Talk:Rangers F.C./Archive 28

I think we can drop the meantion of new club now
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19259382 "Rangers, who won the Scottish title a record 54 times, lost their place in the Scottish Premier League when a new company had to be formed to run them after the original could not be saved from administration."-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 17:12, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Especially when so many on here have said the BBC is gospel. Sparhelda 17:25, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * yip hence why i meantioned it, i personal think it should geta meantion that during the uncertainy after june 14th they sometimes got refered to as new club but after teh sfa membership transfer and start fo the season it has now refered to as the newco took over the oldco, but thought i would see the new club camp postition on the bbc soure saying its the same club-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 17:30, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

And yet we see that Green has had a phone call from the SPL telling him he "can't put our old games on the website because we don't own the archive rights". Spiritofstgeorge (talk) 22:38, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * SpiritofStGeorge, I hope you have taken the care to observe that the SPL statement regarding this specific issue of archive footage rights is of interest regarding this dispute:
 * The statement reads "Rangers were indeed informed this morning that, following their exit from the SPL, they do not currently have permission to use SPL-owned media content."
 * Evidently the Scottish Premier League identify Rangers presently, who were "informed this morning", as the same Rangers who played in the SPL during Season 2011-12, as demonstrated by the clear reference to "their exit from the SPL".Gefetane (talk) 23:38, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know what you think that proves, Spiritofstgeorge, other than you continue to grasp at straws on tangential affairs that you personally believe implies that your position is supported. Wikipedia doesn't work like that. Rangers does not own archive rights to recordings of old games. So?  -- Escape Orbit  (Talk) 23:51, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

history section needs seriously trimmed down
the hsitory section has far to much in it, it needs to be trimmed down and summarised mroe from the main article there isa lot ther ethat not really important and is covered by the main aritcle for us to get this to GA or FA status we need to trim it down-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 18:43, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Clearly the history section is in a mess. The 9 in a row era is the club's most successful period domestically, yet only has two sentences, in contrast to other perhaps less noteworthy periods of history. The "examples of sectarianism" section also appears to contain unnecessary detail for this generic article, that in other areas links to sub-articles, but in that case does not. Might I suggest an alternative sub-article in the manner of Arsenal F.C. supporters where details of noteworthy incidents involving supporters could be contained in an appropriate context? Perhaps a new section within the History of Rangers article could include a section on sectarianism to relocate some of this content?Gefetane (talk) 23:47, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Indeed, i'm in full agreement with Gefatane. The sub-section "examples of sectarianism" is compeltely redundant.  There is no need for an encylopedia to go into such detail of acts/chants commited by the clubs fans.  If we relate to the celtic article for example as the closest precedent, the 'secterainism' section only contains a short paragraph of a couple of sentences.  If it were held to the same standard as the Rangers article, we could write a huge paragraph of sectarian behavior of their fans, meaning this section would look more like this: http://ifyouknowtheirhistory.blogspot.co.uk/ (an anti-celtic blog).  Ricky072 (talk) 23:52, 14 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I have some sympathy for this view. I would like to see a discussion here before this well-referenced and longstanding material is removed. What should be removed? What should be kept? Is there potential for a spin-out article? --John (talk) 08:27, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * there already is a article detailing all the history this page should only cover the m,ain parts in briuef not that much detail-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 12:26, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

these are the bits of the histopry sections that requires to be condesned as there overly detailed and are contain in History of Rangers F.C. article

The Struth years
The 1919–20 season heralded the dawn of a new era for Rangers as manager William Wilton and number two Bill Struth initiated a Rangers dominance that was to last until the outbreak of the Second World War in 1939. Though winning this season with 31 wins out of 42 games and scoring 106 goals, it was overshadowed by the subsequent death of manager, William Wilton. Taking over the manager's mantle, Bill Struth guided Rangers to a further 14 titles before the war. This period was also noteworthy for the attendances. On 2 January 1939 a British league record was broken as 118,567 fans turned out to watch Rangers beat Celtic in the traditional new year holiday Old Firm match.

1970s
The 1971 Ibrox disaster overshadowed what happened on the pitch to a large extent in the early 1970s. On 2 January 1971, in the final minutes of the New Year's Day Old Firm game with the score set at 0–0, Jimmy Johnstone scored for Celtic. Within seconds Colin Stein had equalised for Rangers. As the 80,000 strong crowd was trying to disperse at full time, many fell down the stairway at the Copland Road end of the ground. Their momentum led to large scale crushing and 66 people died. It was initially thought the crush was caused by Rangers fans rushing back up the stairwell after the equaliser; however, a later enquiry said that the crush was likely to have happened ten minutes after the final whistle and to have been triggered by someone falling on the stairs. A benefit match to raise funds for the victims' families took place after the disaster. A joint Rangers and Celtic team took on a Scotland XI at Hampden watched by 81,405 fans.

In 1972, Rangers defeated FC Dynamo Moscow to win the Cup Winner's Cup, their first and only European trophy to date. Captain John Greig received the trophy in a small room within the Nou Camp due to a pitch invasion by Rangers fans.

Nine in a row
Every year from the 1988–89 season until the 1996–97 season, Rangers won the league title. This nine-in-a-row achievement meant that they equalled Celtic's record. The first three of these seasons the club was managed by Graeme Souness, the latter six under the stewardship of Walter Smith.

1998–2006
In 1998 Dick Advocaat accepted the invitation from then Rangers chairman David Murray to become the club's new manager. When Advocaat took charge of Rangers he became the first foreign manager to do so and only the tenth manager in the history of the club. Advocaat's European experience was the main reason behind his appointment. The previous season was the last of seven under Walter Smith, and the first time the club had finished without a trophy in twelve years. Long term members of the squad that had won nine league championships in a row left. With the financial backing from Murray, Advocaat invested heavily in the team and lead the club to the domestic treble, with the league championship was won at Celtic Park on 2 May 1999, with the game marred by Celtic fans who invaded the pitch, and struck referee Hugh Dallas with a coin, injuring his forehead.

The following season the club won the league by a record 21 point margin, and also won the Scottish Cup. This season saw Rangers attempt to make forays into the latter stages of the UEFA Champions League. The Dutchman guided Rangers into the Champions League having beating the UEFA Cup winners Parma en route, sadly, Rangers went out of the group stage. The club then lost to Borussia Dortmund in a penalty shoot-out in the UEFA Cup. In his last season at Rangers, Advocaat guided Gers to the last 16 of the UEFA Cup in the 2001–02 season, but with Celtic leading the league championship by 12 points, Advocaat resigned from the manager's position on 12 December 2001. Advocaat, with the permission of Murray, had invested great sums into the side in an attempt to bring European success to the club. However, with little benefit from the major expenditure, Rangers became burdened with debt after spending £36m on players and ran up debts in the region of £52m.

Alex McLeish had become Rangers boss on 13 December 2001 and initially worked in association with Dick Advocaat who became Director of Football before leaving the Ibrox club later that year. Advocaat also managed the Netherlands national team in a part-time capacity McLeish seemed to encourage performances out of a squad that had under-achieved under Advocaat. McLeish was an instant success at Rangers, winning both the Scottish Cup and League Cup in his first season, but the big prize of the league title was essentially lost before his arrival. McLeish became the sixth Rangers manager to deliver a Treble when he swept the boards in season 2002/03 – his first full season in charge. The League was won on goal difference in a dramatic final day shootout, which delivered Rangers' 50th title.

