Talk:Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh/Archive 1

NPOV
I just stumbled across this article about the RSS. There is not one point about the number of riots and rapes that the RSS has been Responsible for over the years. There is not even one link to any such page. I also happened to view the article about KKK before this. It is also a right wing organisation with a history that includes cases of intimidation etc. Why is it that i found that there was a NPOV in that aritcle and not in this. Everyone knows what happened in Gujrat 2002, why is it not there on wiki? Why do we have to get into what the Pope thinks of the organisation. (PS Im not a commie and i love my religion and no personal attacks pls)K ganju 06:40, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Where you have heard or seen riots and rapes done from RSS people. There can't be a single such example. Dont imagine and write something. [USER : Shashidhara KL ]

Hindus lifes are not valuable in india ?.

Do a simple search on google and see the report of the Human Rights Watch. Read the report. It contains more than enough evidence. Or maybe you should see the film Final Solution. You are right. There cant be a single such example. There are countless such examples. Dont imagine and write something.
 * Hi. A google search is not aReliable Source, and neither is a film made by a partisan communist.Rumpelstiltskin223 06:48, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi Rumpelstiltskin223, or shall I call you RSS spokesperson for wikipedia? What part of the Human Rights Watch report (an organisation that is dedicated to protecting the human rights of individuals) is unreliable, and what could their possible reasons for negative bias towards the RSS be? Think before you post. You give your RSS stance away far too easily by labelling anyone who doesnt agree with the RSS as a communist. The very same lame tactic used by the US in the 1960s. Please grow up.

Godhra

Hmm... To quote "In 2002, RSS-linked organizations massacred hundreds of Muslims after the Gohdra incident in which a section of a train carrying several Hindus burned down. 1. RSS-linked organizations only?

2. These people who were burned alive aren't normal people, the way I heard it. This one section was full of Sages, going on a pilgramige.

3. Where is this recent commision report? If their is some proof regarding it, I'll accept it.

First of all, an organisation that believes in killing, threatening, destroying, etc. should be called anti-national. Secondly, what reforms are we talking about?--states ruled by their political arm, the BJP, are actively promoting Sati and child marriages. Thirdly, just because Godse appeared to have left the RSS does not mean that no one from the group supported his actions--in fact, he was trained for the act by one of their leaders who we are now forced to believe was patriotic. Fourthly, what social work are they doing?--the leaders are only directly or indirectly filling their pockets. Last but not the least, I resent the implication that great people like Tilak, Aurobindo, and Bankimchandra approved of their work and their methods. Apart from all these specifics, this group only believes in getting people to do things their way by violent means--if you don't we will kill you or your kin. Is this social service? Swayamsevak to me means "self-service" and this the members are doing quite "generously".

"The Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) is a Hindu nationalist movement which launched India as a nuclear power. An adovocate of Nuclear weapons it bases itself on the principles of Hindutva. " 

I find the above opening lines to be highly misleading. There seems to be an obsessiveness on the part of the writer to portray RSS' nuclear leanings. This should be seen in the right context. India is encircled by China, a nuclear weapons state and a country which has declared war on India in the not so distant past, on the one hand. To the west, India has a rogue state, Pakistan a crony of China, as a neighbour whose nuclear ambitions have been aided by the latter, largely with the objective of encircling India. It is in this context that the RSS' pro-nuclear stance should be viewed. In fact, the then government's decision to conduct the Pokhran tests were supported by a majority of the people in the country.

RSS' pro-nuclear leanings could have been mentioned in later paragraphs NOT in the very first one as that conveys a wrong impression.

"The Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) is a Hindu nationalist movement which launched India as a nuclear power. An adovocate of Nuclear weapons it bases itself on the principles of Hindutva. "  if this is true then why would thay allow Avul Pakir Jainulabdeen Abdul Kalam (Dr. A.P.J. Abdul Kalam)to head the nuclear program as said in wikipedia itself link title"In July 1992, Kalam became a Scientific Advisor to India's Defence Minister. As the Principal Scientific Advisor to the Indian government, he held the rank of a Cabinet Minister. His work led to the successful Pokhran-II nuclear tests in 1998, which reiterated India's position as a nuclear weapon state. Kalam was also the Chairman, Ex-officio, of the Scientific Advisory Committee to the Cabinet (SAC-C) and piloted the "India Millennium Mission 2020"
 * Speaks of the talents of the scientist rather than the magnanimity of the Parivar TerryJ-Ho 21:01, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the use of terms in the article like "appeasement of muslims" fit the Wikipedia policy of a neutral point of view (NPOV). The Wikipedia entry on appeasement says: "Appeasement is a pejorative term for a strategic maneuver...that leads to acceptance of imposed conditions in preference to defending against aggressors. Since World War II, the term has generally negative connotations of weakness and cowardice". I think the word is inappropriate and inflammatory.Grant65 (Talk) 12:07, Aug 9, 2004 (UTC)


 * I agree that any reference to "appeasement of Muslims" needs to be careful about maintaining an NPOV. The reference in the first paragraph, in particular, seemed to state Gandhi's "appeasement" as a matter of fact. I enclosed the word in quotes to indicate that it's an opinion (admittedly shared by people other than Godse). rajneesh 03:38, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hi

I have amended the lines in my original text that caused offence after reading the first two messages. I agree we are talking about a facist organisation whose leaders admired Adolf Hitler. In order to be objective I have placed extracts from the BBC newscast and attributed it properly as way of permission

lind regarads Lalit Shastri

--Good stuff.

03:02, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)24.60.21.161 03:02, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think that this article does not view what the purpose of shaka is to sangh. I quoote the article as saying, "During a Shakha, the activities consist of yoga, games (including sometimes training in stick fighting), discussions on broad range of social topics, prayer to Bharat Mata and an educational session (bouddhik) given by a notable figure selected by the shakha coordinator." Why would they have the games and yoga? For a political organization, it would be weird for them to play tag, don't you think? And who founded this organization? What is it's inspiration? Is the organization all about stirring controversy and religious sentiment?


 * I will try to remove all your above mentioned conerns by adding more information. However, I would just to like to make one thing clear that the Sangh is NOT a Political Organization. You might consider BJP a political organization. If you really wannt know more than visit http://www.rss.org and read the Sangh's inspiration by yourself. 128.238.241.149 04:13, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

--check the mission statement on the RSS website - under 'Polity' It clearly references elections and the political process. Why would it do this if it was not political?

Hellow

I have rewritten this article with proper refrences and quotes from RSS leaders books etc.. and from Academia who have studied the RSS - I think anything you write on the RSS should be properly refrenced - The RSS has many ardent followers who trawl the Internet trying to insert their own political point of view. This is a encyclopedia and NOT a political pamplet. If one wishes to know what RSS members think of ther own organisitaion then they should go to the RSS organisation web site and a link is provided in the Article. AND PLAESE DO NOT CHANGE AND REVERT this article but be free to contribute only with properly refrenced material to present your point of view alongside that of various academics who have studied the RSS.

Lalit shastri

-excellent effort.


 * I wish you would read your comments over Mr. Shastri. If people want to know what other people "from Academia" think of RSS, then they can go their website to read it themselves, instead of providing unreferenced information about the RSS.

