Talk:Randall Flagg/Archive 1

Man in Black
The link to 'Man in Black' leads to a disimbaguation page that links to this page. I thought it was redundant, so I removed the text link.
 * Thank you, it is redundant. The 'man in black' phrase goes back and forth between being linked and not, but it definitally should not be. Lachatdelarue (talk) 12:51, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

I disagree; the link is entirely appropriate. The value that it contributes is to show that "Man in Black" is a generic term, not confined to Steven King. It also list, concisely, all the various King "Man in Black" characters.

Atlant 15:21, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Um, it is also logical to have a "Man in Black" disambiguation page because "Man in Black" also refers to Johnny Cash. Lord Sephiroth 22:36, 17 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Not really. Jonny Cash is irrevelant to Randall Flagg. --CyberGhostface 04:21, 18 December 2005 (UTC)


 * isn't that precisely why there SHOULD be a disambiguation page for "Man In Black"? Morphine 00:11, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Not linked here, no.--CyberGhostface 00:57, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Umm, Man in Black/The Man in Black links to Johnny Cash as well as List of fictional characters called the Man in Black; where's the problem here? -- nae'blis (talk) 00:15, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It links to a disambiguation page that links back here. Its pointless.--CyberGhostface 00:57, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


 * It's a disambiguation page. It serves no useful purpose to the article. -- LGagnon 00:31, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Calvin Klein
I'm positive that the whole 'CK' button stands for Crimson King. I go to a Dark Tower message board where Michael Whelan (the artist for that picture) and if you want, I'll ask him to verify it. But Flagg doesn't really wear brand name clothes. :)

CyberGhostface


 * Flagg's dress style, as the article mentions, is Americana, and King has a tendency to throw pop culture references around in his work. Now maybe it does stand for "Crimson King", but don't you think it's possible that the author meant for it to look like the Calvin Klein logo? It seemed to me that King made the button to poke fun at Klein's logo. As for the artist, he is not the author; his say is as good as either of ours. And also keep in mind that my line "though appears similar to the logo for Calvin Klein" is factually accurate, and thus should be put back. -- LGagnon 00:12, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)


 * As for the artist, he is not the author; his say is as good as either of ours.

In this case, not true. Flagg has never been described wearing a CK button in the books. The only time Flagg has worn a CK button is in the drawing by Michael Whelan. King doesn't write for any of the drawings; the artist can draw anything he wants as long as it has something to do with the plot.

It takes a while for Whelan to reply (I've talked with him before) but if he does verify that his intention was for CK to stand for 'Crimson King' then I'm going to fix it. --CyberGhostface


 * It's worth noting that at the time I wrote about the button I had never seen that drawing of him, but had read several of the DT books. Trust me, King did write that he wears that button. -- LGagnon 03:44, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

Storm of the Century
Could the evil guy (whose name I've forgotten) from Storm of the Century be Flagg also? He refers to himself as Legion, just like Flagg does early on in the DT series... Any thoughts? Also, should it be mentioned that Flagg is finally killed by Mordred in DT 7, or is that too much of a spoiler? Lachatdelarue [[User talk:Lachatdelarue|(talk)]] 15:10, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Linoge may or may not have been him; the possible connection is too vague to assume to it be one. As for his death, that should be fine; we already have his other "deaths" in the article already anyways. -- [[User talk:LGagnon|LGagnon]] 20:04, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

King has commented on this matter and has said that Andre Linoge is not a form of Randall Flagg in any way. The similarity is merely coincidential. -Karl L. Vivaldi

Version of The Stand used in the movie
I clearly remember the original version of the novel used as the basis for the film. There is no mention of the demonic kid, nor was the uncut version's ending involved. -- LGagnon 03:26, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)
 * The original version of the book was definitally the one the movie was based on. Lachatdelarue (talk) 14:58, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think its based on the uncut version. King wrote it after the uncut version; and the movie tie-in was centered around the uncut version.

King probably removed the Kid for subject matter and the ending because he wanted a happier ending. (If you see the Shining, you know what I mean)


 * That still does not prove your point. Unless you have some proof that shows it was based on the uncut version, we aren't going to go with a simple "I think so". -- LGagnon 20:24, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)

Nah, King says on the DVD of The Stand that this IS based on the original version, and the director corroborates this at the end when he says that this is NOT the ending that the (uncut) book had (with Flagg waking up). -Mr. Tachyon

Real name
How is Walter o'Dim a more accurate name if it isn't his original name? There's no explaination whatsoever why it is more accurate. -- LGagnon 22:02, August 17, 2005 (UTC)


 * In the final books of the series it made a couple of references of Walter being his main name and Flagg being just a name he liked to call himself. --CyberGhostface


 * Could you be a bit more specific about that? And please add some detail to the article itself to clear this up a bit more for those who don't read the talk page (as the problem here stems from a lack of detail in the article). -- LGagnon 02:23, September 13, 2005 (UTC)


 * I'll try. There was no blatant information like "Walter o'Dim was the wizard's true name" but at the same time there was a number of "Walter, who now liked to call himself Flagg" or other quotes that implied that Walter o'Dim was Walter's *real* name and Flagg just a name he called himself. Walter o'Dim does stem from his real name, Walter Padick, whereas I don't know where he got the RF bit though. --CyberGhostface

Walter o' Dim is another alias he uses. Walter Padick was his birth name but he was never credited by it because he changed his name so many times. About the RF thing, I don't know. Several of his names have these initials. -Karl L. Vivaldi

Whelan Profile Pic
Can someone please tell me why the Whelan pic at the top was removed? I thought it was pretty good for the page.

