Talk:Rand al'Thor

Untitled
In the Reincarnation section, there are some statements made/taken as 'proof' where they are actually only a particular character's POV. Ishamael believes that he/the DO and the Dragon have fought over countless cycles, but AFAIK nothing by Jordan has proven this, yet. The statement that LTT & Rand are "more connected than any previous incarnations" is also unproven conjecture, especially with the Third Man hypothesis currently rolling about Rand's skull...Nae'blis 16:51:20, 2005-08-18 (UTC)

Rand and Anakin
I removed the similarity between rand and anakin because there is almost none. The article stated the following:


 * Both Anakin and Rand are Messiah-like.
 * Both lose their left hands.
 * Both sired fraternal twins

Anakin being seen as Messiah-like is a matter of oppinion, Anakin has lost all his limbs, contrary to just his left hand, and Rand's twins have not been born yet. 62.194.170.62 21:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Some vague points in the article
Article describes Rand as the one who captured Asmodean and forced him to teach in the Aiel Waste. In fact, it was Lanfear who shielded (implying the captured part) Asmodean and forced him to teach Rand to channel.

Mazrim Taim is also described as being the M'hael. In actuality, Rand has not specifically accepted this title for Taim although the article seems to imply otherwise

The article need more details and general cleaning. There are to many factual faults.
 * Galads his half brother he doesn't know about and M'hael means leader so Taim sort of like Hitler or Mussilinni, (Duce, Fuherer)
 * You realize I hope that Jesus is in the fictional hero's section? Jamhaw 19:03, 12 October 2006 (UTC)jamhaw

Alanna Mosvani?
Considering the long duration of time Rand was bonded (forcefully) to Alanna Mosvani, and the extreme negative reaction he, as well as his three girls showed towards the bond, shouldn't this be mentioned in the article?

Sera404 12:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Under what section can I add this information? his other bond is mentioned under the lovers section, so I can't add it there.   but Alanna also doesn't fit in the advisors section. Vaskafdt (talk) 13:29, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Rand's character
Just about Rand's character in Changes in Appearance he sometimes shows that he has to be hard, knowing that that is the only way he will be successful for example, when he orders the death of an Aiel man for protecting Rand's reputation, Rand does not do it out of hatred or anger, but out of the conscious necessity of being a hard man 9.03 12/14/06 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.106.236.19 (talk) 05:06, 15 December 2006 (UTC).

Rand's father Janduin
Janduin dies when he sees a man who looked familiar (to someone but i don't remember who)in battle, and so refused to fight that man. Janduin is consequently killed by the man --Ahlee123 9:10 12/14/06

That man was Luc who is Janduin's wife's (Shaiel, aka Tigraine Mantear) brother. Raul17 23:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Shaiel was never married to Janduin, she was a Spear Maiden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.138.107.179 (talk) 13:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Blademaster Rank
The article says he is not officially recognised as a blademaster. He killed a Seanchan blademaster (High Lord Turak). I don't see how then he wouldn't be recognised as one, same as Galad after killing Eamon Valda. Zarboki 00:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Because to be a Blademaster you either have to have five of them announce you are or beat one of them in one on one combat. However, noone was around to actually see Rand beat Turak. As for Galad, there were many Children there to see his victory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.146.172.197 (talk) 23:43, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it should be required for Rand to be announced that he is a Blademaster. He beat Baalzamon three out of three times, ok one was a draw, whatever. Craftmatic2 (talk) 22:56, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Comparison to Tyr
Whoever dropped in the allegation that Robert Jordan said the Norse god Tyr was the inspiration for Rand needs to include an inline citation for a reliable source. I'm not saying it isn't true, but all I can find in an Internet search is message board speculation, rather than a direct quote from Robert Jordan. I'm removing the reference in accordance with Wikipedia:Verifiability until someone can reliably verify it.ChipEverwood (talk) 20:02, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikiproject
I have started a proposal to create Wikiproject: Wheel of Time (or at least a Task Force). Please comment here. Nutiketaiel (talk) 14:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Rand Hair Color
Can anyone verify where Rand's hair color is stated. According to The Great Hunt, in both the prologue (page xxiii) and on page 2, his hair is described as 'dark, reddish' 71.76.172.148 (talk) 07:08, 28 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It's red. Nutiketaiel (talk) 12:10, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Rand relatives
There is some known genealogy that is missing from this article. Since Tigraine Mantear is Rand's mother, he is half-brother to Galad Damodred. This also relates him (weakly) to Moiraine through Tigraine's first marriage to Taringail Damodred. Bgbirdsey —Preceding undated comment added 07:46, 5 September 2009 (UTC).
 * It's pretty trivial, to be honest. I don't think it needs to be included.  Nutiketaiel (talk) 12:04, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I disagree with Nutiketaiel, these details add spice and depth to the story. I think it is very interesting that Rand was rescued on Winter Night by his aunt (Moiraine) from Trollocks (where the story begins), and that he has a half-brother Galad who is a blade-master and White Cloak, and that this may lead them into conflict  (I've only read up to Book 6).


