Talk:Rat/Archive 1

Better to use a professional breeder?
I'm sort of new to editing in Wikipedia, but that last line in the main section of the article, while I'm sure it's probably generally true, seems to be advice from a certain opinion and isn't backed up by anything. I'm editing out,. If I'm wrong to do so, please explain and feel free to revert.
 * You're right in doing so. Often rat breeders (breeders in general, actually) care little for their rats' health, breeding them instead for appearance. The same can also often be said of amateur rat breeders. In either case, you should know and trust the breeder you are buying from. In my opinion, pet shops should be avoided if possible. This past February, I bought two female rats from a local pet shop and it turned out that one of them had gotten pregnant at the shop (Gestation is about 21 days in rats and; litter was born about 14 days after purchase and other rat is without a doubt female). &mdash; NRen2k5 08:04, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Fear Factor?
Is the Fear Factor mention and picture really necessary? MOE37x3 00:22, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * The picture is disgusting and uninformative. One can also say that it promotes cruelty to animals. I think it should be removed. Also, isn't this image copyright protected? RK 01:20, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC)

I second that. The background in the picture of the black rat is way to dark and the second picture of the hurt, bleeding, battle-worn rat does not show these animals in their typical state.

update: I replaced the "rodent from hell" picture with a more neutral picture showing a healty and hopefully happier Rattus Norvegicus. In addition, the image (taken from the German article about rats) was already present in on wikipedia and has a less restrictive license. One more pro for the new picture is that the color of the animal is now far closer to the natural color of wild Rattus Norvegicus DON'T EAT RATS, THEY TASTE BAD!

Rats as Pets
I'm pretty sure this section is worthwhile, but it needs fleshing out.--Instant Classic 20:19, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Never mind. There's a whole other article for pet rats, which is clearly pointed out at the top of the article, and I need to keep my big mouth shut. Anyone looking for pet rat information will see the Fancy Rats link, so the subsection is unnecessary.

What the hell does the claim that rats have a sense of humor mean? 209.68.147.86 2 July 2005 20:57 (UTC)

I agree, it's bullshit and should be removed. Martin.


 * I'm sure when a mischief of rats gets together they have a damn good laugh at the cat crossing the raod jokes and the black rat, brown rat and water rat jokes! --62.173.194.7 07:15, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I've heard that rats will laugh in a high-pitched sound too high for humans to hear when tickled, but "a sense of humor" is going too far. 61.230.79.242 09:39, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Super Rats?
Where is the source on that?

Super Rat
None of the links on the page point to any evidence of their being a "Super pip". It is common that many species develop immunities to toxins through constant exposure or generational conditioning. This is not remarkable of rats at all.

I will delete "Super pip", although I think that if someone wishes to put it back, they should motivate it fairly well.

An example of super rat is Christian S. P. of UNO C! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pharm unoc (talk • contribs) 07:51, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Addition to the article that have been (without explanation) reverted.
Fact: Some rat species are on the endangered species list and it is a felony crime to harm them. For example: Rattus Rattus aka as the "Black Rat"

Fact: Rats nowadays "destroy" less overall food crop in relation to population than in the 60s due to pest control and also high crop yield in relation to that of decades ago (5%-10% goes to mice and rats).

Fact: Rats are the object of religious worship in India. ref Karni Mata Temple.

This information can be verified on the net:

For example "Rattus Rattus" (Black Rat, Dachratte) is an endangered species (red list) in Europe, for example in Germany: http://www.bayern.de/lfu/natur/arten_und_biotopschutz/roteliste/rote_liste_tiere_pdf/mammalia.pdf It is the equivalent of felony in those jurisdictions to harm a member of an endangered species. Surely you were thinking of "Rattus Norvegicus" an abundant species world-wide.

Lookup "Karni Mata" temple on google.

Whoever reverted the article on me: Can you refute any of these facts?

