Talk:Ralph Vaughan Williams/Archive 2

St Barnabas church, Guildford Road
In case anyone is interested, here is the former church of St Barnabas, Guildford Road, Lambeth:. There is some interesting detail in the description. Was expecting to see this image at Commons, but can't seem to find it. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:54, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Martin: that is most thoughtful of you. I did rather wonder when writing the relevant para, and now I know.  Tim riley  talk    23:58, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
 * As it is a geography.org image, it could be manually copied over to Commons, if people think it's of sufficeint quality/ of interest. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:38, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Seems eminently suitable for Commons to me. Not sure that in the RVW article it would be preferable to the Cheyne Walk picture, and I don't think we can squeeze both in at the relevant point in the narrative. Open to persuasion on this, natch.  Tim riley  talk    19:13, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm sure you're right. A link might be ideal, but not sure how that would work. The church does not (yet) have its own article. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:28, 16 November 2015 (UTC) p.s. I was struck by the distinctive architecture - at the top it's almost like a synagogue alongside a mosque! Anyway, here it is: File:Former St Barnabas church, Guildford Road.jpg
 * Note: the organ that RVW played is now at the Church of St John the Baptist, Catford: but again, I can't find a Commons image. In fact, I can't even find that church at Wikipedia. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:46, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

dumb question
Is Vaughan Williams considered to be a hyphenated name? If so, where are the hyphens? If not, it's bad writing style to put "Vaughan Williams" in almost every sentence. It should be Williams and then also try some pronouns. After all, we know who the article is about. 108.18.136.147 (talk) 22:59, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * See thread above called "Surname". Martinevans123 (talk) 23:07, 18 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Doubled-barrelled surnames are names where a person who marries wishes to retain the surnames of both families, i.e., the surnames of both the husband and the wife, so the two family surnames are combined with a hyphen which signifies that they are effectively one word and are pronounced as such. Non-hyphenated names such as Vaughan Williams are pronounced as separate names but with only a slight pause between them.


 * In the UK and most countries a marrying woman takes the surname of her husband, and so in families with all girls the family surname could eventually disappear. Hence the use of Doubled-barrelled surnames which preserve the wife's family name.


 * So the reason "Vaughan Williams" doesn't have a hyphen is because it isn't a doubled-barrelled surname. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.173.13 (talk) 17:37, 1 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Whether you hyphenate or not is optional to the family and in Britain hyphenation seems to be relatively rare. Note there are other ways of getting a double barrelled surname.  A common one is an inheritance with the requirement of adding on a surname.  It seems unclear where his family picked up Vaughan; his grandfather Edward Vaughan Williams was the first of his ancestors to use it (his great grandfather was simply John Williams) though it seems it was a middle name frequently used (perhaps to differentiate from all the other Edward Williams out there) since the DNB uses 'Williams' when referring to him and then his descendants (or some) made it a double barrelled last name. For Ralph's uncle Roland Vaughan Williams the DNB uses the double barrelled form. --Erp (talk) 02:49, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

The First Nowell
The piece "The First Nowell, A Nativity Play" is mentioned in the section on VW and English Folk Music, and is linked to the Wikipedia page for the carol of the same name. That page, though, makes no mention of the VW work nor indeed of Vaughan Williams, so the reference is of little value. The work can be performed with actors, singers and orchestra, or simply as a choral song cycle. I belong to a choir that is going to perform it in that form this winter, so I tried looking it up here, and I think it merits a page of its own. It probably wouldn't take me too long to knock up something simple-minded for a new wikipedia page which could link from here and the page on the carol, but there is almost certainly somebody who could do a better job of it than me before that! Would anyone like to take that on? Isambardcat (talk) 10:28, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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Links to his works
I linked to some of his pieces, and found later that some probably are not linked because the were linked in the biography section. I suggest that we link once more in the music section, because I can imagine readers to look just there, not reading it all. We did so for Mendelssohn and Debussy, afaik. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:22, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

Text in entire article is red.
How did this become a featured article when the entire text (except links) is red, and has been that way since the edit of 09:02, 14 December 2016‎? The effect shows up with multiple browsers and multiple devices, both the desktop and mobile versions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.149.231.205 (talk)
 * Vandalism of a template that this article uses. I fixed it. DMacks (talk) 05:05, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah, thank you! I thought I was losing my mind! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.149.231.205 (talk) 11:44, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Specific meaning of "Teutonic"
The lede uses this term, and User:PiCo asserts that its meaning is so well known and obivously as to make any explanation or linking un-necessary. The only other use of this term is in a direct quote, which does not directly define it (nor clearly by context clues), and there is no surrounding explanation of the quote. Our Teutonic page is a DAB with several plausible targets but none that are clearly on topic. What exactly is the shade of meaning intended here? Does it mean classical Germanic (Teutons)? Or modern Germanic peoples?

Earlier in the lede, it says his music is "a decisive break in British music from its German-dominated style of the 19th century." Putting all this together, does "Ravel helped him clarify the textures of his music and free it from Teutonic influences." mean he was freed from his own earlier mode in his work or that Ravel led RVW at his start to break the whole British paradigm?