--this is called research, something I dont see you doing.

You are just quoting the second hand information.

--since its from a variety of sources, thats called an objective, unbiased viewpoint or NPOV.

Have you ever been to any RSS Shakha's, attended a single camp? If not then please shut up.

--Have you critiqued the RSS? ever? Then perhaps it is you who should do some research before insulting someone for their hard work.

Just like you wouldn't expect a Pakistani who has never been to India and his only knowledge of India contains the propoganda supplied by Media to edit the India page.

--baseless assumption and racist too.

Similarly, I wouldn't expect "Lalit Shastri" to edit this page or belive much of what he says.Sjain 06:15, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

--congratulations you made no points whatsoever and couldnt even address any of lalit's! well done.

I agree with sjain. I think people like Lalit Shastri should just shut up.

--very original.

He is too biased, probably on orders from the Communist politbureau. He should just restrict himself supporting the murders committed by his various marxist brothers and help them run their brothels in Digha and Sonargachi.

--so by your insane logic, either you're pro-RSS or a communist, murdering marxist pimp? I hope you realise that you are insulting 98.8 percent of India (the percentage that aren't RSS members) You really need to ask the RSS for your brain back at some point. The state of West Bengal has more deaths in police custody than any other state. These deaths are much more than the number of people killed in Kashmir during the height of terrorist violence.

-change the comparative timescales and you will realise this comment makes no sense.

What academics is he talking about? The ones on Marxist payroll? Why doesn't he just talk about the glowing references Stalin and the CPI made of Hitler before they had a war with Germany? Stalin killed many many more people than Hitler ever could have.

--People kill people, what is you point? stick to the topic: the RSS.

I agree as well. My own 2 paisas. This Shastri bugger is clearly a self-hating Hindu.

--clearly... where is you evidence - have you even met him? why dont you address his points instead of trying to categorise him?

He has no conception of the truth, only his demented liberal socialist dialectic. The last thing Wikipedia needs are more commie terrorist lovers.

--look in the mirror, you'll see who the real fanatic is.

66.68.106.192 08:15, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I just stumbled across this article about the RSS. There is not one point about the number of riots and rapes that the RSS has been Responsible for over the years. There is not even one link to any such page. I also happened to view the article about KKK before this. It is also a right wing organisation with a history that includes cases of intimidation etc. Why is it that i found that there was a NPOV in that aritcle and not in this. Everyone knows what happened in Gujrat 2002, why is it not there on wiki? Why do we have to get into what the Pope thinks of the organisation. (PS Im not a commie and i love my religion and no personal attacks pls)

The Dictatorship of the Revert Button is that the best the RSS can come up with
Now Industrialist joins the fray with the revert button - He has learned the word vandalism which he brandishes with the revert button acting as the supreme censor of the work of others - Please contribute to the page and use your brains however little to debate the argument and improve the page. If you don’t' like the article say so and a discussion can be started within the community - Your use of revert smacks of censorship

Lalit Shastri

Dear Industrialist

Nazi followed the same pattern REVERTING HISTORY to their own thought, so why do you want to wipe out the quotations of the leaders of the RSS just because you are uncomfortable with them. If you are an admirer of this organisation defend it with your little brains if you have any -

If you do not like anything in the article or if anything inaccurate has been said about it then point that out. Your founder wrote how he admired Hitler, the organisation holds mass uniformed rallies and parades, and it has been convicted in the Indian courts for inciting communal riots. Its founder Savakar was the co - accused in the murder of Mahatma Gandhi along with Nathuram Godse. LK Adavani and the RSS family was responsible for the pulling down of a mosque which left 2000 people dead. The riots in Gujarat with a huge loss of life was in part caused by members of this organisation the, The special mission from the Vatican accused this organisation for the murder of Christian missionaries and Hindu converts to Christianity.

Why do you desperately try and hide the above, Do a Google search on this organisation where you will find hundreds of pages from newspaper reports, academic commentators, eyewitness about this organisation.

You must remember history can never be hidden - You can rationalise and justify but you can never change what has happened. If you try to hide history using the revert button which wikipedia being a democratic organisation has given you. You simply insult the intelligence of other wikipedians who are democratic.

Just as you cannot distort history you can never distort the history of edits and discussions in wikipedia to do so will only expose you to ridicule as the community can see both sides of any revert war and make up their own mind

Lilit Shastri


 * Oh my god. Listen, this is an effort to create an Encyclopedia. Anyone who is interested in having an ideological battle, please get the hell out of here. This is not a turf war over history. This is not the place for you to spar. There are many other places you can do that. This is an Encyclopedia. Diatribes such as the above are totally inappropriate. Please learn to control your emotions, or go somewhere else. Whatever fault you find in someone else's text, you MUST approach it in the manner of a scholar attempting to present the truth, NOT in that of an ideologue attempting to advance his cause. Because THIS IS AN ENCYCLOPEDIA.


 * I'm done scolding. I hope you're done, too. Graft 07:33, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

81.1.X.X.X - Lalit Shastri

It is not right that you delete entire articles and replace them with entirely new ones. This means the contributions of all other wikipedians is simply discarded simply because you want to present your POV. Your articles are a POV, and contain ideological and politically motivated accusations. This is the reason for reverts. Wikipedians have contributed over time and simply deleting this and pasting your ideological POV is against NPOV. It is not a medium to express false accusations and insinuations to suit your political agenda. --The industrialist 11:56, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Lalit Shastri, why the hell are you so willing to believe what the Vatican says. You are saying that "The special mission from the Vatican accused this organization for the murder of Christian missionaries and Hindu converts to Christianity." What do you think Missionaries are there in India for? To help converted Christian get back to their Hindu way of life??? If you didn't know, Missionaries are there to convert Hindus to Christianity! Obviously, RSS would like to keep the status quo, and prevent people from becoming Christian. THIS means POPE/VATICAN and RSS are working at cross purposes. Therefore, VATICAN WOULDN't be a good source to get your information about RSS. In addition, you are willing to believe same people who have continuously tried to hide the molestation of little children by their own priests but not the people who have made self less contribution to the society.
 * "Its founder Savakar was the co - accused in the murder of Mahatma Gandhi along with Nathuram Godse." FYI, Savarkar was NOT the founder of RSS. Since when did only accusing a person makes him a criminal?? If I accuse of being a petaphile, does it make you one?
 * If the RSS is convicted in so called criminal courts in India. Then why is it allowed to continue working in the India?? Why hasn't the Congress Government banned the RSS permanently and arrested all of its leaders. Even when it did ban the organization, it never dared to arrest any of its leaders. Why? Despite overwhelming evidence against RSS, is it still a force to reckon in the Indian society. Why a political party supported by RSS occupies the significant space in the Political spectrum of India. Why despite desperate hue and cry by your so called "Historians", RSS is continuously growing.
 * My answer is that because RSS is not what you would like to believe. It is a social organization with the single minded gaol of creating a strong India. Its method of doing it is to create people with strong moral values and characters.
 * After reading your comments and seeing your behavior, I don't believe you are willing to listen to any of my comments or look at this issue objectively. Therefore I would rather not waste your time. I would suggest that you go to least go to one of the RSS Shakhas, and then tell me if whatever you say is true. You will find a Shakha where ever you live, they are now held in almost every continent and over 30 countries of the globe. --Sjain 06:17, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

A particularly virulent attack of doublethink
According to George Orwell ‘doublethink is the condition of having two contradictory beliefs opposed to each other and believing in thin simultaneously’ that is your problem Ramasray.