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Rahul khemka (talk • contribs) 05:43, 16 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The Black Rat is an extremely common commensal species that is not native to most of its current range. If the animal is listed locally as rare or uncommon on a list, it is because it has not been a particularly successful invasive in an area or attempts to eradicate it have been largely successful.  IUCN and other international sources do not list it as threatened in any way.  It is not red listed in Europe or anywhere else.  You are correct that some species are endangered: Nowak (1999) states that IUCN lists 21 species as threatened in some way (critically endangered to threatened).  In contrast only seven species are important human commensals and are the main causes of the spread of disease, crop loses, etc.  I'm sure the initial revert of the information on Karni Mata was due to it's being coupled to the Black Rat endangered aspect.  --Aranae 02:07, 13 December 2005 (UTC)



This is getting funny, but by all means: The species we belong to is not native to most of its current range and attempts to eradicate us have not been largely successful :-).. On a more serious note, for example the black rat (rattus rattus) enjoys legal protection in Europe and many other territories and jurisdictions as an endangered species making it highly illegal to harm these animals or to interfere with them. This is important legal information that people must know about. I posted a link backing this to the Office of Species Preservation of Bavaria and it is in German. In case you are not fluent in German then you can ask someone who is or a machine translation should be enough to convey the gist of it. If this argument goes on for longer then I will lookup english sources but I try to keep the auxillary efforts to this debate within reasonable limits.

I was going to revert the article entirely to my previous version of it... (somehow my browser cache probably played a trick on me) but then I checked the article history again... :-). The Karni Mata addition is now in there, but the endangered species status of the black rat (maybe not in the US but certainly in other places!) is still missing. I will put that in now.


 * We also aren't listed as endangered. With the possible exception of some misguided local authority or perhaps game animals, no one is going to list an invasive species as warranting protection.  IUCN lists Rattus rattus as Low Risk/Least concern: "Taxa which do not qualify for Conservation Dependent or Near Threatened." .  I encourage you to include some of the geniunely endangered rats such as Rattus baluensis, but the notion of endangered Rattus rattus is absurd.  --Aranae 18:09, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

You seem to be ignoring even though rats in general are said to have originated from the grassland steppes of east asia, our species hadn't probably even "invented" agriculture when they came along to steal our precious foodstuffs. Meaning... they've been here for tens of thousands of years and they've become a stable addition to our ecosphere, many smaller predators dependent on them for their existance. Nearly every species on this planet is invasive and wherever a niche in the ecosystem offers itself, you will find some sort of life filling it. I guess what puts you off about rats is the way they go about their "invasion" with regards to their strategy of throwing meat at their opponents, their wombs being the foundries out of which legions after legions of ruthless, squeaking, furry animals issue, hellbent on eating your breakfast cereal (if need be even off your table)
 * -). Relax... this is not the year 1200 BCE and we're not living in what is now called Egypt. We're not starving

and in case you wondered: People in the 3rd world wouldn't be starving either if it weren't for our and their governments. I was in Zimbabwe about a year ago and they were SELLING FOOD AID at the post office. Rats have not (as far as I know) learned to operate a cash register.

Anyway... Rattus Rattus is an endangered species and it is on the red list and it is against the law to interfere with or harm these animals. This information will go into the article at a prominent position so that even the casual reader will notice it. A species gone can't be brought back. If you feel that the Black Rat is not deserving of such legal protection, please take it up with the responsible authorities.

The black rat is indeed endangered in some parts of Europe. I didn't know that it was in Bavaria, but I knew it's nearly extinct in Great Britain and Scandinavia. From the PDF (http://www.bayern.de/lfu/natur/arten_und_biotopschutz/roteliste/rote_liste_tiere_pdf/mammalia.pdf) I can't find that it's protected; it's only listed in the table in the paper, but not in the table at the end, which I suppose is the real "red list".