 * Also it is interesting that Elayne and Rand share a half-brother and so are related (if not by blood), and that Rand (if he was not a man) has the best claim to the throne of Andor and that a marriage between Rand and Elayne brings the two strongest claimants (/houses) to the lion throne together!


 * I also think it would be interesting to know if/when Moiraine knew that Rand was his Nephew. After all, she was very interested in Rand' linage, and spoke to the Aiel when with Rand in the Aiel Waste, and thus would have been very interested in Rand's Wetland mother.  What did she learn in Rhuidean when she entered the ter'angreal there?  Her own 'clan' history?  She certainly started to act differently to Rand after that! Yes, she did learn her fate with Lanfear, and that might explain her actions in that regard.


 * Moiraine also knew Gitara Moroso who sent Rand's mother (i.e. Moiraine 's sister) into the Aiel Waste. After all Moiraine was in the room when Gitara Moroso made her foretelling about Rand's birth on Dragon Mount.  Did Gitara Moroso ever tell Moiraine about her sister’s fate?  Finally, when Rand was in Andor, many of the Andorain nobles noted that Rand looked just like his mother! Would Moiraine have missed Rand's resemblance to her own sister (unlikely)! Pulling this together Moiraine may well have know she was Rand's aunt (she was pretty smart and an Aes Sedai).  If she did know, it would be interesting to know (guess we will never know) if this ever effected her decisions in any way ~ relative or not, she was wedded to saving the world!!


 * Setting, the speculation aside, I think Rand's kin/blood-line should be noted in the main article, as this detail may have been missed by some readers of the book and can be kept quite short in length!!


 * Anyone else agree or disagree?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.25.253.164 (talk) 13:06, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, of course it's important to the story. I just don't think it's important to a Wikipedia article.  We can't just start throwing in reams of in-universe geneology information; the WoT articles have way too much in universe info as it is!  Nutiketaiel (talk) 13:53, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed, "throwing in reams" is not required, just a few carefully seleceted lines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.25.253.164 (talk) 19:02, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's unsourced and it's trivial, there's no reason to have it in the article at all. Besides which, the info you keep entering isn't even accurate.  Tigraine is Moiraine's half-sister in-law.  Neither Rand nor Titgraine have any blood relation to Moiraine.  It's completely irrelevant.  Nutiketaiel (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Nutiketaiel, thank you for your reply.


 * If the edit made was inaccurate (as asserted), then I would agree that Rand’s relationship to Moiraine is not of great importance to this article.


 * I would appreciate if you would give the source of your half-sister in-law reference. I presume that you have no objection to living up to your own standard of proof.


 * I can only assume that you must be very certain of the in-law reference, to be so dismissive in your edit-comments (although at least this time you gave a reason).


 * However, if Tigraine (Rand’s mother) and Moiraine are true half-sisters then this fact (between two central characters i.e. Rand and Moiraine) should be included in this article for the reason given above. This can be done with a simple edit to include “(half-sister of Moiraine)” when referring to Rand’s mother, a matter of about 25 characters – hardly an overblown edit.


