influenced by cyberpunk media (meaning primarily movies) like Blade Runner and Terminator, centered around cybernetic organisms (part robot, part organic, you know) killing and replacing humans, and was pretty good for the time. The Game included References to Metal Gear, most notable a small robot called Metal Gear Mk. II - back in 1988. After that Kojima went on to do Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake and went on to include references to Snatcher. If you call Kesler/ Kasler in the final match with Big Boss, he'll tell you, that Big Boss is rumored to have been revived by the snatcher program, where cybernatic parts replace vital organs. This was a complete in-joke, of course, but the guy making the MGS4 Database took this a bit too serious and incorporated in it, meaning that this is now unfortunately canon.87.174.211.241 (talk) 19:46, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

African American category
I`m sorry but where does it says he is of African descent? Zidane tribal (talk) 06:49, 31 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Only because he fought in the Liberian civil war, that`s not proof he is of African descent. Zidane tribal (talk) 06:53, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

another correlation to Raiden?
could his name have anything to do with the WW2 IJN Fighter aircraft the Mitsubishi J2M Raiden(Thunderbolt).....this aircraft was(and its probly just a coencidence) ...codenamed "Jack" by the allies in much the same way as the A6M Zero "Zeke" and G4M "Betty"

i just figure 2 Raiden/Jacks is either wierd or genius for hideo kojima..you decide lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_J2M

Tony Spike — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tony Spike (talk • contribs) 18:03, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

It's strongly implied in MGS2 that this is the source of Raiden's codename.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.253.39.7 (talk) 21:22, 24 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Already added with a source.Tintor2 (talk) 00:22, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes; in MGR:R, during a Codec conversation, I believe with either Kevin or Courtney, he confirms this as the origin of the name "Raiden". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.143.60.89 (talk) 09:14, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Raiden's Sacrifice in MGS4
Hi folks, I just wanted to ask, for the sake of having a good article, what's the deal with Raiden's sacrifice in MGS4? I haven't involved myself in the MGS world for a while, but I remember him dying (more or less), and I also remember, and have read here, that he needs that suit to live. And yet, doesn't MGS4 have a happy ending where he has his arm back and no suit and what not? How is this explained in the lore? In advance, I apologize if I added this wrong, but I'm no good with wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.92.133.164 (talk) 21:33, 24 April 2015 (UTC)


 * His "human suit" was just a disguise. He was this close to dying in MGS4 but made it out alive. The problem is that we cannot list everything he does per WP:PLOT. Regards.Tintor2 (talk) 00:05, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

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Removed text
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From Creation and appearance
(removed because: not about creation and appearance so off-topic for this section):

Composer Jamie Christopherson referred to a theme simply titled "Raiden" that is played in multiple parts of the story, starting from its menu screen. The theme is used as part of other theme songs like "It Has to Be This Way", "Collective Consciousness" and "The War Still Rages Within" which reference different parts of Raiden's characterization "It Has to Be This Way" is used as a theme that relates both Raiden and Steven Armstrong during the game's finale while "The War Still Rages Within" is considered as the former's "anthem" based on the character's life following the ending.

From Reception --> Critical reaction
(removed because it's not primarily about the subject character):

Capcom expressed concerns when adding a new protagonist to the series Devil May Cry in the 2008 installment Devil May Cry 4. Fearing negative feedback as in Sons of Liberty, producer Hiroyuki Kobayashi said Capcom aimed to make newcomer Nero fun to play like returning Dante and intended to make him stronger at some point.

 Baffle☿gab  02:41, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

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Gamechamp3000: Jack's First Appearance
I'm glad I'm not the only one that saw her video and immediately went to correct this article. Blackpeel (talk) 18:36, 1 May 2023 (UTC)