Rangers' worsening financial state saw many of the team's top players leave in the summer of 2003. Celtic won the league comfortably in season 2003–04, and Rangers failed to win any trophies.

The Bosman signings of Jean-Alain Boumsong and Dado Pršo in the close season of 2004–05 gave Rangers renewed hope of regaining the title from Celtic's grasp. McLeish's team won the 2005 league title on a dramatic last day, an outcome that had looked highly unlikely after Rangers fell five points behind leaders Celtic with just four games remaining. Celtic losing to Motherwell at Fir Park, coupled with Rangers' win at Easter Road meant that the helicopter changed direction and delivered the SPL trophy to Rangers at the Leith ground.

After this success, McLeish and his Rangers team headed into the 2005–06 SPL campaign as favourites to retain the championship. After a reasonable start to the season, including a win over Celtic, Rangers suffered a series of poor results between September and November. This period included a club record of 10 games without a win. However the tenth match of this run, a 1–1 draw with Inter Milan in the Champions League, took Rangers into the last 16 of the Champions League. The club were defeated on the away goals rule by Villarreal. but in reaching this stage of the competition had become the first Scottish team to progress that far in the European Cup since 1993, and the first Scottish team to progress through a European group stage.

On 9 February 2006, it was announced by chairman David Murray that McLeish would be standing down as manager at the end of that season.

Paul Le Guen
Paul Le Guen replaced Alex McLeish as manager after season 2005–06.

The season started poorly for Rangers, with a number of losses and draws against teams lower in the league, as well as their being knocked out of the League Cup by Division One side St. Johnstone. Rivals Celtic built a lead at the top of the table, while Rangers fought for second place alongside Hearts and Aberdeen. The first Old Firm match of the season resulted in a 2–0 defeat; the second – at Ibrox – was a 1–1 draw.

In the UEFA Cup Rangers became the first Scottish side to qualify for the last 32 of the competition since the introduction of the group phase after finishing their group unbeaten.

There had been rumours during the season of disharmony at Rangers, between Scottish and foreign units, with players including captain Barry Ferguson disapproving of Le Guen's strict disciplinarian stance. It was announced on 4 January 2007 that Le Guen had left Rangers by mutual consent.

Walter Smith's return
On 10 January 2007, former manager Walter Smith was appointed the new manager of Rangers, with Ally McCoist as assistant manager and Kenny McDowall as first-team coach.

The following season Rangers embarked on a UEFA Cup adventure after dropping into the competition from the Champions League. The club progressed to the final, defeating Panathinaikos, Werder Bremen, Sporting Lisbon and Fiorentina along the way. The final was against Zenit St. Petersburg, who were managed by former Rangers manager Dick Advocaat. They lost the match 2–0, amid serious disturbances caused by some supporters. Video evidence was released by the Greater Manchester Police of Rangers fans attacking officers and officers attacking the fans with batons and dogs, in Manchester city centre following the defeat.

The 2008–09 season saw Rangers make a below-par start to their UEFA Champions League campaign, losing out in the knock-out stage to FBK Kaunas of Lithuania. The financial consequences of the failures to qualify for the Champions League were revealed when the club posted a loss of £3.9m for the six months to December 2008, and in March decided to offer staff the option of voluntary redundancy as a way of cutting costs. Despite a tight title race, on the final day of the league, Rangers managed to claim their 52nd league title. With their title success, Rangers gained automatic entry into the following season's Champions League group stage. Rangers won the Scottish Cup for the 33rd time after defeating Falkirk 1–0 in the final, clinching a double in the process.

At the beginning of the 2009–10 season Rangers had to reduce their squad size by several players due to increasing costs while not having the finances to sign anyone. After a disappointing European campaign where they only picked up two points in the Champions League group stage they made a £13 million profit at the turn of the year. Rangers reached their fifth consecutive domestic cup final where they played St. Mirren in the Scottish League Cup. After having two players sent off in the second half Rangers won the final 1–0 through a goal from Kenny Miller.

On 25 April 2010, Rangers retained their league title with three matches remaining by defeating Hibernian 1–0 with a Kyle Lafferty goal. This was their 53rd Scottish League title. With this success, they again sealed their automatic entry into the 2010–11 Champions League.

During the close season Walter Smith announced the upcoming new season would be his last as manager of Rangers and that the intention was to replace him with Ally McCoist and assistant Kenny McDowall. Smith stated: "I am wholly committed to managing the club next season and when it comes to the end of next season I firmly believe that Ally and Kenny would do a great job and I am glad everybody at the club shares that view."

Smith led Rangers to victory in the League Cup Final over Celtic.

On 6 May 2011 it was confirmed that David Murray had sold his controlling interest in the club (85.3 percent) to Wavetower limited for £1. Wavetower Limited is owned by the company Liberty Capital which in turn is ultimately owned by businessman Craig Whyte, a lifelong supporter of the club.

On 15 May 2011 Rangers secured their third consecutive title by beating Kilmarnock 5–1. The win was Smith's final match in charge of the club.

Ally McCoist
Ally McCoist was announced as the new Rangers manager beginning in June 2011. McCoist's first competitive match in charge was against Hearts, ending in a 1–1 draw. Rangers were drawn against Swedish side Malmö FF in the Champions League third round qualifying match which they lost 2–1 on aggregate. Rangers were then knocked out of Europe in the Europa League qualifying match against Slovenian side Maribor 3–2 on aggregate. In the first Old Firm match of the 2011–12 season and McCoist's first in charge of the club Rangers won 4–2 at Ibrox. Good league form seen Rangers maintain top spot in the SPL and were unbeaten after 11 games. They were knocked out of the League Cup by Falkirk and the Scottish Cup by Dundee Utd at Ibrox.

if someone can write up condendsed version and put it live i will appericate it-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 21:31, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't see the relevance of the individual results such as Hearts & Malmo.... this paragraph could be condensed down to state that McCoist got off to a mixed start with Rangers, his league campaign got off to a good start as Rangers were unbeaten after the first round of SPL matches establishing a lead at the top of the SPL, however Rangers failed to qualify for europe and were knocked out of domestic cup competitions by Falkirk & DU.  Then perhaps a quick sentence to mention McCoists role throughtout the adminsitration & liquidation process, taking a paycut, finishing 2nd behidn Celtic, and finally staying on under Charles Green.  I think we could condense the following information down to around 3 or 4 sentences. Ricky072 (talk) 21:54, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * i agree it could be condensed down to maybe 4 or 5 sentances in totla but i be more go win 8 but my english skills aint good enough Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 07:28, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I would suggest something on these lines

20th Century and early 2000
"During the early 1920's rangers enjoy a fruitful time during which they won x title under willie wilton until his death, and x title under sturuth.

