Talk:Rapping/Archive 2

Metre
rap sucks...and that is exacly why i made this page EMINEM IS NOT THE BEST SELLING RAPPER IF I MAY ADD ITS STILL TUPAC yea

PROPAGANDA

I posted the following comments to the rapping peer review page. I'm not sure that I used peer review correctly and I'm reposting my comments here.

The external links section describes the BBC page as a wiki. Is this accurate?

The flow section has a link labelled "prosody", which points to a disambiguation page. I don't know which of the, presumably related, meanings of prosody is intended, but one of them is meter (poetry), which is linked from the next paragraph. If they both mean the same thing, only one of them needs to be a link, according to WP:MOS-L.

In the same section, it would be nice to expand the discussion of metre. The article mentions Run-DMC as employing trochaic pentameter, but I found a web disussion, which quotes Dana Gioia as using Run-DMC as an example of accentual metre (rather than accentual-syllabic metre, of which trochaic pentameter is an example):
 * Rap consciously exploits stress-meter's ability to stretch and contract in syllable count. In fact, playing the syllable count against the beat is the basic metrical technique of rap. Like jazz, rap extravagantly syncopates a flexible rhythm against a fixed metrical beat thereby turning a traditional English folk meter into something distinctly African-American. By hitting the metrical beat strongly while exploiting other elements of word music, rappers play interesting and elaborate games with the total rhythm of their lines. Here is a syncopated couplet from Run DMC:
 * He's the better of the best, best believe he's the baddest
 * Perfect timing when I'm climbing I'm the rhyming acrobatist
 * (14 and 16 syllables respectively)
 * If rap were a written form of poetry, its complex syncopation would frequently push the meter to a breaking point. A reader would not always know exactly where the strong stresses fell. See how difficult it is to discern the four strong stresses in the first Run DMC couplet quoted, simply from the printed text . . . . Anglo-Saxon poets understood the problem inherent in strong-stress verse. That is at least one reason why they added alliteration to reinforce the meter. In rap the meter is also enforced by what its performers call "the beat," usually a pre-recorded digitally sampled rhythm-track. Traditional prosody describes the rhythm of poetry as the meaningful counterpoint of speech pattern against a fixed abstract meter. That same principle of expressive counterpoint is quite literally what rap does and its audience hears and enjoys.
 * If rap were a written form of poetry, its complex syncopation would frequently push the meter to a breaking point. A reader would not always know exactly where the strong stresses fell. See how difficult it is to discern the four strong stresses in the first Run DMC couplet quoted, simply from the printed text . . . . Anglo-Saxon poets understood the problem inherent in strong-stress verse. That is at least one reason why they added alliteration to reinforce the meter. In rap the meter is also enforced by what its performers call "the beat," usually a pre-recorded digitally sampled rhythm-track. Traditional prosody describes the rhythm of poetry as the meaningful counterpoint of speech pattern against a fixed abstract meter. That same principle of expressive counterpoint is quite literally what rap does and its audience hears and enjoys.

I'd go ahead and edit, but I don't know how to tackle this. Tim Ivorson 2006-05-28


 * I'm not a music theorist, and I'm not sure there's a single music theorist on wikipedia who could properly exlplain that. But I think we'd do best just to make clear how varied and complex it is, perhaps even linking to that article in the external links.--Urthogie 18:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

todo list
Ok, it seems like it won't get featured. Here's our to-do list:
 * Lead needs a better definition of rapping.
 * Add a section dealing with cultural criticism, and the allegations that its contributed to a culture of crime. Have several viewpoints in this section.
 * Add more analysis to the identity section-- assess the claims of kanye west and others under a factual, scientific eye.
 * Replace subjective claims in the article(such as in the semantics section) with quotes.
 * Reference the newly added fact tags. (We have all the necessary sources to do this, I think, we just need to copy refs over to some sentances)
 * Explain the complexity of metre in the flow section.
 * Make the article clearer so that people who have no idea what rap is would learn as much as the next guy.
 * Add a section on song structure.

Go ahead and add to this list please, --Urthogie 13:18, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Lets start with basic elements. This article needs a solid definition of what rapping is. "rhythmic delivery of rhymes" doesnt really sound right to me, although I'm still thinking of a better way to say it. How do you guys feel about this? - Tutmosis 22:05, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Sure thing, a better lead is necessary. I'll add that to the beginning of the list.--Urthogie 08:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Did I write Rap?
I'm a very old guy -- 72 -- to "talk" about rap, but a few years ago a friend thought I had written some material that might be set to rap music.

