Talk:Rape culture/Archive 2

Rape Culture - Additional Sources on Origin
Rape Culture The Film Origin

In 1975, Judy Norsigan, Writing in Women & Health (page 30) described the film:

"In "Rape Culture", we see through the voices of men and women, including rapists, victims, prisoners, rape crisis workers, authors and characters in several popular films, how rape has become built into our way of life."(1)

The film featured "Prisoners Against Rape Inc"(PAR), a not for profit organisations set up by William Fuller and Larry Cannon on September 9, 1973 in conjunction with women fighting rape.(2) The prison administration "approved" self-help status.(3)

PAR was set up after Fuller wrote to the DC Rape Crisis Centre in 1973 and asked for assistance. The Centre had opened in 1972 in response to the high incidence of rape against women of color. Fuller acknowledged his history of rape, murder, and prison rape. He wanted to stop being a rapist. This resulted in a co-operative effort.(4)

The women from the DC Rape Crisis Centre who initiated work with PAR were Loretta Ross, Yulanda Ward and Nkenge Toure. (4) Ross has said that whilst the relationship was seen initially as controversial, it was one of the more interesting aspects of her work at the DC Rape Crisis Centre in the 1970's and 80's. In interview with Joyce Follet, Ross observed:

"..I mean, you could bandage women up all you want to, but if you don’t stop men from raping, what’s the point? Better bandages?".(4)

Maragaret lazarus, the films producers said of this relationship "Their work, in collaboration with members of the DC Rape Crisis Center was groundbreaking.” http://userpages.umbc.edu/~korenman/wmst/rapeculture3.html

The film also featured Mary Daly, radical feminist philosopher, academic, and theologian, and Author Emily Culpepper who discussed rapism, phallocentric morality and it's "unholly trinity of rape, genocide, and war".

Doreen McDowell, a rape victim, talked of her experience, how sex fantasies play a part in rape, and how male identified behaviour in women maintained a "state of siege". Powerful statistical evidence, refuting rape myths, law enforcement and legal views of rape were presented by Joanna Morris, author and statistical co-ordinator for ripe crisis centres across the USA.

The film also looked closely at the mass media, how film-makers, song writers, writers and magazines perpetuated the attitudes to rape, which normalised it and even perpetuated the myth that women wished to be raped. Gone With The Wind, Alfred Hickcock's film Frenzy and Hustler magazine were some of the media used to illustrate the normalisation of rape.

In describing the film, the produces say:

"The film also attempts to expand our society's narrow and sexist concept of rape to its real and accurate limits.".(5)

Lazarus has said of the title;

"The term "rape culture" came out of long discussion that we had about exactly what we were trying to illustrate in the documentary and to my recollection it was the first time it was used."http://userpages.umbc.edu/~korenman/wmst/rapeculture2.html

(1) Women, Health, and Films, Judy Norsigian, Women & Health, Page 30. Vol. 1, Iss. 1, 1975.

(2) Page 45, Crime and social justice, Volume 1, Institute for the Study of Labor and Economic Crisis, 1974

(3) Anonymous Author for the Black Panther Newspaper, 13 no. 5:1-28 (March 22, 1975) - S14062-D021

(4) Voices of Feminism Oral History Project Sophia Smith Collection, Smith College Northampton, MA LORETTA ROSS Interviewed by JOYCE FOLLET

(5) http://www.cambridgedocumentaryfilms.org/rapeculture.html

More sources if needed - and it's most revealing that all references are to the film and no other sources- and There are additional sources that identify more men who were members of "Prisoners Against Rape", including conviction records.

I am struck by how the film, the putative source of Rape Culture as Concept/Term addresses such areas as media - war - genocide - it seems that these are ignored is assessing what is and is not Rape Culture - or noteworthy.

It is noteworthy that William Fuller is on record as having given evidence to Congress in 1978 - "RESEARCH INTO VIOLENT BEHAVIOR".

Loretta Ross also recounts how she met Fuller after he was released. she said "He really thanked me for changing his life." - "He was the source of his own determination and genius, and of course, I often wondered what would’ve happened to William if he’d had opportunities.". The whole interview is fascinating. The racial aspects more so! I have to wonder, If racial issues have not obscured both history and the opportunities to resolve issues earlier on a US basis? I remain concerned as to NPOV and the issue of Systemic Bias. Media-Hound 'D 3rd P^) (talk)  20:28, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Prominent Incidents - Iran - Systemic Bias?
Have found source for Iran - ref "Iranian Women and the Civil Rights Movement in Iran: Feminism Interacted By Majid Mohammadi research fellow at PIIRS, Princeton Uinversity - Journal of International Women‟s Studies Vol. 9 #1 November 2007 - page 6 of linked article.

"Iranian activist women have endeavored to find a way to contest and put an end to cultural phenomena such as the patriarchal state, covert rape culture, compulsory dressing, sexual segregation, men‟s superiority in the family, and gender division of labor."Source

Given the cultural and language differences, as well as the political issues inside and around Iran, it is rare to find any reference to that country. Media-Hound 'D 3rd P^) (talk)  17:12, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Criticism - New Source 2?
Found interesting source from "The Concise Encyclopedia of Sociology" (ISBN: 978-1-4051-8352-9) page 493. Entry by Joyce E Williams. Quite neutral - but also points out that "Rape Culture" is a concept - has varying degree, dependent upon the society/culture - and covers everything from the perfunctory to the institutionalisation of rape.

Under criticism it notes that the concept is "Monolithic" and implies that ultimately all women are victimised by all men. Media-Hound 'D 3rd P^) (talk)  14:00, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Prominent Incidents - DRC-Congo
The following has been brought to may attention:

"Elisee Anidawe is one young victim of Congo's systemic rape culture. She's one of 15,000 women raped every year in Congo, according to Oxfam International. (David Axe)" from Pacific Standard Magazine, June 21, 2011 - [http://www.psmag.com/culture/congos-violent-rape-epidemic-needs-a-cure-32135/ Link To Source. ]

Does this now warrant inclusion of DRC/Congo/Eastern Africa linked to Prominent Incidents - there is a verified source to the term, which allows the concept to be used?

It would be helpful as well if there was discussion with a view to consensus as to WP:MNA and how that needs to be balanced against WP:CSB

I have already queried the correct way to List matters under Prominent incidents. If it is to be listed by country should it be Alphabetical - or would it be more appropriate for it to be listed as rape incidence as a % of population total?

I have already pointed out that there is an issue of undue prominence and that systemic bias seems to be fueling this!

Should related cleanup templates be applied to the whole article until there is consensus - clarity - resolution? Media-hound- thethird (talk) 12:19, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Great find Media-hound. I think this would make a great addition to the article. By the way, if you want to mention a template in a discussion, but not actually use it, check out the tl template. Kaldari (talk) 03:20, 2 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Ref - Congo/Eastern Central Africa and the issue of rape culture - It the term rape culture is also used here U.N. hails DRC rape study - Ref May 13, 2011 - and also notes that it is not simply a matter of War Rape as some may see it.

'''"The AJPH study noted that many of the women highlighted in their study were forced into having sex by their husbands or partners.

At least 8,000 rapes were reported by humanitarian agencies in the DRC in 2010."'''

Not sure why the Request for opinions have been removed - so I'm putting them back!

Given that Congo and many other places on a global scale have met all the definitions of Rape Culture for some time - and there is even the historical perspective - as well as the questions on Synonym (Culture Of Rape, Culture Of Dishonour, Culture Of Shame) and culturally appropriate consideration to avoid systemic bias - American European Bias - and what I have seen and commented upon as advocacy editing to promote certain ideas over global reality - I am putting the tags back.

I did ask if they needed to be applied - that would be to the front page - and I note that has not been addressed.

I am following Wiki recommended policy and seeking collaboration - dialogue - resolution - and have been for some time. It seems that I am following the next step in seeking informal oversight - and then it will be third opinions. If I'm wrong please correct me.

Is the RFC template here on purpose? Is there a dispute that needs outside eyes? APL (talk) 03:47, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The section to address these points concerning Systemic Bias - Anglo-American Focus/Bias - etc is Here! Media-Hound 'D 3rd P^)  (talk)  22:50, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Prominent Incidents - Singapore - Systemic Bias?
Found following ref Rape Culture and Singapore - stated by Slutwalk Singapore:

"How is SlutWalk relevant to Singapore? Isn't it a western thing?

Rape and victim-blaming/slut-shaming are issues which happen the world over, and which are not limited to a particular area/region/culture. In Singapore, the presence of Section 157(d) of the Evidence Act (which allows the credit of the rape survivor to be impeached if they are shown to have “generally immoral character”) has made this movement all the more pressing. The fact that this article exists shows how embedded such ideologies are, which are translated to the day-to-day experiences of women and men who are vulnerable to sexual assault." http://slutwalksg.com/faq/

This is very interesting in that it places Rape Culture ".. a culture in which rape and sexual violence are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone sexual violence" clearly within a Singaporean context - and even articulates how the Singaporean legal system Normalises and Condones matters.

"Why do we have 2 days of SlutWalk? Other countries have only 1.

While rape culture is a global phenomenon, we feel that it is important to contextualize the SlutWalk here, and to tailor it to suit the local context. Therefore, we have set aside one day (3rd Dec) for workshops, talks, and discussions, and the next day (4th Dec) for the actual SlutWalk, which, instead of a march, will be a gathering at Hong Lim Park. There will also be a series of fringe events throughout the month of November to serve as a prelude to the main event. Please see our Where/When page for more details." http://slutwalksg.com/faq/

It is interesting as it not only identifies that Rape Culture is linked to Singapore, but also how it manifests in cultural specific ways and contexts which at least the Singaporeans have recognised need to be addressed in a cultural context.