During the 1970 rangers had to deal with the ibrox disater of 1971 but went onto win eurperon cup winenrs cup in 1972 under the leadership of john grieg

During the ninties rangers equal celtic record of 9 titles in a row

'''During 2000 rangers where managed by dick advocaat who brought quite a few trophies to the club, then was succeed by alex mcleish who borught x number trophies back to the club. He was succeed by paul le guen, paul le guen tener was short and not very successful after much anticaption of this manager taking over. After le guen leaving walter smith took over again and enjoy a good time even tohugh there was massive budget constraints due to the clubs debts. After smith left mccoist took over and had a good start to the seaosn but off the fields problems eventally started to catch up on the team and the finish second behind celtic before being expleed form the spl"'''

Changes to the "Examples of Sectarianism" section
Further to previous discussion regarding the inappropriate length and verbosity of this section, changes were made in order to improve this section of the article. The changes were: This is demonstrably not an attempt to remove relevant content that may be offensive to some supporters, only to improve on the basis of relevance and concise language, and remove only where content is not "examples of sectarianism" by Rangers or their followers.Gefetane (talk) 08:52, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Removal of section regarding rival supporters use of language deemed sectarian. Although this may be aimed at Rangers supporters, this behaviour is not of relevance to an "Examples of sectarianism" section that is otherwise wholly inclusive of examples by Rangers supporters.
 * Minor adjustments to the inappropriately oversized paragraphs referring to the Famine Song.
 * Removal of section regarding a coloured football jersey that, whilst being controversial at the time, is not relevant or appropriate content for an "examples of sectarianism" section
 * Minor adjustments to the inappropriate detail within the Donald findlay sectarian singing incident.
 * Minor adjustments to verbose language and unnecessary repetition with osasuna singing incident.
 * The question of whether this material would be better placed within a potential Rangers FC supporters article, in the manner of Arsenal F.C. supporters, is a pertinent one, but should not prevent improvement to this article in the mean time.Gefetane (talk) 09:07, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Good work Gefatane, although spiritofstgeorge undid it, he seems dedicated to edit warring and including anything which pursues Rangers in a negative light, including the compeltely uneccessary volume of information in this section.  I think your edit warranted and you, myself and andrew crwaford should continue to work on trimming down the history section of this article, including the 'examples of secterianism'.  Within this section there are also several broken cites, which unless can be cited with alternative sources, uncited information should be removed. Ricky072 (talk) 10:54, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I object to my reverting the deletion of longstanding, sourced material without consensus, as being characterised as 'edit warring'. If you note, I did not completely undo the trimming with my revert, but merely undid part of the trimming to leave intact important material. Even 'no compromise' Ricky072 will have to learn that editors are allowed to have a different opinion from his. Spiritofstgeorge (talk) 11:21, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * YES THAT S3CTION NEED TRIMMED TO BUT IT WILL NEED A NEW ARTICLE ON THIS TO,ill do that bit later the new article sorru about caps kid hiut the keyboard and i hadnt realised until mid way through typing-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 12:24, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * In light of recent attempted additions to this section on the article, I think it should be made clear what the purpose of this "Examples of Sectarianism" sub-section is. My understanding is that this sub-section should illustrate examples of sectarianism to enable understanding of this phenomenon which is relevant to Rangers FC, the subject of the article.
 * Wikipedia is not a news archive, to be regularly updated every few weeks with "Examples of Sectarianism". Repetition of the same kind of incidents does nothing to add to understanding of the phenomenon and its relevance to Rangers. There have been 100s if not thousands of incidents of breach of the peace due to sectarianism over the years. If everyone of these that was mentioned within a news site had been added to this section, it would clearly be wholly inappropriate. On this basis, I would argue that contemporary occurrences of "sectarian singing", of a similar nature to previous incidents, is not appropriate content to be added to this sub-section within the Rangers FC article.
 * What are others users views on this matter?Gefetane (talk) 19:05, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

it should be trimmed and cover the major things like donaly fiendly etc and then use the new rangers supporte page to give greater deatil on it, i would propose something on these lines

"Rangers suffer from secterism that stems from the hierachy of the club down to root levels, some major examples are.... rRangers have done things to combat it but they will not work with the older generations who have it ingrained into there blood" but with mopre detail than that i would suggest 2 paragraphs about 5 or 6 lines each detailing the proble and what being done to try stop it, same with rivalies trim it down to one paragrpash about 6 liens long Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 19:27, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

i propose that it gets condensed tpo this

"During the late 19th century, many immigrants came to Glasgow from Ireland – this was a time of considerable anti-Catholic and anti-Irish sentiment in Scotland. By the early 20th century, Catholic players were asked to leave the club. Between World War I and the 1980s, Rangers did not knowingly sign any Catholic players. Many have written about the club's refusal to sign Catholic players, or employ Catholics in other roles, and the discrimination against employees who married Catholics.     Particularly from the 1970s, Rangers came under increasing media pressure over their policy. Although general manager Willie Waddell stated that the club would change its stance, several of the club's directors publicly defended its position, which continued until the late 1980s. 

'''In recent times, both Old Firm teams have taken measures to combat sectarianism. Working alongside the Scottish Parliament, church groups, pressure groups such as Nil by Mouth, schools and community organisations, the Old Firm have endeavoured to clamp down on sectarian songs, inflammatory flag-waving, and troublesome supporters, using increased levels of policing and surveillance. "'''

and the rest is contained with the Rangers F.C. Supporters articles Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 21:33, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I whole-heartedly agree with both of you, and commend you both for your work on this article. It indeed, is not a news article or blog to be updated everytime a Rangers fan finds himself in the papers for a sectarian breach of the peace - this doesn't belong on the clubs encyclopediec Wiki entry.  I Agree with Andrews revised paragraph above.  Good work. Ricky072 (talk) 21:49, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately I think this is too sanitised - to be a fair reflection of reality, I think it should end with a further sentence that states: "Unfortunately, despite the clubs best efforts, a small minority of supporters continue to sing or shout sectarian abuse." Spiritofstgeorge (talk) 21:56, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The statement you propose, to the effect of "sectarian singing still occurs", is a corrective that is simply unnecessary without the opposing impression ("sectarian singing no longer occurs") being evident within the article. Such a perspective is NOT evident, unless you can show otherwise, therefore your suggestion serves no purpose that I can tell.Gefetane (talk) 23:57, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I have made adjustments to the section with the addition of one referenced sentence to fill an explanatory gap, and one piece of rewording of existing content to a more concise, less verbose version. As this is an attempt at improvement of existing content, as opposed to pushing an alternative/conflicting perspective, I trust these changes are not deemed contentious. Gefetane (talk) 23:25, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * You need to be very careful on this subject mainly became it cannot be to overly sanitised as spirit says otherwise you run into a lot of issues with perceived censorship on the subject which quickly turns into an edit war when people think it should be more detailed. Equally it should be neutral and cover both sides of the story bearing in mind this is an encyclopdia. It shouldn't give undue weight to criticism specifically related to specific individuals as that could run fowl of BLP. Anyway after several peer reviews it's always the sectarianism section that comes up as in issue which will lead to problems if you do want this to be a GA which will be very hard especially since the article needs to be stable for a ga to be given. .  Blethering   Scot  23:33, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree in principle that censorship is to be avoided. As explained, the specific changes made were not "sanitising" but improvement of existing content through rewording to a concise version, minus unnecessary repetition, and the addition of a cited, explanatory sentence where required.Gefetane (talk) 23:49, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I support trimming down that section and moving the detailed examples ect to the article on supporters, i think that paragraph above is very reasonable, covering the main point and linking to the page going into greater detail ensures that it is not censorship. The issues around sectarianism will have been clearly stated in this article. It would certainly still be going into more detail than the Celtic F.C. article. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:55, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

i agree wuith spirit of gorge it is to sanitised another sentance saying that despite the clubs efforrts a small porportation of fans still do it, and maybe a reference of two to recent examples but not detailing them leaving he reader to read up on, then put for further information and deatils pleaser read the Rangers F.C. supporters articles-- Andrewcrawford  ( talk  -  contrib ) 07:37, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

