Talk:Ramesses III/Archive 1

Request for comments: Ramses/Rameses/Ramesses
Please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ancient Egypt. –Hajor 18:07, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Automatic peerreview
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Vandalism
For his date of reign someone put shit at the end of it, it is very annoying!Phthinosuchusisanancestor (talk) 19:48, 22 October 2008 (UTC) Phthinosuchusisanancestor

See http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Merlin-UK for some high res photos for this articlee... 87.102.91.145 (talk) 22:29, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Screaming Mummy
For anyone who knows the "Screaming Mummy" (because the mummy is, like, in agony...), can someone post in the article (or Pentawer's article) the possibility that the mummy may be Ramesses III's son Pentawer???

Saw that in here. Thanks... Heran et Sang&#39;gres (talk) 15:37, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Tenure and Chaos
The last paragraph begins, "Ramesses' two main names, shown left," but his names are not shown at all. I'm removing the "shown left" bit, but perhaps someone can add that, with the appropriate illustrations, later? Jedikaiti (talk) 18:02, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Ramesses - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 04:40, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Merger proposal
Whoever proposed merging the Harem conspiracy article into this one forgot to create this section to discuss it, so I'm creating one. However, in light of the recent discovery that Ramesses III's throat was slit, plus DNA testing which strongly suggests a strangled mummy nearby was his son Pentaweret (for whom the conspiracy was carried out), I must disagree with the proposed merger as the other article describes the now-apparent assassination of Ramesses III. --RBBrittain (talk) 02:16, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Disagree with a merger: Ramesses III was assassinated in a conspiracy and this fact should be mentioned in his own wikipedia article since it is now a confirmed fact. Regards, --Leoboudv (talk) 03:47, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Assassination -attempt-
Resources such as Oxford History of Ancient Egypt & Oriental Institute state that Rameses III was in fact not assassinated. There is no evidence on his mummy that he was murdered, and that his son Ramses IV took the throne, not Tiy's son Pentaweret, whom was conspired to take the throne in his place. In the records of court hearings, it states that the criminals were forced to commit suicide. JanderVK (talk) 15:09, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 March 2016
Link the phrase "a conspiracy" in the lede to the article dedicated to this specific conspiracy: harem conspiracy.

73.155.94.20 (talk) 23:53, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done clpo13(talk) 00:02, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

BBC-sourced content
User: 69.12.111.223 about this and this....

Popular media is a not what Wikipedia considers to be a reliable source for scientific information. Please see WP:RS and WP:SCIRS. Jytdog (talk) 18:51, 18 February 2017 (UTC)


 * In any case it's in the article already from a reliable source, so there's no point in adding it. Doug Weller  talk 19:17, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
 * ah, missed that! thx Jytdog (talk) 19:26, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Professors S.O.Y. Keita and Alain Anselin Respond To The Egyptian DNA study in Nature, titled Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods
They object to the categorical dismissal of PCR testing, and point out that "PCR based methods were used successfully on mummified Egyptian cats and crocodiles without creating extensive debate." They point out that to the authors, only Sub-Saharan African is counted as African, while Lower and Upper Nile Valley dna is not. The authors classify mtDNA haplogroup M1 as 'Asian', even though it occurs extensively in East Africa, and came from L3. They don't seem to classify L3 as African either, considering it was already present in the pre-Ptolemaic and Ptolemaic categories in their own study (see Figure 3 a), yet they only notice the increase in L0, L1 and L2 in the modern population. That is, an increase compared to the extremely limited sample size and singular location in northern Egypt. This is no basis for the rejection of the DNA Tribes' findings from Wikipedia. Nature: Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods. Response: Ancient Egyptian Genomes from northern Egypt: Further discussion.

Keita and Anselin mention numerous other problems with the study and the authors' interpretation of their data:

1) Sampling and methodological strategy

"The samples can be questioned as to their representativeness of Egypt in terms of size, spatio-temporal and socio-cultural aspects."