What is relevant here? If we really mean German style (what was happening in the world that the time), we already said that in the lede. How about instead stating what the style was (brainstorming..."developed his own lighter style, rather than the heavier style that was popular at the time"), or not bothering re-labeling the influence at all? DMacks (talk) 09:14, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The last line of the first paragraph says that Vaughan Williams' "output marked a decisive break in British music from its German-dominated style of the 19th century." If you don't know that German and Teutonic are synonyms, Gott help you.PiCo (talk) 11:38, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
 * WP:NPAx2. You should know better, right? If you don't say what "German style" is (and you *nowhere* define it), it's not clear which of the zillions of styles of Music of Germany you are talking about. Someone else just said it was the 2nd-century BC meaning. Why don't you go help build our encyclopedia somewhere any let someone who knows the answer here and is willing to answer it, answer it. DMacks (talk) 14:48, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

If you read the main text you will see that the word is that used by RVW himself. I assume he used it in the normal non-specialist sense of "German", as given in the OED and Chambers, but I don't think it is for me to gloss his words: merely to record them faithfully. His teachers, Parry and Stanford, were followers of Brahms and Wagner, and I take VW's comment about Teutonic music to point to them and their predecessors, but I should not be comfortable about saying so specifically without a relevant WP:RS. By coincidence, Claude Debussy was on the front page a few days ago, and in his article you will find similar references by the composer to Teutonic influences.  Tim riley  talk   16:54, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I too came to the talk page to ask about this. It definitely needs to be clarified. Ralph Vaughan Williams died over half a century ago and it is not unreasonable to gloss his words for the sake of people reading his biography in 2018. There is a considerable difference between the ancient tribe of Teutons (currently linked in the article) and modern German people. I honestly fail to see how actual Teutons, who lived 2,000 years ago and left no written traces, could have influenced the music of a 20th century composer. Surtsicna (talk) 22:13, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
 * See above. Like many words, “Teutonic” has a particular technical meaning and a more generally used popular one. See, e.g. Chambers: “(popularly) Germanic in any sense”; OED: “displaying the characteristics attributed to Germans”. I cordially agree with Surtsicna that linking to the ancient tribe is v. misleading; and I’ll remove the link when I come to do the post-front-page clean up tomorrow.  Tim riley  talk   22:25, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Agreed the link to Teutons is misleading. "Teutonic" is a slightly archaic way of saying "Germanic" -- it was more common a hundred years ago, but is still used. See the Google Ngram results, for example. That's how RVW meant it here. Antandrus (talk) 22:29, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
 * In my humble opinion, we would be better off saying German, just like we are better off describing Ravel as a French composer than as Gallic composer. Perhaps this would be solved by a link explaining what is meant by "Teutonic influences". We could even put quotation marks too, if RVW used that exact phrase. I am thinking of something like "Teutonic influences" . Surtsicna (talk) 23:24, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Coming late to this discussion, I would suggest that "Teutonic" influences should not be referred simply to "Music of Germany", since what RVW was referring to was the Austro-German classical tradition which included Haydn, Mozart, Mahler, and Bruckner, none of whom were actually "German". Myopic Bookworm (talk) 10:01, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I very much agree. It is definitely appropriate to retain "Teutonic" in Vaughan Williams' quote, but to be as clear as possible in modern language, especially in the introduction (the only part that many might read), I'd opine that "German" is better. I Would love to hear any follow-up thoughts. (Please pardon any formatting errors) 76.192.105.101 (talk) 22:06, 3 April 2020 (UTC)Dan 3 April 2020
 * I'd be happy if we linked to a different article. Any suggestions which, M. Bookworm?  Tim riley  talk   13:17, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Street names in Essex
An anonymous editor keeps adding a list of street names in Essex that refer to VW, citing "Right Move, UK's number one property website for properties for sale". I do not believe such material belongs here, but will of course go with any consensus to the contrary.  Tim riley  talk   16:09, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Not vandalism, but certainly comes across as (possibly unintentional) REFSPAM. I'll use a better source, and see how things go. ~Hydronium~Hydroxide~(Talk)~ 05:01, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Ok, reinserted with source (this was during the planning stage, but actual existence of streets is easily WP:V). Am ambivalent about the content remaining, however. If there were a separate article on VW's legacy then I'd have no issue with it there, but there are enough streets named after him that there's a risk of things devolving into near-trivia. The saving grace for this one might be that it's not just one ad-hoc street naming but a thematic cluster of streets, and that there's a local historical connection as the reason. ~Hydronium~Hydroxide~(Talk)~ 05:33, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Most judicious. Let's see if other editors have a view one way or the other.  Tim riley  talk   21:50, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
 * How many streets are named after him? That in itself might be a note-worthy comment. At the moment it looks like it's just Essex, in fact just The Clements Park development, located in Warley, Brentwood, Essex, which can't be right. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:52, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Vaughan Williams spent quite a lot of time cycling around Essex in 1904 following his encounter, in Brentwood, with an old farm worker (a Mr Pottifer) who sang him the song "By Bushes and by Briars". This introduction to Folk Song made a strong impression on RVW and may even have been responsible for the great influence that Folk Song material had on the development of his music thereafter. John Hamilton (talk) 01:17, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Deleted link to Internet Archive
Following advice here I have removed the link.  Tim riley  talk   20:10, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
 * For ease of reference, I note that the aforementioned advice has been archived here --Geoff Capp (talk) 17:06, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Name
Are you sure his name is "RIFE" instead of "RAL-FE"? One of the coaches of my student orchestra said that his name is "RAL-FE". Baccherini (talk) 22:37, 2 March 2021 (UTC)


 * It is most certainly not "Rife", and still less is it "Ral-fe". It is "Rafe", to rhyme with "safe" and "waif". His wife, Ursula, wrote this in her biography of him: "Ralph's name was pronounced Rafe, any other pronunciation used to infuriate him". (This was quite usual in England in those days. If you listen to a recording of H.M.S. Pinafore, premiered six years after RVW was born, you will hear that the name of the hero, Ralph Rackstraw, is pronounced "Rafe".) If you think the audio pronunciation at the top of the article is unclear – and I wouldn't disagree – I can add a new recording making it absolutely clear how the name is pronounced.   Tim riley  talk   07:15, 3 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Later: new audio file added, making it as plain as I can that the name is pronounced as required by the composer.  Tim riley  talk   07:34, 3 March 2021 (UTC)