REVISIED PROPOSAL

"During the late 19th century, many immigrants came to Glasgow from Ireland – this was a time of considerable anti-Catholic and anti-Irish sentiment in Scotland. The early success of Celtic, a club with a distinct Irish and Catholic association linked to its founding community, is regarded as seminal in the subsequent adoption by Rangers of a Protestant, Unionist identity. From the early 20th century onwards, Catholic players were not knowingly signed by the club, nor employed in other prominent roles, whilst discrimination against employees who married Catholics has also been described.     Particularly from the 1970s, Rangers came under increasing media pressure over their policy. Although general manager Willie Waddell stated that the club would change its stance, several of the club's directors publicly defended its position, which continued until the late 1980s. 

'''In recent times, both Old Firm teams have taken measures to combat sectarianism. Working alongside the Scottish Parliament, church groups, pressure groups such as Nil by Mouth, schools and community organisations, the Old Firm have endeavoured to clamp down on sectarian songs, inflammatory flag-waving, and troublesome supporters, using increased levels of policing and surveillance. '''

'In 1999, Rangers' vice-chairman Donald Findlay was forced to resign after he was filmed singing sectarian songs, including The Sash and The Billy Boys'' whilst celebrating Rangers' victory in the Scottish Cup during a supporters club event. '''

'''Unfortunately, despite the clubs best efforts, a small minority of supporters continue to sing or shout sectarian abuse and cause trouble at matches and outside matchs due to bigotry. '''

For more detail and examples please see Rangers F.C. Supporters and Sectarianism in Glasgow articles

this is more neutral condensed and still shows there is a problem and refer readers to the other article with more details-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 07:51, 16 August 2012 (UITC)
 * are you aware that there is an article Sectarianism in Glasgow. That should probably be the link article. Blethering   Scot  08:09, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * yeah i was but i wasnt sure which to use maybe best put both, as it covers both issues of supporters and sectarianism ,i have it linked at the bottom as see also Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 08:38, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Andrew, I refer you to the revised, condensed wording and addition of a missing explanatory link within the article for you to incorporate into your version. The edits are explained in revision history. Gefetane (talk) 08:56, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * what revision i dnt see any? i am happy to make changes but i dnt see anything unless i am just missing it-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 09:03, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Here is the up to date version with the improvements described...

'''During the late 19th century, many immigrants came to Glasgow from Ireland – this was a time of considerable anti-Catholic and anti-Irish sentiment in Scotland. The early success of Celtic, a club with a distinct Irish and Catholic association linked to its founding community, is regarded as seminal in the subsequent adoption by Rangers of a Protestant, Unionist identity.[98] From the early 20th century onwards, Catholic players were not knowingly signed by the club,[99] nor employed in other prominent roles, whilst discrimination against employees who married Catholics has also been described.[100][101][102][103] Particularly from the 1970s, Rangers came under increasing media pressure over their policy.[104] Although general manager Willie Waddell stated that the club would change its stance,[105] several of the club's directors publicly defended its position,[106] which continued until the late 1980s.''' Gefetane (talk) 09:26, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The Rangers supporters article is effectively a duplicate of an article that has existed for some time as all it really covers is sectarianism doesn't matter whether supporters or not it's covered. . Unless its changed rapidly to become like the Celtic one and sectarianism mainly in the main article in going to take that to AFD as the article is pointless. People should check that try aren't making duplicate articles. Blethering   Scot  09:07, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The reason cited for the creation was to split as too large in main article. All sectarianism related material should have been split into sectarianism in glasgow and the rivalries well that's not too big for main article so at the moment it defeats any prurpose. Blethering  Scot  09:14, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

i will have a look at it, i was trying to wokr on the main article rnagers fc first but i will look see what cna be done, a i am using arsenal fc page as a model how to strucuture this page Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 09:28, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * the secterainism one is about that, secterainism in glasgow in detqail, the rangers fc supporters one is about there supporters and examples of what they have done, as the section give undue weight in the main aritlce and would fail GA and FA but i will improve supporters one more with layout and bit fo expansion any help be appericated-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 09:30, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll leave it 24 hours and see how it develops but it is not appropriate in that form. The sectarianism in Glasgow cover the rivalry between fans and can be expanded to cover everything that would of been the appropriate place and to be honest the supporters article should not of been created with pretty much all sectarianism when it could and should of just expanded the appropriate article. If it's change closer to the Celtic one then is serves a purpose but should still not focus on sectarianism to that level. If I'm honest the main article could equally fail ga for not covering it fully so that's something to bear in mind. Blethering   Scot  09:37, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok i have redeveloped the page more in line with arsenal fc supporters page, it goign to takea lot fo work to expand the article and iwll require a lot of research to do it, if it gefetane reduced version it would fail GA for it not covering it enough but the version above that i expanded on would be fine for GA might need a little more in it but that could be dealt with after a peer review, that why i am saying insert reference here put examples but only as references, i think the donald findley part should be part of it, its quite reent important one a director having to resign becuas ehe was caught odign it but fan stuff should move away, maybe need to move some of the stuff form the suporters article to sectarainism article but other than that it better now, please give input on the changes so i can wokr on it more to try take it away form dublicaiton article.-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 09:58, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Just to clear up any confusion, what I posted above was merely to illustrate the changes made to the opening paragraph, it was not a suggestion for a holistic "version" that discounts other material.Gefetane (talk) 10:27, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * apogolise i thought you meant for tha tto replafe it full stop, adding your stuff to original replacing the original Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 10:43, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Bear with Andrew - I'm sure he knows what he's doing! Blethering Scot is right that the Rangers Supporters article needs to be brought into line with other supporters articles, not simply focusing on sectarianism, but also references to fanbase demographics, fan organisations perhaps, famous fans etc... I am sure this is all in hand, sorry I can't assist more today, will add to the article later where I can and where is appropriate.Gefetane (talk) 09:47, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

When was arsenal FC formed/founded
i know this is little of topic but it is revelent to this entire debate esicpally given both sides iek precedents....