2) The samples cannot be convincingly said to represent true breeding populations or those that truly integrate historical information.

3) On the Definition of African

"Schuenemann et al.1 seem to implicitly suggest that only SSA equals Africa and that there are no interconnections between the various regions of Africa not rooted in the slave trade, a favorite trope."

They continue:

" It is not clear why there is an emphasis on ‘sub-Saharan’ when no Saharan or supra-Saharan population 4 samples--empirical or modelled are considered; furthermore, there is no one way to be“sub-Saharan.” In this study northern tropical Africans, such as lower and upper Nubians and adjacent southern Egyptians and Saharans were not included as comparison groups,as noted by the authors themselves."

That's for the study in Nature. Ironically...

There was a study that states that it is the Arabic component of the Nile Valley population, that arrived late, specifically with the Arab expansion after the fall of the Roman Empire. (PLOS Genetics) Northeast African genomic variation shaped by the continuity of indigenous groups and Eurasian migrations:

"We investigate genomic diversity of northeast African populations and found a clear bimodal distribution of variation, correlated with geography, and likely driven by Eurasian admixture in the wake of migrations along the Nile. This admixture process largely coincides with the time of the Arab conquest, spreading in a southbound direction along the Nile and the Blue Nile. Nilotic populations occupying the region around the White Nile show long-term continuity, genetic isolation and genetic links to ancestral East African people. Compared to current times, groups that are ancestral to the current-day Nilotes likely inhabited a larger area of northeast Africa prior to the migration from the Middle East as their ancestry component can still be found in a large area." In Figure 2, you can see that the modern Egyptians admixture the same as the Palestinians, Druze and Bedouins; that the Nubians, Beja, (Sudanese) Arabs admixture in the same way; that the Dinka, Nuer and Shilluk and other Nilotes admixture in the same way; and that the Horn of Africa Somalis, Afar, Tigrayans, Oromo admixture the same way. Light Green is European, Orange is Sub-Saharan African/Yoruba, Dark Blue is Nilotic, Pink is Horn of Africa.

A third study, (NATURE) The genetics of East African populations: a Nilo-Saharan component in the African genetic landscape, shows this even more clearly in Figure 3. At steps K=2 to K=5, there are 5 main components: Dark Blue (Arabic or Modern Qatari and Modern Egyptian), Light Blue (Sub-Saharan African/Yoruba), Light Green (Nilotic or southern Nile Valley), Dark Green (northern Nile Valley and Ethiopia) and Pink (Saharan). Notice that the dark blue Arabic (Qatar, Modern Egyptian) component decreases with distance farther south. Notice that Qataris, Egyptians and Copts admixture the same way except that the Copts have this Nilotic element showing up in K=3, after which they admixture more like the northern Nile Valley group of Beja, Nubians, Sudanese Arabs and Ethiopians. The Nilotes, Nuba and Darfurians have this big Sub-Saharan Africa/Yoruba element at K=2, and a huge Nilotic element from K=3 and on. 83.84.100.133 (talk) 08:14, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

haplogroup predominantly found in Sub-Saharan Africa, - original research
That is commentary on the actual source, which doesn't discuss it. In other words, it's No original research and not allowed. It's clearly aimed at trying to establish a genetic relationship between Ramesses and a population, which the source doesn't try to to. {{ping|Yellowfiver]] when I was new I tried to edit Where Troy Once Stood, a book that claims the Trojan War took place in Britain.


