Talk:Raistlin Majere/Archive 1

Some comments
Several comments while cleaning this article up:

The Kingdom of Ergoth enacted laws that Mages be allowed one bladed implement for their safety due to the unique ways of        magic in the world of Krynn.

Is this a fact in the books, or just something invented? From what I remember, there are two different explanations given in the books, and both are written in the Magius article. If this is yet another explanation, and it can be verified (in example, found in a book reference), I think it should be moved along with the two explanations already appearing in Magius article to the Wizards of High Sorcery article, in a new section (like "Weapon handling"). Otherwise, it should be deleted.

that's a fact, it was in eother 1 of Raistlin's life stories. ** (ChildOfMorella 18:53, 27 February 2006 (UTC))

but also the vast knowledge that Fistandantilus had accumulated over the course of his one-thousand year lifespan

Caramon suffered grief as a result of his twin's fate, and later, as he was preparing to take his own life, had a vision of        Raistlin's spirit being rescued and given peace by Paladine.

Please, add a reference to the highlighted facts. If they cannot be verified, they should be deleted. Finally, I suggest merging a whole subsection (about Palin's Test) in Palin Majere article, since it has more to do with Palin Majere than with Raistlin. Please give opinions about this marging idea here -- ReyBrujo 05:50, 26 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I merged the information from Palin's test into the Palin Majere article. I will clean up this article later, expect to find it heavily shortened (remember, this is supposed to be an introduction about Raistlin Majere, not a full rip from the series). -- ReyBrujo 03:30, 1 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't actually own the books (I checked them out from the library), so I might not be the best person to speak here, but the thing with Caramon is real, it's in the books (And it's by Weis and Hickman, it's not in the spin-offs). Caramon's attempt to take his own life is described in detail in 'The Second Generation' before Palin's test -- I remember that fairly vividly. I can look up the exact quote later. Eeblefish 04:43, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Also should be noted that there is a much older publishing of these books from about 20 years back in which there are several story line differances- these books however are no longer in print- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Archon9000 (talk • contribs).

The comment about Paladin is also from the Second Generation, again by Weis and Hickman. I don't remember the exact story, but I think it's the one with Steel Brightblade. If not, then it's the one with Palin's test. 128.12.73.36 07:12, 4 November 2007 (UTC) Arjun 15:09, 18 July 2008 (UTC)Teribly Sorry, I do not know proper formatting, but he^ is right, I just read it,It is in "The Legacy", the one with Palin's Test from second generation.15:09, 18 July 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.15.252.177 (talk)

Comment
domszanto - Picky point, but I'm not sure that Raistlin's lung complaint was confirmed as TB - it could have been asthma, emphysema, etc. - would this be better just listed as "breathing difficulties" or "breathing problems"?

NONE of the books say he had TB. NONE say he had asthma, emphysema, of anything like that. They just say he had a wheezing breath, and a raspy, nasty cough. ** (ChildOfMorella 18:55, 27 February 2006 (UTC))


 * Raistlin frequently states that his chronic coughing and poor health were both a result of the "sacrifice he made for his magic". Later books delve into this further by saying that he gave part of his life force to Fistandantilus in exchange for the power to defeat the dark elf during his Test. His condition is magical, not medical. It's not TB or asthma, and certainly not emphysema. I don't see Raistlin as the type to be chain-smoking Marlboros. Wait, actually I CAN see that. --Soulforge19 07:48, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Not true. If you read Soulforge, I believe it's Par-Salian who says that it was the poisoned blade of the third Dark Elf that finally shatters his weak health. --Ostermana 04:05, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Of course none of the books say he has TB per say (it IS a fictional universe), but the symptoms are very much the same; to anyone who wanted to know what his sickness was like TB would be a good enough comparison. And as his sickness is much more than just breathing problems, or wheezing breath, or raspy cough (he has trouble exerting himself, he often coughs up blood, etc...) Maybe it would be best to say that he exhibits TB-like symptoms. --(Dainsleif

No, it wouldn't. It's stated repeatedly his symptoms stem from his taking the test. Now what is in dispute (depending on the sources) is exactly WHAT is was during the test that caused his last known living condition. Sardonicone 22:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

In Soulfourge, he just has weak lungs as a child. During his test, he's stabbed in the back by a dark Elf. It's implied that a lung is punctured. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.174.83.232 (talk) 04:11, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

summary of story
This article is like a summary of the story. If someone wanted to read these books, they wouldn't have to they could just read this article! ** (ChildOfMorella 19:07, 27 February 2006 (UTC))


 * I don't agree. Having read most (but not all) of the Dragonlance books, this article, while being very thorough, hardly even begins to crack the surface of who Raistlin is. --Soulforge19 11:30, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I concur with ChildOfMorella, this is pretty much a summary. Sure, not the entire series, but a substantial part. The entire article should be surrounded with 'spoiler' tags. - Moe 11:48, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

editing
I edited and reworded alot. ** (ChildOfMorella 20:56, 27 February 2006 (UTC))

the writing is weak, it'd be much better if someone rewrote this.