 * What? Still the first appearance is debatable considering he is not seen or specifically mentioned. There isn't really that much of a context to this section or even a reference to support it. Maybe if a developer confirmed it.Tintor2 (talk) 21:25, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
 * As is stated here (Metal Gear Solid (2000 video game) (this version), under "Game modes"), Ghost Babel contains VR missions where you play as Solid Snake.
 * Link to a video of the final special (VR) mission of Ghost Babel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pMSsi3_5ag
 * The last 30 seconds reveal that the player character is named Jack, having completed said VR training.
 * I'm under the impression this is Raiden's exact backstory (not sure, not a MGS fan), so I think it's safe to assume this is him. Swagtomomo (talk) 07:41, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Ghost Babel is not canon, it contradicts the events of Metal Gear Solid and in fact they did not even happen in Ghost Babel, as Snake is pulled out of his retirement in Alaska and meets Mei Ling for the first time as is the case in Metal Gear Solid. Furthermore, Raiden trained on a recreation of the Shadow Moses incident, the events of Metal Gear Solid. The video in question even admits this is an incredibly shaky theory, and ties it into the themes of Metal Gear Solid 2, deciding to believe these two Jacks are the same person. The only way that Jack is Raiden is if he's an alternate timeline version of him. Unless there's a way to officially confirm this, the page shouldn't be changed to reflect the (self-admitted)heavily flawed theory of a random youtuber. 2603:6010:AC21:93C4:30DD:F2D:AF28:E00C (talk) 20:10, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * It's far more canon than the game listed as his most recent appearance. If being a character in Bomberman is notable enough to be his official latest appearance, then his codename being directly stated in Ghost Babel is noteable enough to be listed as his first appearance. Blackpeel (talk) 21:12, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * "Jack", which is Raiden's real name, is what's said, not his codename. "Jack" is also the real name Naked Snake/Big Boss, and a common name to boot. Further, the character never appears on screen. I'm not sure about Bomberman being listed as his last appearance either, but at least you can confirm who it's meant to be based on by his name and appearance alone. Far more concrete then "This is probably meant to allude to him." 2603:6010:AC21:93C4:5061:9F2F:FD25:7601 (talk) 02:02, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * It's worthy of at least a mention somehwere in the article though, as a possible appearance. If this was indeed intended to be a reference to Raiden (as the game being non-canon doesn't necesssarily rule that out) the implications for the standard narrative of "Raiden's appearance was hidden before MGS2 released" are pretty noteworthy. Perhaps this would fit on MGGB's page more than Raiden's though? 2601:408:C404:9D5F:9953:B3D4:21F2:6CA0 (talk) 21:51, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Certainly. I personally think it was meant as a retroactive nod, knowing the things Hideo Kojima likes to do it would make sense. But there's no way to know for sure, so it's only speculation and if anything is added to either page that much should be stated. 2603:6010:AC21:93C4:CD4:3A16:2D93:2506 (talk) 21:37, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Given Ghost Babel and MGS2 would've been in development at the same time, it's more than likely it was at least an intentional nod. Until we get confirmation though, the best we can do is a vague "hey, maybe he was in it?" IcarusAvery (talk) 19:12, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * And yet it appears from the edit history that no, we can't even do that. Amazing to think this site's credibility can actually get any worse, but somehow it keeps managing it! 2600:1700:5DF:F600:C7B:3A9D:1565:4357 (talk) 01:13, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Raiden in Ghost Babel
this is commonly discussed, but many people say this isn't Raiden (despite the character playing as snake having the same name). I am aware of the common name, but c'mon, they were in development around the same time and its stated that Raiden went through snakes missions in VR, as well as the nameless character, who speaks to you all through out Ghost Babel, says something along the lines of "you will be in action very soon" (I cant remember exactly what he says, but its similar to this).Theres too many things adding up to just be a coincidence, right? 2A02:C7C:7A80:7500:F844:5A65:A37F:A155 (talk) 18:49, 15 February 2024 (UTC)


 * As you said, Jack is a common name. And in the series, it refers to at least two characters: Big Boss and Raiden. The problem is for Wikipedia standards, you need a verifiable source (WP:V) that definitively says "Raiden is THAT Jack" And Wikipedia doesn't allow original research per WP:NOR either Something129 (talk) 19:42, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I saw your undo of my edit, I fixed the sources to be in line with standards. I think it's important to include this information, as it is somewhat relevant, and not doing so will lead to further vandalism. Ludensg (talk) 20:09, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
 * This has already been addressed in the article. There's no need to change the official first appearance based on speculation. So long as this is up to dispute and interpretation, it can't be added as official information. Remember that a Wikipedia article has neutrality as its top priority. If one day Kojima, or another reputed source comments on this, then this can be re-considered. Ludensg (talk) 19:55, 15 February 2024 (UTC)