 * Right, because stating that Ramses III had haplogroup E1b1a and that E1b1a is the haplogroup of the Bantu expansion, is like saying that the Trojan War took place in Britain. You are implying that just as we know that the Trojan War didn't take place in the UK, 'we know' that the Ancient Egyptians could't possibly have anything to do with the people of Sub-Saharan Africa - even though we can now prove that they have the same genes. That is not unlike Mary Lefkowitz describing the description Egyptian colonisation of Greece by the ancient Greek historians as being akin to stories of werewolves. Also, stating that E1b1a is the haplogroup predominant in Sub-Saharan Africa today is not 'original research' or synthesis. It is giving context to haplogroup E1b1a. MrSativa (talk) 12:14, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

I knew quite a lot about the book and why it was wrong and tried to add that, but it was explained to me that I couldn't, I could only use sources that discuss the book. This is so far as I know a unique quality of Wikipedia, and can be hard for those used to writing academic essays, etc to grasp. We do have a noticeboard for this sort of issue, WP:NORN, where you could try to justify this, but it really doesn't belong in the article. Doug Weller talk 20:16, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I am sick and tired of having to convince you about obvious facts. First you misinterpret Wikipedia's NORN rules. I will quote them again: Sources
 * https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research#Sources
 * "Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. Take care, however, not to go beyond what is expressed in the sources or to use them in ways inconsistent with the intent of the source, such as using material out of context. In short, stick to the sources." Therefore, when I quote that Ramses III had haplogroup E1b1a from the BMJ article, and when I state that haplogroup E1b1a today is associated with the Bantu Expansion and quote iGenea or any other source, this is not 'original research'. I am quoting two different, well established sources stating obvious facts. To quote Wikipedia: "this is encouraged". Source based research is not 'original research', according to Wikipedia itself. This obstructionism has gone on for years now, and I'm tired of it. You are keeping basic information out of Wikipedia, because YOU DON'T LIKE IT. MrSativa (talk) 11:44, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Now you are saying I am using a synthesis of different sources? "Synthesis of published material
 * See also: Wikipedia:What SYNTH is not https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_SYNTH_is_not
 * Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. This would be improper editorial synthesis of published material to imply a new conclusion, which is original research performed by an editor here.[9] "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article. If a single source says "A" in one context, and "B" in another, without connecting them, and does not provide an argument of "therefore C", then "therefore C" cannot be used in any article.
 * However, what SYNTH is not states: " In particular, this essay is intended to oppose taking an excessively strict interpretation of the policy in many cases. After all, Wikipedia does not have firm rules. " What SYNTH is NOT:
 * "SYNTH is not NPOV, when it is point-by-point
 * The policy forbids "synthesis of published material that advances a position" (emphasis added). A NPOV article gives appropriate weight to all positions, if there are multiple positions on a subject, by including multiple statements. A single assertion, by contrast, can be NPOV only if it doesn't advance any particular position to begin with. So if a single statement, taken in isolation, is NPOV, then it's not SYNTH." In other words, the statement that E1b1a is the haplogroup today associated with the Bantu Expansion is not SYNTH. Even if it is preceded by the statement that Ramses III had haplogroup E1b1a. MrSativa (talk) 12:06, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
 * This is indeed WP:SYN and WP:UNDUE use of a primary source that is focused on something else. We have had the same issue of someone taking a bit out of a primary source and making big hay with it at DNA history of Egypt. Jytdog (talk) 20:05, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Please don't misrepresent the misrepresentation by iGENEA of a screeshot they took of a Discovery Channel program, and compare it to a study published in the BMJ. iGENEA has been debunked, the Hawass study ended up in the BMJ. Next, you're going to as, "but is the British Medical Journal peer reviewed", etc. etc. 83.84.100.133 (talk) 12:25, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
 * This is indeed WP:SYN and WP:UNDUE use of a primary source that is focused on something else. We have had the same issue of someone taking a bit out of a primary source and making big hay with it at DNA history of Egypt. Jytdog (talk) 20:05, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Please don't misrepresent the misrepresentation by iGENEA of a screeshot they took of a Discovery Channel program, and compare it to a study published in the BMJ. iGENEA has been debunked, the Hawass study ended up in the BMJ. Next, you're going to as, "but is the British Medical Journal peer reviewed", etc. etc. 83.84.100.133 (talk) 12:25, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Gourdine yet again
This Gourdine/Keita "paper" has been argued here before. See eg here, where this POV was being pushed by EditorfromMars. Gourdine/Keita did NOT actually perform DNA tests on mummies, they merely uplifted "data" from another paper, specifically the well-known pop-briefing by Hawass re the so-called "harem conspiracy". This genetic "data" is contested, and is considered unreliable. This is therefore not a reliable source.

