Talk:Ram Mandir/Archive 3

Missing named reference
Following the last sentence of the last paragraph of the section "2021–present", the broken named reference "BBC" should be replaced with. Bsherr (talk) 05:03, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅, thanks! Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:03, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Veracity of sentence
Notwithstanding the above correction, it seems to me that the sentence should be modified. The cited reference contradicts the statement that the temple is completed, instead stating that only the ground floor is complete and the rest will be completed later. Thoughts? --Bsherr (talk) 05:14, 29 January 2024 (UTC)


 * @Bsherr Do you have an article which you can cite that confirms completion? By now there should be one. Especially since the goverment had an official opening and the news would have covered that. 41.146.146.251 (talk) 19:27, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, sources contemporaneous with the official opening state that the temple is incomplete despite the consecration ceremony. --Bsherr (talk) 05:15, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 25 January 2024

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bensci54 (talk) 20:39, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Ram Mandir → Rama Temple, Ayodhya – Per WP:NCUE: Switch to the English name of the article's subject, with the addition of the location of the article's subject to distinguish it from homonyms located elsewhere. Æo (talk) 16:44, 25 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose Please see Talk:Ram Mandir/Archive 1. It was moved at the current title after discussion. And the proposed title is just the English translation of the previous title which was Ram Mandir, Ayodhya. Ram is spelt as Rama in English sometimes and Mandir is the Hindi word for Temple.  ShaanSengupta  Talk 16:55, 25 January 2024 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE
 * Mandir(a) is not the only word used for Hindu temples in Indian languages. Is this temple exclusively called mandir? Or do other Indian languages use different words? In non-Indian languages, it may be confusing to people unfamiliar with Hinduism and Indian culture and languages. For example, one may find articles describing it redundantly as "the Ram Mandir temple", clearly written by people who are not very familiar with the topic. Æo (talk) 17:18, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
 * In addition to the reasons given above, Google News currently gives ≈5m results for "Ram(a) Temple" and ≈3,5m results for "Ram Mandir".--Æo (talk) 17:04, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Æo, you shouldn't make both the RM opener and a bolded !vote. You can fold this support rationale into your opener or leave it as a comment (without the bold support). Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:25, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Corrected. Æo (talk) 17:27, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
 * All of the English-language sources I've seen in India refer to it as the "Ram Temple", not "Rama", so that would actually be my preference, with no strong opinion on the need for "Ayodhya" as a disambiguator. Legoktm (talk) 19:46, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia already has an article on "Ram Mandir, Bhubaneswar", and I bet that there are many others across India. Æo (talk) 21:25, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Use Ram Mandir, regardless of whether or not the "Ayodhya" modifier is added, is what my data says.


 * This Google Ngram gives a small advantage to "Ram Mandir" over "Ram Temple", not enough to be decisive IMO, but certainly a data point in favor of Ram Mandir. "Rama Mandir" and "Rama Temple" are used, but a lot less. If we were decide on the Ngram alone, the "Rama" constructions would not make the cut.


 * The Ngram includes all appearances of these phrases, regardless of modifiers, therefore it would cover all Ram Mandirs/Temples worldwide. Which depreciates the Ngram data little or none, unless this particular building is to be an exception. This is English-language books only, but that's all we care about; some were published in India no doubt, but that changes nothing.


 * For Google Trends, which shows what people are searching on... searches on any of these terms have just shot up enormously. Here is the last 30 days for America, here is the last 30 days for India, and here is the last 30 days worldwide. All of these very strongly favor "Ram Mandir" over anything else. There are other ways to massage these tools, these are the basic default settings. (FWIW here is the last day worldwide and here is the last hour at this writing.)


 * Because reasons, neither of these tools can tell us much about whether or not adding the ", Ayodhya" modifier is preferable. That is largely up to our MOS, whether or not [we guess that] this building is the primary topic longterm. Herostratus (talk) 01:19, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
 * On Google Ngram I see that the use of "Ram Temple" and "Ram Mandir" is almost equal, with an extremely slight advantage for the former in recent times: 0.0000005869% for "Ram Temple" and 0.0000005764% for "Ram Mandir". In any case, let's remember that we are on the English Wikipedia, and therefore English-language terms should be favoured. Æo (talk) 14:06, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, but the areas under the curves count also. What has happened in the last few years counts, but what happened in 1980 counts too, although, granted, probably less. If someone comes here from a 1980 book and wants to find out more about this "Ram _____" thing the book has mentioned, it's more likely that the blank will be filled with "Mandir" rather than Temple. And "Mandir" has led, but a little or a lot, since people started writing about it.


