Talk:Ramakrishna/Archive 10

Removal of sourced info
you removed a lot of sourced info; partly because it belongs in another section, according to you; partly because it is already covered. Unfortunately, you didn't bother to actually move the info you thought to belong somewhere else to the appropriate section, but just deleted it; you also deleted info which, contrary to your statement, was not covered elsewhere in the article. And this removed not just Kripal's argument, but also othe rinformation. Given this, your main objective seems to be to remove Kripal. And please discuss articles at the talkpage, not at offline discussions, as you proposed at here. Thanks. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!  18:56, 20 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Hi Joshua Jonathan - You are wrong that I want to remove Kripal, but rather give him appropriate coverage, given his minority views of Ramakrishna and the critical push back on his scholarship regarding Kali's Child. The book, Kali's Child, has a whole section within the Ramakrishna article, which gives Kripal's views, summarizes his book, and offers opposing views - we don't need to reiterate those same views in various sections of the RK article. There is also a whole separate article on Kali's Child.


 * I would like to open this discussion to Wikipedia editors who know nothing of Ramakrishna, to discuss if the numerous citations of Kripal in this article, outside the KC section, are excessive and promotional. I think so.


 * Let's go through my edits section by section - I'll put the deletions in quotes:


 * Bhakti and Tantra




 * [1] I removed this quote as it's a reiteration of points made earlier in this section and throughout the article. Nobody argues that RK was a Jnani or Advaitist. There is no need for this quote – as it is saying the same things as the four quotes above it.




 * [2] I removed this paragraph as the points it makes belong to the KC section or the KC article – I didn’t move it to the KC section or KC article, as it’s the same argument that's already put forth there. Just because it's sourced doesn't mean it needs to be in the article. BTW - I've not touched the KC article or Kripal's personal article.


 * The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna




 * [3] The additional quote from Kripal just reiterates the first sentence and is only promotional for Kripal. Isn't "principal source" and "central text" the same thing? Is it needed, or is it promotional?




 * [4] The second reference to the Lex Hixon quote, number 81, points to Kripal but is, in fact, a quote from Hixon. The second sentence is just another reiteration of what should be in the KC section. There is no need to reiterate the KC argument and rebuttal in every possible section.


 * God-realization


 * [5] The whole paragraph after first sentence is just another vehicle for the Kali’s Child debate, which belongs to the KC section or article, and doesn't fit in this section. Perhaps the KC section needs to be expanded to include those quotes you feel are important, but I deleted as either repetitive or non-sequester to the section.


 * [6] You also deleted my additional wording: "He [Ramakrishna] believed the Vedic teachings that the various religions of the world, through a variety of spiritual practices, lead to God-realization." That point was not made elsewhere and is important for understanding RK and the movement.


 * Islam and Christianity


 * [7] The last sentence is a promotional quote for Kripal and is not relevant. Kripal is not a Muslim scholar and how the various other religions of the world might view RK's experiences is not relevant for this article or section.


 * Joshua Jonathan, I hope you will take my comments seriously. I am a serious editor and do not add or delete things without serious consideration. If you look at my changes objectively, I would hope you agree that the arguments for Kripal's views and Kali's Child need to be in the Kali's Child section and article. Thank you. Ellis408 (talk) 21:58, 20 July 2019 (UTC)


 * thank you for your extensive reply; highly appreciated. I'll read them in detail later (just out of bed). Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  05:41, 21 July 2019 (UTC)