Crawford is NOT a reliable author on this topic, being instead an AIDS specialist and a member of a Department of Pharmacology. His "paper" includes images such as "Scene from Sarcophagus of Ashayet, wife of Mentuhotep, Eleventh dynasty", at even though this image clearly illustrates that the Ancient Egyptians looked nothing like the Nubians, and they clearly distinguished themselves physically from the Nubians. Wdford (talk) 17:00, 26 January 2022 (UTC)


 * My 23andMe says I have a male ancestor in common with Ramesses III and 23andMe also says I am: 96.8% Sub-Saharan African. And 3.1% European. Screenshot CaribDigita (talk) 18:02, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * that’s not surprising. See for instance Read it all, but the main point is “ What 23&me do is find some historical people who have had their DNA sequenced and match their haplogroup to their customers. There are only a couple dozen haplogroups around so you are bound to have someone interesting pop up for each one.”.  Doug Weller  talk 19:07, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Mine used to say Desmond TuTu and had me as E-M2. Now it says Haplogroup E-M4254. CaribDigita (talk) 04:06, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Funny. Anyway, we shouldn't be discussing this on an article talk page. Doug Weller  talk 07:47, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Ankh journal of egyptology and african civilizations
Is this actually a reliable source? ? Doug Weller talk 19:26, 22 March 2022 (UTC)


 * And . Doug Weller  talk 19:27, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I can find no evidence of peer review. Doug Weller  talk 19:34, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The statement on the home page does not fill me with confidence. - Donald Albury 21:01, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
 * this is at WP:RSN now. You might want to reply there. Doug Weller  talk 11:47, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Fourteen hours on the road today (attending a funeral). It will be tomorrow afternoon or later before I get a chance to look at it. -Donald Albury 01:56, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

The publication is also featured in another journal, Cahiers Caribéens d'Egyptologie, this is co-founded by one of the contributors, Anselin and is listed as peer-reviewed in the Keita study. http://www.culturediff.org/english/ccde.htm The journal also publishes Gourdine's 2020 article here in issue n24/25 (2020): http://www.culturediff.org/english/ccde24-25.htm

The Keita study states:

"Alain Anselin, Ph.D was  the editor of the  peer reviewed Egyptological  journals Cahiers Caribéens d'Égyptologie  &  electronic  papyrus  i-Medjat"-p160.WikiUser4020 (talk) 07:48, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Proves nothing. Doug Weller  talk 18:49, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Genetics
A few days ago, User:Anarchistdy changed the article on Ramesses III to say that genetic tests showed he had haplogroup E1b1b rather than E1b1a. That statement is cited to an article in the British Medical Journal that I can't access, so I can't tell what the source says. Now there's an anonymous editor who keeps changing the sentence to say E1b1a. I reverted those changes at first, but looking other places online where the study's results are repeated, it looks like the anonymous editor is correct and Anarchistdy's edit was erroneous, so I'm going to leave the article as it is. A. Parrot (talk) 19:51, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

" According to a genetic study in December 2012, Ramesses III belonged to Y-DNA haplogroup E1b1a with an East Africa Origin, a YDNA haplogroup that predominates in most Sub-Saharan Africans.[26] "
 * My question is - what is "E1b1a with an East African Origin"? The article in question does not go that far in describing E1b1a as 'East African' in origin. I quote: "Genetic kinship analyses revealed identical haplotypes in both mummies (table 1?); using the Whit Athey’s haplogroup predictor, we determined the Y chromosomal haplogroup E1b1a. The testing of polymorphic autosomal microsatellite loci provided similar results in at least one allele of each marker (table 2?). Although the mummy of Ramesses III’s wife Tiy was not available for testing, the identical Y chromosomal DNA and autosomal half allele sharing of the two male mummies strongly suggest a father-son relationship." It sounds like someone is trying to bend over backwards to separate Ramses III from the Bantu Expansion, which is usually identified with the dispersal of E1b1a. MrSativa (talk) 02:05, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