 * This is the English Wikipedia, but is very common to not translate proper names. I think we should, more, but we don't. We use say Ecole de guerre-Terre rather than "Army War College (France)" as a general rule. I personally would prefer if the data favored "Temple" cos that conveys meaning that "Mandir" doesn't. But the data doesn't favor "Temple", not does common practice here. What can I say? It it what it is.Herostratus (talk) 16:33, 29 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Support Ram Mandir, Ayodhya: Mandir is a British English/ Indian English word . BBC, cnn use Ayodhya Ram Mandir. The suffix Ayodhya is needed for WP:PRECISE, Ram Mandir being a generic term for any Rama temple. Redtigerxyz Talk 04:35, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I still don't see the evidence that this temple isn't called Ram Mandir as a WP:ESTABLISHED proper name by the majority of English-language sources. Redtigerxyz's reasoning that it is a generic term is valid, but we don't have an article on the generic term. Thus, I don't see the need to move to Ram Mandir, Ayodhya for WP:PRECISE over WP:CONCISE. Even if an article is created for the generic term, it needs to be then decided as to the destinations of the either article-titles. I'd recommend for that article creation first which thereafter would make the search for the proper disambiguation easier. — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 18:45, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
 * We also have Ram Mandir, Bhubaneswar, Ram Mandir (disambiguation). We have a famous Ram Mandir in Wadala, Mumbai, , (article not created yet on wiki). BBC, CNN specifically use "Ayodhya Ram Mandir", rather than Ram Mandir. IMO, PRECISE is needed. Redtigerxyz  Talk 07:13, 28 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Support Ram Mandir- In common language it is called Ram Mandir only not, Carries a strong cultural and religious connotation, evoking emotions and historical significance for many Hindus; Changing it to Rama Temple doesnot only change its name but entire significance behind the Ram Mandir Movement and apart from the Mandir or Temple dispute the diety is known as Ram and Not Rama which is an english term and a imposed western concept.
 * Therefore it is requested not to change the Original Name. PMO(PD) (talk) 08:57, 30 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose Rama Temple - I oppose the change to "Rama Temple" because the norm in other Asian countries is to use the local language to describe both words. So you would say "Wat ..." instead of "... temple".
 * In most of north east asia there's also a tendency to transliterate the characters rather than translate.
 * If there should be a change then possibly "Rama Temple" should redirect to "Ram Mandir". Arind8 (talk) 11:54, 30 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose Move- Let it remain Ram Mandir per @Arind8, @PMO(PD), @Herostratus Pharaoh496 (talk) 12:27, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. Ayodhya Ram Mandir would also be fine, as this name seems to be commonly used. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:44, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. Tryin to make a change :-/ 08:25, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose as per WP:COMMONNAME Thanks! TheProEditor11 (talk) 12:20, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose because the WP:COMMONNAME is Ram Mandir even if the translation in English would be Rama Temple. CollationoftheWilling (talk) 12:48, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 February 2024
Could you please remove the honorific prefix 'Lord' as in "Lord Rama" or "Lord Ram" to retain Neutral Poin of View on Wikipedia? Thank you. Natsuikomin (talk) 00:08, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅ per MOS, HONORIFICS and NPOV. Thanks. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 05:34, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Remove the word "mythical" From the introduction statement
￼The ramayana is not a story or myth. It is part of Indian history 205.254.168.227 (talk) 18:59, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
 * It is a theological narrative, and therefore "myth" is a correct word - see Myth. It does not mean "false" as in the other meaning of the word.  We cannot treat it as a historical document, in exactly the same way as we do not with the Bible or indeed the Quran. Black Kite (talk) 19:08, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The same logic was not applied to the birthplace of Jesus of Nazareth. There is no proof outside Christian sources about the birthplace of Jesus. Still the Wikipedia article on Jesus do not use the words hypothetical or mythical.
 * Biblical stories of Jesus' birth reveal intriguing clues about his times, National Geographic, 16 December, 2021
 * Jesus, Wikipedia article on Jesus as of 2 February 2024.
 * Bsskchaitanya (talk) 09:55, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Jesus was almost certainly a real person. Rama is a mythological figure. Hemiauchenia (talk) 10:28, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
 * It seems you misread my comments. They were about lack of historicity of Jesus's birthplace beyond Christian sources. Bsskchaitanya (talk) 14:07, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
 * There isn't any equivalence; those two figures are treated very differently by reliable sources, and historians who have no belief in Jesus as a prophet recognize him to be a historical figure. The same isn't true of Rama; a more apt comparison to Jesus might be the Buddha, whose birth is treated similarly. Within Hinduism, Adi Shankara is a comparable figure whose historicity is generally agreed upon but whose biographical information is poorly known. Also: please note that we do not at any point present Jesus's birthplace as a statement of fact, instead attributing it to Christian religious texts that explicitly do so. The Ramayana has things to say about Rama's birthplace, which we mention; it doesn't say anything about the site where this temple has been built. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:59, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Your point convincing to some extent. However there are still some ancient religions that are practised today such as Hinduism, Buddhism and Zoroastrianism, etc. This article is about a temple of Rama at a place that is believed by Hindus to be this his birthplace. This claim was contested both by academia and in courts as well. We can add a sentence about that. Else giving undue weight to point out articles related to ancient religions with words such as hypothetical, mythical may be an unwanted bias that Wikipedia cast upon the readers. Is it part of Wikipedia guidelines to remind the readers that ancient religions are inferior, superstituous in nature??? If there is an article on Historicity of Rama then these arguments are perfectly fine. What is wrong in replacing the word mythical/hypothesized with words like popular belief, supposed to be, etc. The next sentence is my personal view. "In the name of countering Hindutva, it seems some people knowingly or unknowingly disrespecting Hinduism which is against the policy of Wikipedia." Coming back to the issue, you mentioned about Jesus. Are there any historical proofs about resurrection of Jesus or his ascension to heaven? Why can't we apply same logic in the Wikipedia article on Jesus and used the word mythical to describe those events? Bsskchaitanya (talk) 09:55, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
 * “Why can't we apply same logic in the Wikipedia article on Jesus”? Because we shouldn't discuss other articles here. The article on Jesus could in theory be bad. It might be good. I haven’t read it. It’s irrelevant.
 * ”What is wrong in replacing the word mythical/hypothesized with words like popular belief, supposed to be, etc.”? All words that you POV‑pushers suggest are wrong, because they leave a little bit of space for the pious interpretation that Rama is a historical figure. Jan Arvid Götesson (talk) 10:08, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Of course there aren't any "historical proofs about resurrection of Jesus or his ascension to heaven?" which is why nowhere in Wikipedia should those events be described as anything else but beliefs - see Resurrection of Jesus. Don't forget that the New Testament does not even mention resurrection, only "appearances" of Jesus to those of faith after his death. There aren't (or shouldn't be - there are so many articles that some may have slipped through) any writing in Wikipedia's voice that supernatural events actually happened. The historicity of an actual man called Jesus himself is a completely separate matter, and indeed an entire branch of theologistic history (Historicity of Jesus). Black Kite (talk) 10:11, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
 * ”What is wrong in replacing the word mythical/hypothesized with words like popular belief, supposed to be, etc.”? All words that you POV‑pushers suggest are wrong, because they leave a little bit of space for the pious interpretation that Rama is a historical figure. Jan Arvid Götesson (talk) 10:08, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Of course there aren't any "historical proofs about resurrection of Jesus or his ascension to heaven?" which is why nowhere in Wikipedia should those events be described as anything else but beliefs - see Resurrection of Jesus. Don't forget that the New Testament does not even mention resurrection, only "appearances" of Jesus to those of faith after his death. There aren't (or shouldn't be - there are so many articles that some may have slipped through) any writing in Wikipedia's voice that supernatural events actually happened. The historicity of an actual man called Jesus himself is a completely separate matter, and indeed an entire branch of theologistic history (Historicity of Jesus). Black Kite (talk) 10:11, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Ram Mandir Prana Pratishtha into Ram Mandir
Albeit a historical event, this is a one time event and therefore, can be made part of main page of the Temple, Anamdas (talk) 12:34, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Can be used to expand the article. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 12:49, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose Event is notable enough to have a separate article and is required to have a separate one to expand it in detail. The main article can have the gist of the event and a template showing link to this article. The Event was awaited for 500 Years and holds s great significance in Hinduism Homolego (talk) 18:49, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Hold for now Retain This is being treated as a historical event and can be expanded. Let us wait for the event to pass. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 17:16, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Significant event. Well-structured article with global coverage -- Redtigerxyz  Talk 17:09, 22 January 2024 (UTC)