I'd be grateful if someone who knows the subject (on some boring afternoon) would check my website to see if it has any relation to rap.

What the site does is to "translate" the sayings of Ben Franklin into rhyming sound bites.

My website is www.benandverse.com.

It has two sides -- one on Ben -- that's the one I'm curious about. (The other called "Phony Pearls of Fictitious Wisom" has some jingles, too, but I wouldn't bother with it.)

I expect my friend was dreaming, and, if that's so, I'm sorry to have wasted your time.

Sincerely,

John McCall User:64.12.117.9.  Λυδ α  cιτγ (TheJabberwock) 03:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Whether they're rap or not depends on how you deliver them. So I'd say your friend is right that they could be rap.  All depends on how you say em out loud.--Urthogie 08:07, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * They could be. The first, "Treaty whitlers / Little Hitlers," reminds me of the lines "Dirty Dozen, eighty of us, Shady brothers, ladies love us," from "Purple Pills." I suggest listening to Purple Pills, or a similar song, and imagining how your rhymes would sound if deliverd like that.  Λυδ α  cιτγ (TheJabberwock) 03:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Word choice and slang

 * Whereas some rappers would simply say,


 * I'm hot, who wanna get burned?
 * I'll fire one in your knot, and watch your whole fuckin head turn (Fat Joe, "John Blaze", Don Cartagena)


 * Other rappers go for a less literal and more visual or metaphorical approach to making a statement:


 * Once they caught us off guard, the Mac-10 was in the grass and
 * I ran like a cheetah with thoughts of an assassin (Nas, "N.Y. State of Mind", Illmatic)


 * Preference toward one or the other

I don't understand this part of PCP MC's edit. Is the "one" literal and the "other" non-literal (imagerary? imagerical?)? Both seem neither literal nor cryptic to me. Fat Joe's imagery is metaphor, but Nas's is simile. Could somebody clarify? Tim Ivorson 2006-06-22


 * I'll explain why I put it that way...Fat Joe's rhyme is not much of a simile, mostly he's saying "I'll shoot you in the head" and leaves little to figure out--no need to relate two things in your mind. Whereas when Nas says "I ran like a cheetah with thoughts of an assassin," it's not straight out saying "I ran fast so I could kill so-and-so"..the listener is left to relate "cheetah" with running speedily and "thoughts of an assassin" with thinking of killing someone. It's not very complex but it's still a choice of term usage. PCP MC 20:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

started a new section
Check it out-- cultural criticism. How should we expand it/approach it?--Urthogie 19:49, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

New Section
- cultural criticism

Both G.l.a.d. vs. Eminem and Bill O'Reily vs Ludacris could be used. Also NWA vs. FBI. Tipper Gore and the cencorship issue "Tipper Stickers" should also be included. I also know Oprah has issues with some of Rap. (I think primarily ludacris) --Robtl400 18:35, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Masculinity and Rap
I'd like to note that no one has analysed the gender dynamics of rap culture in this article. Rap is blatantly masculine with very few women rappers and very few themes that are not masculinist. I'm not an expert in rap, otherwise I'd contribute to the gender section on rap.

____ Exactly, you're obviously no expert. There have been many female rappers since the art was formed. There are "masculinist" themes as you say, but by no means are they the overwhelming majority.

Origins
According to this article, rapping, is ...Derived from African, and Jamaican roots.

Erm, is it? Who says? Just Jamaica - not the Carribean? What part of Africa? Are there other influences? Isn't the English language (a significant part of European culture) an influence?