 * ad [1], Advaita Vedanta, diff, edit-summary Deleted "Ramakrishna rejected Advaita Vedanta in favour of Shakti Tantra" as it's a reiteration of a point made earlier in this section and elsewhere.. Yes, they're saying more or less the same thng - so why remove this specific quote? The point is in the combination with the next subsection, "Transformation into neo-Vedantin": Ramakrishna was presented as an Advaitin by Vivekenanda and the like; scholars have correctly pointed out that this was areinterpretation (compare Ramana Maharshi).
 * ad [2], Carl Olson, diff, subsection "Transformation into neo-Vedantin," edit-summary Removed paragraph that starts with "Carl Olson" - it's a re-statement of the Kali's Child argument - belongs in KC section.. I understand your argument, yet this paragraph is about the presentation of Ramakrishna by his followers, and the purging of some of his more erratic behaviour. Anything wrong with the source?
 * ad [3], Ramakrishna Kathamrita, diff, edit-summary Removed unnecessary quote from first paragraph. It is a re-statement of first part of the sentence. Removed bad reference link - Hixon's quote was credited to Kripal. Removed ongoing disputed views of translations - well covered elsewhere.. You've got a point here. Yet, it also doesn't hurt to have this quote. I don't see how it is promotional for Jeffrey Kopal. Anyway, you could have kept the reference.
 * ad [4], Hixon, same diff as [3]. I've removed the incorrect reference. The ongoing disputed views of translations is not covered elsewhere in this article; what you kept was Philosopher Lex Hixon writes that the Gospel is "spiritually authentic" and a "powerful rendering of the Kathamrita". That's looks like a breach of WP:NPOV.
 * ad [5], God-realization, diff, edit-summary Deleted Kali's Child argument - not part of this section. Added reference to the Vedas as basis of Ramakrishna's approach to the world's religions.. It seems to me that this is about a specific aspect of Ramakrishna's teaching, kamini-kanchana, not about Kripal's Kali's Child. It may be somewhat WP:UNDUE, though.
 * ad [6], same diff as [5]. Is it a Vedic teaching that the various religions of the world, through a variety of spiritual practices, lead to God-realization? I don't think so. What you can state, though, is
 * ad [7], Islam and Christianity, diff, edit-summary Deleted quote about how most Muslims would feel about Ramakrishna's experiences; not relevant to this article. Also fixed two reference errors. I don't see how this is "promotional." Please ask an Indian muslim how they feel about this; I can guarantee you they won't like Ramakrishna's interpretations. It does matter in the Indian context; people die there for religion. Kripal rightly contrasts Ramakrishna's inclusive approach, and his claim that all religions lead to the same goal, with the way other religions look at their own tradition.
 * Regarding the cite-errors: see Template:Sfn.
 * Regards, Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  06:53, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Regards, Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  06:53, 21 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Hi Joshua, thank you for your detailed reply. I'll look over your comments and edits and get back to you. Ellis408 (talk) 08:10, 21 July 2019 (UTC)


 * For the record: I've added an additinal comment after your reply above, for the sake of comprehension. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  13:20, 21 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Hi Joshua - I should explain what I mean by the number of Kripal citations being "promotional" for Kripal. I got into this while doing research for an article I'm working on, about how the West first came to know about RK and his followers and went to the Ramakrishna Wiki page. I noticed that Kripal was mentioned throughout the article, in ways that didn't seem to fit with the particular section or was needed for the overall article. There were also sloppy insertions of his name, like the Hixon quote being attributed to Kripal. There are hundreds of biographies written about Ramakrishna, many by notable historians, scholars, and notable authors. Kripal wrote one book on RK, that is both highly controversial and, according to Kali's Child Revisited, discredited for sloppy scholarship, mistaken translations, and misquotes. I counted 10 Kripal citations in the article, not including the footnotes. That's more than any other author, and some very notable authors of RK biographies are not mentioned at all - like Christopher Isherwood, who wrote Ramakrishna and His Disciples, perhaps the most popular English biography after the Gospel of Ramakrishna. I also noticed that many of the Kripal quotes have his name attached to the quote, where other quotes from authors and books only have the quote and a reference number in the article, and the author or book is only mentioned in the footnote. It all seemed quite imbalanced and improper to me - and still does. I was not familiar with the term until you pointed it out, but I guess my main objection falls into the category of WP:UNDUE Ellis408 (talk) 17:48, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi Joshua, on your point ad [6] - "Truth is One, Sages Call it Variously" - is from the Rig Veda, and is the foundation of the view that all religions can lead to God realization. It is Vedic in origin. Ellis408 (talk) 17:48, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Good point. It's probably due to the shortcomings of Wikipedia: a public encyclopedia written by volunteers. Articles can be unbalanced, despite multiple editors working on it. The Vedic quote is interesting, though the original is a little bit different. I didn't know it. Did Ramakrishna himself have it as a motto, or is it from his 'neo-vedantin' followers. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!  06:39, 25 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Hi Joshua. Thank you for introducing me to the WP:UNDUE policy - the description of the policy exactly fits what I was trying to say.