I dnt care how oyu describe it founded, formed laucnhed i dnt care,m i merely want to knwo when they where founded then i will ask somoething else :)

this is quesiton for new club/same club same, and 1872 only camp and 1872/1873/2012 camp :)-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 14:40, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * On first read of a few sources, I would say 1886. Though the club changed name a few times, and also relocated, the same entity was continuing. Even when it entered voluntary liquidation in 1910, it was bought out and the same entity - called Woolwich Arsenal Football And Athletic Company Limited from the club's incorporation in 1893 - continued until the entity changed its name yet again in 1914 when it dropped the 'Woolwich' from its name. Therefore, not a precedent for what happened to Rangers where the original entity is being liquidated and the 'assets and business interests' have been relaunched /reformed within a new company. Spiritofstgeorge (talk) 16:49, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * i dnt think there isa precdent i never have for any case, just known both sies like to say ther eprecedent. but aresenal where founded in 1886 yes, but where reformed after the club or company i aitn sure was liquidated yet th aesnal fc page makes no meantion of it nor the reforming, but the arsenal fc ownership page does because it talkign about the club owner not the club and the arsenal fc page is talkign about the lcub itself and considering it is feature article means it has went thorugh quite a few checks-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 17:17, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * No, I don't believe Arsenal was liquidated - they were bought after entering liquidation and the company/club lived on. The company then changed its name four years later by dropping 'Woolwich', but it was the same company. The club was therefore not reformed like Rangers. Spiritofstgeorge (talk) 18:28, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

"baught after entering liquidation" shows a complete lack of understanding of liquidation actually is. Ricky072 (talk) 19:13, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Changes to Issues with secterminism sections trying to gain a consensus to change
I am proposing we change the secterainism section to this

During the late 19th century, many immigrants came to Glasgow from Ireland – this was a time of considerable anti-Catholic and anti-Irish sentiment in Scotland. The early success of Celtic, a club with a distinct Irish and Catholic association linked to its founding community, is regarded as seminal in the subsequent adoption by Rangers of a Protestant, Unionist identity. From the early 20th century onwards, Catholic players were not knowingly signed by the club, nor employed in other prominent roles, whilst discrimination against employees who married Catholics has also been described. Particularly from the 1970s, Rangers came under increasing media pressure over their policy. Although general manager Willie Waddell stated that the club would change its stance, several of the club's directors publicly defended its position, which continued until the late 1980s.

In recent times, both Old Firm teams have taken measures to combat sectarianism. Working alongside the Scottish Parliament, church groups, pressure groups such as Nil by Mouth, schools and community organisations, the Old Firm have endeavoured to clamp down on sectarian songs, inflammatory flag-waving, and troublesome supporters, using increased levels of policing and surveillance.

In 1999, Rangers' vice-chairman Donald Findlay was forced to resign after he was filmed singing sectarian songs, whilst celebrating Rangers' victory in the Scottish Cup during a supporters club event.

Unfortunately, despite the clubs best efforts, a small minority of supporters continue to sing or shout sectarian abuse and cause trouble at matches and outside matchs due to bigotry.

For more detail and examples please see Rangers F.C. Supporters and Sectarianism in Glasgow articles

I believe this to be a more neutral stance on this subject and relation to the club, the examples have been move to the supporter article which requires a bit more work to neutralise it, some will move to secteratinism in glasgow article.

Please respond below with Support or Oppose with short statement

As normal no discussion use the below section-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 17:31, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Support - with some edits. --Ricky072 (talk) 19:20, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Discussions
Please bear in mind regardless if you hate or liek rangers, wikipedia is about quailty article this section as is gives undue weight i am not trying to surpress it, if oyu look in the history i acutalyl help get it there, but the last peer review noted this section asa problem so we need ot adress it as well as the history-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 17:40, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Fine, though I believe you could cut half the last sentence (everything after 'abuse'). Spiritofstgeorge (talk) 18:30, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Firstly the Donald findlay section should be changed, as the sash is not secterian, and i can't see any evidence to support he sang anything 'secterian' at all and would advise this section be removed entirely. I also see no reason to include every little incident at the end of examples of indivudal rangers fans being conviected/arrested for secterian singing - if every wikipedia page of every football club recorded similar events of it's fans these pages would become huge news archives. Ricky072 (talk) 19:20, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * im not propusing including every little inciudent merely 2 or 3 from the last 15 years as a reference only no more the rest be in the other articles Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 12:27, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Whether you regard what he sang as sectarian or not is irrelevant - the fact that he held such a high profile position within the club (or should that be company?) and was singing at a Rangers Supporters club event, makes his conduct both relevant and noteworthy. Spiritofstgeorge (talk) 19:46, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I explained this above but perhaps it was missed. The final sentence, to the effect of "sectarian singing still occurs", is a corrective that is unnecessary and illogical without a prior sentence that implies "sectarian singing no longer occurs". There is, quite fairly, no such statement or impression given, it is clearly an ongoing problem being addressed by x,y and z. So there is no need to say "it still occurs" at the end providing its existence is adequately noted within the section. Gefetane (talk) 21:29, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The title is "examples of secterianism" so why would a director singing songs be relevant in this section, if those songs were not sectarian. Were criminal charges ever braught against him?  Did he ever admit to singing 'secarian songs' or issue an apology?  If so please source them, if not it's merely an accusation.  We knwo from sources he sang 'the sash', and once again, there is no evidence to suggest this song is sectarian, and does not contain sectarian lyrics.  So why is Donald findaly singing this song relevant for a section with the heading "examples of secterianism" ? Ricky072 (talk) 21:33, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Added source for you. Note in particular: "In this week's On The Ropes (BBC Radio 4, Tuesday 2 July, 9.00am, repeated at 9.30pm), Donald Findlay QC tells John Humphrys about the effect singing sectarian, anti-Catholic songs at a party for Glasgow Rangers had on his life, and how he, at one stage, even contemplated suicide." and later "...I should have known better, and of all people who shouldn't have done it, it was me, and that was why I resigned." Spiritofstgeorge (talk) 22:52, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Not an admission or direct quote from Fidnaly, he merely states he should have known better. Can you provide conclusive evidence of what he actually sang, and quotes from him, or the club, or perhaps from a police officer, lawyer or judge conclusively stating that Findaly sang a sectarian song.  Many media sources wrongly believe 'The Sash' to be sectarian - but if you reseach this you'll see it's not the case. Ricky072 (talk) 23:00, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I'd also remove this section: "In 1989, when Rangers signed Maurice "Mo" Johnston, "their first major Roman Catholic signing",[107] David Miller, the general secretary of the Rangers' Supporters' Association condemned the signing, saying "It is a sad day for Rangers... I don't want to see a Roman Catholic at Ibrox."[107] " This is a quote from a member of one of many supporters associations, not the club, which this page is an encylopedic reference to, therefore, what is the relevance of placing 1 quote, from 1 supporter in the article?  Does it justify it's own paragraph? Ricky072 (talk) 23:05, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Can we reiterate that making the "Issues with Sectarianism" a list of examples of sectarian incidents, in the style of a news archive, is both inpractical and wholly inappropriate to an generic article on Rangers FC. It was my understanding this had been established, with working versions towards this principle, however one editor has seen fit to add, in isolation, along the lines of "X player used a sectarian slogan" to the section. I have reverted this frivolous addition that is contrary to consensus and would question why, as the user has been engaged actively in these discussions, it was added in the first place?Gefetane (talk) 07:20, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * In the spirit of discussions outlining the need to reduce the length of this section to bring it into line with the context of the article (this is a generic article about Rangers FC, not sectarianism by Rangers FC), material within this section has been condensed through rewording revised on the basis of RETAINING reference to incidents of sectarian singing such as Osasuna, PSV Eindhoven, Villareal and sanctioned incurred as a result. I wish to make clear this is not an attempt at censorship, the incidents have been retained, this is an attempt at improvement through appropriately concise rewording, not removal, of existing material.Gefetane (talk) 08:08, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm in full agreement, right now this paragraph is strucutured in a list which has been updated through out the years, starting with "in 19xx" or "in 20xx", followed by an incident of fans within the news singing somethign the papers have called 'sectarian'. Its structured like a news archive.  This section needs to be condensed into 1 paragraph, of a few sentences detailing relevant examples sectarianism. Ricky072 (talk) 11:01, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * for GA and FA it needs to be removed as it more liek news full stop, they have been moved to the revelent articles i just need a consesnus to update with the stuff above, the donald findley one has to remain on this page as it revleent to the club itself Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 12:06, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Paragraph on Donald Findaly under "issues with sectarianism"
This should be removed as it is inconclusive. Many sources wrongly state that 'The Sash' is sectarian, including the BBC citation from 1999, and another such example would be this guardian article from 2011.