 * I have yet to form an opinion as to whether the event is significant enough for a standalone article, but for practical reasons alone I suggest waiting to discuss this for a few weeks. Vanamonde93 (talk) 18:09, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Support Should be merged right away or else only more POV forks will emerge in a small period of time. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 10:20, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Hold for now There is lot of media coverage both in India and abroad related to this event. Better to wait for few more days to decide whether to create a separate article or not based on how significant enough the article can be from NPOV. Bsskchaitanya (talk) 10:41, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose It's a big event. There are a lot of articles and information available. IndicAmsha (talk) 11:05, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Support Keep NOTABLE. It is getting a lot of media coverage. Significant article to standalone since it is holding a great significance in Hinduism. Thanks! TheProEditor11 (talk) 14:46, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose Event is notable enough to have a separate article and is required to have a separate one to expand it in detail. The main article can have the gist of the event and a template showing link to this article. The Event was awaited for 500 Years and holds s great significance in Hinduism Homolego (talk) 18:48, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose Event is notable enough to have a separate article and is required to have a separate one to expand it in detail. The main article can have the gist of the event and a template showing link to this article. Thewikizoomer (talk) 06:00, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
 * DO NOT MERGE definitely the historic event in India, and this article needs to cover lots of aspects that has happened due to This event must be covered and expansion of this is needed. HarshalDhotre06 (talk) 09:22, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Merge Not a notable subject on its own. Should be merged here as soon as possible. CharlesWain (talk) 13:12, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose Event is notable enough to have a separate article and is required to have a separate one to expand it in detail. The main article can have the gist of the event and a template showing link to this article Homolego (talk) 18:47, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Merge a blatant POV fork. Ratnahastin  (talk) 09:17, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Merge per above. At this point better to cover as a section of the main article. Brandmeistertalk  10:43, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Wait as this is an article about a recent event, we should not rush to get it deleted/merged. Give it some time to see if this event has lasting effect. 109.38.134.82 (talk) 14:07, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep The event received enough coverage to get a seperate article. We have so many articles that are a one time event. Shall all be merged only because they are a one time event?  ShaanSengupta  Talk 04:44, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose/Retain/DO NOT MERGE Lots of media coverage both in India and abroad. Notable enough to have a separate article. 2409:40E3:6D:A622:FCBB:1A43:B016:853 (talk) 19:28, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Wait/Merge too much FoW, it doesn't have enough substance to stand on its own as an article but echoes of event still to emerge Miximon (talk) 06:17, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Heavily Oppose - this was a big event. Quotes from the dignitaries speeches, pics, who all were invited can be added. Also per @IndicAmsha @Homolego @HarshalDhotre06 Pharaoh496 (talk) 12:30, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose on the basis that there is scope for the article to be further expanded. CollationoftheWilling (talk) 12:50, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose: Significant event, merging will either cost the structure of the destination article or the details of source article, or both. User4edits (talk) 14:17, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 25 January 2024
Remove the sentence "and also that there is clear evidence that the disputed site was believed by Hindus as the Janmabhoomi (birthsite) of Rama." from Ram Mandir.

See Babri_Masjid. There is no evidence for it. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 19:35, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: this appears to be a controversial request. Feel free to re-activate the template if consensus develops for it. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:58, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Nobody has disputed it so far. See the section on Babri_Masjid. It is not a controversial edit since it is being made as per consensus across Wikipedia. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 13:06, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The language in question was added within the past week by another editor, so I can't see it as uncontroversial. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:09, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Updating my request.Change:


 * The Supreme Court in its landmark jugdement concluded that the underlying structure beneath the mosque was not an Islamic structure, and also that there is clear evidence that the disputed site was believed by Hindus as the Janmabhoomi (birthsite) of Rama.

To:


 * The Supreme Court in its landmark jugdement concluded that the underlying structure beneath the mosque was not an Islamic structure. However, the court concluded that no evidence was found that a non-Islamic structure was specifically demolished for the construction of the Babri Masjid.

Abhishek0831996 (talk) 13:29, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree this is in line with all other related Wikipedia articles and the provided source. Kindly implement the recent suggestion above. CharlesWain (talk) 06:01, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
 * , any response. A check of the article history suggests you added the clause being considered here for removal. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 22:48, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi Firefangledfeathers, It was me who made that changed. Please give me some time to respond. Thanks for notifying me. Bsskchaitanya (talk) 07:34, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Ayodhya verdict: The ASI findings Supreme Court spoke about in its judgment, India Today, 4 April 2022


 * Judgment Summary: Ayodhya Title Dispute - Supreme Court Observer, (Extract from the official archive of the Supreme Court of India)


 * Judgment Summary: Ayodhya Title Dispute - Supreme Court Observer, (Extract from the official archive of the Supreme Court of India)
 * (Note: The inner courtyard implies the Babri Masjid and its immediate surroundings.)
 * (Note: The inner courtyard implies the Babri Masjid and its immediate surroundings.)
 * (Note: The inner courtyard implies the Babri Masjid and its immediate surroundings.)
 * (Note: The inner courtyard implies the Babri Masjid and its immediate surroundings.)