I've requested citation for this, but a user has reverted this without reason. Can we please provide a source for this statement, and be a little more specific? This article is designated as needing work, and I think to move the article forward this isn't unreasonable. 86.133.72.40 20:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Read the article, it explains the roots and influences.--74.128.175.60 01:02, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

The English language? Are you crazy? There you people go again, trying to tie anything to a white man just because you like it. I dismiss that BS. I question the Jamaican influence on rapping. Doing light raps over a beat without rhythm does not equal rapping in the hip-hop sense. Kool Herc was a DJ, not a rapper. Someone must have decided to rap and in the way that made legit music and modern hip-hop.--71.235.81.39 15:00, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I think there should be somthing more on the beat poets other then just a brief mention under a section 10 years after their main era, it just seams to me that while they might not have influenced the creation of rap, they where reciting and improvising poetry to music, jazz, in the late 50s.

i think the linkages to west africa and the griots are very clear and widely accepted within the hip hop community. there have been interesting studies recently on how southern culture was influenced by scottish and irish culture (people of scottish and irish descent are the largest ethnic groups in the american south even today) and how southern culture in turn influenced black american culture. Tap dancing, for instance, combines irish reels and african rhythms, and the article on roots music also mentions the african-celtic fusion as being critical to american roots music. since hip hop, like virtually all american music, can be ultimately traced back to roots music and since the oldest rhyming poetry in the world is irish, one could make a strong case that there are obviously linkages between hip hop / rap and non-african forms of music. The fact that early hip hop music sampled german techno bands like kraftwerk relentlessly would be another obviously non-african influence. beat poetry is also huge, and gets mentioned all the time in interviews with people who were in the scene early on. hip hop is syncretic, it takes elements from everywhere and everything. acknowledging that isn't "tying it to the white man", it's recognizing that cultures are fluid and interact with and influence each other. - may 11, 2007


 * I made the following comment a year and a half ago, and I see it's been removed in the meantime. Not sure why someone was allowed to wipe out the whole previous discussion page, so I'm pasting it back: "'Rapping was a term in popular use in the 1960s and 1970s, used synonymously with both casual, open-ended conversational dialogues (often called 'rap sessions') and beat poetry. I wonder if, in fact, the initial use of the term by hip hop music artists reflected a recognition and extension of that previous common usage? --Markzero 12:03, 4 November 2005 (UTC)" Don't forget the interaction during this fluid time. --Markzero 09:05, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Language has nothing to do with "rapping" per se, it is a style and tradition, not a language, neither does it depend on one specific language. Also, I love the article, especially with the part dealing with origins. Too bad Rap music or mainstream rapping in general has totally went down the drain. It was a real art like 10 years ago. Don't get me wrong tho, it still is, just not in wid use and has been distorted.Taharqa 01:01, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Rap/Rapping
I searched for "Rap" and it has no article, so maybe it would be best to redirect it to here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bélancourt (talk • contribs) 17:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

It should direct to the article about hip-hop music. True heads (aficionados) find the R-word abhorrent. Peace.

Journal papers
A quick search on Google scholar brought up some journal papers that may be of some use to this article re: language and rhyme patterns (although probably a little OTT):
 * On Some Serious Next Millennium Rap Ishhh - "By examining the Hip Hop poetics on Pharoahe Monch’s album, Internal Affairs (1999), this article demonstrates the linguistic inventiveness and innovativeness of contemporary African American lyricists"
 * What's Beef: Discourse Practices of Battling in Hip Hop Language
 * "The Chain Remain the Same": Communicative Practices in the Hip Hop nationLaalaaa 01:29, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
 * These would be especially helpful to the flow and culture sections. props, --Urthogie 18:53, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

tupac or eminem
The article says Eminem sold more, but according to Guiness, it's Tupac. Am I missing something here?--Urthogie 02:27, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Since there's been no response on this point, I've updated it per Guiness. I'll source it when I have a chance.--Urthogie 04:12, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

"According to the Guinness World Records 2005, Eminem is the highest selling rapper of all time." - I just removed this from the article. Eminem has sold nowhere near the amount of records as Tupac who is easily the highest selling rapper of all time with over 80 million albums sold, any source will tell you so. I attribute this edit to increasing vandalism, there are a lot of Eminem fans on Wikipedia... just check out the Tupac article itself. ORBJ 06:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Updated to do list
I seriously think that, even though this article is getting bigger, it still has serious potential to become featured once the new content is brought up to par, and the old content is reviewed. Check it:


 * Replace subjective claims with quotes. It's much better, neutral, and more interesting.
 * Double check all references, clear up references section, and reference all uncited claims.
 * Make the article clear enough so that people who have no idea what rap is would learn as much as hip hop headz.
 * Add a section on its relation to hip hop production, for example song structure.
 * More images (fair use of course)
 * Make sure all the links are good, like we aren't linking to disambiguations, or the wrong use of the word, etc.
 * Needs more involving, exciting, dramatic, brilliant prose. Give it a real voice, people.
 * More sound files is always good.