 * In fact, your objection seems to be that this edit is merely background “in-universe” information. This seems to me to be a rather a “selective” objection.  After all, about ¾ of this article could be dismissed under the same banner.  It seems to me that you are setting yourself up as the arbiter of what is trivial and what is not, and then simply applying your “in-universe” objection to edits you don’t approve of.


 * Nutiketaiel, I think the tone of your edits are rather scornful and dismissive. You could make your points more pleasantly, to better effect and with very little effort on your part. I may disagree with you about the weight of certain facts, but your opinion is no more valid than anyone elses.  Indeed, it seems that Bgbirdsey  and I both disagree with you.  I think consensus is not with you, yet you seem to setting yourself up as the editor-in-chief of this article.


 * Finally (and most importantly), if Tigraine and Moiraine are not true blood half-sisters, then I agree that there is no need to include this legal-relationship between Moiraine and Rand in this article.  However, I think true blood-relatives should be included in this article, such as his mother, father and half-brother Galad. How are these facts less relevant than say Rand’s lovers and other selected facts currently included in this article?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.25.255.8 (talk) 21:40, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I think if the onus on references is on the person adding information. If the person who originally ADDED the half-sister comment has references on that, he should be able to reference them, but Nutiketaiel is correct in that it was unsourced data (he shouldn't need to reference an off-hand comment in a talk page imho).  The information on Rand's direct blood relatives (including Galad, Janduin, and Tigraine) are already included in the article as they are relevant to the story.  I also don't think Nutiketaiel has been dismissive at all.  He has backed up his points and has been very clear on why he believes certain edits should not have been made.Caidh (talk) 00:01, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Caidh, Thanks for a pleasant and reasoned reply! I agree Nutiketaiel has been clear, but I disagree that he has backed up his points. He has merely dismissed the edit.  The first time he reverted the edit he did so without any reason (look at the history). I find that rather arrogant.  I think the "in-universe" objection is selective (at best) and not reasoned (an assertion is not a reason) that's just selective objection that can be applied to anything one does not like.  I have no intention of doing this, but I could sit on this article and reject all edits (past and future) by saying that they are “in-universe” information.


 * I agree that the referencer should reference their edit. However, as Nutiketaiel was so assertive in their edit, I thought they might do the kindness of telling me where the "in-law" reference comes from. However, using the approach of Nutiketaiel (and backed up by you), I think I could legitimately deleted any un-referenced passages (I don't intend to of course).  As there is not one reference in the whole article, perhaps it should be deleted!! You can't have your cake and eat it after all! It seems that those that do not use a registered account require a higher burden of proof than registered editors - long live wikipedia!!