THIS IS THE FIRST PROBLEM I SEE --"Raistlin Majere was created by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.205.253.214 (talk) 08:12, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * And that's a problem, because...? 67.175.176.178 (talk) 12:12, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Well let's see if it violates the copyright first.................one thing at  a   TIME

BTW...are you aptulutley shure u no who the creators of dese carACTORs are???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.205.253.214 (talk) 07:16, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

...this might be better understood over a table..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.205.253.214 (talk) 07:10, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation
I would be interested in the official pronunciation of this name. I always pronounced it Rais-lin, but was recently told it is pronounced "Roz-lin" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.77.110.142 (talk • contribs).
 * I always took the name to be pronoucned Raist-lin, the "t" is not silent (I believe) because of the fact that his nickname is Raist, not Rais. DoomsDay349 03:28, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I also believe it's pronounced 'Raist-lin', for the reasons mentioned by DoomsDay349. The person that told you that it's pronounced 'Roz-lin', is a fool! - Moe 11:48, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

It is pronounced Raist-lin, just like it is spelled, by Weis, Hickman, and everyone who I met when I played him for TSR in 1996. The t isn't silent, but it isn't stressed, either. Almost like Rais'-lin. MikeSims 04:04, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

On that note - the name is meant to sound like "wasting man" whereas Caramon is a play on "caring man" - at least according to MW's notes in the annotated chronicles... Raist-Lin definatley sounds more like "wasting man" [[User:scrugbyhk|scrugbyhk]


 * thank you all, esp. MikeSims. That's pretty much how I thought it was meant to be, I just didn't know how to describe, as you said, "not silent but not stressed" so Rais-lin was the best I could come up with. So I guess I had it right all along, that's good! And Scrugbyhyhk, thanks for the additional information about the names... I think that would be good to incorporate into the article (near the top, IMO) --this comment left by 208.53.104.68 20:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)amyanda2000 amyanda 20:49, 14 August 2007 (UTC)amyanda2000

On another reference, the parody name of him in Godzillalance was Waistline Majorway. MikeSims (talk) 10:43, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I saw the Dragonlance cartoon. That was horrid, but at least you can hear the pronunciations. Honestly though, they pronounced Kitiara a little much like Kitty-Yara. Seemed funny. MikeSims (talk) 21:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Parentage
I had thought that the twins' father was dead or gone prior to them being born. Raist23m
 * No, their father died in an accident when they were teenagers. Their mother died three or four days afterwards. -- ReyBrujo 19:07, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Their father did indeed die in an accident. It is listed in Soulforge. Their mother outlived him by much more than a few days - again. Details in Soulforge. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by EntropyJim (talk • contribs) 17:05, 21 February 2007 (UTC).

Vandalism
I have had to correct vandalism of the character name; Tanis Half-Elven. The name was changed malisiously to 'Srounger'. I want to ban the caulprit but I do not know how. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tenda (talk • contribs).

Silly me
I am sorry for my mistake I jumped the gun when I saw he was the leader of a party. Obviously not the party i was thinking of.

Still, good series of books my lifelong favorites. You would think I would know characters by now. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tenda (talk • contribs).
 * No problem at all. After all, one of the guidelines in Wikipedia is to be bold. -- ReyBrujo 19:05, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Cite references
Is it safe to remove the cite references tag since there's many references now? ddcc 22:59, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The references have been there even before the tag was put. I believe people want more "online" references. -- ReyBrujo 23:04, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Raist Vs. Fist
"...he confronted Fistandantilus and the two fought for supremacy. Raistlin won..." It is never clearly stated who won, only that both of them continued to exist, somehow, in the new body. Cite resources, or omit that part. Raistlin8r 10:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Per the Legends trilogy, Raistlin defeated and consumed Fistandantilus. Note that after the Legends trilogy Raistlin had no more trouble with Fistandantilus. -- ReyBrujo 21:45, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Going by memory here, but I beleive that in the Annotated Legend Triilogy that there is an annotation that indicates it is not clear who won in that series. According to that same annotation later works affrim that Raistlin was the winner (I keep thinking they reffered to either The Lgaacy or the War of Souls trilogy). Argel1200 (talk) 22:53, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The new "Dragons of the Hourglass Mage" novel pretty much settles this one. Raistlin defeated Fistandantilus. Thekithless (talk) 10:44, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * My brother once explained to me the existance of an artifact (The Mage's Bloodstone?) which allowed Fist, then Raist after he stole it, to consume/absorb the souls of magically active individuals so as to add the victims powers to their own. Fist supposedly had a school set up to lure powerful mage students into his grasp. Unfortunately, I have no idea where I might find a reference to any of this. I think he got it from an AD&D boxed adventure, but I don't know that.--Ostermana 07:35, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It is explained, if I recall correctly, at Time of the Twins, when Caramon goes to kill Fistandantilus, finds Raistlin instead, and he explains how he was able to take Fistandantilus' place in history. -- ReyBrujo 07:40, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The artifact is called the Bloodstone of Fistandantilus. It's a soul-sucker. I had a costume one that was darkgreen with blood red and gold flecks in it. It was about 2 inches long and a cabachon with a silver fitting and chain. MikeSims 04:06, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I clearly remember that the bloodstone uses the CHA stat to determine whose personality would dominate the new body. It is not clear who really won the duel, but Astinus makes it a point to call Raistlin "Fistandantilus". Magnuskrauss 06:46, 10 September 2007 (UTC)magnuskrauss