By the way, why should my German be better than yours, Aranae? I'm Dutch, not German ;-). There are many Dutch people who don't know German (although I can read it easily). Ucucha (talk)  16:40, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Ucucha, I know you're Dutch, but you have basic German listed on your userpage. I also thought you might have an opinion on the subject.  Thanks for your input.
 * Governments have been crazy enough to grant legal protection to feral cats so I suppose it's not impossible that because an invasive, problematic species is in decline they might only see the decline part and list it. It's certainly not afforded protection internationally.  I can't demonstrate that it's not protected locally in some parts of Europe.  I would encourage that the statement be cited in the article with a source that's fairly unambiguous.  --Aranae 18:59, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, I don't think it's good here. This is an article about the genus Rattus; there's no reason to give the status of one species so prominently. It should be included in black rat, though. Ucucha (talk)  19:48, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Aranae, it certainly shows that you harbor a distinct dislike for rats. That is too bad. Rats are not the pests you take them for and if it weren't for them, nature could do us a lot worse. However, I know that some people harbor an unexplainable fear and dislike for the species much like people do for snakes and the like. I should know.. I've been with many a herpetologist who praised their "pets" and I myself don't like snakes one bit. But staying on the subject... I would never take it unto myself to edit away one important piece of information about rattlesnakes. I could image someone adding the fact that the Timberland Rattlesnake (one of the nastiests venom-wise) has become nearly extinct. Why I wonder should I go and delete that information?

Anyway.. I think especially due to the fact that rats are not everybody's favorite species and in conjunction with the common belief held by people that rats are one of the most abundant mammalian species on earth... people need to be be aware that some species of rats are endangered (and I hope kept from throwing a rock at a black rat aka Hausratte, though nobody should ever throw a rock at any non-threatening animal for any reason). It is however also a very good idea to add it to the specific black rat article, thank you for reminding me.

The PDF states that the population of the red listeted Rattus Rattus aka as Hausratte aka Dachratte (roof rat) has possibly improved from the previous paper (two indoor populations in Wuerzburg and Nuremberg). Even though it is easy to understand written Dutch when one speaks both English and German, please don't ask me translate it into Dutch :-).

@el C:m (Revert: "Many jurisdictions" is misleading if the "IUCN lists Rattus rattus as Low Risk/Least concern: "Taxa which do not qualify for Conservation Dependent or Near Threatened.")

Conservation legislation is not a world-wide uniform code and regardless which priority an international body assigns to a given issue, it is the local law of the jurisdiction that must be respected in order to avoid fines and prison time. No matter whether it suits you or not, it is against the law to harm any protected animal and as far as the law is concerned, it is common good advice to better be careful with it than sorry especially when you're abroad.
 * I would still argue that the burden of proof lies with inclusion of the statement. A population in decline does not directly translate into legal protection. --Aranae 11:52, 15 December 2005 (UTC)


 * @ano: I understood it, but I didn't find any reason for thinking it is "protected". It wasn't in the table at the bottom, which I suppose is some kind of list of protected species.
 * Furthermore, I still don't think the conservation status of a single species should be mentioned so prominently. Rattus still has 50 species, which is much less than in its early days when it had 400-600, but still very much. Ucucha (talk)  14:11, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Aranae asked me to evaluate the source, which is the list of endangered mammals in Bavaria, a state of Germany. I read through this document: it does not provide evidence for a protected or endangered status of Rattus rattus in Bavaria. At the end of the document, all endangered or extinct species are listed, and Rattus rattus is plainly not among them. The only reference to the species is made in another table, where it is stated that R. rattus had been listed as "extinct" on the 1992 list but was removed from the 2003 list, because two indoor populations were found in Wurzburg and Nuremberg in 2000.

The document does not give any explicit information regarding the legality of hunting or killing animals on the list, or any other legal protections. It does however give information about the numbers of hunted animals of two species (Mauswiesel and Hermelin) which are listed as endangered, suggesting that hunting of these is not completely illegal. But since R. rattus is not on the list, all of this seems to be besides the point.