We should add that he could also be a chadic e1b1b or e1b1b-v22. http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2012-12/1355934165 --108.162.136.215 (talk) 20:19, 13 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I agree 100%. When you do Scientific research, it requires more than just one perspective. The fact that NevGen predicts E-V22 shows that Whit Athey's Haplogroup Predictor was not accurate. Limited to only 13-STR markers does not help. The suggestion that E1b1b-V22 should be added on here is fair. However, it seems like the ones that are protecting this Wiki page are not allowing for the truth to be told. It definitely feels as if there is an agenda here. The fact that E-V22 is has a higher frequently in Egypt than E-M2 should tell us the probability of Rameses III being E1b1a-M2 is very unlikely. Biblicaldna (talk) 01:10, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
 * "The fact that E-V22 is has a higher frequently in Egypt than E-M2 should tell us the probability of Rameses III being E1b1a-M2 is very unlikely." KV55's and Tutankhamun's alleged R1b is in very low frequency too. However that presumes the Ancient Egyptian population is the same as the Modern Egyptian population. According to Pagani et al, the Modern Egyptians are 80% descendants of the Arab Invasion. "Using ADMIXTURE17 and principal-component analysis (PCA)18 (Figure 1A), we estimated the average proportion of non-African ancestry in the Egyptians to be 80% and dated the midpoint of the admixture event by using ALDER20 to around 750 years ago (Table S2), consistent with the Islamic expansion and dates reported previously.13, 14" (Source: (AJHG, Cell) Tracing the Route of Modern Humans out of Africa by Using 225 Human Genome Sequences from Ethiopians and Egyptians, by Luca Pagani, ... Chris Tyler-Smith). Well Ramses III either is or isn't E1b1a. Also, no one took into account when they found that Tutankhamun had haplogroup R1b, a haplogroup not widespread in Modern Egypt, that it might not only have been R1b1a1a2, high in Scotland and Ireland, but R1b1a2, extremely high among the Hausa/Chadic speakers of Eastern Nigeria - the Hausa moved from the Nile Valley 4,000 years ago, during the Pharaonic Period. Another fact: E1b1a, today most unadmixed in West Africa, was once the dna of the Arabian Peninsula, upto the Neolithic. https://web.archive.org/web/20140412054153/http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2014-04-02.pdf DNA Tribes Digest, April 2, 2014: "In the Arabian Peninsula, EEF farmers mixed with ancestral Sub-Saharan Africans related to modern Nigerian, Gambian, and Botswanan populations." 2001:1C00:1E31:5F00:F954:1BE2:6191:7B7A (talk) 09:52, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Hi. Somebody keeps removing the genetics part from Wikipedia. Why would you not want this information known? Racism possibly or fear that the Egyptians were black? Yeah I definitely think this should go back to having this information. Doug Weller is the person in charge that removed it.


