Talk:Rana Jashraj

Killed Genghis Khan / Genghis Khan 'Fell'
I think it should be noted that the idea that Rana Jashraj killed Genghis Khan is most certainly not the historical consensus (see here for example: ). I think the statement should be qualified by stating that this is either a folklore tradition, a religious belief, or a belief among "so and so group" as appropriate (I don't know if this is a story told about this guy or this is a steadfast belief held about this guy and I'd like to hear some feedback). Or if people dislike that qualification, there should be some statement that "{'Many historians', 'Most historians', or something like that, I want to make it clear that this is the vast consensus, but I'd rather not use too many weasal words}, such as {some cited names}, maintain that Genghis Khan died returning to Mongolia from a campaign against the Tanggut Empire, and could not have been killed by Rana Jashraj." Since this article is coming right off of a AfD I don't want to make a sudden edit without attempting to get some feedback. Jztinfinity (talk) 08:51, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Note this link says that it is folklore. This is sort of a moderate quality source by my judgement (I make no claim that my opinion is the consensus of Wikipedia by the way), so I think it may be best to add "According to folklore". Thoughts, feedback? Jztinfinity (talk) 08:55, 27 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Removed all disputed contents about Gengis Khan and others not backed by RS as per Afd discussion.Jethwarp (talk) 15:37, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Structured Mediation
I've been around for an hour or so today and decided to set this dispute-resolution template up.  DCI  talk 19:35, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Jethwarp's opinion
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Rana Jashraj killing Gengis Khan as claimed earlier :-

Now let me point out things as under :-

1. Dreams Half-expressed by Nanji Kalidas Mehta - says -It says ''In a deadly battle, Gengis Khan, the ruthless conqueror of the world, was killed by Dada, so recorded the able historian, Shiva Prasad Sharma of Gazni.

2. Now, as already debated in Afd that since Nanji Kalidas Mehta is not a WP:THIRDPARTY source ( as he was a leader of Lohana clan and Dreams Half-way is autobiography ). So let us see if we can find any mention of Shiva Prasad Sharma of Gazni if he was a notable historian - google search result is

3. Gengis Khan killed by Dada Jasraj as source cited by Bhavinkundaliya is a Lohana community website ( as such not a RS and TP source ). However, let us see what it says. Jalaal-e-Jungnaamaa, an Islamic book from ancient Persia (today's Iran) also has a mention that Changez khan invaded Multan and died at the hands of DADA JASRAJ..

4. Now going by it Jalaal-e-Jungnaamaa should be a known book. But google book search result for Jalaal-e-Jungnaamaa is zero.

5. Tomb of Genghis Khan - is yet to discovered. And Lohanas claim that there tomb of gengis khan lies in a fort near Multan - on which it is written Chinese - here lies Khan Gengis Khan on whom Rana Jasraj of Lohar Gadha dealt a fatal blow'' ( again it is from Dreams Half-expressed ). Another Lohana website says it says Gengis Khan's tomb is there in Multan fort, it's written on it in Chinese, 'Baba Genghis Khan death by the hands of Raja Jasraj happened here''. But again both are not Reliable & Third party sources. If such a tomb existed in Multan - why British who ruled for 250 years and did most of archeological and historical research of India do not mention it. ??? Neither do Pakistan government has any mention ??

6. Nanji Kalidas Mehta wrote his autobiography ''Dreams Half-expressed in 1966. So obviously, if such a tomb existed in 1966 in Multan - it would have been a World Heritage Monument by now.!!!!

7. Those who are new to debate should see AfD discussion of this page here

8. While I thank User:DCI for starting this mediation. I would now wait for User:Bhavinkundaliya 's comment before I add my further views on this debate

Further comments:-


 * The folk-lore has two points, which needs to be addressed :-

1. Gengis khan as per folk-tale prevalent in Lohana community was killed by Rana Jashraj

2. Grave of Gengis Khan with inscription..... lies in Multan

3. Now 2nd thing which points that above story is true ( as there is a tomb of gengis khan in multan ) is a bit which is not digestible as in fact there are no reliable sources or proof of such tomb. So how one wants to incorporate story in a neutral way - any suggestions.Jethwarp (talk) 03:50, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Response
I'm repeating my comment from above to participate in this structured mediation: I think it should be noted that the idea that Rana Jashraj killed Genghis Khan is most certainly not the historical consensus (see here for example: ). I think the statement should be qualified by stating that this is either a folklore tradition, a religious belief, or a belief among "so and so group" as appropriate (I don't know if this is a story told about this guy or this is a steadfast belief held about this guy and I'd like to hear some feedback). Or if people dislike that qualification, there should be some statement that "{'Many historians', 'Most historians', or something like that, I want to make it clear that this is the vast consensus, but I'd rather not use too many weasal words}, such as {some cited names}, maintain that Genghis Khan died returning to Mongolia from a campaign against the Tanggut Empire, and could not have been killed by Rana Jashraj." Since this article is coming right off of a AfD I don't want to make a sudden edit without attempting to get some feedback.