When the wraiths view the battle through the victor's eyes, they don't see Raistlin's hourglass eyes in the loser, so Raistlin may have won. I don't remember exactly when Astinus calls Raistlin Fistandantilus, but maybe he did so because Raistlin wasn't supposed to be present at that time. If Astinus were to record Raistlin as Raistlin, how would Raistlin read Fistandantilus in the future? I'm pretty sure it happened when Raistlin went to the Tower of High Sorcery of Palanthas and didn't find the Gate to the Abyss there. He went to Astinus to find out where it was and learned that he had to follow Fistandantilus' doomed path to reach it in Skullcap, or wherever. So I think he had to be referred to as Fistandantilus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.3.147.82 (talk) 09:30, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Good point. Too bad those stinkin' wraiths didn't have half a brain to even CHECK whether or not the eyes were in the shape of hour-glasses. So +1 vote to Raistlin winning. at least now i understand why Astinus keeps calling him "Fistandantilus". Astinus has a wicked sense of humor. He keeps calling Raistlin that to call attention to the fact that Raistlin doin' nothing that Fist has not done before. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Magnuskrauss (talk • contribs) 14:42, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually you guys should note that Raistlin didnt have hourglass eyes or gold skin when he was back in the istar days, or when he battled fistandantilus. In the whole legends series, Raistlin doesnt have his golden skin or hourglass eyes except when hes in his own time and when hes in the abyss. So the guardians couldnt tell who actually won. But i agree that raistlin won and Astinus HAD to call him fistandantilus otherwise in the future (present time) Raistlin would have been reading himself in the books of astinus. But you can also argue the fact that time cant be changed except by the races that werent created at the beginning of time, so therefore raistlin lost just like that apprentice was supposed to in the original timeline. But after reading dragons of the hourglass mage, it seems they tried to explain it by raist and fist becoming one being with both memories. Before Raistlin joins the dark queen in neraka he doesnt have any plans on becoming a god, its only AFTER him and fist have the battle in the temple of neraka, and fistandantilus half sucks raistlin, then raistlin kills Fistandantilus (who looks IDENTICAL to himself at that point due to half sucking his soul). So really, they explain it as Raistlin and fistandantilus become the same person with the same ambitions and so. Otherwise i dont believe raistlin would have attempted to become a god if he was himself.

Also, in the Dragons of summer flame, when they bring raist back to the world, they ask him if he would change what he did and all he said was "i can say it wasnt me who tried to take the queens position." Or something along those lines. But he does say it wasnt him who tried.

In Dragons of the Hourglass Mage, Raistlin does in fact defeat Fistandantilus and casts the Bloodstone into a pool of acid so ir cant be used again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.174.83.232 (talk) 04:19, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Trivia
I am on a patrol of DL articles for these sections, one was on the Tanis Half-Elven article... can someone verify those statements? DoomsDay349 00:31, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the Comment about raistlin explaining to caramon in the TEST OF THE TWINS trilogy. Read it. It clears a lot up. Also, try reading Italic text Raistlins daughterItalic text from the second generation —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.1.80.137 (talk • contribs).


 * The powers of the Bloodstone of Fistandantilus are detailed in the AD&D 'Tales of the Lance' boxed set. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 164.143.244.34 (talk • contribs).

Raistlain v Fistandantilus part I
When Raistlain was taking his Test, the agreement with Fistandantilus was for all of his soul, not just part of it. Raistlain then refused, and the magical armor that resulted in his gold-colored skin protected him from Fistandantilus' weakened spectral form. This is all in the last couple chapters of Soul Forge, btw. --Ostermana 19:07, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

This article is massively innaccurate
Examples:
 * Rasitlin did not recieve his golden skin from Fist, rather Fist explains that Raistlin summoned it to protect himself - Soul Forge
 * This whole Fist gave Raistlin skin thing is a result of Par Salin saying (speculating more likely) it a couple of times in Legends. But it turns out in Soul forge this isn't true? So Par Salin didn't ever know the truth? Aarontay 14:34, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Raistlin's health was shattered by the poisoned dagger that the third Dark Elf stabbed him with, Fist didn't get any of his soul/life energy - Soul Forge
 * Are you sure? I'm pretty certain that Fist *did* wrench part of Raistlin's life force, this is too major a point for soulforce to retcon. Again Par Salin has told Caramon that it was nothing the test did that shattered raistlin's health that way. Plus Raistlin's own words in legends... MAarontay 14:34, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * No, that is wrong. Fistandantilus did take part of Raistlin's life force, and continued to do so until Legends.--Kranar drogin 21:51, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * No, Raistlin became vigorous during Chronicles. Recall that his cough was gone and that he supported Caramon on the way out of the Temple of Takhisis.  After that, he was pretending to be weak and to have to cough to trick Crysania into pitying him.  This is also given away by Dalamar when he doesn't know what Crysania means when she refers to his frailty and sickness.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.3.147.82 (talk) 09:38, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