Nadine
I originally removed the part about her because it was completely out of place. It had nothing to do with his plan to take over the world in the context that it was added in. Now that it has been rewritten to actually have context, it works fine. -- LGagnon 22:04, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I disagree. For the most its just a broad synopsis and the Nadine mentions just seemed out of place. I think it'd be better suited for her own topic, or for the Stand article.--CyberGhostface 22:16, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think Nadine is a big enough character to warrant her own article, so if it has to go somewhere else it should be The Stand's article. Still, I think it has been improved enough to let it stay now. Plus, it is Flagg's one other major goal in that novel, so it is probably worth mentioning here. -- LGagnon 00:58, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
 * If we mention Nadine then I think we should seriously expand the Stand article because for the most part its pretty broad in terms of plot and then a specific event is mentioned and it just throws it for a loop. Flagg's relationship with Thomas is a major focus of EotD but its never mentioned there.--CyberGhostface 01:43, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Nadine was the other big goal in The Stand, in having a heir. If you want to expand EoTD to show how Flagg framed Peter for his mother's death and manipulated his brother Thomas, go ahead. --DrBat 12:33, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Then you better expand the entire Stand article and make it an in-depth summary if you're going to add such a specific detail in a broad entry.--CyberGhostface 19:23, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
 * It's not a specific detail; him wanting a heir, and his seduction/manipulation of Nadine was a major part of the book. --DrBat 20:31, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
 * It seems abrupt and out of place. Its a one paragraph section detailing the basic gist of his role.--CyberGhostface 22:29, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Quotes without citations
Could someone please cite the pages and/or chapters that the newly added quotes are from? Generally, as a matter of acedemic accountability, quotes should not be added unless you can cite the source properly. -- LGagnon 05:33, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Dream Catcher
I have not seen any mention of the General in Dream Catcher who was called Flagg it was pretty obvious that it was supposed to be Randall Flagg 216.106.57.40 22:03, 22 December 2005 (UTC)


 * You're wrong. Flagg does not appear in Dreamcatcher. You're probably confusing him with Kurtz.--CyberGhostface 22:27, 22 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I did get the name wrong. Take a look at the novel if you have a copy. Col. Kurtz takes his orders from a General Randall. I would say this is very clearly a Flagg sighting. 216.106.57.40 19:19, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
 * No, its not. There is nothing that implies he is Flagg in any shape, way or form. Just the same first name. There was a character in Eyes of The Dragon called Roland but he was not Roland Deschain.--CyberGhostface 19:51, 23 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I would disagree. Do you really think that a villan in a King story with the name Randall is a coincidence?
 * I believe the name Flagg would be a more tell-tale sign (that, or the RF initials). --DrBat 23:16, 23 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Um, considering he only appeared in passing and did nothing of importance, yes.--CyberGhostface 23:42, 23 December 2005 (UTC)


 * King never uses a name lightly. Roland from the Eyes of The Dragon is mentioned in The Dark Tower as the king for whom Roland Deschain was named after. Randall is no coincidence.
 * King has never confirmed this. It is only fan speculation. And even so, King Roland was a major character of importance from Roland's world...General Flagg was a minor character of no importance.--CyberGhostface 01:34, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Also, Jack Torrance and Jack Sawyer both share the same first name. Should we assume that there is a connection between the two? After all, King never uses a name lightly.--CyberGhostface 21:46, 30 December 2005 (UTC)


 * No, but there is definetly more connection with King Roland from Eyes of the Dragon and Roland of Gilead than there is between Randall Flagg and General Flagg. As the other person said, it IS mentioned in the dark tower series, and if i'm not mistaken, the kingdom over which King Roland holds court is Delain, the original home of Walter Padick as mentioned in DT7. Morphine 00:25, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I would still disagree, I do believe that King meant for General Randall to be Flagg. The man knew what he was doing, he spends a very long time writing and rewriting,he knew the name would draw attention, there are alot of references to past books and characters through out the novel.


 * I would also argue that the Eyes of The Dragon King Roland and the Dark Tower Roland are in fact the same character. King has said many times "There are other worlds than these" What ya think about them apples? Flagg 29 20:16, 4 January 2006 (UTC)


 * There is no way in Hell that the two Rolands are the same.--CyberGhostface 15:27, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I am not trying to say that they are the same character but that they are different versions of the same charcter or alternate realities of the same charcter. I think he used the name to imply that it was a version of Roland from some other plane of existance. Or maybe he just does all this to mess with the constant readers head (Although I think he takes it all way to seriously for it to be that)I could be totally wrong, this is all just opinion, your opinion is that there is no way they are the same, but it is still just an opinion, no more or less valid than mine Flagg 29 16:34, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * There is no other version of Roland Deschain. He darkles and tincts. King himself has stated that Roland has no twinner. 66.44.103.20 03:52, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * This theory does hold some water, i think. After all, a major recurring theme in the dark tower series, as well as in Black House and The Talisman, is parallell dimensions and "twinners".


