Talk:Raine, comtesse de Chambrun

Biography assessment rating comment
The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Thesocialistesq/M.lesocialiste 06:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Widows

A widow who re-marries loses any title or precedence she gained by her previous marriage, and is not recognised as having claim to bear the title of her deceased husband (e.g. at a coronation or other State ceremonial the widow of a Peer would not be summoned as a Peeress if she had subsequently married a commoner and, if having married a Peer of a lesser degree than her former husband, would only be recognised by the rank acquired by her last marriage.). See:- http://www.debretts.co.uk/etiquette/correct_forms_of_address.html#W

--194.32.41.11 09:53, 12 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Was her third husband a substantive 'peer' though. French noble titles and their practices are very different from the British Peerage system.  Was her third husband the actual title-holder?  Was he Comte X de Chambrun, or was he "X, Comte de Chambrun"  I've seen both in papers.

Yes, he was the substantive title-holder.--Westminsterboy 17:49, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Burke's lists her husband as Comte Jean-François de Chambrun and not the actual title-holder. Therefore, should this page not be at Comtesse Raine de Chambrun'? Craigy (talk) 16:50, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Her ex-husband is the younger of two sons of their father, known as the marquis de Chambrun. Since French titles (of nobility; royalty is different) descend by primogeniture, he cannot legally bear the title of "count" because his elder brother, Charles, also uses that title. However, the Pineton Chambruns are a genuinely noble family, and it is the accepted custom in France for the untitled members of titled noble families to assume a titre de courtoisie. Although hereditary titles are still recognized in French law, titres de courtoisie are not and never have been so recognized. But they are subject to rules, just as are British courtesy titles, although the rules were always less stringent, and have gone unmonitored since the French monarchy was abolished in 1870, so abuse is frequent. But one relevant rule in this case is that the title is used as a prefix to the first name, rather than as a suffix (i.e. Comte Jean-Francois de Chambrun may be correct; Jean-Francois, Comte de Chambrun would imply that the title is legally held by the primogeniture heir, and would therefore be incorrect). Raine's husband uses his courtesy title in the correct form. Lethiere 04:19, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

French Form
I think Wiki convention is to be clear at all times, ie common English usage, hence Comtesse de Chambrun not comtesse de Chambrun (French form). Mowens35 21:10, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Reclaiming Titles (However Incorrect)
I have added this as a footnote: Many other titled ladies have attempted and succeeded at reclaiming previous titles, at least as a matter of social form. Winston Churchill's mother, Jennie Jerome, for instance, reverted to her first married style (Lady Randolph Churchill) between marriages and tended to use it professionally as a writer and beauty expert whatever her current marital status. Similarly, the 20th-century social figure Maureen Guinness preferred to to be styled Maureen, Marchioness of Dufferin and Ava, despite her subsequent marriage to and divorce from a judge. Mowens35 21:24, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Merger?
I don't know about the relevant info, etc but the form of "Comtesse Raine de Chambrun" is not a form that is used in English. The title should be "Countess Raine de Chambrun". Charles 02:39, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I took the liberty of changing the other article's name to Countess Raine de Chambrun and have updated the merger tags accordingly. Charles 02:42, 13 August 2006 (UTC)