Talk:Rain Dove

Pronoun
People have been changing the pronouns in this article to they and she back and forth, and sometimes to he. In this TEDx talk, Rain Dove states, "If there are any journalists in the audience and you're wondering, 'Oh shit, what pronoun do I use for this person?', a pronoun is just a sound for me, and all I'm listening for in that sound is positivity. So be creative. You can even call me it if you want to." Inspiring, but unfortunately not quite helpful to Wikipedians.

I find she/her just fine in this case. In addition to the above quote, these interview articles refer to Dove by female pronouns, and AFAIK Dove, though non-conforming in expression, hasn't explicitly said they identify as male or non-binary. The use of they by Rose McGowan, Dove's partner, in this statement is indeed something to consider, although she also sporadically uses it to refer to Asia Argento, whom she otherwise refers to by female pronouns throughout. At any rate, we should settle on one and be consistent. Nardog (talk) 12:23, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
 * This NYT article states that “Rain Dove prefers nongendered pronouns”. (In the article they're also themselves quoted referring other persons – notably Asia Argento – as ‘they’, so this might mean that they usually call every person ‘they’. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PLJ (talk • contribs) 20:35, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that is a perfect source! It is interesting Dove was saying in 2017 there is no preferred pronoun in the TEDx talk and "I talk about a world in which we don't use 'he' or 'she' pronouns but I still find myself using them" in the Yahoo Style article (it seems like both Dove and McGowan are deliberately mixing pronouns when referring to people to subvert the connotations pronouns carry, which I'm all for—English sucks when it comes to personal pronouns), but obviously the most recent interview (NYT) must take priority. Nardog (talk) 00:30, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:52, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Rain dove.jpg

Is Rain Dove non-binary?
I noticed Rain Dove is in both Category:People with non-binary gender identities and Category:21st-century American actresses (as opposed to its gender-neutral parent category, where e.g. Asia Kate Dillon is, and into which I would consider moving Dove). I also noticed the text of our article only says that they use "non-gendered pronouns", but not that they're non-binary. I poked through some news sources: [//www.advocate.com/women/2018/8/28/who-rain-dove-nonbinary-model-center-controversy the headline here] calls Dove "non-binary" but the body and its quotes aren't that clear, and [//www.theguardian.com/fashion/2018/sep/10/every-step-i-take-is-a-defiance-rain-dove-on-modelling-asia-argento-and-gender-capitalism this] says Dove rejects the label "gender-non-binary". [//www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/02/15/rain-dove-come-out-non-binary/ This], OTOH (together with the other sources) does seem to suggest Dove does belong in Category:People with non-binary gender identities in a descriptive sense (being someone with a gender identity which is not a binary gender identity, even if not one that they formally term "non-binary"). It would probably be useful to add some prose to the article body about this, if there is sufficient sourcing. -sche (talk) 05:33, 20 April 2019 (UTC)


 * OK, I see the dilemma here. The Guardian article is more recent than NYT, and both are more reliable than Pink News, which has made mistakes in this area in the past. After reading the reliable third-party sources, I looked at Rain Dove's official social media for any clarifying statements. This is useful. It's very close to what is in the articles, but perhaps a bit more nuanced. As are other art pieces on there. Rain Dove is making very similar points to to the statements Leslie Feinberg made about pronouns and gender.
 * There are many people who share Rain Dove and Feinberg's perspective on pronouns and gender; though, as it's a more laid-back position, demanding thought, flexibility, and active participation on the part of the viewer/reader/writer, it receives less coverage due to people with this position being, well, more laid-back about it. Given Rain Dove's statements.... I think the categories are best moved up to gender-neutral. In the body text, I don't think it has to be consistent. But times when I've argued for this on other articles where the person did not have preferred pronouns, no one seemed to grasp it or accept it. So, I'd standardize to "they" unless it's in a direct quote. I think it's fine to leave gendered pronouns in quotes. Maybe anyone who wants to edit war over pronouns here can learn to relax a bit on it from this person's example? I'm going to go in and make some tweaks, per the sources and our discussion here. Best, -  CorbieV  ☊ ☼ 18:41, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Video about untrue bio statements
The NBC/Youtube video that is now linked is rather long and I haven't had a chance to watch it. I used the NBC article to cite the changes that were added. It would be helpful if someone could watch the entire thing to see if there are other statements in this article that have now been retracted or updated by the subject of this BLP. If the video is used and no third-party source can be used in addition, it might be best to just remove the claim without comment. If it seems best to say that the statement has been retracted, and the video is the only source, please use timestamps so others can verify. Thanks. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 23:51, 19 December 2019 (UTC)