Talk:Rape during the Bosnian War/Archive 1

This is not a good article
While I don't deny that there were rapes in the Bosnian war, this is not a good article. A number of general and specific issues: I strongly suggest that the article either be improved or deleted. If it is to be improved and kept then it really needs to contain at least a number of additional information: Osli73 (talk) 13:15, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) WP:POV in that it only deals with rapes committed by Serb forces, not those committed by any other faction in the war
 * 2) WP:SOURCES in that it does not provide sources for the claim that there was a "mass rapes phenomenon" or that "Between 20,000 and 44,000 women were systematically raped by the Serb forces". In addition to the two sources in Serbocroatian, which are not sufficient in themselves, there is only the ICTY findings. However, these deal only with rapes in Foca, not in Bosnia as a whole and are therefore not appropriate sources for claims of systematic rape in Bosnia in general. It thus misrepresents this source. The other source is a fictional film (Grbavica, though based on a true story) and thus not an appropriate source at all.
 * take out the "mass" from the title as this is a value judgement
 * sources for the total number of rapes
 * sources for whether or not they were systematic or not, including those sources claiming they were not systematic as it is a contentious issue
 * information about rapes committed by all sides in the conflict


 * Where on earth does Osli73 get the notion that describing the mass raping of women as mass rape is a value judgement? Did he pull that out of a hat? Mass rape is mass rape. Was the journalist Andrew Osborn of The Guardian making a value judgement when he wrote the article "Mass rape ruled a war crime"? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/feb/23/warcrimes From the Guardian article: "Human rights groups estimate that tens of thousands of Muslim women and girls were systematically raped during the war. Many were deliberately impregnated so as to bear Serbian babies and advance the cause of ethnic cleansing." Was the editor Alexandra Stiglmayer of the book "Mass Rape: The War Against Women in Bosnia-Herzegovina" making a value judgement in the title or simply reporting what happened? It is common knowledge that the nationalist Serbs ran rape camps in more places than just Foca as a means of destroying Muslim cultue in Bosnia and Osli73 knows this. So why does he pretend that it was limited to Foca? Furthermore, Osli73 is perfectly aware that the article is about mass rape as a war crime not isolated cases of rape and he must be aware that nationalist Serbs are the only ones indicted or convicted of mass rape as a war crime, so why does he want to include isolated cases of rape by individuals? Perhaps to once again engage in the false refrain that all sides were equal? How predictable. And as with each reported case of crimes against humanity by nationalist Serbs, Osli73 wants to claim that there is profound legitimate doubt as to whether it happened or not. Again, a predictable move by Osli73. So when will Osli73 stop the obfuscation and start simply improving the article with the sources that he knows are available?


 * It is true that the article is very poorly written and needs improvement both in editing and citing sources. But it is also an entirely legitimate topic for wikipedia. Fairview360 (talk) 01:42, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Nationalist Serb mission is to create a state of moral relativism and confusion. That's why they are so desperate to "proove" their innocence.

http://www.freeserbia.net/Documents/Lobby.html --(GriffinSB) (talk) 13:56, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Number
From where is the 20,000-44,000 estimate taken? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 19:38, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I have seen call for discussion on PaxEquilibrium talk page so I have added source for number of rapes.

A better source for this article
I current source for this article, an ICTY judgement concerning rapes committed in and around the municipality of Foca, is not a good source if we are to have an article on rapes in the Bosnian war in general (and the movie Grbavica is not a source at all). Instead, I would suggest using two sections of the NIOD report, which deal with the rapes in Bosnia and their role in the war in a good and comprehensive way. Please read it and let me know what you thing. I would much rather we had a constructive work on this article instead of the all to usual and unfortunate confrontational mode (including personal attacks).Osli73 (talk) 14:07, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Part I, Chapter 9, 2. Rapes in Bosnia: a new theme in the media
 * Part I, Chapter 9, 3. ‘If oil is a reason to go to war, then these rapes certainly are’

Suggested text (sourced from NIOD report)
Please find below a suggested text (not complete article, lots is still missing) to largely replace the current text.


 * Introduction


 * A large number of women were raped during the Bosnian war (1992-1995). Several investigations have shown that these rapes were conducted in a systematic manner as part of the policy of ethnic cleansing. The most commonly cited number of women raped is 20,000. However, this figure is based on extrapolation of approximately 4,000 established cases of rape and has therefore been criticised as exaggerated. The rapes during the Bosnian war played an important role in mobilizing Western opinion for increased involvement in ending the conflict.


 * Although all sides - Bosnian Croats, Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Serbs - were responsible for rapes during the war, there is consensus that the Bosnian Serbs accounted for the large majority.