Links to integrate content from

 * Authenticity Within Hip-Hop and Other Cultures Threatened with Assimilation
 * On Some Serious Next Millennium Rap Ishhh - "By examining the Hip Hop poetics on Pharoahe Monch’s album, Internal Affairs (1999), this article demonstrates the linguistic inventiveness and innovativeness of contemporary African American lyricists"
 * What's Beef: Discourse Practices of Battling in Hip Hop Language
 * "The Chain Remain the Same": Communicative Practices in the Hip Hop nation
 * African-American Jazz and Rap
 * A LANGUAGE IN TRANSITION: THE CREATION OF IDENTITY AND CULTURE IN THE POETICS OF HIP HOP

--Urthogie 04:19, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

=
==================================================================== 67.85.203.150 (talk) 20:55, 13 April 2008 (UTC) helper456
 * REMOVE "Memphis Jug Band" and photo as "an early blues group, whose lyrical content and rhythmic singing predated rapping."  This is clearly erroneous as there is no discography anywhere for this alleged group dating back to the time they allegedly existed in the 1920's and '30's.  Not even the photo appears authentic.

Fake Citation
Pardon me, but the citation offered to support the claim in the article that the Pope denounced rap points to a fake, humorous, PARODY of a Larry King transcript. It's written by Rob Long of the National Review, who's written other fake Larry King transcripts for them as well. If the Pope did indeed denounce rap it wasn't here. So I'd take that sentence out until some real, nonfictional evidence can be found. 128.95.69.133 18:54, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing this out. I'll remove it..it was added by some discrete vandal apparently.--Urthogie 21:34, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

GA review called for.
I've just brought this article to Good Article Review, primarily due to a lack of inline citations. --Lenin and McCarthy |  (Complain here) 16:36, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Delisted GA

 * The Good Article status of this article has been delisted per review by a vote of 6-0. The discussion can be viewed in archive here. Once necessary changes have been made, this article can be renominated for review.
 * Regards, Lara Love  T / C  07:18, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

"MC"
I noticed the article page for the abbreviation MC is a redirect to "rapping". Assuming that "MC" stands for Master of Ceremonies, wouldn't it have more meanings than "rapper"? I'm also wondering how this got to be used as a synonym, probably worth writing a small paragraph about. -- MiG 15:02, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed - the article uses "MC" a lot without defining it. 72.208.56.148 11:33, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Anyone? -- MiG (talk) 11:03, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if this is the right place to bring this up, but from my understanding, MC, is slang, or an abbreviation of the word Emcee. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Silvanov (talk • contribs) 05:52, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately 'emcee' is just a different way of spelling the abbreviation 'MC'. Try saying both out loud. -- MiG (talk) 11:03, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't have an etymology handy, but emcee was short for Master of Ceremonies before rap adopted the term. Merriam-Webster online dates the term to 1933. I couldn't tell you for certain (and can't source) that rap's use of MC comes from this, but this usage is consistent with the house/block party role of the 70s guys that went on to be create modern rap. / edg ☺ ☭ 12:40, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I've been searching the history of the page MC and I can't find any time, going back to early 2007, when it was a simple redirect to "rapping". It seems to have always covered the various MC topics -- Catholicism, comedy clubs, and hip-hop -- and was never just a redirect. --Rpresser 21:51, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Rap Redirect
Rap was redirected to hip hop music, though there never was a consensus reached on the ongoing discussion of that move. the main argument for redirect was generally that "many people will [mistakenly] type "rap" while looking for "hip hop music." While an argument could be made for that with Rap music, it seems a little more strained with Rap. As such, I have not redirected Rap music away from Hip hop music, but I have redirected rap back to Rapping. -  Ro   Bo   Tam   ice 14:54, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Rap structure
Aren't raps supposed to be 16 lines and choruses be 8 lines by default or something? The article should have a section on this --165.173.126.212 15:52, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

--No it shouldn't because that is completely false. 72.93.156.196 20:53, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

German Rap should be mentioned!
The "Regional Variations" section mentions the French, Greek etc hip hop scenes, and even relatively obscure ones, but a very major one, Germany, is left out. Germany has a huge hip-hop scene, and there's plenty of information already in wikipedia. It should definitely be included.

edit from french people :

"Outside of the United States the largest hip hop scene is in France, and artists such as MC Solaar and Les Nubians have even crossed over into the American market. As with early American hip hop, social and political issues figure strongly in much of French hip hop and the majority of performers come from the country's ethnic minorities, notably the Arab population."

