Talk:Ranjit Singh/Archive 2

Desecretion of Ancient Monuments, Muslim Mosques/Tombs
In order for this article to be more neutral, some aspects of Sikh desecration of Muslim monuments, Tombs and Mosques need to be made which are not stated in the article. Many Islamic tombs where broken down, precious marble, gems stolen and in many cases, many of the Islamic monuments where dismantled and shipped elsewhere to built Sikh Temples. The Badshahi Mosque of Lahore was used as a horse stable by the Sikhs and the city of Lahore was generally considered to have been left in a state of neglect as reported by numerous European explorers who recounted the degree of degradation under Sikh Rule. The article needs to be more honest rather than giving a certain bias! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.63.220.150 (talk) 22:48, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * You are a sikh person who is posing as a muslim and talking of hearsay among the sikh community to make themselves feel better. no muslim would ever say the rubbish that you are talking about it. you are just trying to put down muslims so you are posing as a muslim and talking of fairy tales that are common in the sikh community in their hatred of muslims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.219.105.230 (talk) 02:23, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

The above is just hearsay and anti sikh propaganda. Please provide sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.225.105.97 (talk) 11:36, 25 January 2010 (UTC) The British Factor-- The article presents a good account of Ranjit Singh victories and conquest of western Punjab and Peshawar, it ignores the British factor. The article refers to an era when Mighty Muslim Mughal dynasty was at the verge of collapse. As the article has mentioned the Marhata uprise just before the Ranjit Singh time, it was quelled by the Afghan led by Ahmad Shah Abdali (pl see Wikipedia). Before that Nadir Shah of Iran attacked Western India and looted it. The India at this time was divided into small kingdoms. The British had the famous philosophy of divide and rule. In 1839 when Ranjit Singh was making Lahore as his capital, British was engaged in the war against Afghans in the Peshawar area in 1839 (pl. see Wikipedia for reference on British Afghan wars). One can ask the question how the British is fighting the Afghans while the whole Western region of Pakistan is occupied by Maharaja Ranjit Singh. From Ahmad Shah Abdali and Syed Ahmad rallies against Marhatas in the past, the British were worried of the Afghan attack on British army. And that is one of the reason that Ranjit Singh main focus was to weaken the Afghan power with the help of British. That was one of the main reasons when Maharaja Ranjit focused on Western Punjab and Peshawar area instead of spreading east or south. Soon after the death of Ranjit Singh the British took the whole region when they realized the job they wanted was done.

Desecration of Muslim Places The article mentions Ranjit Singh as a secular leader. This contradicts the historical description of his reign. The Sikh religion started in the Muslim Mughal era and was initially supported by the Mughal emperors. When Ranjit Singh took Lahore, the biggest Mosque in Lahore was made horse stable. Pigs were slaughtered in the mosques in addition to widespread bloodshed. In the short history of Sikhs and Indian Muslims before Ranjit, there is nothing that would trigger avenge on Ranjit's part. The only sensible rational points to a bigger plot where the purpose was to divide different groups in India based on their religion and ethnicity to pave way for the establishment of the British empire. The Hindus and Muslims realizing this plot waged the war of Independence in 1857 against British which resulted in brutal failure, massacre of the Indians and colonization of the Indian Subcontinent.

- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.100.215.181 (talk) 03:59, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Protection
I have fully protected the page. Both sides, please list the cause of the dispute and cite reliable sources to supplement your view. Thank you. =Nichalp  «Talk»=  19:20, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

There can be no doubt that Maharaja Ranjit Singh was a Jat. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.202 (talk) 23:42, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Ranjit Singh by Manu Saluja
This portrait, completed in 2009, was not painted during Ranjit Singh's lifetime. It seems to be produced from the artist's imagination and may be incorrect, in that Ranjit Singh was blind in one eye. The portrait, "File:Ranjit Singh, ca 1835-1840.jpg" appears to be more accurate, so it should be restored to the infobox.98.248.224.199 (talk) 06:09, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Facts backed with references being removed. why ?
Gujrat District Gazetteer of 1921 has reference to Ranjit Singhs father Maha singh being a chief of the Chatha Jatt tribe. Why has this fact been removed?--92.21.74.8 (talk) 12:10, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Bogus Map made by sikh putting in urdu words
The map at the beginning is fake and is made by a sikh person who put in urdu words. This is why i hate wikipedia the whole article is fabricated nonsense. The entire sikh history has been disproved many times as nothing more than exaggerations. ranjit singh is probably the worst of the exaggerations, he had hardly achieved anything before they were annexed into the British empire. talking about mughals or durrani empire is one thing but ranjit singh and claiming so called battles is just ridiculous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.219.105.230 (talk) 02:20, 26 March 2011 (UTC)