You preach peace and harmony while the organisation you believe in does just the opposite – That is characteristic of the RSS ordinary cadres, they try to be Everything for Everyman so end up in the ludicrous situation of holding diametrically opposite beliefs at any given time making buffoons of themselves.

But the truth about your organisation is more sinister and complex, Your leadership wicked, your organisational structure undemocratic, your policies divisive and based on the ideology of intolerance and hate.

Wikipedia contributors quoted many worthy tomes and references when this article was written (before the internet Shaka imposed the censorship of the revert button) everyone can see the previous articles in the history pages and compare versions. Just as the RSS fingerprints were everywhere in the murder of the Mahatma Ghandi. So I see Mr Ramasray your own fingerprints on the Wikipedia revert button for this article. You simply wish to cover up the RSS hidden agenda which can be found in the writings of your founder Golwalker and Hedge quotes from their books were deleted by yourself as these made you and your ilk uncomfortable. It only gives the game away old chap – How could your leaders  be followers of fascism  and the hoi ploy footmen of this organisation preach peace …. but Wikipedia readers can find out a lot by themselves by going to the history page.

Now to address your above points

RSS the world largest voluntary organisation (you absurdly quote as your authority the wikipedia entery you inserted into the article) We are discussing the RSS NOT  the Catholic Church or Islam – Another practice of the ignorant RSS member -  bring others in including Bush, the devil, Ku Klux Clan Bin Laden etc.. Anjuman Deenadar is an umbrella organisation of the RSS along with the monkey brigade or do you call it the Bajrang Dal, Your Bajrang dal was also convicted for throwing a few untouchable castes into their burning huts in Andhra Pardesh.

I love Indians all of them including by the way, Muslims, Sikhs, Jains Buddists, Rich or Poor, LowCaste or High but DO understand I love my religion Hinduism too - That is why I hate to see it distorted and disfigured, presented in a grotesque and macarbe manner as the RSS interprets its -  I do not want my Hinduism to be hijacked by the ignorant.

Finally to end on a friendly note – I did like the quaint old fashioned phrase you used for shitting “Natures Call” well kindly desist from doing natures call all over the RSS pages.

Lalit Shastri Chatervedi

Mr.ChatErvedi, Good to know that you love your Hinduism. Love it more intensly. Not that i cannot respond to your points; i better spend my spare time in contributing articles to wikipedia. All your assumptions about my affiliation, so called my editings, age etc. are all in your mind. Ramashray 08:41, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)Ramashray

or reverting the good works of others

lalit


 * Answer my 1 question. If everything that you say is true, then why hasn't the current or 10 other previous governments of India has permanently banned the RSS movement, just like the Vajpayee's gov't was able to ban the terrorist organization known as SIMI or Student Islamic Movement of India. Why not?? Are you implying that even the opponents of RSS in the government, which includes even PM of India, believes that RSS is no threat to India. It seems to me taht even the hardest critique of RSS, with the resources to get utmost knowledge of inner working through Intelligence Bureau don't belive in a word that you just said. Another thing, Why do I hear bad comments about RSS from only the people who have never attended a Shakha, never heard or read a complete lecture by an RSS Pracharak???? Sjain 06:47, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Here's a an answer: An inherent quality of humanity is that it is ignorant. Why do you think that countries all over the world struggle with poor leaders, corrupt governments and warped ideologies? It's called being human. We all make mistakes, and sometimes we make them together. Other times we realise we've made a mistake, but our hardheadedness prevents us from admitting this to ourselves.

If we want to move forward, we must be frank, honest, intelligent and truthful about how we govern society - qualities which the RSS sorely lack.

Few things to be noted
BJP is not a political wing of Sangh. It is labelled so by the rival parties to grab publicity among the non-hindu population. It is to be noted that Sangh has had considerable influence on the party as most partymen were brought up in RSS environment. That shouldn't mean the party is a right wing of RSS.

Also, RSS is not a movement, but a "voluntary organization". And the explanation (somebody asked for this in a comment on this talk page, so here goes) for "yoga, games (including sometimes training in stick fighting)" during the RSS meetups are cultural part of the meet-ups and have nothing to do with poltics or whatsoever. (Games usually include Kabbadi and others).

The above claim is wrong.

Point 1 can be refuted from BJP's own website http://www.bjp.org/history/history.html

For point 2, you can read from RSS' website and make your own conclusion. http://www.rss.org/New_RSS/Mission_Vision/Why_RSS.jsp


 * If the RSS has nothing to do with politics, why does the mission and vision page talk here talk about voting systems and how the current political system is flawed?

http://www.rss.org/New_RSS/Mission_Vision/RSS_on_Polity.jsp states the following:

"For a Right Structure

Present system of elections defective-True representatives do not come up-Couple territorial with functional represntation-Make Panchayat election Unanimous-Socialism leads to Slavery-Theory of trusteeship-striking a balance between individual incentive and decentralisation of wealth-Hindu values, the backbone of success."

This is clearly a (poorly worded) political statement. Currently the wikipedia article is clearly not NPOV or accurate. Why not correct this and tell the truth? Flashback999 16:53, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Article POV
Lalitji's contributions aside, this article is highly POV in a pro-Sangh direction. I'm not confident of Lalit Shastri's ability to edit this article in anything resembling a neutral manner, but the rest of the folks here should at least be making some effort to remove the laudatory tone of the passage. A single "Criticism" section will not do. Also, a "History" section is notably lacking. Graft 16:16, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I also notice an interesting lack of information about the organization between, about, 1930 and 1950. All these RSS supporters seem to not want to include some things that happened during this time frame in the article. NPOV indeed. Mummer 12 Feb 2006


 * True. There are actually very recent stuff (i.e. violence against minority religious groups) that are not mentioned.  I think this article deserves a POV tag. --Basawala 18:52, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, the editors who keep removing negative RSS information need to be bold and brave enough to keep this article truthful. No organisation is infallable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Flashback999 (talk • contribs) 16:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

Some Enlightenment:
First things first, whoever this Lalit Shastri is, there is no need to respond to him. It would be like giving importance to some ignoramus idiot.

-NB: an ignoramus idiot with sources.

Haven't u heard of the saying "When the elephant is passing, the dog can only bark". People like him fall in the later category. Empty vessel makes more noise.

-you proved that point yourself adequately.

Also, some sections of the society think that RSS hates Muslims.

Nope, history has evidence to prove the RSS incites hatred against muslims.

Nothing can be farther from the truth. RSS condemns the Muslim bigots. Bigots who who impress upon the illiterate Muslims and turn them into religious fanatics.