 * I removed it because it is cherry-picking an article that was not aimed at determining his race. It clearly says "Objective: To investigate the true character of the harem conspiracy described in the Judicial Papyrus of Turin and determine whether Ramesses III was indeed killed." We can use it to discuss that, but not anything else. If you disagree we have a forum to discuss souces, see WP:RSN. I don't appreciate being accused of racism here or by email - damn it I marched with Martin Luther King and in various other civil rights demonstrations, and don't tolerate racism on Wikipedia. Doug Weller (talk) 08:37, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Just had a look at the paper. The study was aimed to find evidence of the harem conspiracy and the murdering of Ramesses III. The genetic test was performed in order to determine if the "screaming mummy" (unknown man E) may have been Ramesses' son. The test resulted quite positive, and I'm quite amazed because it would mean that the screaming mummy could very likely be Pentawer indeed. Among the genetic similarities, the two mummies shares the same haplotype, mentioned once in a brief passage (p. 2). So the haplotype seems to be E1b1a, not sure what could result phenotypically speaking. However, it think that Doug Weller is right: it looks like cherry picking, and I think that the paper could be used in way more pertinent ways than this one. Disappointing to see, making a fast Google search, that all the clamor for the study came from three modest rows, completely ignoring his purpose of confirming the harem conspiracy and Ramesses' assassination. And responding to anon, I don't see the point in saying that someone here could "fear that the Egyptians were black": at most, it looks like some early 20th Dynasty pharaoh may have been of subsaharan descent. And you probably already heard about the 25th Dynasty. Khruner (talk) 21:19, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
 * It does not matter what the objective of the study was. And unless there are other haplogroups mentioned, stating the found haplogroup of Ramses III and his son is not 'cherry picking'. Unless cherry picking now means selecting the relevant information, which is what haplogroup they found for Ramses III. Then, all of a sudden, when Ramses III is shown to be a Black African, with a haplogroup that is literally connected to the Bantu Expansion, all of a sudden skin color no longer matters. I guess even the 'one drop rule' doesn't apply to the Ancient Egyptians, unless it is in reverse (i.e. one drop of non-Black blood makes you not Black). Fortunately, we are now well beyond artificial constructs like race, including the 'Hamitic race', and we can look at ancient DNA. Because he was afraid of what might be found, Zahi Hawass also resorted to obstruction, and for years maintained that it was impossible to get DNA from mummies. When iGenea falsely reported (from looking at a Discovery Channel documentary, not the actual study, unlike DNA Tribes), Zahi Hawass called it 'a very good result' when they stated Ramses III was R1b, the haplogroup of most Western Europeans and the research team. So now we're in a position, where the myth of white supremacy and eurocentrism must be defended by claiming that Ramses III having Bantu Expansion haplogroup E1b1a doesn't mean that he was 'Black'. Tutankhamon, who most likely has the same haplogroup (his DNA is most like people in Southern Africa, where E1b1a is the dominant haplogroup), and who left us his Golden Mask which shows exactly what he looked like, and yet the same eurocentrists can look at his mask and still not see a Black African person. This is just obstructionism, it has been going on for years now, and I'm sick of it. Stop obstructing science, stop obstructing the notion of Ancient Egypt as a Black African civilisation, which it so clearly was. Why does the statement that E1b1a is the haplogroup of the Bantu Expansion keep getting removed, when it is an objective statement of fact, sourced from many different sources, and therefore cannot be described as 'original research', because it's not in the same article that states Ramses III has haplogroup E1b1a. This is not the definition of Original Research. Established facts can be in different articles. They do not need to be all in the same article. And, citing the relevant information is not 'cherrypicking'. So stop obstructing and stop wasting my time with this issue. MrSativa (talk) 13:35, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * If you are going to respond to something Khruner wrote last year you should ping them. Yes, original research is in fact taking stuff from one source and stuff from another. You are trying to make an argument, a link, that is not in the original source. Doug Weller  talk 14:05, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I have little to nothing to add to what the very patient has said in several occasions. I would like, if possible, to gloss over things like an anti-African conspiracy in what would be involved even Hawass, and claims like Tutankhamun's mask "which shows exactly what he looked like" which remind me those concerning the alleged negroid traits of the Great Sphinx. Your confidence in stating that the haplotype e1b1a is inevitably connected with the Bantu expansion, is another matter. It would be great to be able to prove that Ramesses' father Sethnakht and mother Tiy-Merenese, both lived around 1200 BCE, were related to an event datable to around two centuries later, without considering the decades spent by an entire population for the journey from Nigeria. For the same reason, it's even harder to imagine how Tutankhamun could be related with the Bantu expansion, without him jumping into a DeLorean or whatever and going over 300 years back in time. Khruner (talk) 20:12, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, however your bias is showing. Bantu Expansion has not been pinned to 1000 BC exactly, and not 1200 or 1500 BC. Secondly, you pass by how E1b1a ended up in the Nile Valley to begin with, if it spread from West Africa. Or how it got to West Africa to begin with. And this 'anti-African conspiracy' as you call it is very well established. Hawass repeatedly stated that Ancient Egypt 'had nothing to do with Sub-Saharan Africa'. Clearly, he was wrong. MrSativa (talk) 05:13, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