 * That map was made by User:Khalid_Mahmood who is a prolific editor on the urdu wikipedia. Try not to make sectarian comments because it weakens your arguments by the way.
 * Also you are wrong in your historical analysis. The Sikhs fought continuously for a ridiculous amount of time and suffered horrible losses for a couple hundred years before they were able to achieve the victories of the Sikh misl and Sikh Empire period. Also don't forget that when Sikh armies and states won victories they shared the spoils with punjabi muslims and hindus (like the land reform that took place in just 7 years under Banda Singh Bahadur unlike foreign invaders like the Mughals, Afghans, and Marathas. --Profitoftruth85 (talk) 05:13, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Any person can pose as anyone on wikipedia. the map used in this article is an edited map made and edited by a person. simply editing a map and putting "sikh sarkar" in urdu does not have any use. an alternate map should be put in place. simply using urdu words to give more validity to a map does not work. As for historical analysis, I do not feel that regurgitating rss sikh "history" in wikipedia is going to be of any use. but then again that seems to be the case in wikipedia where a supposed fake battle is made and an article is made on it. The famous battle of panipat in 1761 is only one of the few battles based on facts. In which the marathas were completely and decisively defeated and were pushed out of punjab to the farthest areas of central india. Even then you're not going to get a good wikipedia article on it compared to historians.

Its a shame that Pakistanis would rather connect themselves to foreigners such as Ghazni or Ghori rather than a fellow Punjabi such as Maharaja Ranjit Singh. 174.1.73.129 (talk) 04:38, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Neutrality and Tone
Please can certain paragraphs in this article be edited and written with a less controversial point of view.

It is an important part of Sikh history in the Punjab and should not be allowed to be hijacked by writers who seem to enjoy antagonising other communities or use it as a means to promote personal bias, islamaphobia and propoganda, thus detracting from the subject content.

There is also the danger that with continued objections or resulting wheel wars the entire article could be removed or suspended as a result of anti discrimination policies which WIKI adhere to. The article is an important part of Sikh history in the Punjab and deserving of a more balanced viewpoint which does the subject matter justice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ch ifzaal mehdi (talk • contribs) 09:49, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

The article reeks of bigotry. The figure Maharaja(king-of-kings) Ranjit Singh is a very important figure in the history of India, Pakistan, Sikhism and Punjab and we are yet to see a neutral and correct point of view in the discussion.

Koenig12 (talk) 22:24, 3 August 2012 (UTC)koening12

Invasions and Conquests of Ranjit Singh.
This is detailed article written by 9 different writers about Conquests of Ranjit Singh and published in The Tribune daily.


 * "Maharaja Ranjit Singh’s Subjugation of North Western Frontier.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Desijatt1 (talk • contribs) 18:37, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

This is a great source of information about the Invasions and Conquests of Ranjit Singh because this is written by 9 different writers and there is no chance of bias in it. Desijatt1 (talk) 18:45, 19 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The focus is the year 1799 and prior years. I've already read many historians, there is no need to read more, and I made my self familiar with the situation. Based on what I've read, King Zaman Shah arrived to Lahore with his army, it was his fourth time coming there, he held a meeting with Sikh leaders. Zaman Shah acknowledged the 19-year old Ranjit as the chief Sukerchakia Misl. Zaman Shah had to leave because his brother in Kabul was acting up, so he left Lahore. On his way, I think while crossing the Indus River, he got into some kind of trouble and at that point Ranjit sent his teams to help Zaman Shah make it safe. In the meantime, Ranjit began sending messengers to other Sikh leaders that he was the new leader and that even Zaman Shah of Afghanistan recognized him as such, many of them began joining forces with him, acknowledging him as the rightful governor. Kabul confirmed his recognition as the rightful governor. However, there were some Sikhs who refused to recognize him and then Ranjit began facing them one by one until they all accepted him as their ruler. By 1801, when he had conquered the whole of the Punjab region he declared himself as the King (Maharaja). Ranjit was not fighting with Zaman Shah but with Mahmud Shah who had dethroned Zaman Shah a year before. After this Ranjit began conquering more lands outside Punjab until his death. The article should explain the situation the same way as how it happened. It was not Sikhs vs. Afghans but more like Kings vs. Kings. Of course the Sikh and Afghan armies had to fight, just like Sikhs fought other Sikhs and Afghans fought other Afghans. When the British arrived, they fought both the Sikhs and the Afghans.--Nasir Ghobar (talk) 19:36, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Another fact is that the Afghan army also had many non-Afghans and the Sikh army had many non-Sikhs. Most book writers usually skip this point.--Nasir Ghobar (talk) 19:48, 19 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The above mentioned article by me deals with all his Invasions and Conquests. I also added some information with regard to this article and other reliable sourced in the Invasions and Conquests section, but it was you who removed the properly sourced information and you also got warning for this. So don't remove reliable information added by other users without any reason otherwise you will be blocked. This article is not your personal property that first you remove all the good information and start the article from scrap or zero information according to your desire as you did to many other articles and create mess. Thanks

Desijatt1 (talk) 20:02, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

References

Governor appointed by Zaman Shah
Zaman Shah appointed Ahmad Khan Shananchi as governor of Punjab not Ranjit Singh.