Singapore is also noted as being Culturally and Socially Conservative, so these comments and views are not only brave, but also highly significant.

There was significant Official obstruction to the events, with legal obstructions occurring, and it being argued by Police that the event had to only include Singaporeans and exclude none Singaporeans. Singapore is stated to be the most ethnically and culturally diverse country on the planet with 46% of the residents being foreign nationals.

Under the Public Entertainments And Meetings (Speakers’ Corner) (Exemption) Order 2008, it is not necessary to apply for a police permit to demonstrate in Speakers’ Corner. The only requirements are that they must be Singapore citizens and that the subject matter may not concern race or religion. According to the Terms and Conditions for events carried out at Speakers’ Corner, ”police Permit must be obtained if permanent residents of Singapore are speaking or organising a demonstration, performance or exhibition, and/or if foreigners are speaking or participating in or organising activities at Speakers’Corner, Hong Lim Park.”

Under Singaporean law the event was allowed - but there remains controversy over how the police used the law to obstruct the event. At no point were any none Singaporean Or Foreign speakers or participants due to take part.

Police advised that any person who was not a Singaporean Resident or who was a Foreigner and attended they were to be asked to stand aside, not take part and observe only from outside the area designated as "Speakers’Corner".

This exclusion was noted to be absent from past events - "Pinkdot" gay rights events, Save the Dolphins Concerts and Anti-death penalty rallies and events. Media-Hound 'D 3rd P^) (talk)  11:46, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Inclusion Of United Kingdom under "Prominent incidents and allegations of rape culture"
The citations provided appear invalid. Neither the link to "Sky News" or the link to publications from "The Havens" rape crisis service utilise the term "Rape Culture".

If this is a valid inclusion, then it raises the issues of Systemic Bias which have been highlighted under the headings above of "1. Neutrality(2)" and "8. Concept Vs Term - Essentially contested concept."

As there is no valid citation for the UK and only Inference, either there needs to be valid use of inference concerning other countries and cultures (full source references supplied above), else the UK reference should be removed.

I do fear that the failure to address the need for Disambiguation and Systemic Bias is simply allowing fundamental issues to be ignored. Media-hound- thethird (talk) 15:41, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Your analysis is correct. There was nothing in the sources mentioning rape culture. I moved the statistics to Rape. Kaldari (talk) 05:34, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Ref Ched Evans (Soccer Player) rape case and the use of social networking. It would appear that this case should feature under a heading of Prominent Incidents - United Kingdom.

The activities of "Kyle Bartley" - past team mate of Evans, and the actions of team-mate "Connor Brown", with comments made via Twitter and other social networking services do address the lede -"..in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone sexual violence." & "...include victim blaming, sexual objectification, and trivializing rape.". The media reports of comments from BBC and other media outlets appear significant. Action by "End Violence Against Women" and "Rape Crisis England and Wales" with police involvement is significant and beyond note worthy.

No-one of note has used the term "Rape-Culture" in connection with the case. The evidence fits the "Concept" - and yet the "Term" is not being used.

It simply illustrates further the issue of Bias and the need to deal with disambiguation. It is the same as the term "Poverty" being used, but if a person is referred to as "Poor" and the term "Poverty" is not used it is dismissed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-17809268 "Ched Evans rape victim 'named and abused online'"

http://www.itv.com/news/wales/2012-04-23/alleged-naming-of-victim-online/ "Alleged naming of victim online"

UK LEGAL NOTE - The news coverage at present has to use the term "Alleged" concerning the naming of the woman as it is a criminal offence - Contempt Of Court. The matter of abuse and negative comment is presently not a Criminal Matter, as no complaint on this to police has been reported or identified as a criminal act.

It is clear from public report that there has been a criminal act and that the victim has been publicly named.

From "End Violence Against Women" - reproduced in full as the hyperlink is likely to change -

"LATEST NEWS

Statement from EVAW and Rape Crisis about abuse and naming of rape victim in Ched Evans trial

"It is profoundly disturbing that the rape victim in the Ched Evans trial has been named and abused on Twitter and other social media sites. It has long been law that rape complainants are protected by lifetime anonymity and those who have named her have been reported to the police for committing a criminal offence. This raises serious questions about the adequacy of the criminal justice system to deal with offences that occur online and we are calling for an urgent review of laws and practices.

However, the case also highlights a bigger issue about the deeply-held but ill-informed beliefs that people still hold about women who experience sexual and other violence, for example that women routinely lie or contribute in some way to the violence. A recent survey by Mumsnet found that negative portrayals of women in the media contributes to them feeling they will not be believed and therefore do not report.

Many men and football fans have chosen to speak out against the abuse in this case and we want to see football clubs and the Football Association take a strong stance against sexism in the sport. We also want the Government to take concerted action to address attitudes that condone violence. This must include ongoing public campaigns to challenge rape myths, work with young people in schools as well as action to tackle sexism online and in our daily newspapers. We cannot afford to shrug our shoulders any longer and hope that this problem will go away."

Apr 2012 " http://www.endviolenceagainstwomen.org.uk/

The recent Mums Net Campaign "http://www.mumsnet.com/campaigns/we-believe-you-mumsnet-rape-awareness-campaign" is also significant and now related to the developments involving Ched Evans etal.

All of the "Evidence" and sources fit within the definitions in the lede - and yet no-one is using the term "Rape-Culture".

Does the matter need to be addressed via Wiki pages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._v_Evans_and_McDonald (Marked For Deletion) and/or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ched_Evans

Is it a prominent Incident of note - or excluded due to semantics and failures to differentiate between "Term" and "Concept"?

Discuss!Media-hound- thethird (talk) 10:22, 23 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Ref Chad Evans Rape Case - Twitter:

'''"Ched Evans rape case: 13th arrest made over naming victim

Naming of victim on Twitter leads to man from Rhyl being held on suspicion of malicious communication"'''

Guardian 02 May 2012 - Link

Given that the activity of naming a Rape Victim, who has protected anonymity by law, is Victim Blaming, Victim Shaming and Hostility towards the victim as well as trivializing rape - does it meet the Notability Levels for Prominent Incident, or is it still required for someone with sufficient prominence to use the term "Rape Culture" before it is seen as applicable? WP:MNA

Again I fear that the focus upon "Term" over "Concept" causes bias and failure to provide a global view under "Prominent Incidents".

There does appear to be an issue around US based campus politics, and resultant Bias, that still needs to be addressed.Media-hound- thethird (talk) 12:28, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Still seems odd that given Rape Culture is a Concept it's getting judged by reference to the term's usage and not assessed against Criteria. Media-Hound 'D 3rd P^) (talk)  01:05, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The UK can now be listed - Guardian Article "Twitter reaction to Ched Evans case shows rape culture is alive and kicking"Monday 23 April 2012 http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/23/ched-evans-rape-culture-twitter.
 * It seems like you're eager to use this wikipedia page to prove a point.
 * It's not the point of Wikipedia to "build a case" to prove that something is real, or that something happens in all regions of the world.
 * Wikipedia's goal is only to repeat that "case" that others have made.
 * This is related to Verifiability, not truth APL (talk) 10:55, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Well APL I see that yet again you are making comment about the person and not the subject- Maybe if you addressed the points made and left out your alleged views as to others it may be more productive. You did ask about the "RFC" at other places on this page. Again if you wish to pass comment the section for that is Here!

...but anyway, I'm eager that Wiki should be accurate - free from systemic bias - provide a full and even global outline of the subject. I do see that the page is tagged "Start-Class" - "High-importance" - and "Outline of culture". I have provided multiple sources and references (all verifiable) which address Rape Culture in different countries and use the Term. I remain mindful of the work of "Michael Parenti - The Culture Struggle - Chapter 5 - The Global Rape Culture" and the examples provided from that verified source on the subject of Rape Culture.Link To Source - If a scholar and writer of note is referencing globally on Rape Culture in many countries, does that address Verifiability, not truth?

Maybe it is that heading "Prominent incidents and allegations of rape culture"? How does one decide what is Prominent - and also how do you verify an allegation? Allegation is of course not recommended under WP:ALLEGED - Expressions of doubt. Is it judged a Prominent Incident due to English language citation in sources and media - or is it judged as prominent by effect and how it relates to the overall subject? If the criteria is verifiability shouldn't the heading read "Verified incidents of rape culture"?

You will have to forgive me if I'm a wiki novice and still dealing with the rambling references and technicalities of the technology - but everyone has to start somewhere. If you believe that the multiple sources I have found, across multiple countries, cultures and language groups are not verified from the sources/links provided and fail to comply withVerifiability, not truth - perhaps you could point out why so that I don't make the same mistakes in future? I have expressed my views about Systemic Bias - the lack of Global view - and then sought out references, as advised, that needed to use the "Term""Rape Culture". I have even sought clarification of what appears to be bias with use of the Term over-riding Concept.

I did ask very specifically referencing upon the Ched Evans case and media coverage:

"Given that the activity of naming a Rape Victim, who has protected anonymity by law, is Victim Blaming, Victim Shaming and Hostility towards the victim as well as trivializing rape - does it meet the Notability Levels for Prominent Incident, or is it still required for someone with sufficient prominence to use the term "Rape Culture" before it is seen as applicable?WP:MNA"

The question remains unanswered. In the interim, I have located a specific reference to the case and incidents which states they are "Rape Culture" (in the view and opionion of at least one person), so now it is clear that it can be included and addressed, doesn't it?