This was covered in the book Dragons of the Hourglass Mage: Lost Chronicles - Raistlin is having his life force shared with Fist, until he traps Fist in the Dragon Orb with Viper. It is at this time that Raistlin starts to regain his strength. 84.28.168.168 (talk) 12:44, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Mages were decreed to be allowed a single short blade not because of Huma, but because of Magius who was captured and tortured for days after his magic failed him, leaving him completely unarmed. - Legend of Huma
 * Correct. I seem to recall another character giving another reason though... Aarontay 14:34, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * As with all things concerning Raistlin, I refer to any Weis/Hickman books, seeing as how they first wrote the characters. Seeing as how the carrying of a weapon concerns him, I will quote from "The Soulforge" here as to the justification of carrying such a weapon: "They tortured him (Magius) for three days and three nights......Magius died, never revealing the truth........ Huma ordered that, from then on, wizards would be permitted to carry one small, bladed weapon, to be used as a last defense if their magic failed them. --Vyselink 00:46, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The army Raistlin and Caramon joined after completing the Test had existed for generations - Brothers in Arms
 * Wrong, they created it, pg. 65 Legends of the Twins.--Kranar drogin 21:51, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I think there's a lot of confusion here about which army we are talking about. The army of Fistandantilus was created by the brothers yes. But the army that was led by the "Mad Baron" that the brothers joined immediately after the Test as chronicled in "Brother in arms" indeed did obviously exist before they joined it (for how long it existed I don't know). I hope this clears up the confusion. BTW I would be wary about quoting source material from Campaign settings no matter who the author is (even Weis), I'm not sure if they are canon compared to the novels. If they contradict (and I'm sure they do in some places), I would take the novels. Aarontay 08:29, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, that one I agree on. The Mad Baron's army was around for a long time.--Kranar drogin 11:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It's not the "Dragon Orb of Silvanesti", they just happen to possess it. It was the "Green Dragon Orb", a major artifact in the Dungeons and Dragons Dungeon Masters Guide
 * The true name for it was the Istar Orb, or Orb of Istar. Green Dragon Orb is the generic name for it. Do not use D&D terms for items in DL, DL always names them first.--Kranar drogin 21:51, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Sometime in the next couple weeks, I'll reread Soul Forge, Brothers in Arms, Time/War/Test of the Twins and the Chronicles, take notes on Raistlin's actions/thoughts/motivations, and update the page. If anyone else wants to do so, however, feel free. I don't have any of the books from his later life though... Ostermana
 * It's the Master of Past, Present and Future. Raistlin taunts Fist, saying Fist was the Master of Past and Present, but did not have the power/courage to control the Future as well - War if the Twins
 * Well, most of the points can be discussed. -- ReyBrujo 04:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe we should first make sure that there are no conflicts between different books, then check if the points are valid. To simplify the checking of the points, we could use http://www.dlnexus.com Dlnexus, then correct the article if valid. ddcc 16:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I doubt we'll find too many inconsistencies... Weis wrote basically all that is Raistlin, and cares for him like her own child (According to a forward in the Dragon Lance Complete Chronicles foreward. by Weis) Ah well, I'll know in a few days.Ostermana 19:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I think you'll find plenty. Even the description of the Staff of Magius changes. I know in the original books, it was bronze, then silver and gold. MikeSims 04:08, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The whole deal with what *really* happened at the test has changed a few times, with each newer version being claimed as what really happened and the earlier one as lies. :) Aarontay 14:34, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I suggest reading Legends of the Twins that was produced by Sovereign Press/Margaret Weis Productions for more information on Raistlin, including alternate times on Krynns.--Kranar drogin 21:51, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * That's a campaign setting rather than a novel right? Don't tell me there is yet another version of what really happened... *groan*. Alternate Krynns?? Aarontay 08:37, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * This is a sourcebook/gaming book. This isn't another version of what happened to them going back in time, but it goes more into depth on the people and timeframe there. The alternate Krynn's is actually pretty neat. One is if Raistlin had won, if the Kingpriest won, etc.--Kranar drogin 11:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * "Regardless, with Fistandantilus' magical power at his disposal, he rapidly became by far the most powerful magic-user on Krynn, outstripping even elven mages centuries older than he." Where is this from? This completely goes against the books. Raistlin almost gets his ass handed to him, constantly, in those first few years, and he doesn't get any power from Fist except for a temp boost during his Test, and after he steals Fist's soul. In the Chronicles he's extremely happy and proud of himself for getting his hands on one of Fist's earliest spellbooks. Most of his early knowledge comes from the books that Lemuel's father left behind, who was a famous War Wizard. - Soul Forge--Ostermana 19:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The article was written by fans who often express opinions instead of facts. You will find a lot of these sentences. In fact, very few sentences could be saved from this article if we follow the guidelines. Just be bold and begin cleaning stuff, citing a book and page for the changes so that fans will know why what they wrote was deleted. -- ReyBrujo 19:29, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * After Raistlin uses the Dragon Orb to escape to Palanthas he nearly dies, but Astinus lets him study the mage's books in the library there. ISTR that Astinus lets something slip that gives Raist a clue as to how to read the books but that he does ask someone for help - I always assumed that it was Fistandantilus. I'll re-read the book and see. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by EntropyJim (talk • contribs) 17:11, 21 February 2007 (UTC).
 * I'm going to completely rewrite it from scratch, soon as I finish reading through the books again.--Ostermana 20:36, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Figured I would make a few comments myself here.
 * First off, the title is Master of Past and Present....not "and Future". - Many many references, Legends of the Twins to begin with, Chronicles.
 * The Army of the Mad Baron had existed since he was in his teens when he knew that he wouldn't become the next Baron, but as we know he did become the next Baron. His army has not existed for for very long. - Brothers in Arms
 * It isn't "Green Dragon Orb", close, but the real name for it is "Istar Orb", having come from the Tower of High Sorcery of Istar. - Towers of High Sorcery
 * I hope this helps, got more questions let me know and I will try and answer them. Good luck with the rewrite!--Kranar drogin 01:57, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
 * And that would be exactly why I'm going to reread everything before making changes.--Ostermana 20:03, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
 * as for the Orb, there is an Orb named for each color of dragon, good and evil, in the DMG 3.5. However, they renamed a bunch of stuff for DL, so this doesn't particularly surprise me. Amusingly, the Orb that Tas smashed wouldn't have done the Knights any good anyway. Turns out, with the exception of the Gold Dragon Orb (the one in the tower), no orb can control any type of dragon except the one it's tuned to. Raistlin's Orb can control Green Dragons, but no others. (The Guardian was a green, that's how I can tell).--24.16.154.193 00:53, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Are you sure you aren't confusing this with the "Dragon Stones"? Dragons Orbs do have a "personality reflecting what dragons it has trapped inside of it", but they control all dragons, not just what color they are. Also, the Palanthas Orb, one in the High Clerist's TOwer, was attuned to Red Dragons, but pulled in Blue Dragons during the battle. the DMG 3.5 really has no bearing as far as artifacts in DL, that is for D&D in general, so the info in those for the Dragon Orbs isn't acceptable. Please check out Towers of High Sorcery (sourcebook), p. 59-61 for info on them.--Kranar drogin 03:05, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
 * That makes sense. Dragon Stones controlled types of dragons by themselves. I think Tears of the Night Sky talked about them to a point too. -- ReyBrujo 04:01, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
 * (sigh) A thing called life has thrown in a whole slew of distractions, and school starts in a couple weeks, I probably won't get to this for a while yet. Also, the Dragon Orbs are on a one color per orb basis in general D&D, with the added bonus that using one makes all dragons hate you forever. But DL is not general D&D, as previously stated.--Ostermana 10:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * BTW, there were only five dragon orbs, one for every type of evil dragon. Not for every good and evil dragon.24.29.205.92 13:04, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, there are 6, one for each chromatic, and one for a metallic coloring. See Price of Courage.--Kranar drogin 10:29, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Disputed/Rewrite
As discussed in other sections of the talk page, the factual accuracy of this article is lacking. Many general statements are made with no references, or are simply wrong, such as "Already weak physically, Raistlin's health was shattered almost completely after the test, due to the life energy he gave to Fistandantilus....His skin was also rendered a golden color as a result of a protection spell cast by Fistandantilus on him in his battle against the dark elves. Regardless, with Fistandantilus' magical power at his disposal, he rapidly became by far the most powerful magic-user on Krynn, outstripping even elven mages centuries older than he." This entire quote is completely bogus, as demonstrated by the last severl chapter of the book Soul Forge (ISBN: 0786913142) and Brothers in Arms (ISBN: 0786914297). The article appears to go down hill from there. Many of the personality statements are conjecture, and while I personally agree with many of them, they are not listed as such. There are many more, but I do not personally have the time to correct these issues myself at this time. --Ostermana 03:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the problem is that there are at least three different versions of Raistlin's encounter with Fistandtantilus, dark elves etc at the Tower of high sorcery during the test so it all kind of blurrs in the mind. Soulforge and BIA should be the final word though. Aarontay 14:20, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, i would like to point out that it clearly states in "Drogons of a winters night", around the time when sturm dies,that it attracts a aura, or a calling that "Dragons" find irresitable. Not one type of dragon, but dragons.Its not singular. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.1.80.137 (talk • contribs).