However as Wikipedian editors we strive for accuracy and realise when news sources maybe wrong, or guilty of editorial analysis. That is the case here. http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/police-rangers-fans-can-sing-the-sash.14542926 The Sash and it's lyrics have been questionned several times by the media, the police and the courts. At no time has it every been deemed to be illegal, or sectarian. Wikipedias own entry for the song, at no point, describes the song as being sectarian.

Having researched further there are conflicting reports of what Findaly sang, some state he sang Follow & The Bily Boys, both of which are Rangers songs, which have had 'adjusted lyrics' or 'add-ons' where-by fans of the club have changed lines of the songs to have sectarian content. But again there is no evidence to call upon to tell what exactly Findaly sang, and if any of the words he sang contained secterian content. He was never charged by police for religeous aggrevated breach of the peace, and continued to practice law after the event.

As it stands, and having reviewed numerous sources, there doesnt seem to be enough evidence to conclusively prove that Findlays singing was anything other than distasteful. Ricky072 (talk) 22:58, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The law was only changed to allow a charge of "religeous aggrevated breach of the peace" in 2003, so Donald Findlay could not be charged with that offence as his 'incident was 4 years earlier. Anyway, I post below from this - the words in quotation marks are presented as direct quotes:

On the Ropes - Donald Findlay QC

Tuesday 2 July, 9.00am, BBC Radio 4

In this week's On The Ropes (BBC Radio 4, Tuesday 2 July, 9.00am, repeated at 9.30pm), Donald Findlay QC tells John Humphrys about the effect singing sectarian, anti-Catholic songs at a party for Glasgow Rangers had on his life, and how he, at one stage, even contemplated suicide.

The Scottish advocate, a supporter of the football club from the age of three, describes how his role as vice chairman at the Club was "almost a fantasy that came true".

And then, he says, he blew it. He describes being filmed singing songs at a huge party to celebrate Rangers winning the Scottish cup as a moment of madness: "The team were there, the players were there, songs were sung, not by me initially but by others, and I joined in."

His action led to him being found guilty of professional misconduct, and he resigned as vice chairman at Rangers.

He says many, many people view the songs as sectarian: "But for 90 to 95 per cent of people who would sing these songs and have sung these songs they are not sung in any way as being anti-Catholic, nor are the words meant in the sense that you actually believe them.

"But that was, I suppose, an appalling naivety on my part and I'd failed to take on board that I should have known better, and of all people who shouldn't have done it, it was me, and that was why I resigned."

Spiritofstgeorge (talk) 23:33, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * So where does he state he sung sectarian songs or words? Infact, if anything he claims that "90 to 95% of people these songs aren't anti-catholic".  I wonder what % Findaly puts hismelf in.  This is yet another example of you reading into something and deriving your own conclusion.  Ricky072 (talk) 10:58, 17 August 2012 (UTC)


 * it says it here "Donald Findlay QC tells John Humphrys about the effect singing sectarian, anti-Catholic songs at a party for Glasgow Rangers had on his life, and how he, at one stage, even contemplated suicide."-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 12:31, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid you are reaching your own conclusions through original synthesis. The cite used is from a reliable source and says the songs were sectarian.  Unless you have a equally good cite that discusses the same incident and says they were not sectarian (or perhaps don't mention the word), then I'm afraid you can't just discount what others say.  It is not Wikipedia policy that editors are permitted to use synthesis to "realise when news sources are maybe wrong".
 * In regards to the songs themselves, it hardly matters which were sang, or which lyrics Findlay employed. Fact was he was in trouble for singing sectarian songs.  If they had been simply Rangers fan songs (or the nice clean versions, which seems laughably unlikely) no-one would have bothered.  But if you find it problematic, remove the mention of The Sash if you must.  The rest is fact, sourced and should remain.  -- Escape Orbit  (Talk) 12:53, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The point is, that the BBC, and 1 or 2 other sources i have found, describe 'The sash' as a sectarian song. This is innaccurate, and is also recognised by Wikipedias as being innaccurate, as they have a seperate entry for the song itself, and it does not state the song is sectarian.  Now if i went over to the page, and edited the firstline to state "the sash is a sectarian song...."  citing the BBC, or Guardian as a source, what would the reaction be?  I presume it would throw-up a debate similar to the club/new club debate, in that reliable sources claim, on 1-hand it is a sectarian song, and on another, that it is not.  But ofcourse it is obvious to anyone who reads the lyrics it is not.  The sources which cite Findlay sang sectarian songs, wrongly consider 'the sash' to be sectarian.  As Wikipedia editors striving for accuracy, how can we allow the sentence to remain "Donald Findlay sang sectarian..." on the basis that the BBC source from 1999 states so, but we know better, that infact, the sash is not a sectarian song? Ricky072 (talk) 13:07, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The source I quoted makes no reference to The Sash. It does however make clear that Donald Findlay admits singing songs which are viewed by many people as sectarian, that he "should have known better, and of all people who shouldn't have done it" - he was then found guilty of professional conduct for his actions. Spiritofstgeorge (talk) 13:17, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * He admits singing songs he shouldn't have sung, that is not an admission of singing sectarian songs. He was also found guilty of misconduct.  Donald Findlay has always denied singing songs which were 'sectarian'.  Where is the evidence Findlay sang sectarian songs.  Donald Findlay has his own Wikipedia entry, where it does not categorically state he 'sang sectarian songs'.  The Sash is not a sectarian song and there is no evidence that he Findlay sang sectarian lyrics of any sons.  If you want to categorically state on this page "Donald Findaly sang sectarian songs" the onus is on you to provide hard evidence.  Making such a statement without it, would make Wikipedia vulnerable to legal action for defamation of character by publsihing unfounded allegations as fact. Ricky072 (talk) 13:22, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Ricky whether you liek it or not, sources say he song secterain songs nd if you read the first line of the source spiiritofgeorge gives it clear says it, but you choosign to ingore it, i am very happy to comprise an remove teh sash from teh statement because there is dispute in source whether that is a secterain song that can go to the the sahs article it not relveent here, nither is hte songs he song but the bit he song secterain songs is, ill makea adment on th above change to secterain and psot here pleaser respond if you can accept those changes when i post-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 13:26, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Andrew, this debate is very similar to the 'new club' debate. The BBC published on numerous occasions Rangers were 'a new club' but we rejected this.  The BBC published the 'the sash' is sectarian, and that by singing it, findlay 'sang sectarian songs'.  Again we should reject that, there has been ample evidence since 1999, vindicating 'the sash' as not being sectarian.  What i'm stating here is that to categorically state that 'Findlay sang sectarian songs' then we need concrete evidence to make such an statement.  Donald Findlay's own wikipedia entry treads carefully in this regard, it merely states he has 'been accused of singing sectarian songs' and making sectarian jokes.  It does not categorically state he has done. I'd also question the relvence of placing 'the famine song' in this section - have read the citations, it seems to me that the famine song has been condemed as 'racist' against those of irish heritage.  Sectarianism refers to one's religion, therefore to include a song deemed as 'racist' under the heading of 'sectarianism' seems to be erroneous Ricky072 (talk) 13:32, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * this is not anything liek teh club debate, teh club debate wasnt because bbc saud new club, it was because teh sources where split down the middle some same club some saying new club, if it was a clear answer i would have supported it form teh beginign but i am objective as such i could see th bgiger picture. provide me sources that say ne never sang secterain songs and then you haeva case, i am happy to remove the songs because ther enot revelent, ohhe one song he sung and was caught on film is secterain i know personal it is as i dnt like my family memebrs singing it-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 13:57, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