 * Regarding the quote from the Rig Veda, I personally can't validate the translation: "Truth is One, Sages Call it Variously". That's roughly how I've always heard it. Google comes up with a few variations, but is clearly the same idea.
 * https://vedanta.org/what-is-vedanta/harmony-of-religions/ "“Truth is one; sages call it by various names,” the Rig Veda, one of Vedanta’s most ancient texts, declared thousands of years ago."
 * https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/rig-veda-quote-truth-is-one.83895/ "The Rig Veda Samhita 1.164.46 ...says : "ekam sad vipra bahudha vadanti agnim yamam matariswanam ahuh" meaning Truth is One, but the learned refer to it in different names like agni, yama, matariswan."
 * http://yogananda.com.au/upa/Upanishads01.html "One of the most important verses of the Rig Veda (1.164.46) is The Reality (Truth) is ONE: the wise call It by various names. (Ekam sat vipra bahudha vadanti)"
 * I don't know if Ramakrishna quoted that verse of the Rig Veda directly - maybe he did, but his teachings clearly make the same point (these quotes are all from the first 200 pages of the Gospel of Ramakrishna, as listed by https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ramakrishna):
 * God can be realized through all paths. All religions are true. The important thing is to reach the roof. You can reach it by stone stairs or by wooden stairs or by bamboo steps or by a rope. You can also climb up by a bamboo pole. Page 111
 * With sincerity and earnestness one can realize God through all religions. The Vaishnavas will realize God, and so will the Saktas, the Vedantists and the Brahmos. The Mussalmans and the Christians will realize him too. All will certainly realize God if they are earnest and sincere. Page 124
 * I had to practise each religion for a time — Hinduism, Islām, Christianity. Furthermore, I followed the paths of the Śāktas, Vaishnavas, and Vedāntists. I realized that there is only one God toward whom all are travelling; but the paths are different. Page 129
 * One should not think, "My religion alone is the right path and other religions are false." God can be realized by means of all paths. It is enough to have sincere yearning for God. Infinite are the paths and infinite the opinions. Page 158
 * I'd like to change the current text to, "He believed and practiced that the various religions of the world, through a variety of spiritual practices, lead to God-realization. Ramakrishna's teaching reflects, “Truth is one; sages call it by various names”, a concept expressed in the Rig Veda, one of Vedanta’s most ancient texts..." (with a reference to https://vedanta.org/what-is-vedanta/harmony-of-religions/)
 * I don't recall a motto per se - but certainly the 'Truth is One' theme is what he lived by and was fundamental to his teaching. I also think that it was an important and attractive philosophy for his later followers - in India and the West. Aldous Huxley wrote about this concept in his book, The Perennial Philosophy, a collection of teachings of the religions of the world, expressing the same spiritual truths. Ramakrishna held that truth was the most important thing. In his monastic renunciation, he could give up everything but not Truth. Ellis408 (talk) 10:25, 25 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Rig Veda Samhita 1.164.46 says diff:
 * It is specifically about Vedic gods, not about co-existing world-religions. See also Mandala 1. As a motto, it is definitely Neo-Vedanta, just like vedanta.org. Regarding certainly the 'Truth is One' theme is what he lived by and was fundamental to his teaching, this is how people like Vivekananda presented his teachings. I'm sure there exist more sources on this Ramakrishna/Neo-Vedanta universalism. Some Google-search titles that may be useful:
 * Use of RV 1.164.46 to resolve contradictory statements in the Rigveda
 * Paul Hedges (2014), Controversies in Contemporary Religion: Education, Law, Politics, Society, and Spirituality [3 volumes], p.197 ff (compare Nanak, p.198: "God is One")
 * And some standards:
 * ISBN 0231149875, (266 pages), paperback
 * NB: Kali's Child has 257 citations at Google scholar; ''Kali's Child revisited, written by a former "associate minister of the Ramakrishna-Vedanta Society in Boston," has only six. I doubt if it is WP:RS. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  04:49, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!  04:49, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
 * ISBN 0231149875, (266 pages), paperback
 * NB: Kali's Child has 257 citations at Google scholar; ''Kali's Child revisited, written by a former "associate minister of the Ramakrishna-Vedanta Society in Boston," has only six. I doubt if it is WP:RS. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  04:49, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!  04:49, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
 * NB: Kali's Child has 257 citations at Google scholar; ''Kali's Child revisited, written by a former "associate minister of the Ramakrishna-Vedanta Society in Boston," has only six. I doubt if it is WP:RS. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  04:49, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!  04:49, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