If you closely study RSS's philosophy, u will come to know that it wants to work for the betterment of Indian Society. If u argue that it works only for Hindus, U should remember that, during Gujrat Eartquake of Jan. 2001, it was the first organisation to help the people irrespective of their religion. y

-the noble RSS also helped themselves fraudulently to £2million pounds of earthquake appeal money donated from the UK to fund the expansion of the RSS: http://www.stopfundinghate.org/resources/news/UK/030704PeoplesDemocracy.htm

Also, unfortunately, some people think that by attacking and condemning their own people, they will gain more popularity. These are frustrated people who having failed in other walks of life turn to such things to grab attention, but invariably become laughing stocks at some point of time. Let them do the barking.

you have no evidence for this.

RSS is doing a good job. That it is a Hindu Organisation does not mean it is undemocratic.

Madhur Vaidya, Advertising Professional, Mumbai.

I Have reverted to Lalit Shastris version which is closest to the actuality - My comment here is that this is a dangerous communal organisation which wants all of India's one hundred and fifty million muslims out of the country - They have orchestrated communal riots which have resulted in the deaths of thousands of poor muslims and hindus - Their cadre have infiltrated all levels of national and local government with the purpose of keeping muslims out - One of their chief ministers organised the mass murder of muslims in Gujrat State - This RSS Chief Minister was denied a visa by the USA for spreading religious hatred - During British times one of their founders Savakar was a police informer while in Prison in the Andaman islands (Kala pani) and a coward to boot- The top echelons of this organisation are all Brahmins - This organisations preaches that Brahimins are superior and when the low caste convert to christanity the RSS thugs have in the past murdered them. The policies of this organisation will alienate many indians in particular muslims and christians. Indian Muslims already are fed up of being treated as second class citizens, The RSS will be the cause of indian muslims to raise up in Armed struggle - Many tens of million muslim youth are unemployed and are waiting to be armed and taught bomb making- I fear like the Tiber the ganges will flow red with blood if the muslims of India rise up - The RSS and its policy of sowing hatred and - its policy of exclusion of minorites will be the cause.

These are ignorant people of the RSS led by Badmashes and Chalaks (cunning) leaders - They have a sister organisation called the Shiv Sena in Bombay - which is just as sectarian and ignorant

So folk what we need in India and Pakistan is Economic progress like China - all this HINDU MUSLIM CASTE - HINDUTVA ETC is BUllshit

Our country Pakistan also have plenty of ignoromus and awful people and our share of religious bigots

HINDU & MUSLIM BIGOTS CAUSED OUR COUNTRY TO BE DIVIDED IN 1947 - Ten million people died in the riots that followed.

Shafiq Ali Khan From Pakistan

Mr. Shafiq Ali Khan, I do appreciate you accepting the state of affairs in Pakistan. Before commenting on the state of Muslims in India, please take a look at your own country and the minorities. India is a secular country and no citizen of the country is a second class citizen whatever their religion. What is the state of Hindus in Pakistan? Before commetning on RSS please inform yourself about Lashkar-e-Toiba and Jaish-e-Mohammed. In addition, get your history right: India wasn't divided because of Hindu bigots, it was divided by Muslim bigots who wanted a separate motherland for Muslims. No Hindu ever wanted his motherland divided, that too on religious basis. You talk about Muslims rising in armed struggle against the RSS, that's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Please mind your own business. You need not worry about Muslims in India, the are safe here. Much safer than the Hindus are in your Islamic republic. And as far economic progress is concerned India is marching right ahead. It is you have to worry about progress with your leaders leading you into medieval period.


 * Applause.

I fully agree. I am ashamed of calling myself a hindu in india. --Anirudh777 10:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Then why don't you convert to Christianity or Islam?


 * self-hatred, a zeitgeist of love for muslims who want to kill us all.(Pusyamitra Sunga 18:38, 7 July 2006 (UTC))

No need of NPOV here
As the article deals with Positive and Negative aspects, Removing the NPOV is more better. I firmly believe these people don't know anything about sangh.Sangh didn't kill any muslims,it was the outburst of hindus after the killing of 58 hindu kar sewaks,gentlemen.Start from the zero,what was the real reason.Moreover in gujrarat riots 1400 muslims and 200 hindus were killed too.Now being caste system.Caste is nowhere prevalent in hindu system.Read the vedas and upanishads,it is based on karma not jati. And moreover it is varna not caste.The hindu society got degraded,not hindu scriptures.Its the fault of hindus.The sanatana dhrma is eternal,with monothism as the motto and prescribing polythic preaching so that every person can reach to god through any path. Learn about it first,now shastreejee,You have written against sangh,tell me which organsisation comes forward to help people in times of disastrers.Before the army and government it is the sangh who helps them voluntarily.Please go on the ground.The so called indian elite and westerners feel like rss is bad,it was created as a mindset by british and still are communist and muslims and yes pseudo secular historians follow the goras. Rss if you want to know go to any sangh shakha tell me once they say kill non hindus,they only say protect your people .when you are attacked you must defend,thats what they did in 2002. Now why are you always harping aboput hindus killing muslims.Take the 20 year ethnic cleansing by pakistna sis militants,the islamic jehadis of kashmiri pandits.Yous heart doesn't melt.5 lakhs are now living in deplorable conditions in jammu and delhi.Also what about bangladesh hindus are killed. read indian history and please the originals and bipan chandra and romila thapars,the left historians which don't want to comment on kgb even.You have right to hold on to your misbelief,but if you want to know the truth i would "RSS is a great organsiation",go and meet these people.I doubt you have ever met one. JAi hindu Jai sikh Jai bharat


 * I wonder if YOU'VE read the Upanishads. It's quite clear that the idea of caste is much more like "jati" than mere karma. There's many illustrative episodes: for example, despite phenomenal accomplishment, it takes Vishwamitra tens of thousands of years of meditation before he is (very reluctantly) granted the status of Brahmin in a single lifetime, merely because he was born as a Kshatriya. Similarly, Karna's accomplishment as a warrior merit him nothing but scorn, because he was a suta-putra (charioteer's son, i.e. a Sudra). The Upanishads are clear on the subject; I think it's an admirable sentiment to aspire to, but that isn't, in fact, what's written. Graft 05:15, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I wonder if you've read Indian History. Chhatrapati Shivaji Raje Bhonsle was born a Khatriya, but was granted the title of 'Vedonarayana', a Brahmin honirific, after his exclellent scholarship of Sanskrit was established. It did not take him 'ten thousand years' at all, but only his teenage years. There are ample case of lower castes being elevated to Brahmin status. Even Rabindranath Thakur (Tagore) is regarded by many pandits as a de-facto Brahmin, even though 'Thakur' is not a Brahmin clan at all. What about Shri Vamadeva Shastri (who was born David Frawley, a mlechcha, who has been declared a Hindu Brahmin, with his own lineage and patriarchy)?(Pusyamitra Sunga 22:48, 7 July 2006 (UTC))

I think this article does need to be NPOV...."The sangh is considered as the future movement of India and Indians",,who considers it to be the future of India??...the RSS themselves?..this sentence needs to be attributed to someone..otherwise its POV because the writer is voicing his own opinion. (Saurabhb 12:23, 3 January 2006 (UTC))

Nazi salute!?
the salute that RSS sewaks use is NOT the nazi salute...the hand is not raised upwards, it is brought to the sides...to suggest that it is the nazi salute is thus POV...I shall revert to the earlier edit if its ok..crook2 plz discuss your edit here before changing the contents of the article. (Saurabhb 11:08, 4 January 2006 (UTC))

Good Job
The article is unbiased and presents the facts. I think it is an awesome job. Lets appreciate it and not try to insert our own POVs in that.