Book written by non-Sikh. This is clearly stated in the book on page 34-35. and there is many other verified sources are available. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Desijatt1 (talk • contribs) 15:27, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=kxtEFA5qqR8C&pg=PA12&dq=ranjit+singh+sansi&as_brr=3&ei=3cgzS9zWGInolQTk4e2rAQ&cd=6#v=onepage&q=ranjit%20singh%20sansi&f Desijatt1 (talk) 15:41, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Tag the appropriate but with the and  tags and raise it here rather than just deleting vast swathes. The article needs a clean up rather than hap hazard adding and deleting. Thanks S H  20:44, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
 * To Desijatt1, the book you cited, which is written by S.R. Kakshi and Rashmi Pathak, states that Zaman Shah Durrani appointed Ahmad Khan Shananchi as governor of Punjab in 1797, "though soon to be pushed aside. In 1798 Shah Zaman led his 4th invasion in Punjab..." It is between 1798 and July 1799 that Zaman Shah appointed the 19 year-old Ranjit Singh as the governor of Punjab and this is what that matters because this article is about Ranjit Singh, this is important fact that has to be included. This was for the first time that a Sikh was made the governor of the Punjab region and that's why it is important that we mention this fact in the early years before him becoming Maharaja. I don't see a reason why someone wants to erace this fact from history. You Sikhs/Indians may not like Afghans in particular but this is an encyclopedia and not a playground for nonsense like that. Please keep your personal feelings to the side.--Nasir Ghobar (talk) 23:21, 18 August 2012 (UTC)


 * To Nasir Ghobar,

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=FzmkFXSgxqgC&pg=PA66&lpg=PA66&dq=maharaja+ranjit+singh+zaman+shah&source=bl&ots=netCC-k_qy&sig=3powr6o3ZkvDynom6ZtfxsUL5ng&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BUMwUMlqipuMAumAgZAD&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=maharaja%20ranjit%20singh%20zaman%20shah&f=false

Book written by Karl J. Schmidt, Page 66 clearly state how Ranjit Singh captures Lahore. Desijatt1 (talk) 01:44, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Karl J. Schmidt does not go into details, he skips things. King Zaman Shah of Afghanistan appointed Rangit Singh as governor of Lahore in 1799.
 * "Zeman made the mistake of appointing a forceful young Sikh chief, Ranjit Singh, as his governor in the Punjab." - Library of Congress Country Studies
 * "The Afghan king, Shah Zaman, confirmed Ranjit Singh as governor..." - Students' Britannica India, Volumes 1-5, by Indu Ramchandani,
 * "Zaman Shah appointed him as governor as a way of making him an ally." Colonialism: An International Social, Cultural, and Political Encyclopedia, by Melvin E. Page, p. 495
 * "The Afghan king, Shah Zaman, confirmed Ranjit Singh as governor of the city" - The History of India by Kenneth Pletcher, p. 248
 * If you google "Zaman Shah appointed Rangit Singh as governor", you'll get many more positive results confirming the claim. I, therefore, warn you that deleting or eracing this highly sourced fact from this article constitutes vandalism.--Nasir Ghobar (talk) 01:53, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Ranjit Singh captured Lahore in 1799 AD. He was not appointed governor.


 * http://www.trcollege.net/study-material/12-history/72-rise-of-sikhs
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=kJO1WIABhPQC&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=maharaja+ranjit+singh+captures+lahore+1799&source=bl&ots=t812KBGd86&sig=QmVvqCY_mbzXZ4Afmql3jZf3VI4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=snwwUM3VBuXIigKzo4Fg&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=maharaja%20ranjit%20singh%20captures%20lahore%201799&f=false
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=ApzUuLiO0jYC&pg=PA171&lpg=PA171&dq=maharaja+ranjit+singh+captures+lahore+1799&source=bl&ots=4xB1H5k-VL&sig=h13HzuXlIJV9iI5V0vMo831M9wM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=snwwUM3VBuXIigKzo4Fg&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=maharaja%20ranjit%20singh%20captures%20lahore%201799&f=false
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=gqIbJz7vMn0C&pg=PA172&lpg=PA172&dq=maharaja+ranjit+singh+captures+lahore+1799&source=bl&ots=fPD2zjRHTu&sig=j-k9N0oFXWBW4iOXNXvJRKlF76Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=snwwUM3VBuXIigKzo4Fg&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=maharaja%20ranjit%20singh%20captures%20lahore%201799&f=false