"Truth is One"
Copied from User talk:Joshua Jonathan

Hi Joshua, I was reviewing all the edits over the last few days, and one thing stuck. In a two places you refer to "the Vedanta Society" - as in, "According to the Vedanta society, this is expressed in Rig Veda..." and "...rendered by the Vedanta Society as "Truth is one; sages call it by various names" The whole paragraph is:

There is no central "Vedanta Society". In the United States, there are many Vedanta Societies, each incorporated as an independent organization, who invites a Swami of the Ramakrishna Order to be the spiritual head of the Society. A better way to express this is either the Ramakrishna Order or the Ramakrishna Movement.

Also the word "Darshana", as used here, is not a term used by the Vedanta Societies or the Ramakrishna Order, They use "Darshan" to mean soaking in the spiritual atmosphere of a holy person or place. I think Darshana may be a Buddhist term - but is inappropriate here. I would suggest this wording for the paragraph:

I've got to reach out to someone who might know, if the "Truth is one; sages call it by various names." phrase is more historic than RK and the RK Order. For my money, "To what is One, sages give many a title" and "Truth is one; sages call it by various names." are just slight variations of an English translation from the original Sanskrit. Ellis408 (talk) 20:02, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

End of copied part


 * I've added "of Southern California" to "Vedanta Society," and removed "darsana." Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  07:03, 28 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Hi Joshua, I'm sorry, but I've got to push back on this Rig Veda issue. The understanding and reference to the Rig Veda translation as "Truth is One, Sages call it by various names" is far more widespread than just the Vedanta Society of Southern California, or the Vedanta Societies throughout America, or the Ramakrishna movement throughout the world. It's been stated that way by a vast array of other religious groups who point to the Rig Veda as stating that "Truth is One..." I think there may be a bias against this view by some Buddhists or those who don't accept the underlying implications of a Perennial Philosophy or Universalism. Just Google "Truth is One, sages call it by various names" and all the various versions of the translations will come up, from hundreds of different organizations - most outside of Ramakrishna Vedanta. The gods listed after the phrase are just a partial list of the various names common at the time and place. This is from the Wiki page on Mandala 1, and is the view accepted by the Ramakrishna movement:




 * I suggest the following wording for the first paragraph under Teachings:




 * Let me know your thoughts. Ellis408 (talk) 18:28, 29 July 2019 (UTC)


 * "Truth is One, sages call it by various names" may be widespread, nervertheless it's not the same as "To what is One, sages give many a title." Even less does the original text say that all religions lead to the same God-realization; that's a later interpretation. Worse, without any sources, it's WP:OR. See also William A. Graham, Beyond the Written Word: Oral Aspects of Scripture in the History of Religion, p.70, who states that "the one" in verse 1.164.46 refers to Vāc, goddess of speech. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  18:12, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