RSS Dwaj Pranam is NOT Nazi Salute

Actual Nazi Salute


 * Also this actual deutsher-Grub

Notice the mullahs up front? (Pusyamitra Sunga 22:30, 7 July 2006 (UTC))

salute title modified again
Someone with the IP number 71.132.5.24 modified the title of the dwaj Pranam to 'nazi salute' ...I must reiterate that wiki articles must conform to NPOV...would the person using the IP number please get a username. the dwaj pranam is NOT a Nazi Salute...however much you are against the RSS (as am I) plz stop using wiki to push your own POV (Saurabhb 20:17, 18 January 2006 (UTC))

could we have a single critical voice in this article?
i'm not an expert on india, but i do know that this group is widely considered to be fascistic and far-right. i came here looking for an insightful take on it, and instead this article reads like a promotional brochure. if you don't agree with RSS's critics, fine, but you HAVE TO INCLUDE THEIR VIEWS IN THE ARTICLE. it's absurd and shameful that one of the most controversial organizations in the world doesn't have a single critical word in its wikipedia page. 167.206.188.3 19:14, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree, this article needs to describe the RSS in relation to modern Indian politics.At the moment its more of a description rather than an encylopedic article.(Saurabhb 12:11, 20 February 2006 (UTC))

Merge?
There has been a merge tag on RSS survey for a long time. Could someone who knows the subject either make the merge, or remove the tags if the merge is suitable. Kcordina Talk 12:05, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

RSS VHP BJP were created by BRAHMIN MAFIA to see that only brahmins rule india and only upper castes become wealthy, educated & progressive
--Anirudh777 07:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't want to edit talk page, letz disucss abt ur charges against hindu organizations.?what is ur sources?may be ur just a hindu hater?AumprakashReddy 23:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yep, you got his number all right. A classic self-hating Hindu. Muslims find loyal allies in self-hating Hindus. We have a million Hindu Noam Chomsky's (Pusyamitra Sunga 22:32, 7 July 2006 (UTC))


 * Please write in full words on Wikipedia. This is not MySpace. Graft 03:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * why not just delete this rant?

Ban
RSS was actully banned thrice.. In February of 1948 after Gandhi's assasination, the RSS was declared an unlawful organization and this ban continued over a year this article talks about guruji visting Nehru and Patel regarding the ban. there is no mention of this ban in article..?? --Sartaj beary 00:19, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Nehru referred to RSS as an Indian face of Fascism
My edit was unceremoniously removed without citing any reasons.TerryJ-Ho 15:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Because I read the financial times paper and it never said that anyways, and also the article merely said that Sewa Bharti was an org. affiliated to the RSS, and that Hindus were "funding hate" (like Missions and Mullahs don't do the same).Bakaman Bakatalk 15:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * If you read it then refresh the following FT.com and its full version :

A year ago India was scarred by some of the worst sectarian violence since partition, when up to 2,000 Muslims were killed in pogroms in the western state of Gujarat, ostensibly sparked by an arson attack by Muslims on a train that killed 59 Hindu activists. Human rights organisations in India, the US and Europe implicated two organisations in the well-orchestrated attacks, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP or World Hindu Council) and its youth offshoot, the Bajrang Dal (devotees of the monkey-god Hanuman).

Now a Financial Times investigation has established that these groups receive extensive funding from Indians abroad, collected mainly as tax-free charity donations to front organisations in the US and the UK. This fundraising is coming under increasing scrutiny. So it should - as should the links between these groups and India's ruling Bharatiya Janata party (BJP).

'''Behind the VHP and the Bajrang Dal stands a quasi-paramilitary body, the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS or Association of National Volunteers), which is the mother organisation of the Hindu revivalist BJP. Described by Jawaharlal Nehru, India's first prime minister, as "an Indian version of fascism", the RSS is at the centre of a protean network of front organisations. This structure facilitates arm's-length money-raising. It also makes it easier for the RSS to deny it is inciting agitation against Muslims and Christians.'''....................................The RSS spends heavily on welfare and religious schools, but so do Islamist groups in the Muslim world - a danger the world has woken up to. Such ostensibly charitable activities are one reason for the groups' success. They also help pull in donations from people unaware of how some of their money is used.

The UK is formally investigating two RSS fundraising affiliates, and is considering an inquiry into the VHP. The US has also started carefully scrutinising RSS front organisations. That probe should go ahead unimpeded by Washington's ambition to develop a strategic alliance with India as a counterbalance to China's weight in Asia.

Also Read Financial Times Article Full ArticleTerryJ-Ho 04:11, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmmmm. a very interesting article. However, I must point out two important points:
 * We do not know that the awaaz article is an archive of the ft article. Awaaz is clearly an anti-Hindu site that propagates hate against Hindus. it says that they "want to stop religious hatred" but they obsessively talk about Hindus, and mentioning hatred in muslim communities only as an afterthought. Of course, FT is a good source and if we assume good faith, then awaaz is an archive of FT. Since wikipedia relies on verifiability, there should be proof that the FT article is correctly and properly archived on awaaz.This is a minor point. Even if no proof can be supplied, the reference should be provided with qualification.
 * If Chacha Nehru did say that RSS is fascist, then surely there is better evidence than some obscure article somewhere. There must be a proper source that says so, like a reputable news source without third party archives in dubious websites.Hkelkar 06:43, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

My responses below were removed by Hkelkar even though this tab exists just above the one mentioning that no modifications on the talk page should be done:I am mentioning them again with a warning that I will approach an admin for severe action against users who do these acts flagrantly:
 * That comment somehow reminds me of Neta..exact wordings at that..anyways till I find that out..should I ask you to note that there is a fifteen day trial offer on FT.If in doubt, please do yourself the favour of signing up for that offer and by all means FT and Awaaz are both reliable sources zillion of times better than your partners weasel edits on Gujarat violence article using FISI USA-where the supposed URL on the actual news is a dead link:


 * "However, The National Commission for Women has accused organisations and the media of needlessly exaggerating the plight of women victims of the riotsWomen's groups decry NCW stand.TerryJ-Ho 08:47, 27 August 2006 (UTC)"


 * I believe that this is a personal attack.Hkelkar 09:46, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Awaaz-qaida is a better source than the Pioneer? Bakaman Bakatalk 18:27, 27 August 2006 (UTC).
 * Unclear ideas that dont help in resolution TerryJ-Ho