 * There really is no comparision. Like the two Randalls, the similarity is in names only. I'm willing to buy the fact that Roland Deschain may have been named after the King (but its not concrete fact only fan speculation) but I just can't see Roland being a reincarnation of who is basically somewhat of a drunken fool.--19:22, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * King does sometimes mess around with similarly named but not the same things. Look at all the "tower" references in DT2 & DT3 (man named Tower, a place referred to as the tower in NYC, etc). Intentional or not, two things being named the same thing doesn't mean they are the same thing. -- LGagnon 18:56, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I've asked King's moderator/assistant about this and until its confirmed stop reverting it.--CyberGhostface


 * Please let me know if you get an answer to this. Why can I not revert it though? Why is your opinion more important than mine? It just says that some think it could be Flagg, it does not say that it is. Flagg 29 19:36, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I am sure you will just edit it out again, but I do not see why. The Long Walk refrence is a stretch at best. It was written pre-Flagg but you have allowed it to remain. I would also say that even I, with my seeing Flagg in every corner phychosis never thought that Linoge was implied to be Flagg. Let General Randall remain and let the readers decideFlagg 29 19:59, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


 * From Stephen King's messageboard.


 * http://www.stephenking.com/messageboard.php?jump=id&msg_id=62122


 * The point is that even while I disagree with both of them, both Linoge and the figure at the end of Long Walk are somewhat popular theories and a fair amount of people believe them. I'm the one who added the counterargument that debunked the Linoge theory, btw. Yours is pretty much just a one-sentence character that doesn't do anything remotely of importance. If a character had the initials R.F. and was remotely similar (like the R.F. from HiA) you'd have a point. --CyberGhostface 21:32, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Allright, I will let it go i guess. Considering the moderator doesnt even remember anything about it, I really dont see how her opinion is any more valid than mine though. I still think King knew by using the name Randall it would draw attention to it. I think that Kurtz was another in a long line of Flagg's henchmen. Flagg 29 15:31, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Here's a thought: Wikipedia is not concerned with TRUTH, so much as VERIFIABILITY. It doesn't matter what popular opinion holds, it matters what can be proven. If there is something documented, somewhere, where King said that Linoge, or the figure at the end of Long Walk were aspects of R.F., then by all means feel free to add it to the article, and cite sources; otherwise, let it go. adding such things as "some people believe" are a form of weasel words (regardless of my tenses!). Gene S. Poole 03:02, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Needful Things
I just assume you will edit this out as well and am wondering why ahead of time. Flagg 29 20:24, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I've also asked that question to the moderator. But I'll add it back up until she says otherwise as its a somewhat popular theory.--CyberGhostface 21:34, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
 * http://www.stephenking.com/messageboard.php?jump=id&msg_id=62234 So I've removed Leland Gaunt. And I'm not just singling you out--I've asked about Andre and the Long Walk, and if those are wrong as well I'll remove them.--CyberGhostface 19:19, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Other appearances
I think the 4 references should stay. You seem to think that the moderator on King's website is the last word on this and I would totally disagree. It seems to be just her personal opinion. She even says "I think" not "I know" or "I was told". I am pasting as an example, this from the site;

"its nearly 2am and I’m re-reading The Stand for the umpteenth time and was just wondering what happened to all the people from Canada and Mexico (if, of course, those countries had survivors)and how come none of them made it to either Boulder or Vegas...sorry for being anal, must be time to go to bed! Response from Moderator Perhaps they had their own Mother Abagail/Flagg just as they may have in Europe/Asia/Africa, etc. etc."

Now this is a nice theory but i would not say that it means that every country had thier own Flagg. If anything her theory goes against what King has written that there is only one Flagg. I realize that what she wrote is probally half in jest but thought that you using her as a judge of what is acurate and what is not is up to debate. Flagg 29 21:41, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


 * She's King's personal assistant! If she wouldn't know, who would?! No one knows what happened in other countries, so she's just guessing. But there's a difference between that and knowing that so and so isn't an alias of Flagg.--CyberGhostface 12:20, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll ask Bev Vincent. He's a Stephen King expert and should know which aliases Flagg uses.--CyberGhostface 13:31, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Does this mean i now have "confirmation from King's office" that this name was intentional?


 * Posted by:
 * Randy
 * Date: 1/12/06
 * MsgID: 62754
 * Category: Rumors
 * Message has been edited by Moderator


 * In the novel Dreamcatcher, Kurtz recieves orders from a General Randall to turn back. I just cannot believe that this name is used accidentaly or by coincidence. There are alot of refrences to other characters from other novels in the story. Is it possible that he used the name intentionally to drive Flagg obssesed fans like myself nuts wondering if it was him?


 * Response from Moderator That’s it--you found him out. :-) Flagg 29 18:12, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmmm...you want to not count the mod when she goes against your idea, but when she agrees with you (and she was humoring you in case you didn't know) that means she's right? She's told me twice that General Randall was not the same. And for the record, what do you mean by There are alot of refrences to other characters from other novels in the story? All I counted was Pennywise Lives....


 * I asked Bev Vincent, who is a Dark Tower scholar (he wrote an entire book on the subject and was allowed to read 5-7 before anyone else did), he responded...


 * "None of them match what we generally know about Flagg's various incarnations. The first two [Andre and Leland] are evil entities--Flagg doesn't have the corner on that market-- the third is open to interpretation [Dark Man from the Long Walk] and the final [General Randall] is just a man."