Again I found another site here which says that it is folklore. This is sort of a moderate quality source by my judgement (I make no claim that my opinion is the consensus of Wikipedia by the way), so I think it may be best to add "According to folklore".

This folklore status would also explain why it does not reach UNESCO fame. That being said, this might be a story of significant notability within a certain area, even if that area is non-English speaking. I think it should be noted by Wikipedia in the same way notable mathematic concepts are, even if they don't have significant coverage within mainstream media.

In regards to the book, Google books (as I understand it) only has excerpts and and text for books where it has proof of public domain or a deal with that country's publishers for books of questionable copyright status. It may have more extensive records of existence on books outside those categories, but I am uncertain how extensive it is for non-English books/books with limited note by English media. Since many countries do not have a public domain concept and might not have a deal with Google. I think when we're dealing with books originating from outside US and UK (and maybe more generally outside of Europe) at least, we shouldn't necessarily count on Google Books having coverage on everything.

I think the scattering of sites recording this, is enough for a qualified statement. Again I'm not supporting "Rana Jashraj killed Genghis Khan" but something like, "According to local folklore, Rana Jashraj killed Genghis Khan."

Jztinfinity (talk) 07:06, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I realize this isn't really my fight, but I thought I'd throw my two cents in anyways. No offense to anyone. Jztinfinity (talk) 07:09, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Bhavinkundaliya's opinion
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Jalal-e-Jungnama, a persian book is not available on google books, it doesn't mean it has not existence. may be it not reach to Google Books

Info. related to Hero must remain in article in any way

Jethwa remove info. about genghis and jalaluddin

since many centuries, many castes, and million of people belief you can't remove easily.Bhavinkundaliya (talk) 11:05, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

in recent article, which edit by jethwa info. why Jashraj worship by people? and what about his did? is missing. what is falk-tell comes since many centuries? for any reader it must be addresed.Bhavinkundaliya (talk) 16:38, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

More Information

Vachcharaj, elder brodher of Jashraj is worship as a Vachchdada or Vachchdadada in Vaziristan and Afghanistan. people do manta (Mannat) when rabid dog bite.

Pir Mungho and Pir Chungo also known as reincarnetion of Lalu and Jashraj. Lalu was name of Jashraj's favorite horse.Bhavinkundaliya (talk) 17:48, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Response
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DCI's statement
I think that the article should contain the verifiable historical information as well as the info that might be considered myth or the stuff of folktales, as long as all are sourced and the unverifiable info is noted as such. However, the controversial Ghengis Khan point needs to be addressed. Perhaps the editors involved can describe who believes this, why it is believed, and can provide sources that link to supporting arguments of both positions on the matter. I'm sorry this statement can't be longer and may seem hurriedly done, but I don't have a great deal of time today.  DCI  talk 19:35, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Response
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Editor's statement
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Conclusion
''When this dispute has been resolved, editors may place a conclusion here, replacing this statement in italics. Before reaching a conclusion, please ensure that all editors have had their say, and that responses have been allowed.''

needs additional citation
The article needs additional verifiable citation. The only citation given are of their own - Lohana community websites, which I have removed.

Further, probably Lohanas do not know that Tomb of Genghis Khan is yet to be discovered and here one says, Chengiz Khan was killed by their hero Dada Jashraj. Interesting.... But no verifiable claim or even such a hint that Chengiz Khan was killed by ruler of Multan if not the name or a Mirana.....Jethwarp (talk) 11:33, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Deletion?
Sheesh, with that many tags on it and no one working to fix it, you'd think this page should be deleted. DaffyBridge (talk) 11:31, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

In view of no one taking lead to re-write the article to suit Wikipedia standard and deal with maintenance tages. I have written article with Neutral Point of View and removed accordingly maintenance tags. If any one now wants to add the further information, please see that it is backed with proper neutral third party citations and not Lohana spam web-sites. Thank you !! Jethwarp (talk) 07:01, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

about lohrana history
i just want to know about my cast history Kashyap thacker (talk) 17:48, 13 March 2017 (UTC)