Raistlin's Daughter
I remember that there was one book that said Raistlin had a daughter (an Irda), however, I'm not quite sure of that. Did he have one? If so, Image:Raistlindaughter.JPG, this image works. ddcc 03:07, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It is disputed. The short story, aptly named "Raistlin's Daughter" (in Second Generation), describes how Raistlin meets an Irda and they are aflicted by the Valin and are forced to have intercourse in a cave.  Raistlin then forgets this, thanks to a spell.  However, in Dragons of Summer Flame, Raistlin reveals another story and claims the rumours are a lie.  As far as I know, it's not confirmed either way. I like to believe that the first story is true, as I have a soft spot for Raistlin :).   Dooms  Day34  9  03:31, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * From my point of view, it is not disputed. Raistlin has no daughter, and that image is actually Raistlin and the Irda who was supposedly the one who fall in love with him, not Usha. -- ReyBrujo 23:52, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Margaret Weis has come out and said that in no way shape or form has Raistlin ever had or will ever have a child. Basically that tale is considered a "Kender Tale".--Kranar drogin 00:04, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * =P. Fine then.  Is it so wrong to dream?  *wistful sigh*  Dooms  Day34  9  00:35, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * LOL, you can always dream! Sorry to shatter them though, but had to clarrify what the "Raistlin Master" has stated many times, even on her own boards.--Kranar drogin 00:37, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * :) thanks. Can you provide a reference to that KD?  It might be helpful in the article.  Dooms  Day34  9  00:40, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Go to Tracy Hickman's website, http://www.dragonhearthproductions.com/, and get his podcast through itunes from July 23, 2006. That is an interview with Margaret that should be what you want. It is at the 22:30 minuteish, some lady asks Margaret and she states "Raistlin doesn't have a daughter, it was an urban legend."--Kranar drogin 01:01, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * What to do with the supposed picture of his daughter then? The picture is actually labeled "Raistlin's Daughter", with a comment of "This was back in the old days when we didn't do much preparation. We just starated painting to get it done.  The art director wanted to show both the inside and the outside of the cave, which was really difficult" (Larry Elmore). ddcc 01:46, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Black Robe Picture
Does anyone have a better picture of Raistlin wearing the Black Robes? I know there is one here, but it only shows his face. I think a full body or at least upper body pic of Raistlin in Black Robes would be nice for this page, as I think his Black Robed-self is more common than his Red Robed one. Dooms Day34  9  00:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. See Image:Raistlinabyssportal.JPG. ddcc 01:51, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * So can I just add that then? Or do I have to go about some fair use policy?  Dooms  Day34  9  16:15, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Fair use policy is alreay on the image description, so you can just display it with a little caption saying something along the lines of: "this is raistlin wearing the black robes in istar with crysania and caramon". ddcc 16:36, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Lair of the Live Ones would be better. The problem being that it is copyright and I'm not sure if it's fair use. external link Here —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.17.219.206 (talk • contribs).
 * I can get a scan of that, but personally I don't like how it looks. D  dc  c  21:41, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't like it here, either. The previously mentioned one is good.   Dooms  Day349  16:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I am rewriting this article
I am new to Wikipedia, but after reading the incredibly inaccurate Raistlin article here, I decided to rewrite it myself. I've already finished a rough version describing his basic character. Where would be a good place to post that so that I can get feedback from you guys? Finnicks 19:44, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * You can create a page in your userspace, in example, at User:Finnicks/Sandbox or User:Finnicks/Raistlin Majere, and develop there. However, I suggest rewriting the article here: one thing is to see the article changing every day a bit (a new section, two sections merged, some rewritten paragraphs, etc), than suddenly get a completely new version. As for rewriting, I suggest you to read the guidelines for fictional characters. Good luck! -- ReyBrujo 20:27, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I welcome your re-write, but remember that you're not alone here! Feel free to edit section by section, or do the whole thing.  If someone edits a section before you write it, don't just post over it, instead add your information to what they've written.  Everyone's contribution are equal here.  Thanks for your contributions!   Dooms  Day34  9  20:31, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I retyped the "Personality" section and replaced it with a Character Profile that encompasses all the previously listed in a more creatively written and easier to follow form. It also better introduces him as a fictional character and better explains his roots as a D&D character. Finnicks 21:50, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Nice job. It looks much better now.  Keep up the good work!  Dooms  Day34  9  22:14, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