I remain confused that in other links and citations it seems that all that is needed is for someone to apply a Tag reading rape culture to an article and that meets verifiability. The body of the articles cited don't use the term. Some of the referenced works don't use the word combination Rape Culture at all! It does seem inconsistent and even arbitrary.

If I'm getting it wrong and wasting me time, let me know where I'm going wrong so I become a better Wikipedian.

If the sources and references I have located fail Verifiability, not truth let me know why?

Ignoring the Questions and the Subject is not an answer. WP:DGAF - WP:IAR - WP:TTRLT  Media-Hound 'D 3rd P^)  (talk)  17:20, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Prominent Incidents - Lebanon - Systemic Bias?
High Time We Battle Rape Culture in Lebanon

Ref - Nadine Moawad - Al-Akhbar (English Edition) - Published Wednesday, January 11, 2012 - http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/high-time-we-battle-rape-culture-lebanon

Moawad highlights the "Rape Culture" in Lebanon where recent legislation to supposedly protect women from sexual violence was objected to, and marital rape specifically excluded. Any form of rape other than PIV is also excluded.

"..the state should act immediately against rape culture. It must modify the archaic rape laws that offer to drop charges against rapists if they marry their victims. Marital rape should not be excluded from rape crimes."

Linked Protests on 14 January 2012 are covered via social media - Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/events/283385688373672/ (Arabic Edition)

Also:

"Our law (Lebenese Law), article 503 says a rapist can be acquitted if he marries the victim. He would often get a reduced sentence if he proposes marriage. The maximum sentence is 5 years. Husbands are excluded from this law if they rape their wives. Rape is interpreted as a penis penetrating a vagina. All other forms of sexual violence are not criminalized. This is the law the governs rape in Lebanon. This is the law we should revolt against."

Rest in Peace, Myriam Achkar - http://www.nadinemoawad.com/2011/11/rest-in-peace-myriam-achkar/

Further she articulates the Culturally relevant arguments which promote Rape Culture (Concept) such as:

'''ARGUMENT: There is no such thing as marital rape because it is a wife’s duty to give her husband sex, so he can’t possibly rape her. He is just exercising his right.'''

'''ARGUMENT: Marital rape is a Western phenomenon. It doesn’t exist in our countries and this demand is trying to ruin our cultural values.'''

ARGUMENT: Criminalizing marital rape will dismantle the family, fathers will lose respect, and children will be traumatized. http://www.nasawiya.org/web/2011/11/busting-the-myths-around-marital-rape/

Of interest is an interview with Moawad which addresses the Cultural and Political control of net access, skewing access for women, and articulating issues around Net Bias/Systemic Bias. - http://vimeo.com/9950475

Given the Paucity of English Language Sources on the subject of Gender Violence/"Rape Culture" from the region of the Middle East/Arab Culture, and which use the "Term", I believe that these references warrant close scrutiny with a view of Inclusion under Prominent Incidents.

I also remain concerned that the use of the term "Prominent Incidents" is not a valid heading as it promotes the view that "term" and it's usage against individual incidents has a higher value than the "Concept" which requires rational analysis and suitable judgement to maintain NPOV.

Is there a better Heading which should be used to articulate the "Concept" in it's Global Perspective over the "Term" on a cultural/regional/country/English Language basis?

Discuss! Media-hound- thethird (talk) 14:32, 4 May 2012 (UTC)


 * What you can 'systemic bias', I call 'Pi needs to get some sleep before dealing with rape culture'. You're not being ignored, I promise, but I need a solid 12 hours of sleep before I can make a go at this, and it might be a few days before that happens. "Prominent incidents" was decided about eight months or so ago as being about the best possible term for that heading; I still feel that it's very fair. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 15:13, 4 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Being Bold - I would state that the whole page needs to be redrafted, rewritten and the subject addressed correctly. - My reasoning is set out below.

I have been back and looked at the History around the proposal of the heading "Prominent Incidents" - which of course now reads "Prominent incidents and allegations of rape culture".

Rape Culture is the only page in Wikipedia that appears to have such a heading "Prominent Incidents.."! It is noteworthy.

I have to say that it is confusing to understand how one alleges "Rape Culture"? Don't Wiki sources have to be verifiable and not alleged? I even note that the word Alleged ( and related words ) are referenced in Expressions Of Doubt - and to be avoided.

The heading smacks of "Weasel words". It does agree with "..is an informal term for equivocating words and phrases aimed at creating an impression that something specific and meaningful has been said, when in fact only a vague or ambiguous claim, or even a refutation has been communicated." and "Weasel words can imply meaning far beyond the claim actually being made."

It even smacks of the use of Passive and middle voice where the allegation is made, but the person making the allegation is omitted. It allows for allegations to be presented as Valid, and yet the source of that allegation (the editor) is hidden. It does not agree with NPOV. That leads to the issue of Advocacy Editing.

As was said at the outset on the subject of "Prominent Incidents", "I also don't like the section title. It's pretty neutral, but stilted. If you have a better wording, suggest it here or be bold. Thanks! ".

I do believe the heading is stilted as it promotes Bias to looking for the Term in everyday usage (Promoting Systemic Bias) rather than dealing with or illuminating The "Concept". See BUZZWORD see  HIERARCHY.

I also see, from studying the discussion around Prominent Incidents, that there has been a most marked USA centric bias, and '''at no point was there even any discussion of what constituted a Prominent Incident or how anything should be assessed for inclusion against the idea of "Prominent" or "Incident". Prominence is both Objective and Subjective!'''. There seems to have been a consensus default that anything US based was prominent and no consideration of Bias.

Which is more prominent, a USA Frat Rape Joke that goes Viral via the Net, or a Whole Country which has Cultural/Legal/Social practices and views which mean that Rape can be committed with Impunity and without limit - and where there is no Net access (and even linguistic barriers as English is not even a Ligua Franca) that means no Viral Net activity occurs?

Having studied the whole edit history of the page, there has been no attempt to find anything which provided a Global Perspective or any balance against a US centric - English Language Net centric view - and no attempt at avoiding Systemic Bias. I have to even wonder if it is Systemic Bias or "Systematic" bias?

It leaves me with the clear view that the subject was biased by a narrow focus that smacks of Propagandization and Politicisation linked to other concomitant events, such as the advent of Slutwalk.

The use of such phrases as "...which many bloggers alleged.." is not appropriate - and given that only one cite is given the use of the word many is is doubt.

This sentence is most interesting:

"In August and September 2011, Facebook faced criticism in the United States and the UK for refusing to remove pages that allegedly supported rape culture."

There was Criticism from all over the globe, particularly the English Speaking world - criticism from Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc.... And if an abbreviation for The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is to be used, shouldn't a recognised abbreviation for "the United States" also be used - as in USA? It's subtle but Tricky.

I still can see no rational reasoning for there to be a separate heading for "Feminist Theory" as it is more rational for the points raised to be addressed under "Origins".

The heading "Origins and usage" does address Origins and yet the content fails to address Usage at all!

The heading Slutwalk is nonsensical and indicates that Slutwalk means Rape Culture, and that having a Slutwalk is a sign of Rape Culture. I am reminded of the References from multiple sources that make it quite clear that a society that discusses and addresses rape has a lower incidence of rape and is less likely to manifest Rape Culture. The same sources do make comment about rape being a Cultural Trope in the USA, and even links that to cultural issues in the USA around racism and US History.

As It says on Page 150 - "Encyclopedia Of Rape" - Edited by MERRIL D. SMITH - (Greenwood Publishing Group, 2004) - ISBN 0–313–32687–8:

"In the United States the belief that representations of violence reproduce real violence was reinforced in the 1980s and 1990s by an intensified debate of prominent cases of rape, date rape, and sexual harassment within the media. This prominence of rape and sexual violence in popular culture seemed to suggest that American culture is a “rape culture.” However, the term rape culture misleadingly hints that rape occurs more frequently in a culture that talks about rape intensively than in cultures that deny its existence. Instead of documenting the state of real rape, though, the deployment of rape in American popular culture bespeaks the status of rape as a central trope within the American cultural imagination."

The same publication also highlights the issue of race in both a US Historical Context and present day context - From page 109:

"Historically, the rape of African American and lower-class women, for instance, registered only in rare cases, partly because sexual violence has for a long time been considered inherent to sexualities of African Americans and persons of lower-class status, partly because of the supposed insignificance of the “damage” done. Due to the legal status of slaves as chattel and property, the sexual violation of enslaved black women remained largely without legal retribution. To the contrary, during times of slavery the sexual violation of enslaved black women by their white owners became accepted as an institutionalized means of reproducing the slavers’ property. The term interracial rape thus not only foregrounds the incongruence between acts of sexual violence, on the one hand, and the dominant narratives of rape cultures generate, on the other."

I do find it odd that such references to US Culture, History and race issues have failed to be noticed and considered as relevant to the subject of Rape Culture? Why have the Historical manifestations of Rape Culture within US History, illuminated and discussed within quality sources and with academic rigour, not been addressed with NPOV?

It's almost as if Rape Culture is seen to not have existed until the Term was Coined in 1975. That is the same as taking the view that Dinosaurs did not exist until 1842 when the term Dinosauria was coined.