I don't know. I've recently become very passionate at this issue. I'm glad someone has come to their senses though. Still a lot of people believe that they were white or Arabic. Especially the movie industry. Allanana79 (talk) 21:44, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Especially the Zahi Hawass' propaganda is really bad at this. What they like to forget, is that after the fall of Ancient Egypt to Cambyses the Vandal in the 6th century BC, the Greek occupation which turned into a Roman occupation, from the 7th century AD to the 19th century AD (1,200 years), Egypt was part of the Ottoman Empire - they were under Turkish rule. And Hawass himself looks Turkish to me. So does much of the cast they use to portray Ancient Egyptians. What is even more galling, is their 'reconstruction' of ancient artifacts in their own images - which really is just vandalism. I don't care what the ethnicity of modern Egyptians is, as long as they don't destroy thousands of years old artifacts to make them conform to their own image. MrSativa (talk) 13:43, 4 September 2016 (UTC)


 * I don't like using terms like "white" and "black" as though they were objective and absolutes. The Ancient Egyptians don't seem that easily classifiable which shouldn't be a shock considering their geographical location. Doug Weller  talk 21:48, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
 * So why do you try to continue the white image of Egypt at all costs? Even the implication that the Ancient Egyptians might have not been white is enough to ban information from Wikipedia, like actual DNA results, or BMJ published studies. But then, there is debating with censors, now is there? Because after all, what get published onto Wikipedia is all about what Doug Weller 'feels' or 'thinks'. That's censorship. 83.84.100.133 (talk) 12:28, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

You're absolutely right about that Doug. It's obvious from all their paintings and art that skin color didn't matter. But in the world today unfortunately a lot of people see it that way. This is the current of our times. Everyone considers Obama to be black. Despite being half white and raised in a white family. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Allanana79 (talk • contribs) 22:12, 25 December 2015 (UTC)


 * It's been replaced again by another editor who seems to be edit warring over this in 2 articles. I still don't think it should be in a section on its own, but I've hopefully improved the Harem conspiracy section by adding it there with some wording to give it the sadly missing context. DNA history of Egypt is a different story, using it there without context is wrong. I'll put a link on the talk page to this discussion. The editor there has reverted 3 times and been warned, I've reverted twice and have stopped. Doug Weller  talk 12:04, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Doug Weller, if you have updated it to the article, then why is it still missing "Whit Athey's Haplogroup Predictor" which is stated on Page 2? This isn't that difficult. I have already proven that NevGen disagrees with Whit Athey's Haplogroup Predictor with the limited 13 Y-STR markers. Biblicaldna (talk) 10:14, 22 April 2022 (UTC)