How condensed are we talking?
Exactly how condensed should the background be? I'm having a great deal of trouble describing Raistlin's early life without going back and explaining all the subtle details. Even simplifying matters, I wasn't able to reduce the first half of Soulforge to less than 5 paragraphs. I'm editing them into the Early Life now. Revert it if you feel it's too detailed or long-winded. Or better yet, find a way to reduce it further. My main goal here is to eliminate the factual inaccuracies present in the current rendition. Your thoughts? Finnicks 05:39, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, most of the plot should go in the novels articles. See Goldmoon, Riverwind and Sturm Brightblade to get an idea. Note that, in the case of Sturm, the plot is extremely short. All his "life" was described in a single section. Splitting his life in sections (in example, trilogies, or real life years) is a good way of starting. -- ReyBrujo 05:53, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Cross-Namespace links and WP:ASR
I read over this article linked in the second edit made by user Khatru2, wherein he changed the link to MikeSims' userpage to an external link. I fail to see how the WP:ASR article has any bearing on this situation or where it calls for this change. Please elaborate on this before re-editing the revert. Finnicks 05:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) Regarding this last revert, I must agree with Khatru2. I believe the users reverting the change don't comprehend what avoid self-references mean, so I will quickly explain. Wikipedia is divided into several namespaces, including User, Image and Article. Now, we know Wikipedia is free, so some sites like Answers.com and About.com pick the information found in Wikipedia and publish it in their own sites, with advertisment or some other stuff in order to obtain money. Now, these sites usually mirror the information in the article namespace. They don't copy the User namespace, as it is not likely someone will search in Answers.com for User:ReyBrujo. Nor they mirror the Image namespace, because most of the uploaded images here are not free, and they can get into problems since they are trying to profit with our articles, and if they show images that are not free they will be also profiting from fair use images.


 * Now, when we write at Wikipedia, we need to think about the fact that some sites will mirror only the Article namespace. In other words, if I pick all the articles in Wikipedia and make a site with it, there should not be jumps to the user namespace with wikilinks, because we are doing a self reference there. In other words, you jump from information about an article to information about a Wikipedia user. Another self reference would be to add a link to the WikiProject Dragonlance in the article about Dragonlance, as you are making the casual user jump from an article where he can get information to "behind the scenes". Note that maintenance templates like unreferenced and uncategorized are also self references, because they allow the casual reader to jump from information we can show to "behind the scenes". That is why we should correct the problems explained in those tags as soon as possible. Pointing to a User in the User namespace is another self reference, and this one can be easily avoided by either removing the wikilink, creating an article about the user (remembering the notability guidelines), or by hyperlinking the user to the user page. In this last case, the user will notice it is an external link, and will know that, wherever he is being taken, it is not into the "article" domain anymore.