It is also disturbing to see so many references to Rape Culture in the modern day USA described as "Sexual Slavery", and yet Slavery in it's full and correct context, with rape and sexual violence known and recorded historical issues, is not addressed from a Valid Historical Perspective - in fact they have not been addressed at all!NPOV?

I do note that the inequalities around rape, Rape Culture and race are a frequent topic and even a Trope with reference to The USA.

I found these references which are informative:

"The United States was built upon racist and sexually violent practices. One need look no further than the founding of our nation as an illustration of both  a time when Africans were enslaved and forced from their homelands by the millions, when Native Americans were driven west and massacred, and when black women were routinely sexually assaulted by white slave owners. People of color played a vital role in the birth of our country and were rewarded with violation and humiliation. We must know our history." - 2002 - Men Can Stop Rape.

Also:

"Every time we hear a racist joke and say nothing, every time we listen to someone blame a victim of rape and do nothing, and every time we pretend that racism and rape are not our problems, we support the continuation of oppression. We must speak up and speak out. It is not easy, but it is essential. Racism and sexism do not have to be passed from generation to generation. Our voices can make the world safer for us all." - 2002 - Men Can Stop Rape

I also wonder why there are so few references to actions and activity aimed at addressing manifest Rape Culture, and even a historical perspective provided of such work? It seems that Slutwalk is given undue prominence, whilst earlier foundation work by such groups as "Take Back the Night" since 1975 are ignored. Is it that "Take Back the Night" is ignored because they have not themselves stated that they are acting specifically to address "Rape Culture?

I have noted a large number of references online from so many sources that give the clear impression that "Take Back the Night" is seen as linked to the issue of Rape Culture- and even discussed openly as being linked to "Rape Culture". Even Slutwalk organisers have acknowledged the relationship - though I do find some of the reasoning odd - such as:

"In many ways SlutWalk NYC and Take Back the Night have similar goals about ending sexual violence. One difference is that SlutWalk NYC is a daytime event, emphasizing that sexual violence can happen at any time.".http://slutwalknyc.com/FAQ.

Is the issue having sufficient light levels to notice the issue and address it?

There is also the thorny issue of how Slutwalk is seen by some as negative and damaging - even promoting Rape Culture and excluding minority groups.

An Open Letter from Black Women to the SlutWalk reads;

'''""We are deeply concerned. As Black women and girls we find no space in SlutWalk, no space for participation and to unequivocally denounce rape and sexual assault as we have experienced it. We are perplexed by the use of the term “slut” and by any implication that this word, much like the word “Ho” or the “N” word should be re-appropriated. The way in which we are perceived and what happens to us before, during and after sexual assault crosses the boundaries of our mode of dress. Much of this is tied to our particular history. In the United States, where slavery constructed Black female sexualities, Jim Crow kidnappings, rape and lynchings, gender misrepresentations, and more recently, where the Black female immigrant struggle combine, “slut” has different associations for Black women. We do not recognize ourselves nor do we see our lived experiences reflected within SlutWalk and especially not in its brand and its label."'''

Again it would appear that a Buzzword, in this case Slutwalk is gaining undue prominence over the subject and Concept of Rape Culture.

I also note that under "Criticisms" multiple Criticisms have been run into a single paragraph, giving the impression that criticism of the concept of "Rape Culture" and it's usage has been minimal - and those formatting errors cause bias.

I have also located multiple academic criticisms from most reputable sources which are readily found on the net, and yet they have been seemingly ignored. I am still assessing some sources as they are both Positive to Concept and yet negative as to views of outcome. Even highlighting that sources cited in the Wiki were/are internally contradictory on the subject of Rape Culture seems to have been missed.

I remain of the view that there has been Advocacy Editing to the detriment of the subject. There has been a lack of clarity in how the page has been constructed - from layout to content.

As I have been told, I have to find sources that use the "Term" "Rape Culture", and I have been beavering away since January (as time permits) seeking such sources from a Global Perspective. However, It does get very interesting when you are moving out from English and it's Latin/Romance Language roots into other linguistic groups such as Saxon/Nordic/Oriental let alone lesser known and accessible language groups/cultures.

I have found a superb reference (Call weasel wording after it has been studied and assessed P^) ) on the issues of IPV/Sexual Violence and Mythology of Rape (Rape Myths being a major factor and identifier of Rape Culture) concerning Chinese Culture - and it is an academic Tour de Force.

It contrasts in detail the examples, nature, history and manifestations of "Rape Culture" (US Flavour) with Chinese "Rape Culture" - and even provides detailed historical perspectives and explanations, even showing the issues of social inertia which continue after Legal Code changes have occurred (and even how legal code changes are themselves influenced by the same social inertia and underlying influences).

The 111 page, minutely referenced source(649 references) mentions Rape Culture (USA Flavour), but does not use the "Term" in relation to China/Taiwan/Chinese Culture, and so the casual reader would simply assume that the references do not apply to China/Taiwan/Chinese Culture.

It seems that there is no Direct Translation and Analogue for the Term "Rape Culture" in Mandarin and other Oriental languages such as Japanese, Korean etc.

The piece goes to great pains to illustrate the subject over it's 111 pages - and yet It seems that it should be cast aside because the authors have not used the phrases "(The) Chinese Rape Culture" or "China's Rape Culture" or "China is a Rape Culture" or "China has a Rape Culture" or "Oriental Rape Culture".

The source is "RAPE MYTHS IN AMERICAN AND CHINESE LAWS AND LEGAL SYSTEMS: DO TRADITION AND CULTURE MAKE THE DIFFERENCE? - Maryland Series in Contemporary Asian Studies - No4 2007 (191) ISSN 0730-0107 ISBN 1-932330-21-6" - Source

The work, and other related works, are not readily located by use of on-line search engines, as the work does contain Mandarin Pictograms, and as such it is scanned images of the work within a Pdf and not text. The content is not indexable by search engine technology. It is a known limitation of the Net which itself is known to promote Systemic Bias.

It is fascinating that the work details, compares and contrasts the myths that empower "Rape Culture" between two so very different societies and cultural groups across history, and yet the Term "Rape Culture" has no rational or immediate Translation into Mandarin.

The work contains the Term "Rape Culture" so it evidently deals with the Concept as the Term has been used.

Does that mean that the Concept of Rape Culture does not apply - and " a culture in which rape and sexual violence are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone sexual violence. Examples of behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, and trivializing rape " simply has no relevance to over 1 Billion people?

I have to wonder if the superb work, crossing Cultural and Linguistic borders, would even be seen by some to fit within the bounds of "Further Reading"?

I note that the apparent/implied criteria for further reading inclusion doesn't seem to require the term "Rape Culture" to feature in the Title of the work.

Where does one find a Prominent academic or media source for a "Prominent Incident" in the Chinese Diaspora and make sure that the term "Rape Culture" applies for the convenience of Linguistic Bias and Googling?

I have been looking at multiple other Wiki pages which deal with Social Science and Social factors. It is interesting that none believe it's necessary to have a section that deals with "Prominent Incidents" of say racism, sexism, homophobia, rape, misogyny... in fact there seems to be a consensus that Listing Incidents is a poor mode of operation as it does not illuminate the subject - in many ways it's lazy. It also runs the risk of Propagandising and Politicising pages, where it is more about presenting the subject in an authoritative, rational and [ NPOV ] manner.

I have been looking at other sources which discuss the Global Manifestations of "Rape Culture", and they avoid using headings and sub-headings which run the risk of misleading readers into believing there is some form of Hierarchy - and they also avoid Bias due to media reporting and the use of "Rape Culture" as a "Buzzword".

I remain struck by the earliest verifiable source to the "Concept" of "Rape Culture" - Margaret Lazarus - 1975 Film "Rape Culture" and Lazarus' view "The film also attempts to expand our society's narrow and sexist concept of rape to its real and accurate limits.".

Listing individual incidents does not assist in dealing with the real and accurate limits of the subject, especially when the list is being references upon the term and not the concept/subject.

I am aware that one apparent reference to the "Term" has been located from 1974, and yet it has not been possible for the reference to be studied in detail to see if it relates to The Concept "Rape Culture". It is the same as me locating a reference to "The Blue Balls" in a text and concluding, without rational assessment, that it relates to a medical emergency and modern slang.

The reference to "New York Radical Feminists (1974). Rape: The First Sourcebook for Women. New American Library. p. 105." can be viewed via google books - It provides a "Snippet View"(2 lines) which reads (Verbatim);

"..is to focus on the sexual politics of the rapist and the rape culture, not to hammer the nails in the coffin of the victim. The suffering of nellie..."Source

It can be seen that the two words "Rape" and Culture" have been set side by side, and modified with the "Definite Article" which does not agree with the lede for Rape Culture here.

The use of the Definite Article indicates that the author is referring to previous context and content and yet that context in not clear, accessible or open to assessment. Given how wors are indexed and made searchabel by Google Books, if earlier sections of the text had the words "Rape" and "Culture" side by side they should be found by the search engine. It is not possible to discern if that combination of words relates to the Concept of "Rape Culture" being addressed on this wiki page - the Wiki page addresses the matter where there is Zero Article, A Mass Noun. It is not clear if the reference cited falls within that Mass Noun.

There is insufficient context or explanation available and such it would appear to be a poor quality source and incorrectly referenced.

Has the reference been checked against the whole text of ""New York Radical Feminists (1974). Rape: The First Sourcebook for Women" for context and validity? Does the text referenced address The "Concept" of Rape Culture, or is there simply a confluence of two words which is being mistakenly given undue weight?