RSS modelled after Fascist Academy of Physical Education
+Is this correct? "The BJP is the successor organization of the Janasangh, a party founded in 1950 by members of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) or Association of National Volunteers, a proto-fascist Hindu nationalist, paramilitary-type (khaki shorts/white shirts) organization founded in 1925 and modeled after Mussolini/Hitler/Franco black/brown/blue-shirt outfits. (RSS co-founder B S Moonje met Mussolini in Rome in 1931 and subsequently structured the RSS on the lines of the Fascist Academy of Physical Education." AsiatimesTerryJ-Ho 09:43, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * So according to the article, the sole criteris for being a "fascist" is the kind of clothes that they wear (khaki shorts/white shirts)? That way every policeman in Orissa is a fascist. How funny. No,no. Hardly a credible article in my opinion.Hkelkar 09:58, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Please read the article again - it mentions on the lines of ...type of organisations.The association with Fascism occurs first in the statement and then the description of the type of organisations.Wearing of Khaki Chaddi Baniyan is not the only measure of the Fascism while meeting the Fascist leader and modelling ones own organisation in India is surely a measureTerryJ-Ho
 * And still The Hindu writes "Several luminaries of both the RSS and the All India Hindu Mahasabha were inspired directly by European fascism (B.S. Munje went so far as to seek, and receive, audience with Mussolini), while they breezily spoke of a Hindu 'race' and happily suggested a German -style 'solution' to the 'Muslim problem'"
 * It establishes certain actions of RSS in the past, but cannot be used as a legitimate criticism. I believe you are using words and associations to declare them as fascist."Guilty by association" is a biased POV. By this argument, I can say that Neville Chamberlain was a fascist because he also praised Hitler and Third Reich and routinely had dealings with him. Bear in mind that the article already has sourced evidence estalishing that they are NOT fascist in ideology.Hkelkar 09:58, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * There is a difference between praising someone and following someone's footsteps and gaining inspiration from them.The previous could be a political compulsion.Chamberlain did not come back to found a local English version of the Fascist Academy while Munje did.TerryJ-Ho
 * >>It establishes certain actions of RSS in the past, but cannot be used as a legitimate criticism.
 * >> If it establishes certain actions of RSS in past - you admit to its inspiration from Fascist ideologies.If it is true why is it not legitimate criticism.Give reasons?TerryJ-Ho 16:10, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The very claim that RSS is fascist is a POV statement unless it is qualified as a claim, since there are ample arguments to refute their alleged "fascism". Thus, you are gaming the argument by a circular logic. You have assumed the very thing you are trying to establish and that won;t work. It is like saying A->B because A->B. Munje went abroad, then founded an org in India. Association does not prove ideology.Hkelkar 20:31, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Since there are ample arguments to refute their alleged "fascism".What are those? TerryJ-Ho 21:16, 27 August 2006 (UTC) btw Netaji, I like your ways of moving between abstract and concrete and from the broad to specific when it suits.They seem to be teaching that a lot in Austin TerryJ-Ho
 * I'm afraid I'm going to have to report you if you continue making insinuations like I am Netaji.Hkelkar 21:23, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Check the article itself. There is this reference there:http://world.christianpost.com/article/20031219/1016.htm

Excerpt:

"The conclusion drawn by Fr. Kundukulam is that RSS cannot be considered as a nationalist organisation in the sense in which the term 'nationalism' is generally interpreted in India. Nationalism represents the collective consciousness of the people transcending all barriers of caste, religion, etc. A nationalist is one who is primarily indebted to the nation. Religion has no place in nationalism. In this sense, Fr. Kundukulam argues, RSS, whose primary loyalty is to the Hindus, can hardly be called a nationalist organisation. In his view, RSS is a multi-faceted organisation which is political, cultural, religious and voluntary in nature and approach.

Different facets gain upperhand at different times depending on social and political exigencies.

At the same time, Fr. Kundukulam argues against branding the RSS ideology as fascism, Nazism, fundamentalism and communalism. He said the terms fascism, Nazism, and fundamentalism are much abused terms in India. They have a distinct connotation in the European context that can hardly apply to the Indian milieu.

The term fundamentalism was first coined inthe context of the emergence of the Protestant movement in the Christian church in America in the twenties.

The ideology of the RSS and the way in which it is interpreted by the Sangh leaders borrowing modern terminology have no camparison to the sense in which the term fundamentalism was used in America. So also, fascism and Nazism do have distinct meanings in the socio-political contexts that prevailed in Italy and Germany which have no bearing in the Indian context."

Hkelkar 21:23, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Tony Blair rushed to Iraq war on one such thesis..Please when you write check the article itself specify which article ..I ended up reading my own cited article from "The Hindu" again and found no traces of this Jesuits work...Again this priest might not have the same approach a journalist or Political researcher has.If one was to believe him, RSS is not a Nationalist Organisation.Does RSS agree it is not nationalist? Secondly, I doubt Christianpost would be a reliable source in this context.Is that all the ample evidence that proves RSS is not based on Fascist ideology? TerryJ-Ho 23:36, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid attacking the source is the last resort of a losing argument. I have not attacked any sources, merely questioned them. I admit that generally Christianpost is partisan. Since a non-Hindu site has not attacked a hindu organization in this case, it bears mentioning. Plus, the article is written by a non-Christian. The thesis was submitted through Sorbonne University, Paris, France.Hkelkar 00:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Point of fact, I believe that RSS is now engaged in talks with the Christian church in India
 * http://www.hinduonnet.com/2001/10/16/stories/0416211n.htm
 * This should be added.
 * Oh, and here is an independent confirmation from Indian Express, a MORE REPUTABLE NEWS SOURCE:
 * http://www.expressindia.com/ie/daily/19980823/23550294.html Hkelkar 01:01, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Talks with Christian Church and a jesuits thesis are enough evidences that RSS does not have a fascist past and present?It still remains that RSS founders were inspired by Fascist ideas and methods of eliminating minorities.and btw my "attacking the sources " is another form of questioning them not unlike you.TerryJ-Ho 09:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You haven't established any logical arguments to support your attack on RSS other than association. There have been many groups that have had associations with Reich in the past (such as the Israeli Stern Gang etc.) that doesn;t mean they are fascist. Plus, please show me where in RSS's doctrine does it say they "plan to exterminate" anybody. If you engage in defamatory tactics such as this on wikipedia, it will be grounds for reporting.Hkelkar 11:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Do not continue to remove postings
Do not continue to remove or modify other people's postings as it violates WP:TPG.  Seicer  (talk) 12:30, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Last edit by Bhaisaab

 * The last edit by Bhaisaab was POV, so I reverted it.Netaji 19:47, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Please do not censore cited material and insert original research. BhaiSaab talk 19:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I reverted again. I believe Blnguyen said that Bhaisaab should mind his own business (Islam-related articles). As per Blnguyen's guidelines, stop inserting POV garbage into the article.Bakaman Bakatalk 19:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Again, do you own these articles? Blnguyen never said such a thing. BhaiSaab talk 19:59, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah I own them. I am master of all things India. LolBakaman Bakatalk 20:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * What if I'm Indian too? BhaiSaab talk 20:12, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The section now contains both weasel words and what seems to be original research, at the very least an uncited section that contradicts a cited section, particularly "It may be safely claimed that it was not the RSS who created the atmosphere that caused Gandhi's death." BhaiSaab talk 20:15, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I removed the statement.Bakaman Bakatalk 23:06, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * "Bhaisaab should mind his own business " - Bhaisaab is free to edit whatever he wants to. It would be harrassing to try to restrict anyone to one particular topic. And it seems to be a personal attack. So please be civil to each other.  Mar de Sin   Speak up!  20:15, 21 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Stop defining "personal attacks" without analyzing the situation. An admin requested that he refrain from bothering Hindu users. Bakaman Bakatalk 02:55, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh really? Where? BhaiSaab talk 03:09, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Anti-Semitism?
...in what way is an anti-semitic source? --Soman 08:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, they are left-wing anti-semites. They are part of the New Anti-Semitism movement that comes from the far left. The tone of the article is clearly that of an obsessive hatred for Israel (ie a cover for hatred for Jews) and so is anti-Semitic.Netaji 08:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * And that POV is substantiated by ...? --Soman 09:06, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Are you kidding? They say that they are Revolutionary Leftists. Sounds like Lenin's avatars. Insaf ghadar is a forum for CPIM mumbo jumbo.Bakaman Bakatalk 03:36, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * That site is anti-humanity poison.