 * I say that since such franchise is know for tricking the audience, it would be better if we had confirmation Kojima or other staff members. Venom Snake was assumed to be the original Big Boss in all of the trailers until the Phantom Pain added a scene that revealed he had nothing to do with the other Snakes.Tintor2 (talk) 21:08, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree, there's also the fact that all of this speculation and debate might have been intended as part of a meta-game mechanic, which I think is why it was worthwhile to address it in the article. But yeah, setting this as official information without official confirmation seems a bit silly to me. Ludensg (talk) 05:04, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Sorry
My edits may be wrong sorry about that JustSomeNerdig (talk) 22:39, 17 February 2024 (UTC)


 * I'm removing your edits because of WP:NOR -- as mentioned above, Wikipedia requires verifiable sources, and a fan theory alone doesn't support that fact. Leafy46 (talk) 23:19, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
 * You also removed my edit too. I didn't add anything that isn't up to par with verifications. The sources don't state specifically that the fan theory is true, just that it exists. The things sourced there are things straight from the games, mainly screenshots and the script, so I think it should be back on the article. Ludensg (talk) 04:33, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree with Leafy46. Question of my own: What about this particular fan theory merits inclusion as opposed to others surrounding Raiden or even other characters? As for the source you used, what makes it reliable and appropriate to use here? Something129 (talk) 05:48, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Regarding why I regard this specific theory to be worthy of inclusion, besides the act of theorizing it itself being plausibly intended by the developers (given Kojima's track record, and the context in which both Ghost Babel and MGS2 were released), Raiden's subversive origin as a character is his most defining feature in the context of the series as a whole. So, this being a theory that's seemingly evident, but at the same time unprovable and in the air, is something worthy of note.
 * Raiden's entire reception as a character was dictated by Kojima's subversive act of including him without any warning. I argue that the fact that this is a lead that could potentially change the entire origin of the character itself, makes it worthy of inclusion. I believe that the fact that it's a theory, and that it still has significant traction more than two decades later, makes it notable enough to be included.
 * Regarding the sources, I updated them, now they are more direct, and reliable. You can see my previous comments on that. Ludensg (talk) 19:24, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh, and also because the theory would represent a previously undocumented appearance (which would be the first one, making it all the more important) of Raiden as a character. It's not a theory regarding any particular moment or relationship the character has, rather, it's a theory of the actual presence of the character with substantial foundations. Ludensg (talk) 19:45, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Right, as Something129 said above. The two sources you included were:
 * 1. "The Snake Soup", which appears to be a fansite akin to a blog (thus failing WP:BLOGS for reliability)
 * 2. The script of Metal Gear Solid 2, which doesn't back up the claim that it's *this* Jack which is found in Metal Gear: Ghost Babel. In other words, this is *you* making the connection, failing WP:NOR which "includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources."
 * As neither of these are reliable, the fact is not up to par with verification standards. I'd take a look at WP:GAMESOURCES to see what is considered reliable, and feel free to re-add the information if you can find some research directly from one of those sources! Leafy46 (talk) 17:10, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, if you open up the website, you'd see that what I'm referencing are the actual games themselves, as in The Snake Soup there are some screenshots of the moment where a reference to a character named Jack happens, plus this website is a source that shows that there is, in fact, a trend of people theorizing that there is a connection. And in the script, it shows that Raiden's backstory, in fact, deals with simulating Snake's missions on VR. No original conclusions, or research, have been made in my edit.
 * Given the introduction of Raiden as an informational (or dis-informational) stunt in the original MGS2, I think it is worthwhile mentioning that the theory exists. I never claimed that it is true. And by the very edit history (vandalism) of this article, and the sources I used, I think it is undeniable that a. it exists, and b. it is relevant for the content of this page.
 * I will add it again once I find a better source for the Ghost Babel screenshots, and perhaps more "convincing" documentation of the trends.