So if indeed R. rattus is protected somewhere, we need better evidence for it; the presented document simply doesn't do it. All we can glean from it is that before 2000, no populations of R. rattus were known in Bavaria. I don't know whether Rattus rattus is protected in parts of Europe; I find it unlikely, but that doesn't mean much, I have been wrong before. What we can certainly say is that R. rattus is extremely rare in parts of Europe. AxelBoldt 15:49, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Who decided that pet rats are more disease prone through inbreeding? What sense could this make, seeing as wild rats are colonial and therefore mostly related? If anything, pet rats are less inbred, in general, and still remain more disease prone. The most likely cause of this is because of the laboratory origins of most fancy rats, which are from lines where cancer is actually bred for so that treatment can be tested, and other such diseases/treatments. 86.142.111.181 16:12, 18 December 2005 (UTC) ragnarok.

"Rat" is also slang for the female genitals. No-one has mentioned this so far so I thought I would.

Isle of Man
"On the Isle of Man the word rat should be used with caution; even today many people may be  shocked, and indeed offended upon its utterance."

Why must the word rat be used with caution on the IOM? It doesn't give any reason, unless you click on longtail. Then it explians that it is a superstition, because of that I am going to edit it in. 22-Dec-05 Snitch


 * Well, that explains something. I changed that passage to what I thought was clearer English and the superstition information was lost. Thanks for fixing my mistake. One more question: is "It is bad luck to say foo" an idiom which is equivalent to "Saying foo brings you bad luck"? --GrafZahl 15:01, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Information
Do you have a kids type? I need to do a report but the way it is put is long and boring. Can you make it a bit more interesting? Why don't you make a wikepidia for kids? We want something with good facts and what we need to know but still interesting. It would help and I bet even adults might think it is nice. Try to use words we can understand. Maybe even more people would want to use this website. Bye I got to go.By the way my name is Annissa.


 * I, as a 13 year old, think this is ridiculous and can understand this just fine. If ou gain a vocabulary and some knowledge of various things, you might be all set.


 * There is a Simple English version, don't know what it's like. However if you understand what's being said then all you have to do is write your own version of the text with the bits that others may find interesting. --62.173.194.7 07:14, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah... The plain English version probably won't help write a report: Rat is a small mammal. (That's the entire article) PrometheusX303 12:55, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

denouncing?
denouncing is the right word?
 * Denouncing is a real word, if that's what you mean. --62.173.194.7 07:11, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

How about mice?
The entry for Murine redirects to this page; murine means both mice and rats, and more particularly means mice. Would it make sense to change the redirection to a simple page suggesting visitors see Rat or Mouse?


 * It should be a redirect to Murinae. I just changed it. Thanks for letting us know. Ucucha (talk)  19:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

A group/pack/herd/school of rats?
So, what do we call a large group of rats then? --62.173.194.7 12:18, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, asked around at work, someone says colony another says Mischief, both, or only one or none correct? --62.173.194.7 12:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Horde or mischief. PrometheusX303 12:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much. --62.173.194.7 07:10, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Very welcome. PrometheusX303 12:53, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Plague not rats and fleas reference.
Samuel Cohn said that the spread of Black Death in medieval Italy was too fast to be plague. The weather was too hot and dry for fleas.

ref: S. Cohn, "The Black Death: End of a Paradigm" American Historic Review, cvii (2002) p.712

From p.126-7 Rat (2006) by Jonathan Burt

Rat-baiting
You might want to participate in this vote.