 * Wikipedia is for fact...not just "Well, I think its so." I don't know how many people I have to ask before it registers to you that its just a bunch of coincidences and leave it at that.--CyberGhostface 20:40, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * CyberGhostface, you are going against Wikipedia's No original research policy. Get written, published info to support your side of the argument or you have no argument (at least as far as Wikipedia is concerned). I am reverting the article to include these other coincidentally similar characters. -- LGagnon 21:07, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Then what makes the notion that Flagg is General Randall an 'Original Research'? There's nothing to back it up. I haven't removed Leland Gaunt but I'm going to keep on removing General Randall because its just one person's theory and there's no evidence at all. As you said earlier, we need concrete fact not just "I think so", or then anyone can post half-assed ideas at whim.--CyberGhostface 22:33, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, if Flagg29 gives us a citation for the book (including the page number that General Randall appears on), he will have enough evidence to mention his argument in the article. As he is mentioned in a published medium, it gives us enough evidence to mention the mere fact of his existence. We can't (and won't) say that he is Flagg, but we can still mention the coincidence. -- LGagnon 00:47, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
 * So if I have some quotes and cite my sources, can I make a theory that Flagg is gay?--CyberGhostface 01:17, 14 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, but the source(s) has to say or imply that in some way, not you alone. -- LGagnon 03:09, 14 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, for starters, The Stand makes reference to Flagg having sexual relations with both males and females so whether or not he is gay/bi he has done stuff before. But my basic gist was can I make any weird theory I want if I have one sentence to back me up?--CyberGhostface 04:48, 14 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Quote the sentence(s) that backs your claim, name the page it's on (chapter would help too, as the page may vary from addition to addition), and whether it is original or expanded edition, and you could have a chance of adding it.
 * Nonetheless, you will only be able to claim that it may be true, unless it is glaringly obviously true or if you can find an outside source that backs your claim. Either way, I suggest running a beta paragraph on this talk page first if you still aren't sure if it will work or not. -- LGagnon 05:03, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I was being sarcastic. I'm not going to post it on the topic. I was just making an example.--CyberGhostface 05:35, 14 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I was being sacrastic when I said "does this mean I have confirmation from Kings office" I know she was just joking. Alot of her answers are in jest I noticed. What she told you is her opinion, in my opinion. There is a reference to "General Randall" I'll get the chapter and page later today if I can, dont have the book with me at work. There are characters from It and Insomnia mentioned in the story, as well as some vague Tower references. Flagg 29 17:25, 17 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Please give a full reference for it as well, as seen in the article's Reference section (as we should also know the exact edition of the novel). -- LGagnon 19:15, 17 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Its chapter 19 sub-chapter 9 page 483 First Edition Scribner New York 2001 Flagg 29 20:23, 17 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll get the Needful Things reference up as soon as I get a chance, have to hunt down the book (thieves dont steal books, friends steal books.) Also I will have to look through my copy of The Stand and find the bisexuality reference, I thin thats worth noting. I had totally forgotten about that. Flagg 29 20:35, 17 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I changed "some" back to "many". There are 22 characters from It and Insomnia mentioned. Some are mentioned or appear in all 3 books (Mike Hanlon for instance) but I still think that would qualify for "many" Flagg 29 21:28, 17 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Good job on that. I've added a paranthetical citation as well, plus the page number. For Needful Things, it would be best if you could give the pages that "Rome wasn't built in a day" and the dim ability appear on (citations are especially important for quotes). -- LGagnon 00:09, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


 * We could still use the page numbers. Also, it is worth noting that new sections/comments should be added at the bottom of the talk page, not the top. -- LGagnon 22:38, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Characters mentioned or named in Dream Catcher
From Insomnia - Steven Bishoff Dubay, John Webber Garton, Michael Hanlon, Ben Hanscom, Adrian Mellon, Aloysius Nell, Christopher Phillip Unwin

From It - William (Bill) Denbrough, Steven Bishoff Dubay, John Webber Garton, Michael Hanlon, Ben Hanscom, Eddie Kaspbrak, Beverly Marsh, Adrian Mellon, Aloysius Nell, Pennywise, Richard Tozier, Phil Tracker, Tony Tracker, Christopher Phillip Unwin, Stanley Uris

Even if you take out the repeats that is 16 characters that are mentioned in Dreamcatcher. Your argument that it is 1 or 2 does not hold up. It says many characters not many novels. Flagg 29 17:01, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * All of those characters referenced in Dreamcatcher are from the Derry books. Therefore, its not innacurate to say King added the references because of such.--CyberGhostface 22:19, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


 * "and were probably used because they lived in Derry" You dont "know" that, you made that up.Flagg 29 22:29, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Erm...can you name *one* character that wasn't present in a Derry book? All of those characters that were preexisting first appeared in It. There are no characters that didn't appear in either It or Insomnia.--CyberGhostface 00:05, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Its the "probaby used" that was the problem, you do not know why they were probably used, you have a opinion why they were used, you could even be right, but there is nothing to back up the opinion.Flagg 29 15:14, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Nothing to back it up? Only characters that appeared in novels from Derry appeared...how much more info do you need?--CyberGhostface 22:47, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


 * also, where did you get the determination that they were all "minor characters"? Flagg 29 22:32, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Except for the Losers and Pennywise, NONE of the characters you listed are major. If you've read the books then you must have known that.


