Talk:Rainbow Night

Merge?
Unless I'm mistaken, so far Margot (activist) is mainly known for her role in these events. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  06:10, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi, perhaps you know better than me, but it seems that Margot has her own fame now. Everyone knows her name in Poland now. She seems a bit like Stormé DeLarverie, who helped spark the Stonewall Riots in the US. I wouldn't merge yet. Malick78 (talk) 10:44, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes Buidhe, she is mostly know for her role in these events. She might be notable later since she was arrested and who knows how the things develop, but for know I think you are right about the merger. (Sorry Malick78) - GizzyCatBella  🍁  08:03, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I support the merger for now. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:08, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Oppose: Margot has been involved in many more activities and organisations, they attack the Parliament, Mr Polanski and Gazeta Wyborcza, inter alia: https://premium.wprost.pl/10352676/czego-nie-mowi-sie-o-margot-udzial-w-akcji-pomazania-sciany-sejmu-protest-przeciwko-polanskiemu.html

Zezen (talk) 10:55, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Tks for the article, that is something sufficient and sufficiently different that merging no longer makes sense. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  11:30, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Arbitrary naming
The events described in the article are not known as Polish Stonewall. The vast majority of media coverage simply described the event. Only a few media reports suggested that it might resemble Stonewall riots. The title of the article is the author's arbitrary biased choice based on very few media suggestions. Wide media coverage did not call these events as Polish Stonewall. In many sentences there is bias and POV. H.Rabiega (talk) 18:05, 24 August 2020 (UTC) Even if it is illegal to insult the police and block them from performing their duties, we should not confuse civil disobedience with "violence". (t &#183; c)  buidhe  01:07, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * If you have a different idea of how to name the article, the way to do that is start a WP:RM. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  01:03, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I reverted your edit about the video. In the Balkan Insight source it says "In its public statement on the events, the Warsaw police said it arrested, “48 of the most aggressive” people who were involved in a collective attack on the police van carrying Margot. The police also released a video entitled “Through the eyes of the police”, as a means to justify its actions. The video shows two protesters lying on the police car while others try to form a chain around it, and a separate scene of an activist shouting abuse at the police. There is no image that could be construed as protesters actually attacking the police."

Name
I have concerns that the article is using the name "Polish Stonewall" which is not commonly used in Poland or abroad. I am not denying that some sources called it such, but I think most just call them with a generic name such as "7 August 2020 protests in Warsaw" or such. I am not sure if we should adopt the "Polish Stonewall" name. I have no objections to saying that some have called the protests such, but it is not a universal name. PS. After a bit of digging, I linked this article to an Polish Wikipedia article: pl:Protesty w Polsce w 2020 roku (which has a very generic name, too generic most likely, as "Polish protests of 2020"). Commons category at commons:Category:August 2020 LGBTQIA Protests in Poland likely is a good compromise. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 05:07, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I concur. While some sources labelled the event this way, it is not a common name. Besides, arbitrarily comparing it to American Stonewall event smells heavily of cultural colonialism, through American lens.--Darwinek (talk) 12:32, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I would support "August 2020 LGBT protests in Poland", since the demonstrations also occurred in other Polish cities. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  02:57, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
 * A quick thought: what if they continue in September? Summer/fall are a bit overlapping, maybe just "2020 LGBT protests in Poland"? I don't think there were any major ones earlier this year...? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 05:39, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Well it depends on how you define protest. For example, the June 2020 demonstration outside of the president's residence, is that a protest? I would say so. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  23:25, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, protests have died down since Margot was released last week. Any new protests are a separate event that probably needs to be in a different article. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  23:26, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

FYI there was another "Polish Stonewall" some years back, making it more confusing:
 * The closure (of his club) was met with protests, which came to be labelled as "the Polish Stonewall".[3] - Krystian Legierski. Zezen (talk) 16:59, 31 August 2020 (UTC)


 * I agree with Piotrus, "August 2020 LGBTQIA Protests in Poland" (per Wikipedia Commons) is good name. Subtropical -man  ( ✉  | en-2 ) 23:18, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * , Any sources which use this name? Why do you think LGBTQIA is more common than LGBT? (t &#183; c)  buidhe  23:24, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * This is not proper name, there need not be sources for that exact name. The name can describe the phenomenon. However, we can to discuss to use word LGBT or LGBTQIA, based on the sources. Subtropical -man  ( ✉  | en-2 ) 23:47, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I find this "Polish Stonewall" name also problematic...per your comments - GizzyCatBella  🍁  22:30, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Ok, so moving forward, would there be any objections to moving this to August 2020 LGBT protests in Poland? I am seeing consensus above that this would be a better name. Are we all good with a move?-PS. LGBT is more common, but it is worth noting that Margot self identifas in the QIA range, I forget which one. It was IIRC in her GW interview. -Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 00:31, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
 * It's ok, "August 2020 LGBT protests in Poland" is good name. Subtropical -man  ( ✉  | en-2 ) 13:31, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