Articles for deletion/Rat-baiting

Cordially SirIsaacBrock 01:43, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

How big can a wild rat grow?
In India during a night I think I once saw a rat that was the size of a small cat, was that possible? Mieciu K 15:56, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It's definitely possible. The largest rats (as in large muroids) in the broad sense are Cricetomys which are raccoon-sized. -Aranae


 * That would have to be a small raccoon :-)  Steve Dufour 18:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Wow, that's a big one. And what about wild rats that you can encounter in cities? Mieciu K 18:33, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I found the answer: "Most large urban rats weigh under a 3/4 of pound (340 g) . Despite the ubiquitous "it was larger than a cat" description of city rats, few rats weigh much more than a pound. The largest dog-caught rat ever weighed (by Brian Plummer) was a monster that tipped the scales at 2.4 pounds. (1.01 kg)" Mieciu K 18:45, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * This would be in reference to non-native rats found in urban areas outside of their native range. These would just be brown or black rats.  Tropical species (such as those found in India) can get much bigger than brown or black rats. In cities in places like India you can get some of these larger species. I'll try to track down a size when I'm reunited with my reference library.  --Aranae 19:06, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It looks like the only rat in India larger than a brown rat (which can reach 25 cm - head and body) is Bandicota indica (21-34.5 cm head and body). Bandicota indica (the large bandicoot rat) is mostly an agriculutural pest so probably wouldn't be present in an urban situation, so it looks like brown rats would be the biggest rat you'd be likely to encounter in a city in India.  (Sizes and distributions from Corbet and Hill, 1992).  The world's smallest domestic cat is about 19 cm long  so I guess calling these rats "cat-sized" might be almost fair.  --Aranae 01:37, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

To Add this Link?
Would it be okay to add an external link to a page I've written about rat control in homes? How to Get Rid of Rats
 * Looks like a reasonable site to me. --Aranae 21:17, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, I added to the external links page. I hope this qualifies as verification. --Samoya15:48, 5 August 2006
 * Given the Google ads on your site and additions to multiple articles, it appears to me that you are using Wikipedia to promote a personal site. I've removed it. OhNo itsJamie Talk 19:42, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Usage of captals?
Why "Black Rat" and "Brown Rat" but "Bandicoot rat"? What are the rules for capitalisation of species? Shinobu 05:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The rule currently enforced is to write species names in all-capitals, unlike genus names. Bandicoot rats are a genus (Bandicota), the other two examples you mention are species. Ucucha 06:05, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah. Thanks! Shinobu 11:11, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Latin should be italicized.
So when it refers to a species of rat, it should say Rattus rattus rather than simply Rattus rattus. -- YS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.52.215.6 (talk • contribs) 21:09, 6 November 2006

bias article
This article is very bias, very clean rats? whose standard? Some people keep rats is enough, it does not to be an advertisement. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Charlie yusi (talk • contribs) 01:33, 5 December 2006 (UTC).
 * It's education, not advertisement. The prevailing image of rats depicts them as inherently filthy, diseased, and infested with parasites. The article is simply making the point that while some rats fit that description, this is a result of the environment they live in and not an intrinsic trait. The standard of cleanliness invoked by the article is that of other pets: fancy rats are as clean as pet cats and dogs. Pat Berry 19:58, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Which means that the article does not show a neutral point of view. Wikipedia is not here to "educate" people about rats as pets; it's here to tell the facts. The facts are that the overwhelmingly vast majority of rats are wild and are therefore disease spreaders. -- Charlene 04:26, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Of course. Feral animals of any sort can spread disease. That's true of cats and dogs as well. But the existence of pet rats, and the fact that they are clean and healthy, is relevant information. Mentioning it is not an "advertisement", nor does it make the article "very bias" as Charlie yusi asserted.
 * The article currently includes facts about rats as both harmful vermin and benign pets. That seems quite balanced to me. Do you disagree? Pat Berry 20:29, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Would a rat survive being flushed down a toilet ?
How long can a rat keep it's breath ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.213.41.69 (talk) 18:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

Don't know, but they're good swimmers. Dora Nichov 11:55, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

What is the rat population ?
Some demographics would be nice —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.81.64.232 (talk) 02:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC).