 * "although most of these characters are minor at best" Pennywise (and Pennywise makes a cameo in the Tower too if I am not mistaken, which is not a Derry novel) and The Losers are 7 characaters. 7 major characters. Flagg 29 15:19, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Pennywise doesn't make a cameo in DT. You're probably confusing him with Dandelo.
 * I said MOST of those characters. About 50% of them are minor characters. (Unless you want to tell us how Tony Tracker and Steven Debay are major characters.)And the major characters all appeared only in the mention of one paragraph (the memorial). And do you know why they were mentioned? Because they came from Derry!--CyberGhostface 22:47, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I've also made reference to the fact the characters appeared inIt and Insomnia.--CyberGhostface 01:02, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism
According to Wikipedia, vandalism is 'any addition, deletion, or change to content made in a deliberate attempt to reduce the quality of the encyclopedia'.

Upon noticing that all but one of his other appearences (the RF in Hearts) were speculations, I changed the sentence from "as well as cameo or hinted roles in other stories" to "as well as speculated cameos or hinted roles in other stories"

Silence (a user who hasn't contributed to this article for at least 500 edits) reverted and says it was vandalism.

So I changed it back. If anyone has any problems, tell me.--CyberGhostface 03:31, 6 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Your edit is more correct than the previous version. Silence is just overreacting without reason. -- LGagnon 04:03, 6 March 2006 (UTC)


 * User talk:Silence -Silence 04:30, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the misunderstanding, Silence.--CyberGhostface 20:33, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Common quote
"Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither was Akron, Ohio."[citation needed] (Flagg uses this phrase in The Stand.)

Actually this is untrue. I've read The Stand more than two dozen times, both uncut and cut, and Flagg does not say this. Instead, it is spoken by Glen Bateman, in reference to Flagg: "Rome wasn't built in a day, and he'll know that." (Uncut edition (ISBN 0-451-16953-0), page 635; The bit about Akron isn't anywhere in the rest of the book.)

That being the case I'm going to strike this section from the article. Avalyn 14:41, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

No, I remember the bit about Akron being in there quite clearly. I believe it is in the epilogue of the uncut version, but I don't have the book with me at my current point of residence. Can someone look in the epilogue for me and see if it's there? If it isn't, when I go home in a few weeks I'll look it up, I'm pretty sure I have that page bookmarked (I generally bookmark anything I find important or funny). Ours18 20:52, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * that line is in the epilogue but he doesnt actually say it, its more like he thought it, so i guess it does count as being there? i just looked it up now. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.72.48.105 (talk) 06:48, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

Real name
Ok, since we keep on changing his real name from O'Dim to Padick back and forth, can someone please cite a page from a book that says this? We resolve issues a lot faster when someone cites a source instead of just changing things. -- LGagnon 04:17, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Its in his only chapter in DT7. Throughout most of the chapter he is referred to as Walter o'Dim and Randall Flagg as name he just liked to call himself.--CyberGhostface 11:37, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Do you have a copy of the novel? If so, can you please add the citation & reference info (don't forget the page number(s)) to the article? It'd help in preventing people from changing it again. -- LGagnon 16:56, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I added a line that references both names so that should do for now...my point being that while there are no *specific* lines, there are a number saying "Walter, who liked to call himself Flagg" and "Walter had done that under the name Flagg" and so forth which make it sound it like Walter is the dominant name.


 * Although Padick is his birthname (and I've noted that so both sides should be happy) Walter has no longer gone by that surname any longer.--CyberGhostface 23:52, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Still, I think it's best to note something about that in the article. As it stands, the article doesn't really justify why Walter is a more accurate name for him. -- LGagnon 01:24, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Wolves of the Calla quote
Could you please add the page number(s) for that quote? A proper book reference should include the page(s) used so that it's easier for researchers to confirm. -- LGagnon 03:43, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Fine, I'll go find it.--CyberGhostface 15:18, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Hearts in Atlantis
I moved his role in Hearts in Atlantis before DT and his death because I think it makes more sense that way being that his role in HiA is before DT7...--CyberGhostface 00:19, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Smiley
Am I the only one who noticed the similarity between Flagg's smiley pin and the one in Watchmen? The first picture in the article makes it look a lot like it (can't remember if it was exactly like that in the novel though). Anyone know if this is a coincidence or not? -- LGagnon 01:44, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think either are connected to each other, though they might share similiar ironies (with Flagg and the Comedian, neither who are the nicest of people, wearing them). --CyberGhostface 02:32, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Quotes
Quotes should have citations (not just the book, but the edition & pages numbers), as verifiability is of the upmost concern with direct quotes from books, people,or other sources. -- LGagnon 19:47, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Infobox
There isn't an infobox for literary characters, is there? If so, we might want to add one here. -- LGagnon 00:51, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I've been thinking about making one for SK/DT characters...first appearence, characteristics, death, etc...if anyone else wants to, go ahead.--CyberGhostface 03:09, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Antubis/Anubis?
It is stated in the article that he has used Anubis as one of his many guises. Could that mean that Anubis in Kingdom Hospital was actually Flagg? The S 02:33, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * In a word...no.--CyberGhostface 02:51, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Reverted edits on 6/29
I reverted the edits made by Srose. They bolded Flagg's name every single time in the article and added repeated links all over the article, both which are unneccessary. (For example, every time The Stand and Eyes of the Dragon were mentioned, they were linked.) At first I decided to manually remove them as there were some other changes but it took me ages cleaning out just half the article so I just gave up and reverted the whole thing.--CyberGhostface 18:46, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Sleepwalkers
I wonder if the main characters from King's movie Sleepwalkers are supposed to be connected to Flagg? They can make themselves dim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mike Freed (talk • contribs)
 * No, they're not. Two entirely different characters.--CyberGhostface 14:16, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Citation
I'm going to try and find the citation for Eyes of the Dragon. If someone could do the same for The Stand that'd be nice.--CyberGhostface 18:56, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