 * In summary, this wasn't *me* making the connection. This was me showcasing that there is a trend of people making the connection. In that sense, a fan site would be a good source, as what is being talked about isn't factual information about the games per se, rather, the fans' reception of the games. Even if it were a blog, it is a primary source documenting its own reaction. Ludensg (talk) 17:25, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * ABOUTSELF Ludensg (talk) 17:26, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Once again, I'm inclined to believe your additions as per is original research. You are taking various lines from a video game and drawing a conclusion not explicitly mentioned in the source, which goes against WP:SYNTH. I understand you believe that including a blog is fair game, but it is once again not because of WP:BLOGS: if its only source is a blog, the information is not of enough notability to hold its own. Ditto to the IGN link: while IGN on its own is reliable, the source you included is a user-submitted transcription of the game's script, failing WP:GAMESOURCES. The last source, Game Informer, doesn't even include the quote you've attributed to it, so I'm frankly not sure why it's there. Please, please, please check your sources. If you're quoting the game itself without a reliable  source backing up that your theory is indeed widely believed, then it can't be proven that there is a "trend of people" who really believe it.Leafy46 (talk) 20:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The source from Game Informer backs up the fact that it is a connection made by many, not by me. I am not the one synthesizing this information, I am just including references to the original games in order for a reader to understand where the connection is being made, plus sources showcasing the result of a non-negligible amount of people making this connection. If you need even another source I'll find it. Ludensg (talk) 21:20, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm also having trouble seeing the connection made by the Game Informer article. I'll assume the last section is what you're getting at and that discusses "Jack" in context of Metal Gear Solid Mobile and not Ghost Babel. Otherwise, the article does not discuss anything relating to fan theories. Perhaps you can provide a quote of a section saying so in this thread
 * As for Snake Soup, their about page specifically states that Wikipedia doesn't consider them reliable. (I'm aware that gaming journalism outlets do cite them, but that's for their articles, which become secondary sources that are appropriate for Wikipedia). Something129 (talk) 22:06, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * As for the Game Informer article, this is what I quoted: " Despite being an apocryphal Metal Gear entry, Ghost Babel feels far more faithful to the guiding vision of the series than any other spinoff title... or even the technically canonical Portable Ops, for that matter. And while the plot can't possibly integrate into the Metal Gear saga's storyline due to all its contradictions and conflicts, it nevertheless offers a secret hook to canonicity: At the end of the optional VR bonus missions, a cryptic voice refers to the player as "Jack" — nonsense at the time, but following Metal Gear Solid 2 (which arrived the following year), it would seem to suggest that Ghost Babel ultimately amounted to virtual reality training for MGS2 protagonist Raiden. That game's script makes it clear that Raiden "relived" Snake's previous adventures through VR, and even makes a direct reference to events of Ghost Babel amidst references to a number of other VR sims. ".
 * It talks about the Babel-Raiden connection specifically, I don't know what part you read though, this has nothing to do with MGS Mobile. It even states the theory as a fact, which isn't completely unreasonable, but is still very simplistic.
 * As for Snake Soup, again, I know it is an unreliable source. But I used it in accordance with Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published or questionable sources as sources on themselves. It is documenting itself, not as a verification of the theory being true, just as verification of the theory being discussed by the community as a whole for an extended period of time. Ludensg (talk) 04:10, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
 * That quote does not appear in the Game Informer article you cited in your previous edit. Is that quote possibly from another source and you cited the wrong source? Something129 (talk) 05:28, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I found your quote in a VG247 article, it appears as if you've cited the incorrect source. Looking at it, it's passed my check for a reliable source! It appears on WP:GAMESOURCES (both it and USgamer), and the author appears to be reliable (being the former editor-in-chief at USgamer). I think it's a solid source for proving a connection, so congratulations!
 * However, I personally would still argue this fact wouldn't qualify due to WP:UNDUE. Considering the amount of research, the fact there's only one reliable source which mentions this theory, and in a single, tangential paragraph at that, makes me believe this is a case of WP:FRINGE. According to that guideline, "For a fringe view to be discussed in an article about a mainstream idea, independent reliable sources must discuss the relationship of the two as a serious and substantial matter." -- one paragraph is hardly substantial, even if it suggests a relationship exists, and note that "sources" is plural here. (On a side note, I believe you're misinterpreting WP:ABOUTSELF: you would need to be writing an article about The Snake Soup for your article to qualify under that.)
 * In the end though, this is outside of my realm. All I can say is that yes, your source would be fine if you choose to include it in the article. I would just be very careful with how you word it if you choose to do so, especially given that the source is so authoritative (e.g. you can't say "Some people believe" nor offer an alternate viewpoint because the article doesn't explicitly say there are "other people" involved -- hence why I suggest that it's a fringe theory which doesn't hold up on its own, but I digress for lack of knowledge about that guideline). Leafy46 (talk) 15:07, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I guess somewhere in my clipboard I must have pasted the wrong link when citing the sources, my bad! I'll think of what would be the best, if any, approach to do with this, thanks anyway for engaging with me on it. Ludensg (talk) 16:48, 19 February 2024 (UTC)