OK here is the revised setenance "In 1999, Rangers' vice-chairman Donald Findlay was forced to resign after he was filmed singing sectarian songs, whilst celebrating Rangers' victory in the Scottish Cup during a supporters club event" ive not included the soruces but would in teh article-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 13:28, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Strongly Oppose - Even Donald Findlays own Wiki article does not categorically state he sang 'sectarian songs'. Perhaps we should put "was accused of singing sectarian songs", we woudl be within our rights to word it as such and citing the relevant sources.  But there is a lack of evidence to categorically state he sang sectarian songs as matter of fact. Ricky072 (talk) 13:35, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * So you are saying that he was forced to resign, and fined £3500 for professional misconduct because he sang an innocuous song that no-one could prove sectarian?  I would have thought that as a QC he would have easily had the charges dismissed.  But instead he fully admitted culpability and apologies profusely.  For singing a song that was not sectarian, in a video showing him chant "Fuck your Pope and the Vatican"?  It was sectarian, sources say, everyone says. -- Escape Orbit  (Talk) 16:55, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Spiritofgeorge do you havea weblink to that radio interview? just iw ould liek to use it on the article-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 13:28, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

The naming of song names is unnecessary - this is a generic article Rangers with a subsection regarding sectarianism. It is not about terrace chants, or whatever you want to call them. Merely stating "songs regarded as sectarian" is sufficient, any further detail is superfluous content within a section identified as needing condensed already.Gefetane (talk) 14:07, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The actual songs is trivial detail of little importance. All sources say what he sang was sectarian, and the consequences he faced reflect that. That is all that is important. -- Escape Orbit  (Talk) 16:59, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

consensus to condense the history section
i am proposuing condense the history section for GA and FA

this is sort of wha ti think ti should be shorten to

20th Century and early 2000
During the early 1920's rangers enjoy a fruitful time during which they won x title under willie wilton until his death, and x title under sturuth. During the 1970 rangers had to deal with the ibrox disater of 1971 but went onto win eurperon cup winenrs cup in 1972 under the leadership of john grieg During the ninties rangers equal celtic record of 9 titles in a row During 2000 rangers where managed by dick advocaat who brought quite a few trophies to the club, then was succeed by alex mcleish who borught x number trophies back to the club. He was succeed by paul le guen, paul le guen tener was short and not very successful after much anticaption of this manager taking over. After le guen leaving walter smith took over again and enjoy a good time even tohugh there was massive budget constraints due to the clubs debts. After smith left mccoist took over and had a good start to the seaosn but off the fields problems eventally started to catch up on the team and the finish second behind celtic before being expleed form the spl

This needs a bit of work to make it a bti mroe concise and little more detail but it cant be made to much bigger it give undue weight in th history section, the early year, the above sectiona dn administration adn liquidaiton are th important sections

please respond below with agree or disagree

Strongly Disagree Balancing up the seperate parts of the history, substantiating some parts, condensing others, is a good idea. Summing up the entire thing in a few sentences like above is unnecessary and undesirable. Surely the models of FA and GA footie articles are other examples e.g. Manchester United F.C.. Perhaps look at these models.Gefetane (talk) 13:51, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Discussion in the below section only

im not saying the above should be used but i think nineth century and early part of 200 can be sum up much betterArsenal F.C. is another FA but it summarise it better, i support it being mroe details and everyone is welcome to suggest improve to the above but look at the current history it talkign about matchs that isnt required on this page, the current history section caused GA failure and was noted as a problem on the last peer review about 8 months ago Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 14:01, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Club or company?
A question for those who have argued that 'the club' and 'the company' are two separate entities: the article currently says "In 1999, the vice-chairman of the club, Donald Findlay..." Should this not be 'vice-chairman of the company' or was he also, and separately, 'vice-chairman of the club' as well? Spiritofstgeorge (talk) 13:28, 17 August 2012 (UTC)


 * good question, to one i have no idea, the sources say vice charman of the club so we cant say company but it does pose a interesting scenario how can we say the club when he was memebr of the ocmpany.....-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 13:30, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

"Vice Chairman of the Club" is quite sufficient. Changing to "company" is unnecessary and does not read properly.Gefetane (talk) 13:47, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * But we have just spent weeks arguing club/company - you were one of those insisting that they were separate entities. Are you now accepting that the club was itself a company, or are you merely wishing to leave incorrect information in the article because the correct version 'does not read properly'? Spiritofstgeorge (talk) 13:52, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Are you really still struggling with this Spiritofstgeorge? I'm the manager of a resteraunt.  Last year i was the vice-president of a bank.  Before that I was financial controller of an ice cream van.  but if you prefer, i was the manager of a company, the vice-president of a company, and the financial controller of a company. Deary me! Ricky072 (talk) 13:59, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

No. I am saying "Vice Chairman of the Club" is sufficiently accurate. Changing to "company" is unnecessary and does not read properly. If, for some curious reason, you want to dig up an old discussion about club/company/seperate entities etc. for the sake of this one sentence, you will do so without my involvement.Gefetane (talk) 14:01, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I think Spiritofstgeorge is suggesting that some may think "vice-chairman of the club" could be confused as a playing position on the pitch. Where as, of course, he is more properly known as vice chairman of the executive board of the company that owns the football club.  We should clarify this immediately, preferably before he is ruled offside. -- Escape Orbit  (Talk) 17:15, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Well I'm sure editors wouldn't want to confuse readers with any notion that "vice-chairman of the club" meant exactly the same as "vice-chairman of the company" as that may lead people to think that the club and the company were one and the same! Spiritofstgeorge (talk) 18:03, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * agree i am ogign to change it as per escape orbit suggestion Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 18:18, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Efforts to elimate secterainism
ok can on you guys trim this down like you duid the issues part

"In recent times, both Old Firm teams have taken measures to combat sectarianism. Working alongside the Scottish Parliament, church groups, pressure groups such as Nil by Mouth, schools and community organisations, the Old Firm have endeavoured to clamp down on sectarian songs, inflammatory flag-waving, and troublesome supporters, using increased levels of policing and surveillance.

In August 2003 Rangers launched its 'Pride Over Prejudice' campaign to promote social inclusion, which has urged fans to wear only traditional Rangers colours and avoid offensive songs, banners and salutes. This involved publishing the 'Blue Guide', known as the "Wee Blue Book", which contained a list of acceptable songs and was issued to 50,000 supporters in August 2007.