The Ubris & Walden Book Report citations are incomplete and poorly formatted. Check MLA style manual to see what I mean. I have no clue what "The Devil's Wine, Cemetary Dance publications" is doing in the citation. There's no full date or volume number for Ubris, and no page numbers. The Walden reference is so underinformative as to be useless. -- LGagnon 21:01, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't have either source personally, but all of them have been referred to by legit sources to carrying them.--CyberGhostface 19:28, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, The Road to the Dark Tower does not give the place of publication. -- LGagnon 21:06, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup
I'm cleaning up The Dark Tower Characters and am thinning the Randall Flagg section considerably, since there is a main article on him. For legacy, or pasting into this article, here is the original text:

Also known as the Ageless Stranger, Walter o'Dim, Marten Broadcloak and Randall Flagg; he appears in many books of Stephen King, most notably in The Eyes of the Dragon and in The Stand, always as a nearly-demonic sorcerer. He is the Crimson King's chief agent, but secretly plots to rule the tower himself. This evil figure knows dark magic and uses it to spread chaos. He has destroyed civilizations, led numerous violent factions, and killed his way to ruling kingdoms, the whole time serving the Crimson King. His true name is Walter Padick, but he has taken many aliases, among them Randall Flagg. Flagg is a central character in another sprawling King novel, "The Stand." In this tale, he is also called "The Dark Man" or "The Walkin' Dude", and knows much about Roland, his history, and his quest for the Dark Tower. Walter is eaten alive by Mordred Deschain, Roland's bastard, half-spider son. Walter also, in the course of the series, reveals himself to be Marten Broadcloak, Chief adviser to Steven Deschain, Roland's father, and lover to Gabrielle Deschain, Roland's mother. This is significant as Marten Broadcloak is also revealed to be either John Farson (the Good Man) himself, or an ally of his. In goading Roland into his early test of manhood, Walter o'Dim (who actually returns to advise Roland's father under this name, with a slightly altered appearance, after Marten's mysterious disappearance) has sowed the seeds of his own undoing. Not, of course, before wiping out all of the gunslingers except for Roland in a massive civil war against Farson.

Walter's tenacity and slipperiness are inhuman; in The Stand: The Complete & Uncut Edition he is exposed to a nuclear explosion but escapes to wreak havoc elsewhere via some sort of magic; in The Eyes of the Dragon he is shot through the eye with Foe-Hammer, yet escapes and lives. Even under Roland's own gun, he managed to disappear in Wizard and Glass. Though it seems he met his final end between the jaws of Mordred Deschain, it is contested between fans of the series whether or not he is really dead, though the accepted canon is that Mordred saw to his end when, in hybrid spider form, he telepathically forced Walter to rip out his own eyes and tongue to drop into Mordred's gaping mouth for food ("appetizers"), after which Mordred devoured the rest of Walter's body.

&mdash; RevRagnarok  Talk Contrib 00:08, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Spoilers
First, where are the spoiler templates for this article? Second, the blaring picture of Randall Flagg being killed by a giant spider needs to be removed. That part of the story has now been spoiled for me. Punctured Bicycle 21:52, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry you got it spoiled but you should expect Wikipedia to have such information. I never look at a wikipedia article of something I am in progress of reading. If I do, its my fault and not wikipedia's if it gets spoiled. But I'll add a spoiler template.--CyberGhostface 21:55, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * People should not read articles about books and movies and their characters if they don't really want to know what happens to them. Dmoon1 21:44, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with Dmoon1. I would say delete the graphic if it was on the main Dark Tower article. I will peruse an article (up to a spoiler warning) if I am deciding if I want to read a book, but looking up individual characters is, IMHO, "asking for it." &mdash; RevRagnarok  Talk Contrib 22:00, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Fictional racists?
Seeing how The Stand said he was a member of the KKK who participated in the lynchings and rapings of African Americans, should he be put in the Fictional racists category? --DrBat 01:45, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * That's hard to determine; his motive seems to be to cause problems for people in general and not a specifically racist motive. -- LGagnon 02:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd say no. He's just evil, and seemed to do things more for the glee of it than any ideological racism. -- nae'blis 04:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Should his stint as a KKK member be mentioned in the article, though, as an example of what he does? --DrBat 15:07, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Its mentioned once or twice.--CyberGhostface 19:40, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Does calling Mother Abigial a nigger bitch qualifiy him for the racists category? --DrBat 16:48, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, obviously Flagg's not above using racial slurs, but I don't think he's actually prejudiced against different colors or races. He's lived in Garlan before which is predominanetly populated with people of dark skin. He probably called Abigail that because he hated her, not her race.--CyberGhostface 20:29, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think flagg is racist I think he's just as likely to work with the black panthers as the KKK, his goal is to insight hate (did I do this right?)