False ! It's notably the African population.

Wrong link to Blondie's Rapture
In the "1980's" section Bondie's Rapture should link to Rapture (song). Instead it links to the page for "the" Rapture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.79.196.166 (talk) 03:53, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Done. Carl.bunderson (talk) 07:38, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

rap vocal style vs. hip hop
this article focuses mainly on rap as it relates to hip hop. i'd like to point out the influence that rap has had on other music. since the 80's people have been rapping to many styles of music. rock, punk, metal, jazz, and even country. rap's importance exdends far beyond the hip hop genre.74.138.203.148 04:28, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

other uses, like "get a bad rap", "take the rap"
You removed my link to wiktionary's rap article. OK, but what about people who visit rap and find no references to other uses, like "get a bad rap", "take the rap", etc. What are they to think? Maybe they are now obsolete? What do I know. Jidanni (talk) 11:35, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Overlinking
It would seem to me that there is some excessive linking in the article; for example, Run DMC is wikilinked three times, as is Kool Herc, and i count five for the Wu-Tang-Clan. In addition there are examples of two links together which lead to different places, as the fourth point here recommends against ~ American Blues in the second paragraph, for example. I don't mind changing this, but as it is well outside my usual interests, i don't want to risk offending anyone who feels protective of the subject. Cheers, Lindsay (talk) 21:40, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and removed some of the links; it may be picky, but it seems to me that prose actually flows better without too many links in it. Cheers, Lindsay (talk) 19:56, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Reference suggestion
For the Reference Section, I would like to submit an article that considers the sociological implications of Rap. This article was first published at The Spectator (London). Here's the link: http://www.artsandopinion.com/2005_v4_n3/lewis-16.htm Thanking you for the consideration, Artsandopinion (talk) 17:27, 14 January 2008 (UTC)Robert Lewis
 * Well, if it's a reference it makes sense that part of the article refer to it. Do you want to edit the article itself?  I don't find it a particularly compelling study, and on quick read it seems musically ill-informed about rap.  I don't see much reason to link it.  bikeable (talk) 20:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah -- I hadn't noticed the authorship. WP:COI and WP:EL would suggest that such a link would be inappropriate.  bikeable (talk) 20:32, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick response. You write that it's musically ill-informed. Since rap can mean many things to many people, it's a view that adds to the overall understanding and evolution of rap, don't you think?. Is there any way to incorporate that part of the article that bears on the wiki definition? Artsandopinion (talk) 13:55, 15 January 2008 (UTC)Robert Lewis

rap does not go back to africa
Many, many songs rhymed. And that's all rap is. Rhymes with a base baats. Seems like wikipedia is some springboard for racist/ethnocentrist fanatasies than reality. Funny this "west african" rooted tradition only popped up hundreds of years after 99.9% of all african americans were in the united stats. That's some damn fine collective memory.66.190.29.150 (talk) 08:58, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you have a specific suggestion? With all due respect, it just sounds like you're ranting, unless you propose a better wording. The Evil Spartan (talk) 09:16, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


 * ranting? this whole page is a bogus blackcentric rant that has essentially made up its own version of reality and no one at wikipedia gives a damn.66.190.29.150 (talk) 18:03, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

ghey rap
"Almost all popular rappers identify themselves as heterosexual. A dislike for homosexuals is prevalent in hip hop culture, as is the use of the word "faggot."[citation needed] Some heterosexual rappers, such as Kanye West, have spoken out against the homophobic themes which are common in rap music.[35]" This is largely bullshit, there is a huge gay underground hip hop culture. Crumple is one such artist on the rise... Someone ought to rectify this. --205.200.166.54 (talk) 08:12, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

rapping
Why is there not a criticism section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.78.102 (talk) 21:23, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

New School
Someone oughta mention New school hip hop somewhere in the 80s, I would but I don't know enough about it. M.nelson (talk) 19:34, 29 April 2008 (UTC)