You will get countless results confirming this claim that Ranjit Singh captured Lahore in 1799 AD. Desijatt1 (talk) 06:02, 19 August 2012 (UTC)


 * These also skip the details. King Zaman Shah and the 19 year old Ranjit Singh established friendly relations in 1799 at which point he (Ranjit) was formally appointed as the governor on the order of King Zaman Shah. This is sourced fact and nobody is denying it except you. The article needs to mention this and other details because readers want to know. It was about 2 years later that Ranjit declared himself King. Your story doesn't make any sense, and what does capturing Lahore has to do with being sworn as governor? In any case, we may add both sides of the story if that makes you happy.--Nasir Ghobar (talk) 08:22, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Desi Jatt appears to have provided some good references, however we need WP:Consensus before we move on.Also please be mindful of WP:Manual of Style ThanksS H 15:50, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * If we can't get WP:Consensus I suggest WP:Mediation. Thanks S H 15:58, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Adding valid important information that is properly sourced does not require consensus. You do not own this article, it is for everyone to edit.--Nasir Ghobar (talk) 16:39, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Oh really? according to you, the sources you are provided are 100% authentic, but reliable sources provided by others including me are not. Different authors skip points etc. What rubbish. Last, I agree on your last point that this is for everyone to edit, but not to provide misleading information, so stop your disruptive editing. Thanks Desijatt1 (talk) 17:35, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I have no idea what your point is. You are just posting links to books and these books don't disagree with me. I'm someone who wants to know who ruled Gujranwala or the whole Punjab territory when Ranjit Singh was born there? Was it the Durrani Empire or the Mughal Empire? How did he capture the city of Lahore when he was only 19 years old and the books say that Afghan King himself was there in the same year along with an Afghan army? Did the Sikhs and Afghans fight in 1799? What was the name of the battle? Were is the source for this? With who did he fight before capturing the city? How did Ranjit become a King in 1801? What was he before 1801? Your version is skipping all this and just goes like this: He succeeded his father at age 18, became King of the Sikh Empire and began fighting the Afghans. This is no way to write an article about someone who formed an empire. I added new information about him imprisoning and later killing his mother, and some sources say he was 17 when he became a leader. Things like these are very important. Look at how well the Ahmad Shah Durrani article is written. It explains all details, like his father and grandfather being killed in a battle when he was a youth, then he was held a prisoner until Nader Shah released him and made him one of his commanders. I want Ranjit Singh's article to be written the same way with all important details.--Nasir Ghobar (talk) 18:14, 19 August 2012 (UTC)


 * For your kind information most of things you mentioned above was mentioned in the article, but you remove most of the information related to it and re-add some rubbish things.

1) Gujranwala was ruled Sukerchakia Misl (Sikh) and last commander of the Misl was Ranjit Singh. Before Ranjit Singh, Gujranwala was ruled by his father and grandfather. After the death of his father he become ruler of this misl, but he was minor that time. Sada Kaur his mother-in-law was also leader of other misl and also political mentor of Ranjit Singh's misl. Both misl are united by Sada Kaur and Ranjit Singh to form one and powerfull misl.

This book deal with things related to Ranjit Singh in very detail and off-course is a very reliable source of information. I'm sure after this you will say things opposite to this. the only thing you wanted is to mislead the information Maharaja Ranjit Singh and tarnish his image. This book also goes very deep how Ranjit Singh captures Lahore that time.

Desijatt1 (talk) 19:39, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=4udb8LsF3-oC&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65&dq=Sada+Kaur+and+Ranjit+Singh&source=bl&ots=XUOtft37p7&sig=OqMkP63xp1pZNyzX6i2EEduUl9o&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JDkxULC3FaKoiQKStoHYCA&ved=0CGgQ6AEwDQ#v=onepage&q=Sada%20Kaur%20and%20Ranjit%20Singh&f=false
 * I'm not talking about who was the local ruler (governor, mayor, district council, and etc.). I didn't come to tarnish anyone's image, the article was very messy and I came to clean it up. The painting in the infobox was not of Ranjit Singh but of an imposter, it's better that we use the 1830 real image of him in the infobox. My intention is to make this article nicely presented without false information or too many unsourced opinions.--Nasir Ghobar (talk) 01:59, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

References