Adding Alliases
I am currently reading The Stand, and in about the middle of the first third of the book, there is mention of a disk jockey stirring up trouble on air by the name of Ray Flowers. Is this Flagg? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.124.91.208 (talk • contribs)
 * Probably.--CyberGhostface 03:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Possibly, though I don't think that Stephen King had made a habit of using those initials specifically for Randal Flagg by the time he wrote The Stand. Furthermore in the mini series/movie (as you know was largely written by King) Ray Flowers is female. I think there's enough evidence either way to leave it completely open to interpretation.ASA-IRULE 05:19, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I wasn't aware that Flowers was a female (although now it seems rather silly of me to assume that she wasn't) but the whole R.F. bit was used a lot in The Stand.--CyberGhostface 04:31, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * On the audio commentary for the DVD, King states the Flowers was only female in the mini series because Kathy Bates was available for the role. The character is male in the book.  I don't think it is a Flagg reference however.  Notwithstanding the fact that Flagg was elsewhere in the same world at that time, Flowers generally seems to be on the 'good' side - trying to get information out, letting people know what is actually going on, etc.  Leafschik1967 19:13, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I wasn't aware of who Ray was when I said that. I just thought that since the person had the R.F. intials and was 'causing trouble'.--CyberGhostface (talk) 01:47, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Ragaddy Man Flagg?
I just finished reading Cell. He seems like him. "his" flocks levetating, cruifictions, and contacting in dreams and in person. What do you guys think? Should this be added in the Cell page, this page, or nither? --ASDFGHJKL 20:17, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * He's not Flagg. He's the voice of the collective, basically someone who the phoners speak through. If the raggedy man were to die, someone else would be chosen in his place.--CyberGhostface 21:29, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Aliases
I'm trying to get the article once again nominated for Feature Article given that all the citations are here. One of the suggestions others have made was to remove to the Aliases section as all of Flagg's important identities are discussed elsewhere in the article and it came across like extra trivia. Upon reviewing the article, I agreed, and removed it.--CyberGhostface 19:42, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Spoilers
Since RF/Walter/Whatever you call him has ties into a ton of King's stories as a major player, is there a better way to warn other than "plot and/or ending details follow"? It's just really broad what with his numerous appearances. Someone reading the article might jump in, not knowing one of his other names. Maybe a list of books in which he is involved before the article goes into anything else? Because he's in so many books for certain ( DT, The Stand, etc ), and even more as a possibility ( Leland Gaunt, to name one ), I was just thinking it might be courteous to make sure we've got all spoilers under lock and key. :) Juno Loire 20:35, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I've modified the spoiler warning.--CyberGhostface 21:03, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Fan Opinion on Flagg's Death
Okay, there's been a minor little edit... "scuffle", I guess, between me and CyberGhostface over my addition of an "unreferenced" tag to the death section, so I thought I should bring it up here. The section made a host of claims about what fans think, but did not support any of them. Since then two references have been added, but they still don't support the majority of the opinions in the section, and they're references to blogs, which Wikipedia doesn't accept as reliable sources. Back in November the article was up for "Featured article" status, and the lack of references for fan opinion was raised then too, so it's obviously a long-standing problem that needs to be dealt with. We can't have a section full of such vaguely-ascribed opinions. --Nalvage 20:19, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * What type of site would suit you then? Because if we're talking about fans' opinions, you wouldn't find those on professional articles for Time. I can find dozens of messageboard postings and amazon reviews of fans irate about Flagg's demise, but again, I don't know if you'd consider that a 'valid source'. But trust me when I say that the death of Flagg was one of THE most controversial elements in the entire book, second only to maybe the ambigious ending.--CyberGhostface 21:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * When I have time tomorrow, I'm going to do some searches of journal articles about the last DT book. There must be a literary review or something somewhere that summarizes fan reactions to the book.  That would be an acceptable source to anyone, I'm sure. --Mus Musculus 04:16, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The first reference in the Fan Reation to Death section doesn't work anymore. The second is one reader's opinion posted on a blog.  Neither seem to support a disputed reaction of the fans.  I'm retagging it until we can get reliable sources. Artemisstrong 04:08, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know why we need sources on something that is obvious. The fans' reactions to Flagg's death HAVE been greatly debated. I can probably pull up a number of lengthy debates on forums concerning Flagg's anticlimatic demise. A professional review is not going to mention such a huge spoiler, nor will it discuss the fan's reactions. Its not like "some joe schmo wrote a negative review about Flagg's death on Amazon"...they're have been pages and pages concerning Flagg's fate.--CyberGhostface 21:36, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * No, I understand Ghostface, I see all the pages too, and I agree it's obvious (the reactions, though persoanlly I loved the entirety of the series, even the flaws). But if we dont tag it, someone will eventually anyway.  It's a fairly bold statement, but it's one you and I understand as fact only through our research.  We need to find somewhere a piece that actually uses reliable statistics or a poll of some sort.  Gotta go at the moment, but I will be back.  Just understand I'm not trying to bust yer balls :).
 * Don't worry, I think I understand the situation. I asked WP:RS if a forum's topic would be suitable for citing fan reaction.(BTW, do you have an account on thedarktower.net?)--CyberGhostface 01:31, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes I do, though I haven't done much over there yet. I do like the ability to not have the frustration of having to "wikify" everything.  As for these pages, I was thinking that maybe part of the problem is that the fan reaction to flagg's death piece may fit better on another page.  Maybe?  Because fan reaction to the Dark Tower series entirely I think could make an interesting piece.  And the good thing about a lot of it (I'm thinking of books 1-4) is that the topic is covered by a very reliable source, King himself.  This is recounted through excerpts from fan letters and meetings at signings, and his take on it all can be found in the "On Being 19" prologues of the revised softbacks of 1-4.