'7 August mass arrest' section
There are some inaccuracies in this section: There are more of such inaccuracies that could be prevented by using neutral sources. Wostr (talk) 23:25, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Margot was waiting at Campaign Against Homophobia's office in Warsaw to be arrested, but the police initially said that she would not be arrested. – the Police officers that were present at that place were from squads responsible for patrol duty and crowd control. No one at that moment knew that Margot was to be arrested, as no one knew about the arrest warrant.
 * before another group of plainclothes police tried to arrest Margot. – Margot was arrested by high ranking Police officer wearing an uniform, he was accompanied by some plainclothes Police officers.
 * and an Italian legal resident who happened on the demonstration and was arrested while watching it – that is a rumor that has not been confirmed later.
 * active participation in an illegal gathering – that is not entirely true: active participation in an gathering whose participants commit a violent attack on a person or property, there is nothing about illegal in the Criminal Code.
 * The information is all sourced to reliable sources. If you believe it is "inaccurate", you need to present sources that are equally reliable and contradict the information. Also, whether a source is considered by you to be "neutral" has no relation to whether it is a reliable source for Wikipedia, see WP:Biased.
 * Also, there is no evidence at present that an actual violent attack was committed by the protestors, see the Balkan Insight piece. No one has been convicted of any crime and WP:BLP applies. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  23:34, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. Using sources that are biased as only sources for some information is not a good way. I'm not an en.wiki user, I can't and I won't edit this article. I'm just saying that there is a room for improvement. I don't see a report of National Preventive Mechanism that could be contrasted with Ministry of the Interior and Police statements and reports (at least two statements at parliamentary committees). Most sources are from news websites, many of which (like 'oko.press', 'onet.pl', 'gazeta.pl') are biased or of questionable reliability. Wostr (talk) 19:30, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * You could argue that all sources are biased, but on the other hand, Gazeta Wyborcza is probably the most reliable Polish news source at present. The Ministry of the Interior and police have an incentive to portray this incident in a certain way or, potentially, to lie about it (WP:COISOURCE), while it does not necessarily enjoy a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. In contrast, the ombudsman is independent, enjoys a very good reputation, and has a mission to tell the truth about state actions. See also WP:FALSEBALANCE. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  19:49, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * You do know the difference between gazeta.pl news service and a newspaper Gazeta Wyborcza/wyborcza.pl? Unfortunately, you are probably not fully aware of the social and political situation in Poland, if you say that "Gazeta Wyborcza is probably the most reliable Polish news source at present". There are currently few (if any) nationwide news sites or daily press that are not politically biased. It is an open secret that Gazeta Wyborcza is oriented towards the left, while publications such as Gazeta Polska are directed towards the right side of the political scene. This makes it extremely difficult nowadays to write a neutral text about social or political events based on news services and the daily press. We are aware of this at pl.wiki and try to carefully use this type of sources while writing about social or political events, sometimes even pointing out that certain information comes from a given website or newspaper or by contrasting opinions from different, opposite sources.
 * I think you missed one word from my statement above the National Preventive Mechanism report (or, more generally, the Polish Ombudsman report) and about statements of Polish Ministry of the Interior and Polish Police. That word, a key word, was contrasted. There are two ways this article could be written. In one, there is a (i) description of events, (ii) description of reactions from both non-governmental organisations or civic institutions (like the Polish Ombudsman) and official government institutions — you cannot deny that the reactions or statements of government institutions are worth noting for a full understanding of both the course of the described events and the overall situation in that period — (iii) description of international reactions, (iv) description of social, legal and political consequences. In this way, the reader would have a fairly complete picture of the situation that would allow him to form an opinion on the subject. Unfortunately, some points are missing and right now we have a selection of sources and content that directs the reader to a specific point of view. Wostr (talk) 17:31, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I think you missed one word from my statement above the National Preventive Mechanism report (or, more generally, the Polish Ombudsman report) and about statements of Polish Ministry of the Interior and Polish Police. That word, a key word, was contrasted. There are two ways this article could be written. In one, there is a (i) description of events, (ii) description of reactions from both non-governmental organisations or civic institutions (like the Polish Ombudsman) and official government institutions — you cannot deny that the reactions or statements of government institutions are worth noting for a full understanding of both the course of the described events and the overall situation in that period — (iii) description of international reactions, (iv) description of social, legal and political consequences. In this way, the reader would have a fairly complete picture of the situation that would allow him to form an opinion on the subject. Unfortunately, some points are missing and right now we have a selection of sources and content that directs the reader to a specific point of view. Wostr (talk) 17:31, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Name (again)
I want to point out that currently there is a name for this event that is used by various polish sources. The sources usually call it "Tęczowa Noc" (rainbow night in english) [1 ][2 ][3 ][4 ][5 ][6 ][7 ]. I this we might consider renaming the article since it's shorter. Matinee71 (talk) 18:05, 12 August 2022 (UTC)