Talk:Rapanui Rock

new photo?
A new post-quake photo would be useful. 65.93.15.125 (talk) 12:46, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Post-quake photograph now in the article. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 09:54, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

tone of opening paragrah
whats with this "was" and "which"? shag rock is still standing and stronger than ever! yeeeeeeeaah! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 111.69.247.109 (talk) 10:11, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * This article is about a notable recorded place that is commonly and usually called Shag Rock. The Maori name for this rock is Rapanui and it has been an important navigational marker and landmark for around 700 years, for both Maori and European navigators, as it stands at the entrance to the [Avon/Heathcote] Estuary. It still exist though it has been much reduced by the 2011 Christchurch Earthquakes and its iconic shape much altered. The resulting pile, now affectionately referred to as Shag Pile or Shagged Rock by some locals (and I can give you a reputable published reference for that!), has not been lost, only changed. But that is life. So we should use the present tense because this place has not gone away, only changed. The iconic heritage should be recorded, yes, and the change noted, and we can grieve for the old icon's loss, but in the future a new heritage will evolve and the new shape may become a new icon. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 22:32, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Have rewritten the lead section in the present tense and tightened up the wording while adding a bit more information. Things to do now include:


 * Add details of the HMS Pandora's survey and Captain Dury's report. - Sources:Lyttelton Times, J.F. Menzies
 * George Day's evidence about crossing the Sumner Bar. - Source: Amodeo
 * Copy rest of information in the lead section into the body and then clean up the lead section to remove references, etc.
 * Art work descriptions and links to works by various artist.
 * Additional photographs that are readily available.
 * - Cameron Dewe (talk) 09:08, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * In 1853, John Robert Godley told the Canterbury Association that vessels of 25 tons could sail from Lyttelton Harbour, navigate the Bar and the Estuary and sail up to Christchurch via the Avon River. He didn't think this was a serious navigation challenge. - from Papers Past. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 08:14, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Article title
The article is about Shag Rock, which is called Rapanui in Māori, so the article should be called by one or other of those names. However, there are other places recorded as Shag Rock (about 8 in NZ alone) and other places called Rapanui (at least one in NZ), but no others I am aware of where both names come together. The Christchurch City Libraries have an article called Rapanui — Shag Rock and this is one of those unofficial place names that really deserves to be given a dual Māori/European name. In Maori such tokatūmoana, literally rocks (toka) in the sea (moana), are given their own names, in this case it is Rapanui. But never in my life have heard this place being referred to as Rapanui Rock! This is a bastardization of both the English and Māori names and indicates the original contributors are not only being somewhat culturally insensitive to both Europeans and Māori but also have not really understood the Wikipedia naming conventions for Articles or the more specific naming conventions for New Zealand place names. Also, looking through the early edit history I can see this started off as a copyright violation of the [cited] Christchurch Library article in any case, so I don't know why they even chose this unfortunate article title. I think this place is sufficiently notable to deserve its own separate article, as it has been the subject of numerous paintings and photographs, as well as described in various books. Reference to its change as lost heritage is also noted in a (not so recently) published book.

Consequently, I think this article should be moved to Shag Rock / Rapanui. This puts the more common English usage first but puts the Māori usage into the title. While this is not an official dual place name, this naming gets around the problem that both names are already used in Wikipedia for other places. If the place is ever given a dual name, which is quite possible, then Rapanui / Shag Rock would still be available, should it ever be needed. Any thoughts before I get bold and make this move? - Cameron Dewe (talk) 22:59, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * In his 1941 book about Sumner, Menzies notes the Sumner Borough Council had resolved to use "Rapanui" to identify the rock. He doesn't say when this happened but it lends weight to there being a form of official recognition of a dual name existing, even though this is not recognised by the New Zealand Geographic Board. Perhaps because it was wartime the Council overlooked communicating its decision to the Board and at the end of the war it was taken over by Christchurch City and the decision forgotten. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 09:54, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Caution about web-page Rapanui — Shag Rock from Christchurch City Libraries
I just noticed that the web page Rapanui — Shag Rock by the Christchurch City Libraries cites Wikipedia. This source appears to be the original source material for the article but has been updated with information from Wikipedia in May 2014. I am thinking of moving this source to an External link, rather than have it as a reference source but it contains other information from an older source too. I think the affected information in this source is probably the post-2010 Earthquake information about sea-stacks, so shouldn't be cited for its geology. This article is also cited in relation to the meaning of the place name, but I think there are other sources that can be used. This article needs a better reference source about its geology. Any ideas? - Cameron Dewe (talk) 19:55, 17 January 2021 (UTC)