 * The first cases of rape in the Bosnian war became known in April 1992, with the arrival of women fleeing after the ethnic cleansing by the Serbs of Bijeljina. Rapes sometimes occurred as isolated incidents, for example when combatants entered homes or when a group of guards at camp forced women under their control to perform sexual acts. But rapes were also committed in public, as part of the process of ethnic cleansing, in which case they appeared to have the same objective as the executions of local elites: to force the other ethnic group to leave with the intention that it never dare return. Houses or hotels were also converted into brothels, at which women were held for extended periods and raped repeatedly. The best known of these would be the ‘rape centre’ at the Partisans’ sports hall in Foca. This was set up in May 1992, with some women being taken from it to private homes.


 * A UN investigation would eventually count 162 places in Bosnia where women were detained and raped. Of these, 88 were run by Bosnian Serbs, 17 by Bosnian Croats, eight by Bosnian Muslims and 14 jointly by Bosnian Croats and Muslims. In 35 cases, it was not known who was in charge.


 * Reports of systematic rapes began to appear from 25 September 1992 when Radio Bosnia accused the Bosnian Serbs of holding 10,000 Bosnian Muslim women at special camps in Bosnia where they were raped "in public" and then murdered. Three days later the Women’s Group Tresnjevka in Zagreb published a report about the rapes in collaboration with women’s organizations in Bosnia-Hercegovina. This emphasized their systematic character. The group wrote that, following the earlier discovery of "Nazi-style concentration camps", it was now aware of "rape/death camps". Their locations were given in the report. And they were said to be part of a "final solution". According to the group, its sources stated that more than 35,000 women and children were being held in such Serb-run "rape/death camps". American journalist Roy Gutman claimed that there was not a woman aged 15-25 left in Bosnia-Hercegovina who had not been raped. Croatian and Bosnian Muslim agencies put the figure at approximately 60,000 rapes.


 * Warburton mission


 * In December 1992 the European Council decided to send a mission headed by a former British diplomat at the United Nations, Dame Ann Warburton, to investigate the rapes of Bosnian Muslim women. The Warburton mission first consulted the main international humanitarian organizations in Geneva and then travelled on to Zagreb to conduct its investigations. All this took five days, 20-24 December 1992. During the final days of 1992, the mission stated in an interim report that there was a huge contrast between the extensive attention given to the rapes in the media and the lack of evidence for them provided by all relevant organizations, including the UNHCR and the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC). The mission itself never went any further than Zagreb. Nevertheless, it claimed that "on the basis of evidence available to it" there must have been many thousands of rapes. The most well-reasoned estimate presented to the Commission gave a figure of about 20,000. It had repeatedly heard about camps or small detention centres such as houses, restaurants and police stations at which rapes were said to be taking place, but their existence had not – yet – been confirmed. The mission also claimed that rape, or the threat of it, could not be regarded as a by-product of the war in Bosnia-Hercegovina but formed part of a Bosnian Serb tactic of demoralization and terror directed against the Bosnian Muslims in the interests of ethnic cleansing.


 * Notably, one member of the mission, Simone Veil, former President of the European Parliament, distanced herself from the figure of 20,000 rapes because it was based solely upon discussions with just four people.


 * The Warburton Mission released its final report on 29 January. The findings of the second mission had added little to those of the first. It stuck to the figure of 20,000 as the best estimate for the number of victims. This figure was now based upon an extrapolation of data about rapes in a number of ethnical-cleansed villages. The mission also assumed that the rapes had resulted in 1000 pregnancies, which usually resulted in a wish for abortion. And it maintained its opinion that the rapes were being committed in a recognizable pattern.


 * The Commission avoided using the word "systematic" in its report because it had been unable to establish whether the rapes actually were being ordered from above. Following earlier criticism of the interim report for its emphasis upon Bosnian Serb perpetrators, in its final report the Commission stated that rapes in Bosnia and Croatia were being committed by all sides – Croats, Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Serbs – but mostly frequently by Bosnian Serbs in their efforts to ethnically cleanse areas of Bosnia and Croatia.


 * Mazowiecki investigation


 * The debate as to whether or not the rapes were a matter of policy flared when, at almost exactly the same time, the conclusions of another investigation became known. This had been conducted in Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia-Hercegovina by four doctors on behalf of Tadeusz Mazowiecki, the Special Rapporteur of the UN Commission on Human Rights in the Former Yugoslavia. They came to the conclusion that whilst rapes may have taken place on large scale in Bosnia, exact numbers were impossible to establish and there was no way of telling whether there was a deliberate policy of rape.