I have pushed the referencing opportunities via google books (taking revealed lines and searching for them - thereby revealing text lower down the article) and been able to ascertain that there are references to Peyton Place - hence Nellie = Nellie Cross and other literature, but there are no references that illuminate why the phrase "the rape culture" was used and what it relates to. Is it the Novel's Narrative? Is it a wider cultural reference? It is simply not clear.

Overall I do believe that the heading "Prominent incidents and allegations of rape culture" is poor quality, it promotes bias and even empowers and promotes Advocacy Editing, propagandising and politicisation of the page and that needs to be avoided in future, and addressed now to remove it where it is manifest.

Again, Being Bold - I would state that the whole page needs to be redrafted, rewritten and the subject addressed correctly.

However, since some are very unlikely to be willing to do that, (I have already been told that in the views of some the the Wiki page and content is very neutral - and that highlighting Global Sources judged against the "Concept" and not "Term" is Original Research and not addressing the subject and promoting NPOV - and I've even been told that I don't understand the English Language and supposedly don't have English as a First language - so I have dealt with such views and the limits and sought verifiable sources that fit within the limits expressed - and even found Multilingual sources that illuminate the global nature) I would be inclined to use a more suitable heading such as "Examples and Incidents of Rape Culture" - with a clear and rational refocusing upon the concept and a clear move away from, and marked avoidance of, referencing solely upon the Term, which is to the detriment of not only the subject, but also all those people dealing with Rape Culture within their Societies and Cultures where English/USA-Eurocentric bias is of little to no interest to them. I do believe that would be a start in promoting a more Global - NPOV - view of the subject.

I also find it amusing at how the phrase "No Original Research" can in fact be a Term Of Art. I have to wonder if it is appropriate to insist that Plato was involved in Philosophy, without first locating a claim from him that he was a Philosopher - In The Original Greek? P^)"Ironic Reference"

I would even go so far as to look at using a Heading such as "Manifestations Of Rape Culture", as that would allow for rational examples of how the issue is made manifest depending upon Culture in it's widest meaning. It would allow for examples relating to different social groups and countries to be illuminated in a way that is none competitive or Hierarchical. It would offer the opportunity for Culturally Relevant referencing respecting the whole subject. Failing that Examples of Rape Culture is a far more neutral and appropriate heading which allows the same opportunity to manifest NPOV and remove Systemic Bias.

Examples of Rape Culture also allows for the complexity of the subject to be addressed - Ref Religious/Cultural influences and causes - social causes such as war/natural disaster - media effects/attribution - even the fluctuating nature of how a Rape Culture can be manifested such as collapse of social barriers due to warfare/natural disaster/social change.

There is a fallacy that Rape Culture is only mutable in one direction - when it can both wax and wane due to cultural changes - Ref Afghanistan which had a low incidence of rape prior to the Soviet Invasion/occupation and the ousting of a moderate progressive government, follow on CIA funding of the Taliban/mujahideen - the emergence of al-Qaeda and the ongoing Afghan war. It does cover a 40 year window and two generations. That in no way indiactes that the issue of Rape Culture is not embedded in Islamic Consciousness and cultural practices (Ref - Sheik Hilali's speech - Women are Like Cat Food - Australia - Prominent Incident) but it does show just how social change can move the issue from one level to a worse level.

Even the reaction of Black Women to Slutwalk is indicative of how Social Change for one group can been seen as detrimental and negative to another group. It actually illuminates that complexities Of Rape Culture, and the problems in dealing with it.

I would avoid any use of lists as they do appear lazy and only promotes bias and poor quality editing. The focus all too often becomes upon how an example or reference fits within the list/Hierarchy to the detriment of the actual subject.

Avoidance of lists promotes Rational assessment of the subject against The Concept and avoidance of lazy editing by using the Term as a poor quality shortcut and BUZZWORD. I have already commented that the use of Rape Culture has taken on the pattern of a modern day Shibboleth.

I have noted that on other Wiki pages editors have gone to great lengths to illuminate subjects and avoid narrowness, caused by focusing simply upon a Term to the detriment of the Concept.

Again, I remain concerned that the lede stating "Rape culture is a term or concept used to describe..." is misleading. The Concept is one thing and the Term and it's usage quite another. The content of the Wiki entry fails to differentiate between the two at any point, and that leads to the assumption that they are the same - a well known fallacy that leads to Reification. Using the Term Does not Prove the Concept.

Only by assessing matters against the Concept is it possible to asses if the Term is being used correctly - and it is possible for the Concept to apply and the Term still not be used, due to the use of synonyms such as "Culture Of Rape", "Culture Of Shame", "Culture Of Dishonour" - from the French also "la banalisation du viol" featuring heavily in matters relating to Africa and Oriental settings where French has been a colonial language, with a direct translation of "The Trivialisation Of Rape".Refs Republic of the Congo - Democratic Republic of the Congo - Côte d'Ivoire

I have even gone to the trouble of providing sources which show the Translation/Synonym issue, with those sources being Bi-lingual - but it seems that such a source is seen as original research - even if the contents can be verified by looking at them, and the sources are most authoritative and academic!

Maybe the issue of synonym needs to still be addressed, relative to the Concept so, that the ""Term"" "Rape Culture" is placed in it's rational place on a Global Scale within the Concept and not given undue Prominence or allowed to promote systemic bias due to it being treated as a BUZZWORD?

So, Being Bold - I do believe that there needs to be a fundamental re-evaluation and re-drafting of the whole "Rape Culture" Wiki page, to remove Systemic Bias - Layout which promotes the improper focus upon "Term" as  BUZZWORD needs to be removed - for there to be a far more rational presentation of the subject on a Global Basis with NPOV, so that users of Wikipedia are not lead into error and secondary bias due to the page being a poor quality source when it can be so much better and have a valid  Global NPOV.

I do fear that just tinkering with content won't result in a good outcome, or address the issues of Systemic Bias.

Sometimes, you just have to go back to the start - and start all over again. Media-hound- thethird (talk) 22:20, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
 * tl;dr. Kaldari (talk) 22:57, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
 * WP:DGAF - WP:IAR - WP:TTRLT - P^)Media-hound- thethird (talk) 23:50, 5 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Why did you link those three articles? WP:DGAF urges editors to be more mellow, and not let anything bother them. WP:IAR, urges editors to not get bogged down by rules lawyering, and WP:TTRLT urges editors to find unconventional solutions to problems.
 * What were you trying to communicate by directing those at Kaldari? To me, they seem to have no relevance to anything else that's been posted here. APL (talk) 03:54, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
 * What are you trying to communicate here? Why are you asking questions about the person, and not addressing the subject and the issues of systemic bias that have been raised? The section to address those is Here! WP:DGAF - WP:IAR - WP:TTRLT   Media-Hound 'D 3rd P^)  (talk)  22:30, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Be careful. If you spout nonsense and then refuse to explain it you probably eventually be blocked for uncivil editing. APL (talk) 10:59, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Concept Vs Term - Essentially contested concept
Do we need to address "Rape Culture (disambiguation)"? So that this page can stop being a Cause célèbre and a source of misinformation and constantly changing content that does not serve Wikipedia or its users?

There is a most basic and fundamental issue as to NPOV and content, that still needs to be specifically addressed.

Having studied the extensive edit history, and constant changing frames of reference and associated content, it does appear that the issue is having to be revisited repeatedly as there is an Essentially contested concept.

"Rape Culture", and how it is used, has taken on the nature of a modern day Shibboleth, and it would appear that This Wiki Entry is being used to promote this, due to conflicting parties, interests and "Advocacy Editing".

Rape Culture as a "Concept" is recognised as being a factor of warfare and even of societies/social groups/institutions. There is a "Qualitative Assessment" against Criteria. Societies/cultures/environments which fail to legislate against and act on any form of rape, judged against international and even internal societal standards, can be seen as and even labelled as a Rape Culture and allowing Rape Culture.

There are also relevant synonyms which apply, such as "Culture Of Rape" and even diplomatic considerations in how such labels and attributions are applied to societies - countries - environments, so as to promote change and not assign stigma.

In usage of the "Term", it appears "Quantitative Assessment" and Measures such as official statistics are predominately used. This causes some to famously state that the USA is a Rape Culture, and stats prove it.

At the same time, such claims actually minimise and marginalise millions of other Rape Victims and Rape Survivors around the globe, as they are not part of any statistical analyses and so made to "Not Count". That is terrible and in fact against the very definitions of "Rape Culture" in the lede as it does show "prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media condone, normalize, excuse, or tolerate sexual violence."

It is causing this entry to have repeated internal Inconsistency and Irrational content that contradicts the subject and even makes Wikipedia party to ignoring and unwittingly prompting Rape Culture - the reality.

It is "irrational" to presume that during the Rwandan Genocide "Rape Culture" was not a factor because statistics were or are not kept. There is ongoing "Systemic Bias" that fails to differentiate "concept" and "term", and fails to address "Qualitative Assessment" against "Quantitative Assessment".

It would seem that until there is recognition of the differences, there will be little progress. Does there need to be at least two separate Wiki entries to resolve this issue? One for "Concept" and one addressing the "Term" and its complexity of uses, coming from multiple definitions across multiple sources that apply different Quantitative measures?

How is this conflict best resolved to maintain NPOV and to meet Five Pillars?