 * Hopefully this clarifies the matter, and choose one of the alternatives I described here. -- ReyBrujo 06:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I would like to sincerely apologize for making the same change twice without consulting the talk page. I often go through the list at Special:CrossNamespaceLinks and I failed to realize that I had made this change previously.  ReyBrujo summarized the reasons for why I made the change quite well.  If you look at WP:ASR under the "Writing about Wikipedia itself" section, it says "If ... you link from an article to a Wikipedia page outside the main namespace, use external link style to allow the link to work also in a site with a copy of the main namespace content."  If you don't object to this, I will change it back to external link style in a few days.  Again, I'm sorry. Khatru2 06:07, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Raistlin's Age
How old was Raist when he died? What book did he die in? I know he took his test at 21, five years before the Chronicles. Raistlin lived long enough to meet Palin in his twenties, meaning he had to live to at least 45, but the page lists him as dying at 30. OstermanA —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.16.154.193 (talk • contribs).
 * Technically, Raistlin died in Test of the Twins, third book in the Legends series. It was during the end of the Blue Lady's War in 357 AC, and since he was 26 during 351, he would be 32 years old. He was "resurrected" in 383, when he met Palin. However, this is all original research. I would give some more information from the sources, but I am a little busy right now :) By the way, don't sign as a user when you are logged out. -- ReyBrujo 16:57, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Again, false. He never technically died in the Mortal realm, so he was always free to return it as a living being. There was no "ressurection" per-se, he just chose to not return to the realm of the living. In Dragons of Summer Flame, however, he was forced to. Sardonicone 23:06, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Question: Is drawing clear conclusions original research?  Dooms  Day34  9  01:47, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Strictly, yes. If we only know the year in which he was born and the year in which he died, we can only post those dates. -- ReyBrujo 02:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I see. It seems odd, if we have the dates of birth and death, why can't we simply say how old he was when he was dead?  It's not a big enough deal to take it up with Wikipedia though.  Dooms  Day34  9  02:07, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Mostly because dates are not accurate in fantasy. In example, Raistlin could have lived a year in the past, during the kingpriest time, and we would not be measuring that year in his total age. Thus, if we have a source for birthday and another for death, it is better to just quote them, instead of prompting fans to come discuss whether the 6 months in the past, the time spent in the Abyss, if we should add the time he was alive during the Chaos War, etc, etc. -- ReyBrujo 02:30, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Ahhhh I see your point now. Yes, it would not be good to prompt the fans and whatnot.  One more question though, what about a real person?  For example, John Smith was born on January 1st 1980 and died on January 1st 2005.  However, say we cannot find a source saying he was 25 when he died?  Can we still say so?   Dooms  Day34  9  20:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Commonly, yes, as dates are exact. We had a discussion in the WikiProject Albums about this: someone asked if adding the length of the album tracks based in mp3 rips was original research or not, as mp3s usually skip the 2 or so white seconds before and after the song, where I stated it was much more verifiable to tell someone to get the album and check the cover in some shop than rip the cd and check the resulting length. If the dates are approximate, you try to prevent mentioning age. There is no way someone could have lived more in real life than the difference between the death date and the birthday date, unless the dates are not accurate or he was born when the julian calendar was changed. -- ReyBrujo 20:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * In real life, it is not research to say someone lived x years by subtracting the date of their birth from the date of their death.. In the real life case of where you only have year of either birth or death, it is not appropriate to attempt to calculate age by subtraction as it can lead to an inaccurate result (ie, born Nov 1702, died Jan 1722 means 19, not 20 years old at time of death). In this article's case the character is fictional and since the character did live some portion of time outside of the time period between his birth and death, the simple difference between the two is probably not the most appropriate means to determine his age. -- Upholder 20:46, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Alright, I understand now. Thanks guys :).   Dooms  Day34  9  21:01, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Paladine
I just think it's funny that Paladine is described as fictional, but Krynn isn't... Mackan79 22:17, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
 * There's anecdotal evidence that Krynn is implied to be a prehistoric Earth. It could be said that if Krynn is Earth, then Krynn itself is simply another name for a nonfictional object (Terra), but that all events which are credited to take place on Krynn (and any deities) are fictional. On the other hand, there's more evidence that Krynn isn't Earth (the continents are completely wrong for one), so maybe I should shut up and the article should be changed.
 * No, Krynn is much smaller than Earth. And if you want to get into a debate on that, I suggest going to the dragonlance boards and asking, then our resident space people will profoundly confuse you on their explanations. Trust me on that one!--Kranar drogin 12:10, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The only evidence I know of supporting the theory is that when the Gods of Magic had left, there was a single over sized gray/white moon in the sky. I only mentioned the possibility for the amusement of my fellow Wikipedians and apparently failed to make that sufficiently clear... oops. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.227.191.9 (talk) 21:49, 29 December 2006 (UTC).

Blade
Are you sure about how the blade idea was created? I thought that it came from weak mages running out of strength and thus helpless, so they were allowed to carry a silver dagger in their sleeves. Also, it is true that his dad died in a woodcutting accident when he was older, but his mother lasted a much longer amount of time. --Raystlyn 02:57, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
 * To see the story about Raistlin's father Gilon, please read Dark Heart. Blades were given to mages in honor of Magius' sacrifice during the Third Dragon War, as a sort of last defense. Huma is the one who allowed mages to have this.--Kranar drogin 04:13, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't Soulforge supercede that of Dark Heart? Aarontay 08:34, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Not quite sure how Care Bears related to Dragonlance, but ok.... ;) D  dc  c  23:10, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Reverted edit made by 216.232.172.50
I reverted an edit made by 216.232.172.50 on Feb 5. This user changed information to indicate that Raistlin received his golden skin from "merging" with Fistandantilus, which is incorrect. Raistlin's golden skin, as Fistandantilus himself indicated, was of his own making. Finnicks 23:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Removal of unnecessary exposition
I edited the Character Profile section to remove some unecessary exposition on mage alignment that was added in that disturbed the flow of the article. In the original version I wrote there are clear links to the respective pages that describe Wizards of High Sorcery and their alignment, so describing the colored robes and their purpose is unecessary.