 * Frits Kalshoven, Chairman of the UN Commission of Experts for the Violations of Humanitarian Law in the Former Yugoslavia, also expressed criticism of the Warburton Mission’s findings. It said that the figure quoted was based upon information from groups in Zagreb. "They have been able to convince the Commission that that is the correct number," said Kalshoven. "But I don’t call that verification."


 * Cherif Bassiouni


 * Cherif Bassiouni – who succeeded Kalshoven – eventually agreed with the Warburton Mission. In its interim report of October 1993, the Bassiouni Commission stated that the number of rapes must have been considerably lower than the 20,000 mentioned in the Warburton Report. But 18 months later, at a US congressional hearing, Bassiouni no longer described that 20,000 as "a figure picked from thin air". His Commission had investigated 1600 cases of rape. And those investigations had produced evidence of further cases, bringing the total to 4500. According to Bassiouni in 1995, it would be reasonable to multiply this number by four – bringing him close to the figure of 20,000. In a letter to the Security Council in May 1994 UN Secretary-General Boutros Boutros-Ghali underlined the conclusion of the Bassiouni Commission’s report "that rape and sexual assault… have been carried out by some of the parties so systematically that they strongly appear to be the product of a policy."


 * Human Rights Watch


 * Jeri Laber of the American human rights organization Helsinki Watch also described the figure of 20,000 as "exaggerated".


 * Serb reaction


 * On the Serb side, the response to figures of tens of thousands of rapes was also scornful and showed little compassion for the victims. The standard rebuttal was that such acts were impossible for troops confronted by a numerically superior enemy. In a typical reaction, General Ratko Mladic was quoted by an American reporter as saying, "We would all have to be supermen to do this. We would have to be sexual maniacs worthy of an entry in the Guinness Book of Records."

This is obviously not complete. More will have to be added (and this should be shortened). Comments are welcome.Osli73 (talk) 01:55, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * This is much better than the current article. I see a problem with: Although all sides - Bosnian Croats, Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Serbs - were responsible for rapes during the war, there is consensus that the Bosnian Serbs accounted for the large majority. AFAIK, no such consensus exists. Nikola (talk) 15:11, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

This article neutrality must be checked
Because not only Serbs commited Mass rape crimes in Bosnian war...You must add that all sides (also Croats and Bosniaks) commited this kind of war crime and article should start with this fact... Somebody wants always Serbs to be bad guys !

Well yea, they over-ran a UN refugee camp, killed 8000 boys and men in one city. Surrounded cities and bombed residential areas. Mass rape of women. What else do you want? 70.248.184.195 (talk) 05:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The language of this article is extremely pov and it's very porly sourced.--  Ευπάτωρ   Talk!! 16:19, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

This article should be improved, toned down or deleted. It cites no sources and uses subjective language. It also mentions no mass rapes being commited by the Croatian or Bosniak forces only Serbians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pete1900 (talk • contribs) 19:02, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

You are not telling the truth. I examined the sources. The article is based on WP:RS - ICTY sources. Historičar (talk) 09:28, 26 July 2008 (UTC)


 * ICTY - Dragoljub Kunarac judgment
 * ICTY - Jankovic verdict
 * ICTY - Krnojelac verdict

Historičar (talk) 09:31, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Why is there no mention of mass rapes being commited by Bosnian Muslims and Croats, just serbs? If you're going to write about just serbs commiting rapes then the article should be renamed "Mass rape in the Bosnian War by Bosnian Serbs". Because if the article is about mass rape during the Bosnian War in general, it should include all kinds and instances of rape from all sides not just from one area of BH and by one side.


 * The article is related to mass rape, which is related just to Serbs according to ICTY. Kruško Mortale (talk) 18:47, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Regarding your false statement that some Bosniaks were convicted of rape, I have to say that Zdravko Mucic is Croat, not Bosniak, Zejnil Delalic is found not guilty, and Esad Landzo is not convicted of rape. Kruško Mortale (talk) 18:53, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Hazim Delic was. and BTW just because some people were not convicted does not mean they did not do it. Fair enough on your "mass rape" explanation, however I still think there needs to be a sub-section on rapes commited by Bosnian Croats and Muslims because after all articles are supposed to be as accurate and objective as possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dfener91 (talk • contribs) 05:30, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

No, he is not convicted of mass rape as a crime against humanity. I repeat, this article is about mass rape. Read the title. Probably there were instances of rape as incidents related to Bosniaks and Croats, but according to ICTY archive, there is no example of mass rape as a strategy like Serbs used to do. Hazim Delic was found guilty on these charges - Trial Chambers Verdict:


 * Counts 1 and 2:   GUILTY of a Grave Breach of Geneva Convention IV (wilful killing) and a Violation of the Laws or Customs of War (murder).
 * Counts 3 and 4:   GUILYT of a Grave Breach of Geneva Convention IV (wilful killing) and a Violation of the Laws or Customs of War (murder).
 * Counts 18 and 19: GUILTY of a Grave Breach of Geneva Convention IV (torture) and a Violation of the Laws or Customs of War (torture).
 * Counts 21 and 22: GUILTY of a Grave Breach of Geneva Convention IV (torture) and a Violation of the Laws or Customs of War (torture).
 * Counts 42 and 43: GUILTY of a Grave Breach of Geneva Convention IV (inhuman treatment) and a Violation of the Laws or Customs of War (cruel treatment).
 * Counts 46 and 47: GUILTY of a Grave Breach of Geneva Convention IV (wilfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health) and a Violation of the Laws or Customs of War (cruel treatment).

And he is found not guilty on these charges:


 * Counts 5 and 6:  NOT GUILTY of a Grave Breach of the Geneva Conventions of 1949 (wilful killing) and a Violation of the Laws or Customs of War (murder).
 * Counts 11 and 12: NOT GUILTY of a Grave Breach of the Geneva Conventions of 1949 (wilful killing) and a Violation of the Laws or Customs of War (murder).
 * Counts 13 and 14: NOT GUILTY of a Grave Breach of the Geneva Conventions of 1949 (wilful killings) and a Violation of the Laws or Customs of War (murders)
 * Counts 15 and 16: NOT GUILTY of a Grave Breach of the Geneva Conventions of 1949 (torture) and a Violation of the Laws or Customs of War (torture).
 * Count 17:NOT GUILTY of a Violation of the Laws or Customs of War (cruel treatment).
 * Counts 24 and 25: NOT GUILTY of a Grave Breach of the Geneva Conventions of 1949 (torture) and a Violation of the Laws or Customs of War (torture).
 * Count 26:NOT GUILTY of a Violation of the Laws or Customs of War (cruel treatment).
 * Counts 27 and 28: NOT GUILTY of a Grave Breach of the Geneva Conventions of 1949 (torture) and a Violation of the Laws or Customs of War (torture).
 * Count 29:NOT GUILTY of a Violation of the Laws or Customs of War (cruel treatment).
 * Counts 33 and 34: NOT GUILTY of a Grave Breach of the Geneva Conventions of 1949 (torture) and a Violation of the Laws or Customs of War (torture).
 * Count 35:NOT GUILTY of a Violation of the Laws or Customs of War (cruel treatment).
 * Counts 38 and 39: NOT GUILTY of a Grave Breach of the Geneva Conventions of 1949 (wilfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health) and a Violation of the Laws or Customs of War (cruel treatment).
 * Counts 44 and 45: NOT GUILTY of a Grave Breach of the Geneva Conventions of 1949 (inhuman treatment) and a Violation of the Laws or Customs of War (cruel treatment).
 * Count 48:NOT GUILTY of a Grave Breach of Geneva Convention IV (unlawful confinement of civilians).

On the other hand if you want to write about examples of a rape related to a specific person you should write about that in related articles. If you want to write about Hazim Delic, feel free but based on WP:RS sources. This article is mainly related to mass rape and sexual enslavement in time of war as a first case in international law regarded as a crime against humanity.

Btw, Hazim Delic is sentenced to 18 years, not 20 as you wrote, because he had a second trial, with the final verdict. You should always check the final judgment not just the first trail sentence, because every ICTY trial has its extension in appeal, because it might happen that you haven't updated information. Kruško Mortale (talk) 17:13, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Kruško Mortale (talk) 17:02, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Consensus about sources
We are having consensus about sources for articles about Yugoslav Wars and this article is having great problem with that, because witness statements are not reliable sources! On talk page of Yugoslav Wars it is possible to see which sources are OK. If users are interested to see discussion about consensus then he must visit this talk page.

Can somebody please solve problems with sources (witness statements) in this article ?--Rjecina (talk) 01:32, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Individual stories do not belong here
If this article is about Rape in the Bosnian War, the stories of individuals should be sent separate pages. (The individual stories are also very badly written/translated and need a re-write) This article should be trimmed to less than a quarter of it's current length, as its focus on individual stories is not appropriate. DermottBanana (talk) 00:44, 27 November 2008 (UTC)DermottBanana


 * I agree. While these stories are heart-rending, we must remember that this is Wikipedia, not PBS or Nightline. Any quotes should be minimal in length and should be justified by revealing something that cannot be found in impersonal sources. Quoting entire personal stories is not the way to go on Wikipedia.--SohanDsouza (talk) 10:34, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes we are having agreement but they will not listen. We are needing administrator which will enforce wikipedia editorial style--Rjecina (talk) 22:52, 20 December 2008 (UTC)