 * Ayodhya verdict: Six key takeaways from the 1045-page Supreme Court judgment, The News Minute, 9 November 2019.
 * Firefangledfeathers Please go through the above references while considering deletion of the edit made by me.Bsskchaitanya (talk) 08:52, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Firefangledfeathers Please go through the above references while considering deletion of the edit made by me.Bsskchaitanya (talk) 08:52, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Firefangledfeathers Please go through the above references while considering deletion of the edit made by me.Bsskchaitanya (talk) 08:52, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Firefangledfeathers Please go through the above references while considering deletion of the edit made by me.Bsskchaitanya (talk) 08:52, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Firefangledfeathers Please go through the above references while considering deletion of the edit made by me.Bsskchaitanya (talk) 08:52, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

If the court has already determined that there was a non-Islamic structure before the mosque, then what does it mean when they state that no evidence was found that it was specifically demolished? It was not the court's job to determine that. How could it determine that anyway, and why does it matter? There is a mosque at the site that by several records indicate that Muslims specifically knew was believed by Hindus to be Ram Janmabhoomi. What was the intention behind building the mosque there? It doesn't matter if it was demolished or not. The sentence, as of now, is perfect; there's no need to push a point of view unnecessarily. 2409:40E3:C:E2B7:1827:D25F:744B:A31D (talk) 06:32, 28 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Your personal analysis is irrelevant. Many temples are in ruins for centuries thus it is easily possible to create a monument over it without destroying anything. Scroll is reliable source for this information. Also see these sources which reported the same: Abhishek0831996 (talk) 07:18, 28 January 2024 (UTC)


 * destruction of temple is irrelevant.the main point is mosque was at the site hindus believe to be ram janmabhoomi. rama was a mythological figure or not dosent matter. i dont understand why would anyone try to remove that info from the statement and replace it with another pov push.@Firefangledfeathers please do not omit that information.it might be acceptable if any additional information about destroyed structure is addded without sacrificing other critical stuff. 2409:40E3:C:E2B7:1827:D25F:744B:A31D (talk) 07:55, 28 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Agree on not using Scroll as an authoritative source. The article in question specifically has a click-bait title and is a heavily personal opinion and not reflective of SC commentary. Use raw text of the ruling instead https://main.sci.gov.in/supremecourt/2010/36350/36350_2010_1_1502_18205_Judgement_09-Nov-2019.pdf Lycanlucia (talk) 08:41, 29 January 2024 (UTC)


 * If anyone is POV pushing then that's you, by making attempts to fail this request without making any valid argument based on reliable sources. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 14:58, 28 January 2024 (UTC)


 * The above IP sock has been blocked and Lycanlucia (telling us to use primary source) is an SPA. Can you implement the edit? Its been a week. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 07:27, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I can not, as it does not appear there is consensus for the change. You could try and reach some compromise with Bssk, wait for more input from others, or seek more dispute resolution. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:47, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I do agree with the suggestion by Firefangledfeathers and it would be better to have input from more editors. The sources provided by me above seem to confirm that the Supreme court agreed that there is clear evidence that Hindus believed that area to be birthplace of Rama. Bsskchaitanya (talk) 09:37, 2 February 2024 (UTC)


 * It seems is not aware that the page is no longer fully protected. I have implemented the edit. NavjotSR (talk) 07:45, 3 February 2024 (UTC)


 * NavjotSR Still consensus has not been reached about that edit. Please go through the valid sources provided by me above. It is better to reach a consensus and let the edit be done with a nod by administrators. Bsskchaitanya (talk) 12:32, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Alternative words or sentence structures other than hypothetical / mythical
Suggestions: But feel free to add further suggestions. CollationoftheWilling (talk) 14:53, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
 * the spiritual birthplace of Rama
 * the location described as the birthplace of Rama in ancient Hindu literature
 * the birthplace of Rama in Hinduism
 * Where how exactly is the site of Ram Mandir the location described as the birthplace of Rama in ancient Hindu literature? The Ramayana makes no reference to a specific location of Rama's birth. Hemiauchenia (talk) 15:19, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The Valmiki Ramayana is the primary source.
 * Furthermore numerous secondary sources discuss the location in a similar manner, for example:
 * "The Ram Mandir, a temple being built on the spot in the city of Ayodhya believed to be the birthplace of the Hindu deity Ram — also transcribed as Rama — is pivotal to the story and evolution of post-independence India."
 * https://thediplomat.com/2024/01/what-the-ram-mandirs-consecration-means-for-hindus/
 * Also see the following for a citation on "Hindu literature":
 * "The faith and belief of Hindus that the land in Ayodhya, where the Babri Masjid once stood, is the birthplace of Lord Ram was based on scriptures and sacred religious books, including 'Valmiki Ramayana' and 'Skanda Purana', and it cannot be held as "groundless", the Supreme Court said on Saturday."
 * https://www.business-standard.com/article/pti-stories/hindus-faith-in-lord-ram-s-birthplace-based-on-valmiki-ramayana-skanda-purana-says-sc-119110901379_1.html CollationoftheWilling (talk) 02:30, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
 * @CollationoftheWilling @Bsskchaitanya, I write to both of you, because the previous section (Remove the word "mythical" From the introduction statement) and this section are about the same thing: the first beginning of a case of civil POV (point of view) pushing. Your point of view that you want to push is to water down the description that the birth of Rama is a myth, a religious belief about something that didn’t happen. Stop now. You are wasting your time and other people’s time. The first sentences of the article don’t need editing.
 * There is one line of reasoning that is pointless in all discussions: “What about?” Stop asking “What about Jesus and Mohammed?” The only relevant discussion here is this: Is the article Ram Mandir correct? I would prefer if the resurrection of Jesus were called “the resurrection myth”, but the fact that those words are not used in Wikipedia has no bearing on the editing of Ram Mandir.
 * I have the same message for the contributors who don’t log in: Stop waisting time. Jan Arvid Götesson (talk) 22:27, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
 * This is article on a temple and not on historicity of Rama. This seems to be a case of WP:UNDUE. The specific location (inner courtyard of Babri masjid) being believed by Hindus as birthplace of Rama was observed by European visitors during middle ages and even Supreme court of India accepted that point. Whether right or wrong is a Hindu belief. To maintain WP:NPOV, the words mythical may be replaced with 'believed to be' or 'supposed to be'. Religion itself is set of beliefs, however convinving or ridiculuous they may be to a rational mind. Bsskchaitanya (talk) 10:07, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
 * 1. The word "myth" is not actually used on the Ramayana article, probably because it is controversial.
 * 2. It conveys incorrectly that the location is mythical, whereas it is the telling of the story that is mythical. The majority of the locations in Hindu "mythology" exist in real life, and it is entirely likely that many of the characters are also based in real life even if the portrayal and events are questionable.
 * I also thought about using words such as "legendary" (used to describe the Robin Hood stuff).
 * You need to keep in mind that this topic heavily related to a dispute with Muslims, so everyone should take care not to privilege the Muslims unfairly by being more "politically correct" with them but not with the Hindu side.
 * If you look at the opening paragraph of the myth article:
 * "Myth is a genre of folklore or theology consisting primarily of narratives that play a fundamental role in a society, such as foundational tales or origin myths. For folklorists, historians, philosophers or theologians this is very different from the use of "myth" which simply meaning something that is not true. Instead, the truth value of a myth is not a defining criterion."
 * While I accept the first definition without contest, the widespread use of the second definition is objectable. Not just because the Muslim side is usually about to get more politically correct words used, but also because the idea that these stories are 100% false is wrong, in many cases these "myths" are build up from oral tradition originating from a real event - such as myths about a "great flood" found throughout the world likely originating from a tsunami.
 * Looking at how other articles on Hinduism are worded in Wikipedia, something akin to the following might be the best sentence construct:
 * "The temple is the location given in ancient and modern Hindu literature as the birthplace of Rama". CollationoftheWilling (talk) 07:27, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
 * "The temple is the location given in ancient and modern Hindu literature as the birthplace of Rama". CollationoftheWilling (talk) 07:27, 4 February 2024 (UTC)