Suggested pages:


 * Rape Culture (Concept)
 * Rape Culture (Term)
 * Rape Culture (Film)

All three rationally interrelate and promote NPOV and promote;

"articles that document and explain the major points of view in a balanced and impartial manner. We avoid advocacy and we characterize information and issues rather than debate them. In some areas there may be just one well-recognized point of view; in other areas we describe multiple points of view, presenting each accurately and in context, and not presenting any point of view as "the truth" or "the best view"

This would provide 4 rational entry points/pages to the subject, allow pages to be rationally cross referenced and promote NPOV in all areas to maintain Wikipedia Core Values and Five Pillars.

Wikipedia can not prevent external users from Linking to one page over another, should they wish to promote a particular view and advocate for that view. It is a core value of Wikipedia that information provided does provide a rational NPOV, and allows users access to all NPOVs on the subject. It appears that Core Values and responsibility is not being met.

The page history and edit history does indicate that there has been an ongoing pattern of "Advocacy Editing", to promote one point of view over others. This pattern needs to be addressed and resolved.

Is this a rational suggestion to stop the observable patterns of "Drive By" and Advocacy Editing and to improve matters for all Wiki Users and Editors?

Media-hound- thethird (talk) 16:58, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with most of your points. However, it is important to keep the idea of article scope in mind. The topics of war rape and prison rape have their own dedicated articles. It would not be very useful to reproduce most of their content here simply because they are also part of rape culture. But on the other hand, they should not be excluded. As a general guideline, the degree to which they are included in the article should be proportional to how often they are discussed in the specific context of rape culture in reliable secondary sources (according to the WP:WEIGHT policy). If you have any examples of "drive by" or "advocacy" edits that need to be addressed, please cite them specifically. Otherwise, it's hard to tell what you are referring to. Kaldari (talk) 21:15, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Kaldari - WP:WEIGHT "An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject".


 * Can you provide any ideas on how that would be best implemented within the article? It would seem that Slutwalk has undue prominence and I believe it has it's own page. Anglo-American focus


 * It is apparent that due weight needs to be considered carefully due to the significance of the Subject - and that the uses of the compound noun "Rape Culture" has through usage become significantly more complex since 1975. I have been struck by the statement of the Film makers who Coined the term. "The film also attempts to expand our society's narrow and sexist concept of rape to its real and accurate limits.".


 * "The Wikipedia project suffers systemic bias that naturally grows from its contributors' demographic groups, manifesting an imbalanced coverage of a subject, thereby discriminating against the less represented demographic groups."


 * There is the rather large issue of "Synonym" which I have raised - and yet no-one seems to wish to comment on that. Maybe if you add "Synonym" as used by groups such as the UN, Governments and even Media, you may recognise the need for a Disambiguation. The use of the Compound Noun "Rape Culture" is being swamped and lost by US-centric usage linked to Slutwalk. Anglo-American focus Have you been reading the UN reports on Congo, Rwanda, Somalia, Afghanistan etc? The UN use synonyms such as "Culture Of Rape" for diplomatic reasons - but they are still dealing with "Rape Culture". What do you suggest - a wiki page saying "Culture Of Rape" is a synonym for Rape Culture?


 * I am interested in the views of other editors as well!Media-hound- thethird (talk) 04:09, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I would love to see more international information added. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find much information on rape culture (or cultures of rape) outside of the US, not because rape culture doesn't exist outside the US, but because the cultural aspects aren't analyzed as much as they have been in the US. I can find plenty of statistics, but very little analysis of culture. If you know of some, please don't hesitate to contribute. The countries you mention, however, probably have more relevance to war rape than a "general" culture of rape. In other words, it would be hard to separate the aspects of those country's regular (non-wartime) culture that contribute to rape from their war-time rape culture. Regarding slutwalk, I only see 2 sentences about them in the article, which doesn't seem excessive. They are one of the most prominent movements in the world directing attention to rape culture, so they should at least be mentioned. Take a look at this Google Trends graph. You'll see "rape culture" emerging as a search term about the same time as "slutwalk", and you'll see "slutwalk" exceed "feminism" in search popularity during the middle of 2011 (demonstrating its prominence). Kaldari (talk) 06:26, 15 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Kaldari Ref SYSTEMIC BIAS - You are imposing ideas that are rather limited and narrow


 * What would some have to do to get recognition. '''Have a Slutwalk in a Mine Field?... and notify the American Media in advance? '


 * Have you read "A Scourge to the Pillar of Neutrality: A WikiProject - Fighting Systemic Bias"


 * - and as for "Slutwalk" - you have missed out "Take Back The Night" on going since the 1970's and here is a nice entry too "'SlutWalks' Take Over from 'Take Back the Night'"


 * Is there an issue that History which Pre dates public access to the Internet is not considered - or the links between the development of the Concept of Rape Culture and Activism that resulted?


 * Why is it that NOT under "Prominent incidents and allegations of rape culture" There is a Bizarre correlation between incidents linked to the history and occurrence of Slutwalk in the USA - and why are the countries NOT listed Alphabetically or Why are incidents not listed in date order which would both place "South Africa" First? There is a rather large issue of Priority and Precedence which does need to be looked at, as I do believe we have manifest "Systemic Bias"!


 * How About This "BBC News:Cameroonian farmers in anti-rape protest Thousands of women are refusing to work on farms in north-west Cameroon's Wum district after a spate of rapes and assaults blamed on cattle herders."  - What is the issue? CNN and Fox News too busy? Systemic Bias???


 * Constraints in Seeking Justice for Rape Victims in Cameroon: "It is in this light that the United Nations declared rape in Kinshasa 2006 as a crime against humanity. In Cameroon, rape cases are the most underreported probably due to stigma and shame coupled with the culture of the people and the long judicial procedure.". So does that meet the criteria of Rape Culture as a Concept? YES! Does the Cameroonian Government commit Political Suicide and say Cameroon is A Rape Culture - NO! So we have conflict of Concept Vs Term, and it seems that some also don't like Cameroon Being Alphabetically before USA. - Systemic Bias?


 * "BBC News - Indonesian women stage skirt protest over rape remarks - Dozens of Indonesian women wearing miniskirts have protested in Jakarta after the city governor blamed rapes on provocative clothing."


 * "Jakarta governor is ripped by miniskirted women for his comment on provocative dress" - "Nothing illustrates the strains on Indonesian society better than what happened in Jakarta when the city governor, Fauzi Bowo, said last week that women who wear miniskirts in public are inviting rape."


 * Sorry - What is the Issue? Does Translation of either slutwalk or Rape Culture into culturally appropriate language where the word Slut in any from is offensive and pejorative that it would never be useddue to Cultural And Religious Sensibilities and Norms in countries other than The USA and other Nations with English as the Lingua Franca? Systemic Bias???'


 * "India - Slutwalk' sex harassment protest held in Delhi"


 * what is the issue there? They use the very term "Slutwalk" and it's in English due to past British Colonial Rule and people having English as a second language, and "India and Pakistan's Code of Dishonor - By SALMAN RUSHDIE - NY TIMES"


 * Is it that Indian Women protesting "Rape Culture" that even gets covered in the NY Times don't count because of ....? Is it BBC and NY times Bias that is the issue?


 * How odd that Even when "Slutwalk" the term is used - and given how readers are presented with "Slutwalk! as clearly connected to The use of "Rape Culture", clear incidents outside the USA are ignored!


 * There IS an Aberrant Focus upon the TERM at the Expense of the CONCEPT and people - especially those who do not have English as a First language and where Media such as CNN/Fox are not on tap!


 * Again - What would some have to do to get recognition. Have a Slutwalk in a Mine Field?... and notify the American Media in advance? 


 * Bear in mind that the "Ironic Use of the term "Slut" does not translate readily outside of English.


 * Given cultural and even religious sensibilities women using any attempt at direct translation of "Slut" + "Walk" in countries with a Moslem Majority would be in breach of Sharia Law - and actually demeaning women and acting against their own religion and cultural norms - the American Constitution Does Not Apply regarding Religion or Free Speech.. It's not the USA.


 * Failure to recognise such does have big Issues around Systemic Bias.


 * INTERNATIONAL PERSPECTIVE
 * War's overlooked victims - Rape is horrifyingly widespread in conflicts all around the world


 * To Quote"Take Congo; it highlights both how horribly common rape is, and how hard it is to document and measure, let alone stop. The eastern part of the country has been a seething mess since the Rwandan genocide of 1994. In 2008 the International Rescue Committee (IRC), a humanitarian group, estimated that 5.4m people had died in “Africa’s world war”. Despite peace deals in 2003 and 2008, the tempest of violence has yet fully to subside. As Congo’s army and myriad militias do battle, the civilians suffer most. Rape has become an ugly and defining feature of the conflict."


 * That was Google 1 on "Culture of Rape"+"Bosnia" - ref the lede "a culture in which rape and sexual violence are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media condone, normalize, excuse, or tolerate sexual violence."


 * YOU seen to be Over-heavily Referenced on the "TERM" "Slutwalk at the expense of the "CONCEPT". Try this as a search term in Google ""Culture Of Rape"+"United Nations"" - ref


 * '''Kurd Women Fight the 'Culture of Rape' | IPS
 * '''Hate crimes: The rise of 'corrective' rape in South Africa
 * Pakistan culture of rape of non-Muslims girls
 * Violence against women: War's overlooked victims - Rape is horrifyingly widespread in conflicts all around the world | The Economist "Roger Meece, the head of the United Nations in Congo, told .... But years of fighting have resulted in a culture of rape and violence,"
 * and there are so many more......