Absence of chapter on rat as experimental animal in scientific research?
I was very surprised not to see a part of this page talking about the use of rat as experimental animal in science, because i think after mouse, it is the first used animal model in research. Is it plan to add it? do you want me to give it a try? Moredeth 09:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Would it not be better at Brown Rat? --Aranae 17:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, sorry for the useless question. Moredeth 08:25, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

there's no reason why Rat couldn't have some very generic info though, with a seealso or main template added -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria

Popular Culture
Having been watched an edit war at Orangutan regarding the popular culture section being moved to separate article - so as to keep the biological article separate from the popular culture item - I am interested to know what the feeling might be here - where the popular culture section seems well integrated and there appears to be no obvious problem with that- is there any interest in having a separate article? I started a stub in the animals in popular culture category - but will gladly let it lapse if there is little or no response to this query, here with this article. No need to change this article if there is no disquiet about having such a large section here. SatuSuro 01:32, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


 * There aren't really any regular contributors to this article, and I think that how it currently works is just fine. Actually, the Pop culture sections for Rat, Black rat, Brown rat, and Fancy rat really need to be reworked so they're accurate.  -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 00:54, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

In Peanuts, Charlie Brown's favorite utterance, catch phrase is 'Rats!', shouted after suffering yet another personal reversal; it probably fits within the definition of PC, here.

68.228.70.223 13:24, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, on the online game of runescape 2(please refer to runescape article) there are normal and giant rats to kill(poor rats).Metaf5 21:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * That sure is true. Backtable 17:05, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I think this is a good example of a silly Popular Culture section. This is the type of thing that got parodied in the infamous xkcd strip. Thane —Preceding undated comment was added at 16:04, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Should mine rats be mentioned?
Rats have been used to clear mine fields in countries like Sudan for about ten years. Do you think their effort should be mentioned? Results with mine fields have been so good that rats might also appear in airports to check luggage for suspicious contents. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.183.205.213 (talk) 15:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC).


 * Go ahead and mention them, IMO. Steve Dufour 18:40, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, please mention how the rats did various jobs, such as mine clearing. Metaf5 21:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Radio show
There was an old radio show that told the story of rats taking over a ship. Does anyone know anything about this? Thanks. Steve Dufour 18:50, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Can we unprotect this page? I want to add something.
I want to add something. I hate having to log into 40 different websites a day. I didn't find mention of fleas and tropical rat mites in the vermin section.

Rats and the Food Supply
This article claims:


 * Rats have a significant impact on food production. Estimates vary, but it is likely that about one-fifth of the world's total food output is eaten, spoiled or destroyed by rats.

This sounds pretty unlikely to me and the link is to an uncited newspaper article. Can someone verify this or remove it? Thanks. — m a k o ๛  03:31, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

That does sound wrong. Here is the abstract of an article concerning depredation by rodents, including rats:

"Mice, rats, and other rodents threaten food production and act as reservoirs for disease throughout the world. In Asia alone, the rice loss every year caused by rodents could feed about 200 million people. Damage to crops in Africa and South America is equally dramatic. Rodent control often comes too late, is inefficient, or is considered too expensive. Using the multimammate mouse (Mastomys natalensis) in Tanzania and the house mouse (Mus domesticus) in southeastern Australia as primary case studies, we demonstrate how ecology and economics can be combined to identify management strategies to make rodent control work more efficiently than it does today. Three more rodent–pest systems – including two from Asia, the rice-field rat (Rattus argentiventer) and Brandt’s vole (Microtus brandti), and one from South America, the leaf-eared mouse (Phyllotis darwini) – are presented within the same bio-economic perspective. For all these species, the ability to relate outbreaks to interannual climatic variability creates the potential to assess the economic benefits of forecasting rodent outbreaks."

Stenseth1, Nils C. et al. (September 2003) Mice, rats, and people: the bio-economics of agricultural rodent pests. Frontiers in Ecology and the Environment, Vol. 1, No. 7, pp. 367–375.