 * I find former lead (only first paragraph) to be much better. NavjotSR (talk) 07:40, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
 * NavjotSR The first paragraph of the version shareed by you seems better from an NPOV perspective. Bsskchaitanya (talk) 07:43, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't see if any consensus was held to change that part of the lead in the first place. I have restored it now. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 16:58, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Merge proposal
I propose merging Consecration of the Ram Mandir into Ram Mandir. I think the content in Consecration of the Ram Mandir can easily be explained in the context of Ram Mandir, and a merge would not cause any article-size or weighting problems in Ram Mandir. Pepper Beast    (talk)  23:06, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Support Over the same reasons I stated at Talk:Ram_Mandir/Archive_3. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 07:36, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Support --Æo (talk) 20:01, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Support per nom and as stated in the previous merge proposal, it can be used for article expansion. Standalone article is not justified when it can be easily merged to the parent article. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 00:26, 11 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose - Enough details to be a standalone article, Notable event, enough citations.. TheProEditor11 (talk) 05:54, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose - The event achieved significant coverage in media and got huge attention by Hindus all over the world. There is much scope to develop the article on consecration. So, it is better to wait for some time before taking any merger decision right now. Bsskchaitanya (talk) 12:24, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose - It's a significant enough moment to deserve a standalone article. The article isn't some useless stub, either. There are plenty of sources that could be used to expand it. Cessaune   [ talk ]   17:31, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment discussion
I have moved these comments back to their own section after they seemed to be accidentally moved into the RFC above. The assignment for this page seems to have been canceled. Perception312 (talk) 00:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)


 * That's a large number of new editors that will need ipa alerts. Doug Weller  talk 08:16, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
 * And can't edit this article. Doug Weller  talk 10:38, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
 * My mistake, most students haven't been assigned an article. Still... Doug Weller  talk 10:39, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
 * This is a terrible article for a wiki education course; I do not have the bandwidth to speak with the instructor, but someone should. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:09, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree, the subject is controversial and the article has a very contentious history, not a good idea to have this article be assigned to students. Ratnahastin  (talk) 07:19, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I've emailed the instructor to ask them to direct the student's efforts elsewhere. Ian (Wiki Ed) (talk) 16:51, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 February 2024
Kindly remove word mythical. it's historical not mythical please do correction as early as possible 103.114.211.249 (talk) 07:29, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 08:01, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 February 2024
First sentence: Ram Mandir is under construction to be changed to is constricted 2600:8800:17A4:CE00:8119:1DE6:9A60:B334 (talk) 23:20, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Note an existing BBC reference from last month says only the ground floor is complete. Jamedeus (talk) 00:57, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Important to have Inauguration date in the lede
The inauguration date has been mentioned as an important milestone in multiple High quality sources that have reported on Ram temple. Also the inaguration event was widely reported in top newspapers across the world, and therefore is of Wiki significance to be included in the lede. The language also needs to conform to widely reported top sources as below:
 * The temple was inaugurated (url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-68003095) on 22 January 2024 after a "prana pratishtha" (consecration) ceremony.

(url=https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/22/world/asia/india-ram-temple-ayodhya.html) (url=https://www.reuters.com/world/india/india-counts-down-opening-grand-ram-temple-ayodhya-2024-01-22)

Thanks RogerYg (talk) 19:38, 1 March 2024 (UTC) RogerYg (talk) 19:38, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Remove "partially constructed" from lede

 * Needs to be removed as per WP:UNDUE


 * None the top published News articles on Ram Mandir consider "partially constructed" as an important detail to be mentioned in their lede, therefore Wiki page also must not give UNDUE significance to "partially constructed" to include it in the lede first sentence.

Hi Dharmadhyaksha, I appreciate your edit to "partially constructed", which is better than "under construction," but it's not needed in the lede as per WP:RS, WP:Notability & WP:UNDUE. Thanks RogerYg (talk) 20:20, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

RogerYg (talk) 20:14, 1 March 2024 (UTC) RogerYg (talk) 20:14, 1 March 2024 (UTC)


 * So if you want to remove "partially constructed" do you want to go back to the old wording of "under construction"? Or do you want to delete it completely? And if deleted, how do you want to handle the "under construction" part in the infobox as well as various paragraphs later on in the article that talk about how the temple is not really fully constructed? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {Talk / Edits} 07:07, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

RfC: Second sentence
What qualifiers should be used in the second sentence of the lead paragraph (which discusses the temple's relation to Ram Janmabhoomi)? one or both options can be selected:

Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:33, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
 * A. Many Hindus believe/according to Hindu beliefs, etc.
 * B. "the mythical birthplace of Rama" or alternatives, such as reputed, alleged, supposed etc.