 * It would appear that some have been using very Limited Frames of reference due to failures to deal with the very nature of "Rape Culture" Concept Vs Term and have been using Language Bias and Systemic Bias to skew the entries and not represent Global Reality.


 * There are some very interesting google Trends maps to look at
 * Rape vs Slutwalk
 * Rape culture vs Rape


 * And it's also very interesting to look at the countries that search terms are being applied to. and which countries are being highlighted!


 * Of course let is not forget the Systemic Bias issue caused by both language and net access.


 * Are there relevant Google Trends  looking at different languages One Against the Other - Say English vs Spanish  - or  English vs Arabic - or English Vs ??????


 * What is the Dominant language used by Women in say DRC Congo - and do they have net access to Google and become "Trendy" on Google?


 * Is there an issue of Systemic Bias caused by Over Reliance on Technology and Net Access to Skew Reality?


 * One wonders if Editors need to consider is it's unreasonable for people dealing with Rape Culture in rurally isolated parts of the world with poverty and no access to the net for such people to not be googling terms, writing blogs and making sure they are translated into English so they count on a google trends graph?


 * Again I am very interested in Other Editors Opinions, especially on the issue of Sytemic Bias. Media-hound- thethird (talk) 19:01, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Feel free to re-order the incidents section however you feel makes sense. It looks like you've found some potentially useful sources. Why not use those sources to help write the article rather than fighting against straw men here on the talk page. My only requirement is that your sources actually discuss the culture and not just rape, per the topic of the article. Cheers. Kaldari (talk) 22:59, 15 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Kaldari - there are no [straw men] - It's a rather significant point concerning "Synonym" and Language Bias that is negating the "Concept" in preference for "Term" usage in ENGLISH - and creating "Systemic Bias"! You have not addressed the issues raised.


 * [Anglo-American focus]
 * "Wikipedia seems to have an Anglo-American focus. Is this contrary to the neutral point of view?


 * Yes, it is, especially when dealing with articles that require an international perspective. The presence of articles written from a United States or European Anglophone perspective is simply a reflection of the fact that there are many U.S. and European Anglophone people working on the project. This is an ongoing problem that should be corrected by active collaboration between Anglo-Americans and people from other countries. But rather than introducing their own cultural bias, they should seek to improve articles by removing any examples of cultural bias that they encounter, or making readers **aware** of them.


 * Where do you suggest the entries should be made to address this issue? It not sufficient or appropriate for them to simply be listed under [Criticisms and counterexamples]


 * It has been raised repeatedly and still not addressed. Examples
 * In Italian the translation of Rape Culture is ["Cultura dello stupro" - Wikipedia Italy] Direct Translation is "Culture Of Rape".
 * In Spanish the Term is "[Cultura De La Violación]" Direct Translation is "Culture Of Rape".
 * In French it is [Culture Du Viol] Direct Translation is "Culture Of Rape".


 * Do you want me to go into Translation on a Culturally Relevant level for none Romance Language groups where the use of the term "Rape" is hardly used and "Rape Culture" ends up as translated to mean "Culture Of Dishonour" and "Culture Of Shame"? ... and don't go Googling and come back with claims that they only occur in Old English.


 * Here's an interesting insight from Time - which went to the trouble of addressing Culturally Relevant Language, but did omit the Buzz word form "Rape Culture". [Stories of Mass Rape: Sifting Through Rumor and Taboo in Syria - Monday, June 20, 2011]


 * "In East Timor, for example, human rights groups estimate that, since the invasion in 1975, one third of East Timor’s population has been killed, disappeared or died of war-induced famine. In many cases, widows were internally displaced, seeking refuge in the hills, or moved at gunpoint to camps in West Timor, becoming victims of rape. They have often been reluctant to speak out, fearing retaliation or ostracism by their communities and families. As a result, many cases of sexual violence have gone unreported."[UN Source - December2001. Widowhood: invisible women, secluded or excluded]


 * These Tick all the boxes for The Concept Of Rape Culture - "a culture in which rape and sexual violence are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media condone, normalize, excuse, or tolerate sexual violence." - and yet because it is not tagged with either the term "Rape Culture" or "Culture Of Rape", it gets ignored. Is that the responsibility of the Rape Victim, or those who keep confusing "Concept" and "Term" and giving one greater weight due to Cultural and Linguistic Bias - Systemic Bias?


 * Of interest are the figures quoted here on Wikipedia, which show that Liberian Women women have a Statistically higher incidence of rape than occurs in The USA - so it also raises the issue again of "Qualitative Assessment" vs "Quantitative Assessment" - and also shows again just how Wikipedia is repeatedly internally Inconsistent and misleading. If the USA and South Africa are rape culture incarnate, why are Liberian Women not being highlighted. Is it due to someone not having typed "Liberia - Rape Culture"? Maybe the people in Liberia have been busy with some other issues that were more Statistical Significant than Net Access?


 * Consider the Vietnamese Boat People. There you have figures of Rape which exceed both USA and Liberia. Is it not "Rape Culture" because Maritime Law and international conventions of Piracy fail to mention "Rape Culture" - and it depends very much on which country the vessel is registered in, and applicable laws in that country. So if the vessel has no registration, the vessel and all passengers are open season for rape, and the legal loopholes allow "Rape Culture" to flourish. Have a look at [www.lipcon.com]


 * There is a most BASIC issue here. The Concept of "Rape Culture" applies globally, but due to Cultural Norms and Societal Norms linked to those Language Bias Millions and Even Billions of people keep getting ignored. Because of the English language bias in this article where "Global Concept" and "English Language Term" are being mixed - we have Fundamental Systemic Bias.


 * There is no Evidence that the concept of "Rape Culture" is so narrowly defined as to only apply to one country, and yet because of Linguistic Bias and Even The Citation Biases which favour only one language, it appears that "Rape Culture" only applies to certain language groups (English) and it's only to be applied by English speakers in perverse, irrational and biased ways.


 * That is why It is suggested that there be Disambiguation. That is not a Straw Man, it is about respecting all people on a global basis where they are dealing with "Rape Culture" within the Culture and Societies they live in. It also acts to address the Systemic Bias and patterns of some editors where they are focused upon one Idea over the other. Either the entry has to address both "Concept" and "Term" and differentiate rationally, else Disambiguation is the only rational and respectful path.


 * Could you provide Rational argument as to how to resolve the Imbalance that has been going on for so long? I note that when I raised the issues first the response from other editors was to disparage the issues and myself. So before moving forward there is a need to address issues - so that Disparagement of all parties is not a factor.


 * Again - Could you provide Rational argument as to how to resolve the Imbalance that has been going on for so long?


 * If not, could you advise of experienced editors who can be contacted and I can discuss the fundamental issues with, so that progress to rational resolution can be made? Media-hound- thethird (talk) 17:02, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * If you want to discuss the international scope of rape culture (or "culture of rape" or culture du viol or whatever) feel free to do it in this article. I have no objection. Indeed, I would certainly welcome such additions. Kaldari (talk) 05:03, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

--- My suggestion is to always be able to give both sides of the "story" to help with the idea of neutrality. It needs to be a balanced article, therefore a balanced argument. As I understand it Wikipedia is supposed to be a version of an encyclopedia... my assumption is that we need to stick to facts, not ideas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Epsilonzeta (talk • contribs) 07:06, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Prominent Incidents - India is a Rape Culture - Prof UPENDRA BAXI - May 27, 2002, and other evidence 2011 Police chief views on clothing - Systemic Bias?
Prof Upendra Baxi has stated that India is a Rape Culture and claimed that he was obliged to do this as an Indian citizen and acting under Constitution of India/Part IVA Article 51A - It's one hell of a citation.

Indian academic and law proffesor Upendra Baxi speaking out concerning the 2002 Gujarat violence has labelled India and the Indian Government as "Rape Culture", and articulated the ways in which "Rape Culture" was made and still is made manifest in India through political complicity on a regional state level and national government level.

Baxi presents a withering legal critique of The Systemic failures of the Indian Government and institutions at all levels - and shows in minute detail how they all systemically empower "Rape Culture. It amazing to see a legal brain at work, justifying every word.

‘rape culture’, which: "Signifies ways of doing party politics and managing governance in which brutal collective assaults on women remain enclosed in contrived orders of impunity. In an operative ‘rape culture’ then the women’s right to be and remain human depend not on the normative necessity of law or constitution but on the sheer contingency of politics, law, and administration as well as of the ways of social protest and action."

In a ‘rape culture’, violence against women, a social disaster, is euphemistically termed as ‘unfortunate’, just like natural catastrophes, and not ‘unjust’.

"Description of politics as constituting rape culture is indeed wounding. It triggers accusations of collective libel of the ruling formations. I remain aware that decent women and men in Indian political and social life will visit this phrase with polemical distortion. Indeed, I expect an eminent consensus among them proclaiming such a description as treasonously anti-national, tarnishing the fair name of Bharat that is now India. But I have no choice as a citizen save to act in fulfilment of my fundamental duties under Part IV-A of the Constitution and to appeal to co-citizens to do so." http://www.sacw.net/Gujarat2002/2ndGujaratCatastrophe.pdf

Baxi says in his work "THE (IM)POSSIBILITY OF CONSTITUTIONAL JUSTICE Seismographic Notes on Indian Constitutionalism"

The ‘strong’ state makes itself possible by lawless and unconstitutional exertions and endeavours. It fosters practices of national integration that remain deeply and pervasively human rights violative; it emerges for the minorities as an ‘institutionalized riot system’; it remains a - ‘state in search of a nation’ and embodies a resilient rape culture."