I also moved the "archetypeal anti-hero" sentence to a better location, as where it was poorly placed and, again, disturbed the flow of the section.

Finnicks (talk) 02:44, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

What's this about a kender?
You don't need a kender to open the portal to the abyss. You just need a white robed cleric of the utmost purity and a black robed mage of pure evil. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.29.175.237 (talk) 23:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

The Kender TAS is just the authors' way of having an "everyman" character follow the main characters around, is an attempt at comic relief, and as a foil for the best laid plans of mice and men —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.174.83.232 (talk) 04:44, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Removal of the Notability template is disputed
Please restore the Notability template from Raistlin Majere, an article which does not have any reliable secondary sources. There is no reasonable justification for removing the template which was put there to address this problem. Unless you adding reliable secondary sources to the article, I would be grateful if the template is restored.--Gavin Collins (talk) 13:02, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * There is no justification for your assembly line tagging of articles of one particular type either unless you are trying to push some personal agenda or POV. You will cease and desist adding tags to articles that you have no subject matter knowledge. By doing so you are demonstrating that you are more interested in some personal agenda than the improvement of a body of knowledge.  Web Warlock (talk) 13:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * There is justifiaton: there are no reliable secondary sources. Please restore the template; there is no justifiable reason for its removal. --Gavin Collins (talk) 13:12, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Only disputed by people with an agenda outside of improving the article. You have a point to make, go create a blog. Web Warlock (talk) 13:28, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I suggest you improve the article before you remove the cleanup template. From my viewpoint, it appears you are asserting notability based on your opinion, rather than any evidence. I hope you realise that my removing the template, you are actually impeding the improvement of this article? --Gavin Collins (talk) 14:00, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * How about you actually improve the article by editing some text instead of cutting and pasting tags. Your selective blindness to Wikipedia policy, say such as WP:SOFIXIT, mars your credibility and only furthers the perception that you are here only to push a personal agenda. By not expanding articles and demanding others do it makes you the worst kind of hypocrite. Your edits are in bad faith and for that reason alone I cannot as an academic restore edits I believe were made this way. Web Warlock (talk) 14:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Erm, he was bold by adding the tag. Also, WP:SOFIXIT says, "We expect everyone [emphasis added] to be bold and help make Wikipedia a better encyclopedia." It doesn't say, "...only people who have subject matter knowledge." As for the subject's notability, I don't know. I'm not familiar with the series. I don't see any sources which support its notability. SharkD (talk) 18:04, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yup! I edited the article too. Web Warlock (talk) 18:51, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I would be grateful if you could restore the notability cleanup template you removed. At least one other editor has noted the lack of secondary sources that the template was placed to address, which I think you will agree is to the article's benefit. --Gavin Collins (talk) 08:52, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * RFC Comment: There seem to be enough references to me. I see no problem with them. - LA @ 07:09, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * There are lots of primary references but there are no reliable secondary sources - see WP:RS for details. --Gavin Collins (talk) 09:39, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Removal of "uncited" material
In reference to the recent sequence of reverts over the mention in "May 1995 issue of InQuest Magazine", exactly what reference is needed here? Do we need a source which talks about InQuest's mention of the character, or can we not simply cite it to the May 1995 issue of that publication? --Sturm 11:43, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Are you refering to the following text?
 * "Raistlin Majere was mentioned in the May 1995 issue of InQuest Magazine, which suggested that in a hypothetical live-action movie, he should be played by actor Robert Patrick."
 * If so, I am not sure what this statement is trying to prove. "which suggests" suggests only one thing: OR. --Gavin Collins (talk) 22:22, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I imagine it was trying to prove that the character was mentioned in other media, namely InQuest Magazine. Original research includes "unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position". The material added to the article was published speculation.  So, how does original research apply here? (And is anyone going to tackle the question of how this could be considered "uncited"?) --Sturm 22:39, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The statement "Raistlin Majere was mentioned..." itself is OR, as it itmplies somehow that this is significant, when in fact the mention in question may actualy be trivial. If you could actually quote the article, rather than have the reader intepret the citation second hand, that is normal procedure, and until you do so, it is impossible to judge whether this reference meets the requirements of WP:RS. --Gavin Collins (talk) 09:37, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Removal of Trivia
I'm not going to undo it since it is probably a Conflict of Interest, but the reference to me playing Raistlin was removed from Appearances in other media as 'trivia' even though there are references to a comic character wanting to name his kid Raistlin. I was interviewed in the first Legends of the Lance newsletter :  http://www.dlnexus.com/products/564.aspx I was also in Tracy Hickman's parody: http://www.trhickman.com/Physic/Acquire/Fun/Zillance/Zilla01.html

If I am out, that's cool, but let's determine what is trivia. Thanks MikeSims (talk) 00:53, 9 May 2008 (UTC)