 * this is a very old thread. Most editors won't notice new posts. All we need is a reliably published source, ie a peer reviewed article, saying that. Otherwise, right or wrong, it can't be in the article. See WP:VERIFY. Doug Weller  talk 11:32, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Ramses III, Tutankhamon, Amenhotep III, Tiye and Pentawere's haplogroups and STRS are Black African
According to the BMJ, Ramses III's haplogroup is E1b1a. According to DNA Tribes, their STRs match most closely with people today living in Southern Africa, the African Great Lakes (Malawi, Tanzania) and Tropical West Africa (Benin). All in a neat collage: Ramses III. Tutankhamon, Tiye, Amenhotep III and more. Notice that ALL the Amarna dynasty mummies STRs cluster most closely to Southern Africa, African Great Lakes and Tropical West Africa. Not one clusters most closely with Mediterranean or Arabian. 83.84.100.133 (talk) 22:41, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Here's my reply to this editor elsewhere, it's applicable here:":All we need is academic studies discussing the genetic history of Egypt. I don't know if you are a new person or one of the many sock and meatpuppets suggesting this, but in any case neither you nor any of them have come up with any making the argument you want to make. Note that I don't care if his father was an Inuit or a Zulu, I'm just interested in the academic integrity of this article." Doug Weller  talk 15:26, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Someone who clearly doesn’t understand genetic haplogroups, autosomal dna or historic population migrations continues to incorrectly answer these Wiki talk “answers” trying to push a completely inaccurate modern Afrocentric narrative on a completely unrelated historical population.

No, Ramses III, Tutankhamen, Amenhotep III and more can not be considered “black African” based on a Y haplogroup that ultimately doesn’t reflect skin color. E1b1a has many subclades, and is found all over North Africa and even the Levant and doesn’t designate skin color, just an ancient Y lineage mutation. There can be E1b1a people in North Africa, who look very “white” and E1b1a people in sub-Saharan Africa that look very “black”. I thought E1b1a today was also found in a lot of Eurasian and North African groups including lighter skinned “Jews” and groups like the Berbers who clearly have a Eurasian admixture in their heritage.

Anyhow, I’m with Doug Weller on this, we don’t need Eurocentric or Afrocentric narratives, just narratives discussing the actual population. From a genetic standpoint, there is no way you would associate Ramses III or Tut’s phenotype with modern “black” sub-Saharan Africans. They had clear Eurasian features regardless of a paternal haplogroup. As far as their actual skin color, you certainly can’t tell what it was from an ancient haplogroup, Y or MtDNA. Just because a haplogroup clusters around a modern population, which the original post lies about anyway, doesn’t mean that ancient person at all resembles that modern population. Haplogroups don’t care about skin color. They are one variety of ancient market and have little overall impact on a persons phenotype compared to autosomal dna. JarbeeChesschi (talk) 10:14, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Ramses III DNA Section Has Been Removed
Someone has removed the entire section on Ramses III's dna. 83.84.100.133 (talk) 21:31, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Exactly. PUT IT BACK. NOW Allanana79 (talk) 22:47, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Agreed. And you know who is doing this again - Doug Weller. 83.84.100.133 (talk) 08:27, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * And I'll show you exactly why this section and others that show the genes of the Ramses III and his relatives. From a video called "Brits Take A DNA Test". Guess who is distantly related to Ramses III? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVAPMfP4pog&t=575 83.84.100.133 (talk) 08:35, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * When Alexander von Wurthenau can see that Tutankhamon is Black, long before his DNA test came back from DNA Tribes, or his relative Ramses III and his son's haplogroup E1b1a was published in the British Medical Journal. What a difference an honest mind makes. "The features of this Egyptian King [Tutankhamun], whose mother was of pure Black stock, are almost as Negroid as the ones of his captured Nubian enemies." - Alexander von Wurthenau. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyWT_l3dNZ4 83.84.100.133 (talk) 04:31, 19 May 2019 (UTC)


 * And what reliable sources take von Wurthenau seriously?  Doug Weller  talk 11:04, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The genetic testing services whose results you have been meticulously removing or obscuring on Wikipedia. That's who. 83.84.100.133 (talk) 10:14, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
 * When they start claiming that Tiye was of full Nubian descent, despite her mummy and that of her parents clearly NOT being Nubian, they have no place on an academic website. 2001:558:6030:EA:5C00:698A:4C96:586B (talk) 20:39, 17 August 2022 (UTC)