One fifth of the world's food production? I think we can safely assume that rodent control methods in most of agrarian Asia are less-effective than those used by Western farmers and merchants. By this, I mean the use of a variety of easily purchased traps, poisons, etc. is far more common in the United States, Canada, most of Europe, and so forth, than it is in, say, Cambodia or rural China. Considering that Asia has almost 4 billion people and the estimated impact of rodents in general would feed 200 million, the statement regarding a loss of 1/5 the world's food supply to just "rats", or to just brown rats is very likely incorrect.

Here is a selection from: Crop Protection to Increase Food Supplies. (W. B. Ennis, Jr.; W. M. Dowler; W. Klassen. Science, New Series, Vol. 188, No. 4188, Food Issue. (May 9, 1975), pp. 593-598.)

Pest insects, birds and rodents devour growing crops and lower their yield; they also cause deterioration in product quality. Insects and rodents attack grains and other food products in storage and during transport. Disease organisms kill plants, cause rotting and blemishing of food products, and reduce crop yields and quality. Weeds reduce yield and quality by competing with crops for water, nutrients, light, and space, and also reduce the productivity and efficiency of land use. They poison livestock, interfere with harvesting, and prevent the flow of water for irrigation and drainage. Insects harbor and transmit diseases to plants, animals, and man. Nematodes transmit pathogenic viruses and intensify fungal diseases. The worldwide annual loss of 30 percent of potential productivity occurs despite the use of advanced farming technology and mechanized agriculture (2, 4). In many of the developing countries, losses greatly exceed this figure.

Provided that this is an estimate from 1975, and concerns the total impact of all pests, plant, animal, fungus, microbial, it is obvious to me that the estimate in the article is wrong. I could not find an estimate concerning depredation of the brown rat alone, so if someone knows of one they should include it in the article. I will remove the erroneous text. TeamZissou 07:19, 14 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Wow! That's great research TeamZissou. Thanks so much for your feedback! — m a k o ๛  16:03, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

"A rat has an average life span of 2-3 years" what about protein intake?
That is an interesting quote (sourced, yay!) ; I wonder how much that number varies based on amount of protein in their diet, based on the rat research mentioned in this talk given by T. Colin Campbell (5% vs. 20% protein intake, examining cancer tumours -- starting around the 15minute mark and onward) -- http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1308977765978236346 199.214.28.244 17:08, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the spam.TeamZissou 19:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I do wonder about the life-span estimate. In the wild a few years is common but my outbred lab rats commonly lived more than five years and several outlived the so-called oldest mentioned here. Ratinabox 13:45, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Another Movie
Doris from Home Alone 3 needs to be added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.21.154.113 (talk) 10:23, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

rats in experiments and as pets
In reading over this discussion page, it seems that both these sections were rejected as appropriate for an article about wild rats. Sorry for making the deletion without further discussion, but it seems like both the pets and experiments section should be elsewhere. Let's work out where they belong, then move them.Sound OK?Bob98133 (talk) 22:11, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

the pet section is here because it is a relevant subtopic... many people keep different species of rats (Rattus and otherwise) all over the world. appropriately, more detail is given on it's own article which the reader is directed to (Fancy rat). this follows the general style guidlines laid out at WP:SS. As for lab rats... we could theoretically move it out of here, as i'm unaware of any info on other species.... meh... -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 20:42, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Who is skelotor
I found this skeleton today at the Middle head forts in Mosman, New South Wales. I don't know what it is, I think it might be a bat or either a rat. Does anyone know what kind of bat or rat and what article I could put this pic in.. Cheers_Ad@m.J.W.C. (talk) 12:53, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It's a diprotodont marsupial of some sort based on its dentition. --Aranae (talk) 19:03, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Cheers_Ad@m.J.W.C. (talk) 23:01, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Popular culture section.
I suggest it be removed, as there are far too many references to rats in popular culture. · AndonicO  Hail!  13:36, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I question how much value these "in popular culture" sections are. They are sometimes fun to read, but they aren't very relevant. Once an article is developed enough to start questioning the inclusion of these culture items, I think it's time to consider dumping them.Bob98133 (talk) 14:41, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Once questioned in an ever so irrelevant article such as the popular culture section as to why it is included, it’s time for removal. --DavidD4scnrt (talk) 00:59, 6 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I also agree with removal. CopaceticThought (talk) 20:51, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