Polling

 * A and B I definitely think there is a need to use qualifiers regarding this topic due to the fact this is religious belief regarding a figure largely regarded to be mythological by most scholars. I think "mythical" is perhaps not the best word, but I would support using some kind of qualifier like supposed or reputed before indicate that this is belief and not some kind of expert consensus, but I would oppose "hypothetical" as this makes it sounds like some sort of rational hypothesis grounded in historical fact rather than a religious belief. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:33, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
 * B per MOS:WEASEL. Rather than providing a weasel term, I think it will be better to provide a clearer and accurate sentence such as mythical/hypothetical/reputed term. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 02:46, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
 * B and use the word "hypothetical". Abhishek0831996 (talk) 14:56, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
 * A, since the belief is clearly attributed to Hindus by one of the two sources cited for the sentence (the other simply referring to the location as Rama's birthplace). Perception312 (talk) 20:48, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
 * B with the word "hypothetical". Ratnahastin  (talk) 07:16, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * A Ayodhya being Rama's birthplace is Hindu belief. Attribution of the belief to Hindus is important in the sentence, as it may not be a belief outside Hinduism or Indians in general. Merely saying it is "hypothetical" does not explicitly restrict the hypothesis to Hindu belief.-- Redtigerxyz Talk 04:08, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
 * A this being Rama's birthplace is Hindu belief per Redtigerxyz. Like Hemiauchenia, I think that "hypothetical" is wrong and unhelpful, not only does it fail to put the belief into its Hindu context, it also makes it sounds like some sort of rational hypothesis grounded in historical fact. Pincrete (talk) 17:57, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
 * A because this argument is solely based on beliefs of Hindus since many centuries. The same was attested by neutral visitors to Ayodhya during medieval ages. There were two more important temples to Hindus in Ayodhya, namely, Swargadwar (Gateway to heaven) and Treta-ka-Thakur (Lord of [Treta yuga]). Those were also converted to mosques. The point is that the location of Janmasthan, Swargadwar and Treta-ka-Thakur are held with significance by Hindus as per their belief system. Therefore, it is better to avoid terms like hypothetical/mythical as this is an article on Ram mandir at Ayodhya to commemorate his birth at his Janmasthan and NOT on historicity of Rama. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bsskchaitanya (talk • contribs)
 * A and B in a sense. The exact wording right now is "Many Hindus believe that it is located at the site of Ram Janmabhoomi, the mythical birthplace of Rama, a principal deity of Hinduism.", and this appears to be correct and appropriate. This a religious-faith belief, it is  shared by all Hindus, Ram Janmabhoomi  mythical, and the identification of it with Ram Mandi  hypothetical, but that is already indicated by the entire sentence construction. If "Many Hindus" were removed (and it is not weasel wording but a description of a fact that it's a wide but not universal Hindu belief), then it might need to be made clearer that it's a hypothetical identification, but that just leads us back to weasel: whose hypothesis?  The fix to the borderline-weasel problem would be to more narrowly identify the "many Hindus" as to some particular sect(s) or whatever. Someone with more subject-matter knowledge would have to figure out how to do that.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:30, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Option - A According to Wikipedia's policy WP:RNPOV, it recommends utilizing religion's sacred texts as primary sources and relying on modern archaeological, historical, and scientific works as secondary and tertiary sources. In the context of the belief in Hindu sacred texts (Ramayana etc.) asserting that Ram was born at a particular location and the contemporary archaeological survey conducted by the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) suggesting the existence of the Ram Mandir in medieval times, it is advisable to adhere to Option A. - SpunkyGeek  (talk)
 * Both, per above. The belief is a Hindu belief, it's not universal, and it's about a figure/deity from mythology, not history. All those qualifiers are non-controversially accepted by scholars; omitting any of them would be a violation of WP:NPOV. Vanamonde93 (talk) 00:32, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
 * C Proposing alternative rather than accepting such nuisance option. Shree Raamjanmabhumi is birth place of Great king Ram revered by billions for his great doings and democratical and people's kingdom. Leaving the place of Pavitra bhoomi ,just a belief or hypothetical concept is such a nuisance. Actually Babri masjid was illegally occupied in the place of the birth place of Ram. There is no concrete evidence that it was older but there many concrete and true evidences and as seen by our ancestors, the birth place of Ram is the where now temple has been.
 * Both - as incorporated in the present sentence. Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!  05:12, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

 * C: Proposing option C as "It is located at the site of Ram Janmabhoomi, which many Hindus believe to be the birthplace of Rama, a principal deity of Hinduism." §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {Talk / Edits} 04:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Adi Shankaracharya's visit
Hi,

I notice that that you have cited mention of Adi Sankara's visit to Ayodhya has no due weight while reverting an edit made by me in that article. However, I would like to bring to your notice that Adi Sankara holds high importance in the history of Hinduism and its revival. He is credited with identification of many teertha kshetras such as Jyotirlingas, setting up Dasanami sampradaya, writing commentaries on many important Hindu works, propagating Advaita etc. He visited many holyplaces across India (and Pakistan). From a scholarly perspective it can indicate for existence of such site in that area and how Ayodhya was revered by Hindus from other parts of India. For example, he visited Draksharama (nearby my hometown) which indicates the ancient Siva temple there was prominent even during 8th century. We can notice inscriptions by Cholas in that temple. However, this temple being in South survived the vicissitudes of time unlike the temples in other parts of India which suffered from iconoclasm and sometimes complete destruction. Therefore, information that Adi Sankara visited Ayodhya way back in 8th century indicates it was an important pilgrimage site even during that era. In that section of the article, my intention was to provide information about Rama's significance and subsequent importance of Ayodhya as a pilgrimage site owing to its relation with Rama's life events. So, it is my request to consider your reversion. Any suggestions are welcome. Thank you and have a nice day. Bsskchaitanya (talk) 06:08, 6 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Hi @Bsskchaitanya You have to provide those scholarly perspectives, without which one cannot see why the content is WP:DUE — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 09:45, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you DaxServer for reconsidering the status of revert. Here are some references about Adi Sankara's visit to Ayodhya.
 * Life and works of Sankara is known to scholars only through Hagiograhies on him which goes by name  (lit. Omnidirectional Victory of Sankara). I can add subsequent ones soon. Bsskchaitanya (talk) 18:14, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Two problems. There is no mention of a temple here. Nor is there any significant activity done at Ayodhya. (So it won't belong even on the Ayodhya page.) -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:48, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The point is not about Adi Sankara visiting any temple but on Ayodhya being a pilgrimage site in 8th century CE. The above pilgrimage sites mentioned are very popular among Hindus since old ages. Sankara has visited all seven scared cities during his foot journey. I am bit busy in personal life and in due course of time I will gather more information to make changes in Ayodhya, Draksharama and Sankara pages as well. -- Bsskchaitanya (talk) 21:08, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * @DaxServer Here are few more references from different authors who mentioned the same about Sankara's visit to Ayodhya.
 * @DaxServer Here are few more references from different authors who mentioned the same about Sankara's visit to Ayodhya.






 * — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bsskchaitanya (talk • contribs) 12:45, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 * What did he do in Ayodhya during his halt, or something relevant to this temple site article or perhaps Ram Janmabhoomi, apart from passing thru Ayodhya? If the halt or the passage route is WP:DUE, it will certainly belong in Adi Shankara article. — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 17:57, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 * All the places visited/passed by Sankara were of religious significance to Astika Hindus, i.e. they are Kshetras. Therefore, in this Ram mandir page, the section about significance of Rama and Ayodhya can have a sentence about Sankara passing by Ayodhya during his all-India tour. Bsskchaitanya (talk) 06:18, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Can you provide sources? — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 07:44, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * + 1 to @Bsskchaitanya BlackOrchidd (talk) 08:10, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Bsskchaitanya, do you realize what hagiography means? Those "biographies" are entirely fictional, and have no value a sources with regard to the 8th century, or the life of Adi Shankara. At best, they reflect beliefs and concerns of the 15th-17th century, and were created and used to support religious and political claims - exactly like you are doing now. Joshua Jonathan -  Let's talk!  05:18, 17 March 2024 (UTC)


 * The text cited by @Bsskchaitanya mentions a visit to Ayodhya, but does not refer a visit to the Rama Mandir per se. This is UNDUE. Redtigerxyz  Talk 05:33, 17 March 2024 (UTC)


 * @Joshua You mean Adi Sankara was fictional or his biographies? Can you provide those "other" reliable sources that gave scholars information about life and works of Adi Sankara? Every religious book or related texts have been created to support religious claims but that does not mean all religions have to be banned. Please focus on the topic rather than making personal accusations. Bsskchaitanya (talk) 09:41, 17 March 2024 (UTC)


 * His biographies. There are no reliable sources about his life; see Adi Shankara. Regarding his works, most works attributed to him are not written/composed by him; seeAdi Shankara. Regarding "accusations": I'm not saying you do this intentionally; on the contrary, probably. But that shows precisely the power of texts like these: they are so compelling, that people take them as factional accounts, instead of fictional. Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!  11:50, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I understand your argument. But, dont you think it applies to most of religious figures in the Past. There are no reliable biograhies about life of Jesus outside Christian sources. Even the work by Josephus has vague references and some even doubt that the work got tampered. What you said is true that Adi Sankara is so influential and many works till date get instant value (and reverence) among Hindus if his name gets associated with them. Even the life of Basava, a Lingayat saint and a great social reformer during middle ages was based on hagiographies like Basava Purana of Palkuriki Somanatha. Perhaps the way how history is narrated and documented is different in oriental and occidental cultures. If it is not WP:UNDUE then atleast we may mention that 'as per so and so hagiography it was said that Sankara visited Ayodhya'. Bsskchaitanya (talk) 14:07, 20 March 2024 (UTC)


 * It is. Scholars agree on only three facts of Jesus' life: he existed, he was baptized, ad he was crucified. That's based om texts written a few decades after his death. Shankara's hagiographies, on the other hand, were composed ca. 600 years after his death; it's completely irrelevan to the Ram Mandir that one of those hagiographies states, in passing, that Shankara visited Ayodhya - even the more when even at the time they were composed Ayodhya may not have been a place of pilgrimage yet. Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!  16:40, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Except work by Flavius Josephus there is no credible information about Jesus that documented events of 1 CE era. Even then, is there any archeological or historical evidence that Jesus flew was indeed son of Jewish God? There is next to none. So can we then say Jesus as 'mythical' Son of a 'mythical' God of Jews?. From scholarly point of view it may be apt but in an Encyclopaedia article such strict scrutiny may not be necessary.
 * Regarding Sankara's passage via Ayodhya I doubt your claim that Ayodhya may not be a pilgrimage site yet. A non-Hindu may not even understand the significance of of kshetras such as Kedarnath, Gaya, Puri, Srisailam among Astika Hindus. There is plethora of sources; both primary and secondary that mention about these pilgrimage sites. As I replied earlier to DaxServer, I will try to gather more information about Sankara's visit to Ayodhya. Bsskchaitanya (talk) 10:29, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Why are we talking about Jesus' article on this talk page? — DaxServer (t·m·e·c) 11:17, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * @DaxServer To establish analogy in the arguments BlackOrchidd (talk) 04:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Add Holi as Festivals
Under the Religion section there can be a row for Festivals like in articles of other temples and add Holi there. https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/holi-ram-mandir-ayodhya-rangotsav-at-ram-mandir-devotees-celebrate-holi-at-ayodhya-temple-5306999 MultyMetaverses (talk) 18:07, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 April 2024
Add few texts at the end: Original: "The site of the temple is the subject of communal tensions between Hindus and Muslims in India, as it is the former location of the Babri Masjid mosque, which was built between 1528 and 1529. The idols of Rama and Sita were placed in the mosque in 1949, before it was attacked and demolished in 1992.[11][12][13]" Change: "The site of the temple is the subject of communal tensions between Hindus and Muslims in India, as it is the former location of the Babri Masjid mosque, which was built between 1528 and 1529. The idols of Rama and Sita were placed in the mosque in 1949, before it was attacked and demolished in 1992 by a mob organized by Vajpayee, LK Advani, Narendra Modi.[11][12][13]"