 * Caidh, out of interest, if Moirane is Rands' blood-relative would you agree or disagree it should be mentioned in this article? If you agree there might be some merit, perhaps I can thumb back and see if I can find the passage that mentions it (e.g. The Shadow Rising, Chapter 17, Thom Merrilin tells Moiraine that he knows that she is Taringail's half-sister) .  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.25.255.8 (talk) 08:05, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't need to provide a reference since I'm not the one trying to add to the article. However, if you want one, I reference User:Bgbirdsey's post at the top of this thread, which states flat out that Moiraine and Tigraine are related through Taringail by marriage.  Or, if you prefer a reference in the books, how about "The Shadow Rising, Chapter 17, Thom Merrilin tells Moiraine that he knows that she is Taringail's half-sister"?  Note Taringail's half sister, meaning that her relationship to Tigraine was through marriage, making them in-laws.  Note, I don't have the book in front of me, so I'm trusting your reference on that one.  So, you want to talk about consensus?  First off, 2 editors to one is not a consensus.  Secondly, you didn't even try to get consensus.  Let's take a look at some edit histories.   02:46, September 5, 2009, user:Bgbirdsey suggests adding this info on the talk page.  07:04, September 8, 2009, I respond to him giving my opinion that it isn't necessary.  08:06, September 8, 2009, you respond on the talk page, giving your opinion that it is necessary.  Then, without waiting for any further comments in the discussion, at 08:47, September 8, 2009 you add the disputed info to the article.  At 08:53, September 8, 2009 I express my disagreement on the talk page, then at 08:56, September 8, 2009 I revert your edit.  So I didn't use an edit summary when I reverted your bold edit.  I didn't think it was necessary since I responded to you on the talk page before I did it; I didn't expect people to quibble about it.  You're the one who added information to the page while there was still an active debate about it on the talk page.  I am not the Editor-in-Chief of this page; I am not the Editor-in-Chief of anything.  Neither are you- if you want to add a piece of information that is disputed, at least wait until the discussion has reached a consensus.  Oh, and about references.  You're right, there aren't any references in the entire page.  That is a problem.  The way to fix the problem is not to add more unsourced information, especially if it is trivial and (in this case) incorrect, and the fact that there are no references yet doesn't give anyone carte blanche to add additional unreferenced information.  You want to make the article better?  So do I.  How about you and I get together and add some references?  We'll bury the hatchet and work together on it, like splitting up the sections.  What do you say?  Nutiketaiel (talk) 12:10, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Too much time has been spent on this edit for it to be worthwhile. And, yes I hold my hands up and agree that it seems that Taringail and Miorane are half-sisters in law, and so there is no blood-link.  I mentioned previously that I am currently reading book 6 so I have to tread warily around WoT articles so as not to spoil the plot. Until I am up to the current book, I will have to hold off detailed reading of any WoT article lest I ruin the story! I am a quick reader so I might be there soon, and could help out with references then!  In fact, the reason I check this article was that I thought that R&M might be blood-related and wanted some clarification.
 * Finally, maybe it is just your brisk style, but I have to confess that I do find your comments rather abrasive (perhaps I am far too sensitive??). I find terms like "throwing in reams", "carte blanche to add additional unreferenced information" and "trivial" a bit inflammatory, and I think these terms rather exaggerate the 4 word edit that was made.  I think such terms are best avoided.  I only mention this as I think if you moderated your tone slightly, making allowances for new users who have made edits in all good faith, it might save time in the long run.  As for consensus, you’ll have to forgive me for not knowing the rules on this, I was under the impression anyone could edit and not have to wait for some sort of permission.  My aim in making these comments is not to rake over the coals one last time (I hope it is not seen that way), but I hope to be helpful.  More timid souls than me might think that it is not worth editing on wikipedia if they get a wet kipper across the face on one of their first edits!  I don't want to give the impression that I am having the last word and trying to close the door on this discussion, so if you feel you need to reply to my comments on tone, then I understand.  PEACE!!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.15.140.172 (talk) 18:03, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Article needs a "Powers and Abilities" Section
Since Rand is a fictional superhero, he needs a "Powers and Abilities" section detailing what he can do, and not just "channeling". Like talk about the enhanced concentration from the "Void" technique (which works even without the One Power,) as well as talk more about the probability manipulation from being Ta'veren. Give examples of what he can do as a Channeler, but also talk about his other skills as well. A reference or two for at least "what" he can do, and maybe a few involving to "what degree" he can do it.

Someone also needs to do a "Powers and Abilities" section on Mat Cauthon and Perrin Aybara as well. Craftmatic2 (talk) 23:04, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Advisors section
How can a section on Advisors not contain Moraine? Yes she didn't exist in Rand's life as an advisor later on but this is not an article about Rand from the perspective of only certain books. Moraine was an and one of the most important and influencial advisors to him during his growth. She should be included. 174.88.167.241 (talk) 02:56, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

"Future" Section
This section seems moot after the publication of the final volumes. It includes speculation about events that have been resolved in the final volumes. It should be removed.

Spoilers
Can someone add a spoiler to the thing about the dragon reborn. I came here to learn more about the main characters, not to be fucking spoiled in the first sentence about what they truly are.
 * The Great Hunt, in which Rand is revealed as the Dragon Reborn, came out in 1990. That's 26 years ago.  There is no reasonable expectation that if you start looking up info on 26 year old characters on the Internet that you are not going to see tons of spoilers everywhere you look. Indrian (talk) 14:17, 27 October 2016 (UTC)