In India, rape is still regarded as a crime against the state and not the person. ‘outraging of modesty of a woman’ (Sec. 354), though there has been reform of rape laws in 2010 which place the location of crime as the vagina - provided a penis is used. Marital rape and other forms of rape such as sodomy are not recognised. This allows deliberate failure by state agents such as police, prosecutors and even the legislatures to ignore Rape and the victim out of political convenience - enshrining "rape culture" at all levels of society. Cultural/Religious Bias is allowed to victimise the victim.

He clearly articulates how the operation of the Indian State empowers Rape Culture and allows it to operate systemically across all of Indian society.

There were extensive reports from Gujarat (2002 to the present) of not just rape but rape murder with the victims being set on fire to destroy evidence.

In "The violence of normal times: essays on women's lived realities" he addresses the deliberate withdrawal of law by the state government of Gujarat to allow Rape to be used as a terror tactic against Moslem Women - and the Moslem minority of Gujarat.

Page 32 he refers to "...the Institutionalisation of rape culture to spread terror...". http://books.google.co.uk/books?&id=w4PaAAAAMAAJ&q=%22rape+culture%22#search_anchor

There is also significant criticism of the National Indian Government which failed to remove the Gujarat state legislature as required by law to protect citizens.

Baxi is also most critical of legislative failures to address such matters as the Porn industry which distributed home video footage of sexual assault for commercial gain, via what is referred to as a "Grey Market".

The mass institutional failure of the Indian Government at all levels is repeatedly referred to as Rape Culture - The excusing of the gross sexual violence and rape as a factor of Indian Life, the failures to follow the law and the use of events for Political Manoeuvring between factions whilst ignoring the human rights of the victims.

The events of 2002 have been likened to genocide, but as it was not a war the term is not used. The term Pogrom has also been applied, but as such events are not allowed under Indian law it cannot be called that. Regional Riot is the term preferred.

Investigations into the events have been seen as Institutionally biased. The Gujarat government did not have in place a "state women’s commission" and also failed to provide assistance to the Moslem Minority displaced by events. Calls for elections soon after the events were blocked as unconstitutional as they would prevent the displaced Moslem minority from taking part.

Contemporary coverage from BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1933521.stm

Asia times - http://www.atimes.com/ind-pak/DD19Df04.html

NY Times http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/02/world/more-than-200-die-in-3-days-of-riots-in-western-india.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/17/world/hard-line-hindus-plan-rally-defying-indian-government-s-ban.html#

Violence, History and the State: Gujarat 2002 - Report of a Meeting organised by the Common Security Forum - 6th August, 2002, King’s College, Cambridge - Ananya Jahanara Kabir www.histecon.magd.cam.ac.uk/events/gujarat_discussion.pdf

"The participants agreed that the most striking aspect of Gujarat 2002 has been the State’s self-professed inability to intervene in the violence."

"As Shani’s paper demonstrated through its detailed description of the violence in the city of Ahmedabad (to which she had been witness), Gujarat 2002 represented not a real breakdown of law and order, but the State’s willed withdrawal of its responsibility towards the security of its citizens. Complicit in this calculated lawlessness was the police force, .."

Repeated investigation by International Observers as to the events and outcomes have been most worrying.

Threatened Existence: A Feminist Analysis of the Genocide in Gujarat Report by the International Initiative for Justice (IIJ) December 2003 http://www.onlinevolunteers.org/gujarat/reports/iijg/2003/fullreport.pdf

The report articulates how the systematic use of rape and sexual violence specifically against Moslem Women utilised their cultural norms and religious beliefs against them. Married women who had been raped were unable to speak out, unmarried women the same - family members were unable to seek justice due to the "Culture of Shame" linked to Sharia Law and rape.

The Indian Government, fully aware of how religious/cultural differences affect the perceptions and out comes of rape failed to act and made themselves complicit in the atrocities.

During the events and during post event investigation Community leaders, NGO activists and journalists where threatened with rape in an attempt to stop them carrying out investigations and seeking to support victims and for Evidence to be gathered for presentation to the Justice System.

The issues of "Honor Violence against Women during the 2002 Gujarat Conflict" are articulated and minutely referenced in the 2008 Thesis of Archana Agarwal: CRIMES OF HONOR: AN INTERNATIONAL HUMAN RIGHTS PERSPECTIVE ON VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN SOUTH ASIA. http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/assetserver/controller/view/usctheses-m1868/etd-Agarwal-2534

The Gujarat Pogrom of 2002 - Published on: Mar 26, 2004 Paul R. Brass is professor emeritus of political science at the University of Washington. Social Science Research Council - http://conconflicts.ssrc.org/archives/gujarat/brass/

Brass says "It is important to note further that the Gujarat pogrom transgressed beyond the boundaries of ordinary riots, pogroms, and massacres into the “zone of genocide.” In particular, the use of sexual molestation, rape, and murder of women, as well as children, including the reported case of cutting open a pregnant woman’s belly and killing the foetus, deserves note."

More recently 2011 - there was controversy when Andhra Pradesh Director-General of Police V Dinesh Reddy advised that Skimpy dressing results in rapes - December 30, 2011 - Hindustan Times - Link - Link - Link

There was further anger when his position and views were supported by Government Minister, Minister of Women and Child Welfare in Karnataka, CC Patil.

Along political divides Union Home Minister P Chidambaram stated that people could dress as they like. This echoes Baxi's ststement that India is a Rape Culture and how Politics and Politicians empower and entrench Systemic rape Culture.

SlutWalk in Delhi is be called 'Besharmi Morcha' [Link] - it translates as 'Shameless Protest'. It addresses the cultural sensitivities of India where the word slut has cultural barriers that do not transcend language.

One aim of 'Besharmi Morcha' is law reform so that citizens have protection, rather than the state being the victim of rape.

http://english.doolnews.com/reforming-rape-13386.html Media-Hound 'D 3rd P^) (talk)  14:45, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Update References ISBN added - redundent ref corrected
1) add isbn for ref 9 - located via multiple sources.

2) remove redundant ref where 3 and 24 duplicate. Both reading:Steffes, Micah (January 2008). "The American Rape Culture". High Plains Reader. Retrieved 11 January 2012. - but showing as double citation. Ref named="Steffes" - Code copied from position 3 to 24 to remove error. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Media-hound- thethird (talk • contribs) 22:03, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Section on rape culture in India In Draft - WIP.
Since there has been a lack of comment and discussion on additional content on a country/cultural basis - Systemic Bias, I have started drafting a section on "India".

The draft can be viewed at User:Media-hound-_thethird/sandbox_india.

Please feed back on suggestions and comments here.

Should there be no comment, I will take that as agreement as to content and include it upon completion. As the heading "Prominent incidents and allegations of rape culture" is inappropriate and misleading should no other suggestions be forthcoming I will change it to "National examples of rape culture". This will allow for further rational expansion respecting WP:NPOV and the need to remove Systemic Bias. I will also re-order the list alphabetically. Media-Hound 'D 3rd P^) (talk)  21:46, 22 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The lack of discussion is because many users (including myself) find it very difficult to reply to walls of text. "National examples of rape culture" is a poor choice for two reasons. First, it assumes that everything is national - and not everything is. I just moved two sections - the dickwolves controversy and the Facebook groups - to the head of that section. The dickwolves controversy took place almost entirely online, while the Facebook groups controversy included both the US and the UK. Second, it makes a judgement call, effectively saying "these are absolutely, beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt, rape culture." And that's not a call we can make here. Rape culture includes a degree of subjectivity, and there are incidents that create debate over whether or not they're an example of rape culture. If the section title is absolute, it forces editors to make an (original research) judgment call over whether or not it will be considered rape culture. With the current title, the grounds for admission is clearly defined: an incident with prominent allegations of rape culture.


 * You're entirely correct about alphabetization. I just fixed that.


 * I've left a few preliminary comments on the India draft at User talk:Media-hound- thethird/sandbox india and I'll hopefully add more as it progresses. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 03:27, 23 May 2012 (UTC)


 * "the grounds for admission is clearly defined: an incident with prominent allegations of rape culture."?

Clearly defined where and by whom? I hope it's not OR getting in the way?

Does One "Allege" rape culture, or is it assessed against criteria and sources? WP:ALLEGED#Expressions_of_doubt


 * Consider Organizational culture.
 * Culture is the noun.
 * Organisational is the noun modifier.
 * If you remove organisational does culture remain?
 * If you remove the culture, is there anything to organise?
 * Which comes first the organisational issue or the culture?


 * Is rape culture to be treated as a mass noun or a countable noun?
 * Is rape to be treated as a noun modifier or not?
 * A beautiful park is beautiful, but a car park is not "car".
 * Does a rape culture remain a culture, if rape is taken out of the noun phrase?
 * Does the addition of rape make all cultures filled with rapists?
 * Is rape culture a "Term", "Concept", "Theory", or will it be called something else next week - and if so, defined how and by whom?
 * can everyone else kindly be given the definition?
 * Does one asses against "Culture" or the abstract and constantly shifting "Rape Culture" or does one asses "Rape Culture" against the culture it occurs within?
 * Which comes first - Concept or Noun Phrase?


 * When the basics are not clear and repeatedly shifting, it is hard to advance the subject.

Term Vs Concept -Again!

No wonder this page has been at start stage for so long! Clarity, and less of the shifting goal posts, would be of value.

Media-Hound 'D 3rd P^) (talk)  19:28, 23 May 2012 (UTC)