Bakaman Bakatalk 03:38, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 'Revolutionary Left' = Anti-Semitism? --Soman 13:17, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The source isn't fit for wiki in the first place. It is a site where super-left-wing communist nutheads rant about the evils of democracy.Bakaman Bakatalk 14:43, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * ...says the person who uses the site christianaggression.org as a reference for wiki articles. --Soman 14:58, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I also placed satp on there. Also you may want to look at WP:CIVIL. Bakaman Bakatalk 15:10, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Irony is well within the limits of a civil discussion. 'nutheads', 'anti-humanity poison', etc. are words better to be avoided. --Soman 15:22, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Both Arabs and Jews are Semitic - and consequently the religions followed by them are Semitic.Who does the reference imply against TerryJ-Ho 22:53, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If you look at the wikipedia article anti-Semitism the term is used exclusively to denote hatred for Jews, not Arabs. Due to various historical reasons, the term refers to the Jewish people.Hkelkar 23:40, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * No Hkelkar, let Terry read the reference and find out for himself. Bakaman Bakatalk 23:57, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Off topic
Isn't "Position on Zionism" off topic? Ideally, it should be in Zionism or somewhere else. Babub→ Talk 15:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)


 * IMHO, it is important to mention the outright support of RSS to zionist movements. But you are free to remove it, if you consider it redundant. Moreover, the statement is supported by well cited sources, and the Parivars support to zionist movements has led to its criticism by anti-semetic organisations.nids 18:58, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Who calls it a "reactionary group of Hindu fanatics with Fascist tendencies" ?
The source, Far Eastern Survey, does not mention who describes it in such a way so I think "observers" would be more neutral than "critics." I will paste a quote from the source shortly. BhaiSaab talk 21:19, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
 * "The Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (National Voluntary Service Association) is a Hindu organization whose nature and acitivites have aroused considerable controversy in India. It has been characterized on the one hand as a reactionary group of Hindu fanatics with fascist tendencies; and on the other as a cultural organization dedicated to restoring and revitalizing the spiritual and moral traditions of India, which are being destroyed by contact with the alien West."

This is the introduction of the essay. BhaiSaab talk 21:25, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

requesting changes
Please remove the link to Rajendra singh in the main article as it points to some other person and not the ex-sanghsanchalak.nids(&#9794;) 01:29, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * where?Bakaman Bakatalk 04:45, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * In the section Sarsanghsanchalaks, there is a link to ex-Sarsanghsanchalak Rajendra Singh. The article to which this links is not the same Rajendra Singh whom we call rajju bhaiyya.nids(&#9794;) 05:28, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The article on Rajendra Singh is about some water conservationist.nids(&#9794;) 05:29, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Video on 70,000 service projects run by (RSS)
Please consider linking to the video http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1013666219441914390

Sangh Swayamsevaks are running nearly 70,000 service projects throughout Bharat. These service projects range from reconstructing villages in the Bhuj, Gujarat to boys hostel for Tribal Villagers in Tinsukia, Assam. From latest medical clinic, in Wayana, Banglore to adopting kids who have lost their parents to terrorism in Jammu & Kashmir. Very often these projects are hidden from the glare of news cameras and writers of major newspapers. Now, there is a video to showcase the RSS’s effort to once again take Bharat to Param Vaibhav (the pinnacle of glory). Please take a moment to see for yourself, the selfless hard work by lakhs of sangh swayamsevaks in every nook and corner of Bharat. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sjain (talk • contribs).


 * That is what the RSS is truly about. Not the kind of stuff the CPIM and SIMI say about it.Bakaman Bakatalk 16:00, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * RSS also fights and opposes the Caste System. This should be put up in the article:

www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1507163/posts

Hkelkar 00:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Excellent. We should include this in the article.--Milki 01:02, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Why must charity be linked with faith - is it not enough to care for someone without it being linked to religeon?

HSS
''The RSS is active throughout India and also abroad as the Hindu Swayamsevak Sangh, "Hindu Volunteers' Union". '' Is the HSS structurally connected with RSS? Because the page Hindu Swayamsevak Sangh says that the RSS was an "inspiration" and doesn't mention and any structural connection. Mar de Sin  Speak up!  20:23, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I've been to HSS with friends a bit. They dont really mention RSS much, they mostly do yoga and talk about the Gita. Its nowhere near as politicized as the RSS, and they dont talk about BJP/VHP? etc. Its more of a cultural org.Bakaman Bakatalk 00:30, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * There is no formal relationship between RSS and HSS. Both organizations are administratively and financially independent of each other. However, HSS does take inspiration from the RSS method's of organizing society such as Shakhas, and uses many of the RSS's ideas in its own organization. RSS leaders are often invited by HSS for speaking tours.Sjain 04:05, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Almost all HSS volunteers tow the RSS line and when in India they meet and take inspiration from RSS head honchos.--Darrendeng 06:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The HSS is a platform for spreading the RSS agenda to hindus/indians living outside India. It is cleverly crafted to deceive the general public and has infiltrated many universities in the UK. The Sewa international and HSS charities setup for earthquake relief, channeled money into the RSS.

Recently finished Conference in Brighton
This is how academia sees RSS and its activities -

Fascism, Physical Culture and Hindu Nationalism

The globalization of contemporary society in India has been marked by the resurgence of an extreme form of Hindu nationalism, known as Hindutva. A key organization in propagating Hindutva is the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), a male, uniformed, and voluntary organization committed to the creation of the Hindu Rashtra (state). The RSS provides ideological leadership for over 80 affiliate organisations, collectively known as the Sangh Parivar, constituting a vast national network of cultural, political, economic and religious organizations. The role of the RSS is to educate and train the cadre of committed Hindu patriots who will provide leadership of the affiliate organizations. This training takes place in the shakhas, local training camps which meet every day to mobilize lakhs of boys and men for physical and martial exercises, ideological training and patriotic prayers. The culturally specific form of physical programs of the RSS and their nationalist vision has it roots in the concept of ‘organicism’, and has clear antecedents in 19th century cultural nationalism and the fascist movements of the inter-war Europe. In this presentation, which will include original video footage of training in RSS shakhas, I will discuss some key aspects of the relationship between fascism, physical culture and the politics of Hindu nationalism. I will argue that the apotheosis of RSS intellectual and physical development is the physiological patriot, a Hindu homo-fascitus. As the RSS move from the periphery to the core of Indian culture and politics, the argument that it has a fascist ideology and methodology is both provocative and disturbing.