Reference: https://www.npr.org/2019/04/25/711412924/nearly-27-years-after-hindu-mob-destroyed-a-mosque-the-scars-in-india-remain-dee Sirole123 (talk) 16:54, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Rejected per WP:UNDUE Undue controversial details to be avoided in lead, Also violates WP:BLP of living persons, who have been cleared of such allegations in the courts. Also note WP:NOT NEWS — Preceding unsigned comment added by RogerYg (talk • contribs) 08:45, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Important Visitor numbers need to be added
Important information widely reported in the WP:RS sources on Visitor numbers need to added.

https://www.businesstoday.in/markets/top-story/story/rs-85000-cr-makeover-ram-temple-at-ayodhya-could-attract-over-50-million-tourists-per-year-says-jefferies-414346-2024-01-22 Rs 85,000-cr makeover': Ram temple at Ayodhya could attract over 50 million tourists per year, says Jefferies Jan 22, 2024

Global brokerage firm Jefferies said in a report that the Ram temple at Ayodhya could lead to "unlocking of India's tourism potential" by attracting over 50 million tourists a year.

"The grand opening of the Ram temple at Ayodhya by PM Modi on Jan 22nd, is a big religious event. It also comes with a large economic impact as India gets a new tourist spot which could attract over 50 million tourists per year.

https://www.cnbctv18.com/travel/culture/ayodhya-ram-temple-50-million-visitors-expected-each-year-surpassing-tirupati-mecca-and-vatican-18880731.htm January 24, 2024 Ayodhya's Ram Temple may draw 50 million visitors annually, to surpass Tirupati, Mecca, and Vatican

With an expected 50 million visitors per year, the Ram Mandir is likely to become one of the top religious pilgrimage sites of the world.

Also, the 10 billion reported economic development plan The temple construction has been accompanied by a $10 billion transformation plan for Ayodhya, "encompassing a new airport, revamped railway station," and township development," stimulating various economic activities. https://www.wionews.com/india-news/ayodhyas-over-10bn-revamp-could-generate-around-3bn-in-tax-revenue-for-up-682522

RogerYg (talk) 08:50, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
 * All these are predictions (WP:CRYSTALBALL). I'd say wait for an year when the annual reports come with specific and exact data. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 10:49, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay, yes, we can wait for a year till actual annual data comes. I have removed the projected annual numbers from the lead accordingly.

We do have some exact numbers that can be added instead.
 * "After the opening of the Ram Temple to the public on Jan 23, 2024, Ayodhya has welcomed 2.4 million visitors in just 12 days."
 * https://travel.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/ministry/ayodhya-records-2-4-mn-visitors-in-12-days-govt-eyeing-historic-site-development-schemes-modi/107427042
 * As these are exact numbers, I have added them accordingly. Thanks RogerYg (talk) 22:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, but ET is not reliable per WP:TOI. If you could get more cites describing the same values, we can consider. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 13:32, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay, we also have cites from WP:Reliable sources. We can mention those numbers for better reliability
 * WP:INDIANEXP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#The_Indian_Express
 * Five lakh visitors and counting: On Day 1 after Ayodhya Ram Temple inauguration, a rush for ‘first darshan’ https://indianexpress.com/article/india/ayodhya-ram-mandir-opens-public-devotees-9123100/
 * "A little over a month since the inauguration of the Ram temple.. the temple is witnessing an average of 1-to-1.5 lakh pilgrims on a daily basis" https://indianexpress.com/article/india/ayodhya-ram-temple-visit-guidelines-what-to-carry-aarti-timings-9211777/
 * Thanks for helping improve the article. RogerYg (talk) 03:58, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

About removing repeated and provoking statements in the article
I felt sorry for not discussing before editing in the article. But my acts were totally justified as the same paragraphs have been copied and pasted in the article multiple times with same citations. The dispute and the judicial judgement related to Ayodhya Ram Mandir is already there in History section in serial manner from medieval to modern day but it has been intentionally copy pasted this portion of history in the second paragraph and in the first paragraph of history section. As far as Ram is concerned Hindus believe him as a historical figure in Indian history. Ayodhya is not a mythical place but a historical place as per the epic Valmiki Ramayana. There are independent articles for the Ayodhya dispute, and other such stuffs. This article is about the Mandir (Hindu temple). Populating it with unwarranted topics only making it lenthy and lethargic to read. Prabhu Prasad Tripathy (talk) 15:26, 27 April 2024 (UTC)


 * No, they are not justified. We do not WP:CENSOR info that we WP:DONTLIKEIT. Hindus may believe Ram is a historical figure, but this is an encyclopedia, not an faith-based free hosting website. "Unwarranted" is in the eye of the beholder; a lot of people think that the Ram Mandir is a disgrace, a token of Hindu intolerance. Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!  15:54, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * So you mean copy pasting the same lines with same citations in multiple section of article is justified? There are already pages which dedicated for dispute matter. Please do review the article. And by the way Hindus are quite tolerant and hospitable. Prabhu Prasad Tripathy (talk) 18:58, 27 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Please provide examples. Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!  19:39, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The whole paragraph after the intro section starting with "The site of the temple has been the subject of communal tensions" in the article has been copied with the same citations in the first paragraph of History section where as in the history section there was already these incidents mentioned from medieval period to modern time serially. Prabhu Prasad Tripathy (talk) 19:53, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * In the same paragraph it mentions,"The idols of Rama and Sita were placed in the mosque in 1949". It's factually wrong. The idols of Rama and his siblings were placed there. There was no idol of Sita there. Prabhu Prasad Tripathy (talk) 20:00, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

The intro to the History-section is quite long indeed, but that is no excuse to remove it altogether, even less to remove all info regarding the controversies from the lead. Joshua Jonathan -  Let's talk!  20:58, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Regarding the lead, per MOS:LEAD it should provide a "summary of [the article's] most important contents", which definitely includes the controversy over its location and history. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 15:23, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 May 2024
Dew1609 (talk) 10:04, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

The history is half cooked and information missing on the Sri Ram temple. There was a proof of existance of temple 500 years back. but teh history start as Bari masjid demolotion will create unnecessory conroversy and will deep rooted eneymity betwen community. for the good sense and huminy in consideration appreciate if the demolition part removed.
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Charliehdb (talk) 10:40, 15 May 2024 (UTC)