You said to discuss if there's a disagreement about an edit. You edited my changes to the section that includes a reference to "Truth is One..." interpretation of a passage in in the Rig Veda. I posted a detailed response to you, including suggested wording changes. I left the discussion on the talk page for three days, and after no response from you even though you made edits to the Rk article during that time. I finally posted the changes, and you reverted them with no discussion. I'm disappointed, but will continue to press this issue. This is not just about translation, but interpretation. Please just Google "Truth is One" and see the hundreds of religious organizations who cite this translation and interpretation. To not accept this POV is just pushing a different POV, specifically a belief that all religions do not lead to God realization. The Ramakrishna Order, and the hundreds of other religious organizations who utilize.their interpretation to communicate their philosophy. If needed I can create a list of those organizations, but it shouldn't be necessary. Please discuss. Ellis408 (talk) 01:08, 2 August 2019 (UTC)


 * sorry, I hadn't read your post yet. Nevertheless, if hundreds of organisations interpret a text in s pecific way, then it's still that: interpretation. The whole notion of "God-realization" post-dates this Vedic text. And if ypu don't provide sources, there's no way to discuss your edit in a substantial way. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  05:11, 2 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Hi Joshua, apology accepted. I really wish we had discussed the issue here, before you changed my edit - as I think, in the end, you'll see what I'm saying and why - and I believe you'll agree. I think there are four general issues I have with your notes in regards to "Truth is One...". I write this here, on your talk page, as I see this as a discussion between you and me, but if you feel it's possibly useful for others, feel free to re-post on the RK talk page.


 * Cultural issues of commonly used phrases
 * Translations and meaning
 * Arguing about the validity of another person's belief
 * Translation and meaning of Mandala 1, on Wikipedia


 * The cultural issues at work here is that the phrase, "Truth is One, Sages call it by various names (and the multiple minor variations of it), is so wide spread here in the US (and I believe other English speaking countries), that I'm surprised this has come up at all. I Googled, "truth is one" rig veda google books, and got over 114,000 results - most of them on-target, though with variations of the second part of the phrase, i.e. "Truth is one but wise men know it as many", etc. You said you were unfamiliar with this issue, when we started this discussion. Perhaps you should read Wiki's article on Hinduism's pluralism.Here's a passage from a general description of Hinduism, from a group that is not affiliated with the Ramakrishna Movement (Hindu American Foundation):




 * Here in the US, you see this phrase displayed in hundreds of meditation studios, Yoga studios, UU Churches, etc. You said, "Truth is One, sages call it by various names" may be widespread, nervertheless it's not the same as "To what is One, sages give many a title." Two issues about this - you're arguing against the translation and meaning that millions of Hindus and spiritual seekers of all faiths, translate this verse into English with the meaning that all paths, religions, spiritual practices, lead to the ultimate God, Ground of All Existence, The Source, or in Sanskrit, Brahman. Secondly, WP recognizes the existence and use of Common Knowledge:




 * Regarding the translation and meaning: this sub-section of the Ramakrishna article is not the place to argue either. This paragraph describes what Ramakrishna believed and practiced. In the edit I proposed, it is correct and factual. To argue against the translation and meaning is to argue against what millions of people believe and is central to their faith. I understand that there are some Buddhist, Christians, and others who don't believe the translation and/or meaning as I've described it, but that's arguing for a particular personal belief against another person's personal belief. Putting in the edits I suggest is not arguing for any particular translation or meaning, but describes RK's beliefs and practices, that are based on the "Truth is One...", derived from the Rig Veda. Here is a quote from Swami Prabhavananda's Religion and Practice, which ties the translation and meaning to Ramakrishna directly:




 * Mandala 1 as defined in Wikipedia is as follows:




 * I'm traveling right now, but I have many reference books at home on Hinduism, Interfaith Gatherings (including the two-volume proceedings of the Parliament of the World's Religions of 1893, published at the time), Huxley's Perennial Philosophy, Prabhavananda's Spiritual Heritage of India Spiritual Heritage of India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_Heritage_of_India_(book), which was used as a textbook in University level courses on religion and philosophy, and many others. But, I promise you there are hundreds of contemporary and historic citations of this same translation and this meaning. I hope you will revert to my edits, without me having to provide more research. Please let me know.