In 2005, Rangers Football in the Community partnered with Celtic to form the 'Old Firm Alliance', an initiative aimed at educating children from across Glasgow about issues like healthy eating and fitness, as well as awareness of anti-social behaviour, sectarianism and racism. The club's 'Follow With Pride' campaign was launched in 2007 to improve the club's image and build on previous anti-racist, anti-sectarian campaigns. The club, through the Rangers Study Centre, is also involved in the "Ready to Learn" project, along with Glasgow City Council.

In 2006 William Gallard, UEFA's Director Of Communications, commended the SFA and Scottish clubs, including Rangers, for their actions in fighting discrimination. In September 2007, UEFA praised Rangers for the measures the club has taken against sectarianism. "

make it more conise and shorter please-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 18:22, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

1998–2006
In 1998 Dick Advocaat accepted the invitation from then Rangers chairman David Murray to become the club's new manager. When Advocaat took charge of Rangers he became the first foreign manager to do so and only the tenth manager in the history of the club. Advocaat's European experience was the main reason behind his appointment. The previous season was the last of seven under Walter Smith, and the first time the club had finished without a trophy in twelve years. Long term members of the squad that had won nine league championships in a row left. With the financial backing from Murray, Advocaat invested heavily in the team and lead the club to the domestic treble, with the league championship was won at Celtic Park on 2 May 1999, with the game marred by Celtic fans who invaded the pitch, and struck referee Hugh Dallas with a coin, injuring his forehead.

The following season the club won the league by a record 21 point margin, and also won the Scottish Cup. This season saw Rangers attempt to make forays into the latter stages of the UEFA Champions League. The Dutchman guided Rangers into the Champions League having beating the UEFA Cup winners Parma en route, sadly, Rangers went out of the group stage. The club then lost to Borussia Dortmund in a penalty shoot-out in the UEFA Cup. In his last season at Rangers, Advocaat guided Gers to the last 16 of the UEFA Cup in the 2001–02 season, but with Celtic leading the league championship by 12 points, Advocaat resigned from the manager's position on 12 December 2001. Advocaat, with the permission of Murray, had invested great sums into the side in an attempt to bring European success to the club. However, with little benefit from the major expenditure, Rangers became burdened with debt after spending £36m on players and ran up debts in the region of £52m.

Alex McLeish had become Rangers boss on 13 December 2001 and initially worked in association with Dick Advocaat who became Director of Football before leaving the Ibrox club later that year. Advocaat also managed the Netherlands national team in a part-time capacity McLeish seemed to encourage performances out of a squad that had under-achieved under Advocaat. McLeish was an instant success at Rangers, winning both the Scottish Cup and League Cup in his first season, but the big prize of the league title was essentially lost before his arrival. McLeish became the sixth Rangers manager to deliver a Treble when he swept the boards in season 2002/03 – his first full season in charge. The League was won on goal difference in a dramatic final day shootout, which delivered Rangers' 50th title.

Rangers' worsening financial state saw many of the team's top players leave in the summer of 2003. Celtic won the league comfortably in season 2003–04, and Rangers failed to win any trophies.

The Bosman signings of Jean-Alain Boumsong and Dado Pršo in the close season of 2004–05 gave Rangers renewed hope of regaining the title from Celtic's grasp. McLeish's team won the 2005 league title on a dramatic last day, an outcome that had looked highly unlikely after Rangers fell five points behind leaders Celtic with just four games remaining. Celtic losing to Motherwell at Fir Park, coupled with Rangers' win at Easter Road meant that the helicopter changed direction and delivered the SPL trophy to Rangers at the Leith ground.

After this success, McLeish and his Rangers team headed into the 2005–06 SPL campaign as favourites to retain the championship. After a reasonable start to the season, including a win over Celtic, Rangers suffered a series of poor results between September and November. This period included a club record of 10 games without a win. However the tenth match of this run, a 1–1 draw with Inter Milan in the Champions League, took Rangers into the last 16 of the Champions League. The club were defeated on the away goals rule by Villarreal. but in reaching this stage of the competition had become the first Scottish team to progress that far in the European Cup since 1993, and the first Scottish team to progress through a European group stage.

On 9 February 2006, it was announced by chairman David Murray that McLeish would be standing down as manager at the end of that season.

Walter Smith's return
On 10 January 2007, former manager Walter Smith was appointed the new manager of Rangers, with Ally McCoist as assistant manager and Kenny McDowall as first-team coach.

The following season Rangers embarked on a UEFA Cup adventure after dropping into the competition from the Champions League. The club progressed to the final, defeating Panathinaikos, Werder Bremen, Sporting Lisbon and Fiorentina along the way. The final was against Zenit St. Petersburg, who were managed by former Rangers manager Dick Advocaat. They lost the match 2–0, amid serious disturbances caused by some supporters. Video evidence was released by the Greater Manchester Police of Rangers fans attacking officers in Manchester city centre following the defeat.

The 2008–09 season saw Rangers make a below-par start to their UEFA Champions League campaign, losing out in the knock-out stage to FBK Kaunas of Lithuania. The financial consequences of the failures to qualify for the Champions League were revealed when the club posted a loss of £3.9m for the six months to December 2008, and in March decided to offer staff the option of voluntary redundancy as a way of cutting costs. Despite a tight title race, on the final day of the league, Rangers managed to claim their 52nd league title. With their title success, Rangers gained automatic entry into the following season's Champions League group stage. Rangers won the Scottish Cup for the 33rd time after defeating Falkirk 1–0 in the final, clinching a double in the process.

At the beginning of the 2009–10 season Rangers had to reduce their squad size by several players due to increasing costs while not having the finances to sign anyone. After a disappointing European campaign where they only picked up two points in the Champions League group stage they made a £13 million profit at the turn of the year. Rangers reached their fifth consecutive domestic cup final where they played St. Mirren in the Scottish League Cup. After having two players sent off in the second half Rangers won the final 1–0 through a goal from Kenny Miller.

On 25 April 2010, Rangers retained their league title with three matches remaining by defeating Hibernian 1–0 with a Kyle Lafferty goal. This was their 53rd Scottish League title. With this success, they again sealed their automatic entry into the 2010–11 Champions League.

During the close season Walter Smith announced the upcoming new season would be his last as manager of Rangers and that the intention was to replace him with Ally McCoist and assistant Kenny McDowall. Smith stated: "I am wholly committed to managing the club next season and when it comes to the end of next season I firmly believe that Ally and Kenny would do a great job and I am glad everybody at the club shares that view."

Smith led Rangers to victory in the League Cup Final over Celtic.

On 6 May 2011 it was confirmed that David Murray had sold his controlling interest in the club (85.3 percent) to Wavetower limited for £1. Wavetower Limited is owned by the company Liberty Capital which in turn is ultimately owned by businessman Craig Whyte, a lifelong supporter of the club.

On 15 May 2011 Rangers secured their third consecutive title by beating Kilmarnock 5–1. The win was Smith's final match in charge of the club.

these sectiosn really do give undue weight if these can be address and consed and made more consise i think the rest of the hsitory section can remain Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 18:34, 17 August 2012 (UTC)