As for reactions to the last three, especially the last book itself, maybe it'd be koshser to just link to several of the larger forums (like darktower.net) and refine the statement to something a bit more specific, like "The reception of flagg's death was met with strong reactions from the series' online community" or something like that. And then to back that up, I'm sure we could track down an article or two from a source as respected as say the new york times or the writer's journal that simply documents the phenomena of the fan's reaction.

Yeah, but I'm thinking what rubs me the wrong way is the statements presence on flagg's page. It seems less to do with the character and more to the relationship of the fan base and the creator's treatment of the character. Splitting hairs, I'm sure, but I love the series so much I can't help but split hairs :).

But it seems that the fan reaction is strong enough it needs to be mentioned somewhere.Artemisstrong 05:04, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Name and focus of article
I've been thinking about ways to improve this article, and something occurred to me while reading information about Randall Flagg in the book Stephen King's The Dark Tower - The Complete Concordance. The entry for Flagg refers readers to the entry for Walter, because that is the true identity of Flagg. Flagg is only one of Walter's aliases. So... shouldn't this article really be titled Walter O'Dim and have sections about all of his aliases? This books is the official reference to The Dark Tower series and worked on by King himself. --Mus Musculus 03:48, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * No, because Flagg is the name that most people are familar with and that has been used the most. Also, Walter being his true name is mentioned in this article.--CyberGhostface 04:13, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * What he said. Damn, beat me to it. Ours18 04:15, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I have a problem with one phrase in the intro
"In The Eyes of the Dragon, he hoped to bring an entire kingdom to ruin by manipulating various characters; in The Stand, where he is also referred to as the "Walkin' Dude," he almost destroys all of America with the superflu."

I have seen this stated by many fans before, but I disagree with it. It isn't stated nor implied in the book anywhere, at least the uncut version. It states that he knows "something is coming" (or maybe it was "something was about to happen"), but he clearly didn't cause it; he merely took advantage of the situation. Ours18 05:06, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I see your point - I have reworded it to just say that the superflu happened. How do you like it now? --Mus Musculus 12:18, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Birth
In the seventh Dark Tower book, it is said that he was born in Delain. However, in the Stand, it says that he can do magic for the first time, which presumably means that he has not traveled between worlds yet and was born somewhere in "our" world. What's up with that? -- Kevin (TALK)(MUSIC) 04:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Its an error. Obviously King wasn't planning Flagg to be Walter Padick when he wrote the Stand. It could also mean that he could do more serious forms of magic instead of lighter stuff than he was used to.--CyberGhostface 13:33, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

GA Failed
This article has failed the GA noms as it has a very in-universe perspective. If you disagree with this review feel free to take it to WP:GA/R. Tarret 14:29, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

PI Marine
I haven't read the book, but judging solely from the quote included from the article ("a Marine [...]" "of the Parris Island variety") doesn't mean a DI: it could simply mean that this incarnation attended boot camp at Parris Island (as opposed to MCRD San Diego). The point of interest is that PI Marines like to think they're a bit tougher (it's an ongoing pissing contest amongst boots: Parris Island has sand fleas, San Diego has "hills" (seriously, they're mountains); after a while, the senior Marines seem to think we're silly for even bothering to compare). In any case, "trainer" should be changed to "drill instructor", and "soldier" to "Marine" (soldier denotes the army and, with due respect to soldiers, is somewhat offensive to Marines (as I'm sure it may be to soldiers)). When referring to a combination of Marines and soldiers, it's "troops". I will not be making these changes, since I haven't read enough King enough to know exactly what it should be replaced with. I will reword the part about "field soldier" and "trainer" shortly, however. --Johnny (Cuervo) 11:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I just went ahead and deleted the text "i.e., a trainer instead of a field soldier". --Johnny (Cuervo) 11:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Initials R.F. and Legion
It may be worth noting that there is some significance in the initials King chose for Randall Flagg: The letter F is the 6th letter in the alphabet, R is in fact the 18th (6+6+6). L. for Legion (which may be seen as R.F.'s "true" name as of the writing of The Stand (before he became the wizard etc. in other series)) completes the trend being the 12th (6+6) letter of the alphabet. I'm fairly certain this was deliberate and conforms with the character's reputation as a trickster. On a slightly related note we have Legion described as "a demon of many personalities" this is untrue, or at least misleading, since Legion (as described in our very own wiki article) is literally many demons in one body (a legion of them in fact ;).ASA-IRULE 05:35, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * If you are sure its a deliberate connection, then you need a source, or else it counts as original research.--CyberGhostface 18:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Randall's Speech
Would it be worth noting Randall/Walter's noticeable use of the American idiom and references to its pop culture in the Dark Tower books? It strikes me as a very early distiction and sets the character apart from Roland's world, especially in appearances in The Gunslinger and Wizard.

Stephen King's Introduction to Hero Illustrated Top 100 Villains
Stephen King stated in his introduction to Hero Illustrated's Top 100 Villains special that he considered the Flagg from Dragon's Eyes to represent the same character as Randall Flagg. http://www.milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=enlarge&issue=40113952746%203 23:10, 5 September 2007 (UTC)Enda80
 * Although that fact by itself isn't anything different from this article, could you post the introduction? I'm curious what he had to say.--CyberGhostface 04:36, 14 October 2007 (UTC)