 * In conclusion, the section describes what Ramakrishna practiced and believed. It is not about the accuracy of the translation or the interpretation of the Rig Veda's meaning, or even about how popular this phrase and meaning are. It's just a description of what he believed and the basis of his belief. Thanks, Ellis408 (talk) 17:21, 2 August 2019 (UTC)


 * In answer your reply:
 * Your conclusion that it is a commonly used phrase is your personal conclusion. I attended you to William A. Graham, Beyond the Written Word: Oral Aspects of Scripture in the History of Religion, p.70, who states that "the one" in verse 1.164.46 refers to Vāc, goddess of speech. The motto found at hundreds of meditation studios, Yoga studios, UU Churches, etc. is typical for Neo-Vedanta. Religious pluralism is a mix of unsourced statements and WP:OR, not worth of keeping. And see California textbook controversy over Hindu history for the credits of the Hindu American Foundation.
 * The Ramakrishna-article is definitely a place to argue about the translation and meaning of this specific Vedic text. "Truth is One" is an interpretation, which deviates from the original text. Did Ramakrishna himself interpret this text this way - did he even refer to this text? Or did his followers, his biographer? As far as I can see, it's Swami Prabhavananda's interpretation, an outspoken Neo-Vedantin, who's translation of the Vivekacudamani ha 's been qualified as 'bordering on the simplistic (John Grimes, The Vivekacudamani of Sankaracarya Bhagavatpada: An Introduction and Translation, Preface, note 7. Probably not WP:RS.
 * Wikipedia is based on WP:RS, not on personal beliefs.
 * Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!  06:51, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Gospel of Ramakrishna
regarding this edit, which exact edition of the "Gospel of Ramakrishna"are you referring to? Publication-date, isbn? Is this the text? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!  01:36, 6 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Thanks for digging into this. You've made me a better editor, but I have to brush up and learn more. I don't know that website. I mentioned I was travelling - but when I got home I looked up the quote in a Concordance I have of the Gospel. I took it directly from the 1942 Edition: Mahendranath Gupta, The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna, 1942 edition, isbn 978-0-911206-01-2. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ellis408 (talk • contribs) 6 august 2019 (UTC)


 * Here and [www.vedanta-nl.org/GOSPEL.pdf here] are links. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  06:05, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Bhakti, Tantra, and God-realization
I've been adding more details and quotes about SUI 's progression through many methods of seeking God, including worshiping his family deity Rama, Worship of Kali (as a priest), Tantra, Vaishnavism, Advaita, Sufism, and Christianity. After his years of sadhana, his practice was to meditate, offer flowers in the Kali temple, and waive incense at the pictures of deities on the wall of his room. His followers believe he remained in a state of bhavamukha, a level of blissful shamdhi. I am continuing to add references and more quotes. Much of this is covered in the Nikhilananda Gospel.

I moved the quote from Kripal to the Kali's Child section, as in this context, it's difficult to argue that "Ramakrishna rejected Advaita Vedanta in favour of Shakti Tantra", in that RK went from Tantra to Vaishnavism to Advaita and beyond. The whole point of his sadhana was to accept all paths and reject none. RK did argue that the Advaita path was more difficult, even impossible if any ego remains. Ellis408 (talk) 22:43, 9 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I moved the whole "Bhakti, Tantra, and God-realization" section higher in the article, as it can serve as an index or summary of the details that follow, about the individual teachers.