Sponsors: South Asia Institute and the Department of Sociology TerryJ-Ho 13:00, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * This is the same Ian McDonald who regards Kancha Ilaiah as a "prominent scholar"? lol. That's funny, that is. Hkelkar 11:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * No that's serious - a scholar of such repute says something serious TerryJ-Ho
 * That's like David Duke endorsing Joseph Goebbels. An obvious maxim.Hkelkar 11:04, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * You're free to think what you do..But don't impose them on Wikipedia as learned views.TerryJ-Ho
 * Here is an interesting article by Prof. Beloo Mehra showcasing the usual buls*t that comes from the older generation of reactionary "academics".

.This Mcdonald thing looks like another Mearsheimer and Walt hoax to me.Hkelkar 11:26, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Reactionaries calling the intellegensia as reactionary..What a...TerryJ-Ho
 * Well,South Asia Institute is from your own university..You could better influence them to have a change on their thinking of Hindutva TerryJ-Ho 14:09, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Per this reference, it looks like Academia is not nearly unanimous in it's opinions of RSS:

Smith, David James, Hinduism and Modernity P188, Blackwell Publishing

...despite the organizations [RSS's] past links with fascist ideologies, it's decentralized nature and lack of emphasis with a supreme leader, and the central position that it awards to social system (rather than race),means that describing them as "fascist" is inappropriate

Hkelkar 02:02, 18 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Fine, as part of a balancing act, I added both this little quote of yours AND the Smith quote in the criticism section.Happy? Hkelkar 02:06, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

"Riots and Genocide""
Whoever this User:Thiru kk is who has been adding this section to the article needs to learn WP:NPOV,WP:RS, WP:NOT. Wikipedia is not a forum for propaganda.Please keep a neutral narrative. A section on "Criticism" is already there so this one is redundant.Hkelkar 20:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Reply to:Hkelkar Who ever you are, wikipedia is an encyclopedia not the mouth piece of RSS. Hence when I added the hyperlink of the reference, why did you delete it? You then name it dubivious? You are not even allowing a critical view of sangh pariwar as exisits from different sources. An attempt to saffronise the wikiepedia too? User:Thiru_kk (thiru_kk)17 November 2006


 * A critical view already exists in the "criticism" section. Your edits violate wikipedia policy and, if you persist, you will be reported.Hkelkar 21:35, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not the mouthpeice of the CPM either.Hkelkar 21:35, 17 November 2006 (UTC)


 * What does "dubivious" mean? Is it some sort of portmanteau of "dubious" and "obvious"? Hkelkar 21:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Completely unsourced POV. Removed, and rightly removed.  Noble eagle  [TALK] [C] 23:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the Criticisms Section .....
Did the people who write this even read their sources ?

 Some Indians (especially its political opponents INC and CPI(M)) criticize the RSS for its "Hindu supremacist philosophy" and campaigns against other religions in India.

The source for this is RSS asking Hindus to get rid of Caste based differences.

In his book Fascism: Theory and Practice, Dave Renton mentions that in the 1990's RSS has used Communal riots as form of popular politics against the state and has adapted the fascist ideology to Indian conditions

'''I've just read this book and it claims since RSS has adopted only adapted "parts" of Fascist Ideology and is NOT a full fledged movement against the state and hence cannot be called Fascist. The statement made was seriously taken out of context.'''

''The RSS has also been alleged by Human Rights Watch for taking a part in violence against Muslims in the 2002 Gujarat conflict. Officially, 793 people, mostly Muslims, were killed in the conflicts, but Human Rights Watch claims an upwards death toll of 2500. ''

'''This source has one mention of RSS and it vaguely claims RSS was involved in the incident.

The McDonald Abstract doesn't talk much about the claims it's been sourced with.

The Google Cache and the original link are no longer available regarding the Christian Priest's Comments.'''

I will wait for input from others on what needs to be done.--Milki 15:41, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I found additional links regarding the priest's comments:Rumpelstiltskin223 22:24, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Concerning the Renton book, looks like whoever cited it was deliberately mis-representing the book so I corrected it by your suggestion. Please check it now. Rumpelstiltskin223 22:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, the criticisms section also contains rebuttals to those criticisms. Does anyone mind if I reorganise the allegations of Fascism (and their rebuttals) under a separate Heading ? --71.163.73.234 00:38, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

In regards to Gujarat violence, people pin the blame on the Sangh Parivar when one should really blame the organizations seperately. VHP fought after their pilgrims were burnt to death and BJP didn't do enough, but the RSS isn't mentioned much.  Noble eagle  [TALK] [C] 03:29, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well that is a valid point. However, I think the Gujarat riot allegations should be there because if it isn't, vandals and trolls will put it back with a lot of POV and bias. It is better to state it attributively and neurally that not state it at all. Anyways, that is my view. I just want to avoid revert-wars, which seem disturbingly common in this article. Rumpelstiltskin223 03:52, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Removed paragraph by Rajesh Tembarai Krishnamachari linking to his own article that does not cite any evidence for claims about decline of the left in india.

No header presented
A message to all pro-RSS editors here constantly removing references to accounts of atrocities, bans, prejudice and negative RSS actions in this article, the HSS article and all related articles on wikipedia:

You can waste your time on wikipedia all day long editing and fashioning the truth to your taste, however as much as you try, you cannot change actual historical events, the evidence for those events and the people affected by those events.

The RSS has 2 million members, India has a population of 1000 million: That makes the RSS a mighty 0.2% of the population: Conclusion: You are a minority.

If you really do believe in the RSS cause why not tell the truth? If you are honest to 99.8% of India, maybe they might actually listen to you!

Best wishes - I give this paragraph a lifetime on wikipedia of about 1 hour...


 * But then, the BJP won the elections in India in 1998, a majority of Indians supported the RSS's political wing.  — N o b l e e a g l e  [TALK]  [C] 00:41, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * So why aren't they members then? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.229.83.223 (talk) 10:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC).


 * You seem to be completely ignorant of politics. The Republican and Democratic Party of United States are undeniably the dominant parties in USA, however only half of their voters are "registered" and "members". RSS is a concentrated ideology while BJP is a major political party encompassing wide facets of people's lives. One doesn't have to be a member to believe in something. Even with using pure numbers, RSS is the world's largest volunteer organisation and largest non-communist organisation. --Vishnuchakra 01:43, 11 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Also there around 5 million members active alone. I imagine the actual count to be much larger.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/655722.stm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vishnuchakra (talk • contribs) 17:01, 12 May 2007 (UTC).

POV Tag?
POV Tags have been added to the BJP, RSS and Hindu Unity pages. I was wondering if someone could point out what part of this page is filled with POV, so that we can work on fixing it. Thanks Vishnuchakra 14:28, 13 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Well no one has pointed out anything so far. So am I to take this as having no objections in removing the tag? Vishnu  chakra  18:39, 14 June 2007 (UTC)