 * User:Bob98133 went ahead and removed the section as per this page. I would like to add that some, if not most, of what is in the "Rats in entertainment" section is more or less comparable to the past trivia section. CopaceticThought (talk) 23:48, 5 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The entertainment section starts off OK but gets a bit bogged down in listing so many instances. The portrayel of rats, and how that might differ from the reality, is interesting. A long list of every place a rat appears in entertainment is a waste, so I guess we should find some balance. Bob98133 (talk) 14:20, 6 January 2009 (UTC)


 * wow... doesn't anyone ever think to look at how long ago the last post was done before posting a response? neways, copaceticthought - ur right, i merely turned the list into prose.  but we have to remember that "pop culture" sections aren't inherently bad.  Some topics have been notably used throughout the history of entertainment, and this fact has subsequently been discussed in third-party reliable sources. what couldn't be properly integrated, was left in the list... i had meant to try and incorporate more, but it would seem that those mentions were too trivial. otherwise... it seems commonsense that if someone were to look up the article on rats, that they would want to know how they've been used in entertainment - i would want to know about dogs' roles, and would expect a mention of auto racing in the automobile artilce, and it makes sense to include notable examples of what's being discussed. I even have one more nice ref to add to support my mention of Templeton. All in all, i think this section is a great example of why we should take out our pens and work to improve articles, rather than just taking out the scissors and cutting them down. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 06:17, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I can't find it in the article...
What do rats sleep in? My friend said that they make nests, and I've heard that before, but I've never actually seen a rat make or sleep in a nest. Pickle derby (talk) 19:44, 9 February 2008 (UTC) Pickle derby

because the term rat is poorly defined, it isn't discussed in this specific article. however you're porlly talking about about the Brown rat and i believe nesting is discussed in that article. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 20:36, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Taste
What does cooked rat meat taste like? Diabl0658 (talk) 06:23, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Metacognition
From the article: "A 2007 study found rats to possess metacognition, a mental ability previously only found in humans and some primates.[2][3]"

This is bugging me a little - although it's correct, it kind of gives the impression that rats are the only non-primate mammal to possess metacognition, rather than that they have been one that has been found to display characteristics suggesting this which will pave the way for potentially showing metacognition in other species, which is what the research actually says. I'm not gonna wade in and edit 'cos I can't think of a better way to express this slickly at the moment, but can folk see the (albeit fine) distinction? Acidsaturation (talk) 23:44, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Eating rats is also forbiden in the Catholic religion
I really believe that eating rats is not only forbiden in Islam and Judaism but also by the Catholic and Protestant churches, so should I add Christianity? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.81.156 (talk) 03:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Not without a citation. In my experience there are no dietary regulations in most Protestant religions.  --Aranae (talk) 04:29, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Catholics don't have this rule. At least not Roman Catholics. Bob the Wikipedian (talk • contribs) 16:58, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

As Pets
Would somebody please make this more nonpersonal and like an encyclopedia? (Such as removal of words like you) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thegargoylevine (talk • contribs) 23:08, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Ways and means of rats
Long ago I've heard about rats biting through the thick steel (eg. in cargo containers), in the specefic intelligent way, ie. each rat of the tribe does it for a specified time and the next takes his place, etc, until there's a hole in the plate. Possibly they were rats from some island. Any information about this? Critto (talk) 17:38, 4 June 2008 (UTC) Rats as pets- rats don't smell as bad as mice, and guinea pigs, they are much moore entertaing and fun to play with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.177.163.9 (talk) 01:48, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

By size?
The article states "Rats are distinguished from mice by their size; rats generally have bodies longer than 12 cm (5 in)." Which implies that rats have the same relationship to mice that ponies have horses, rats are not large mice!! Rats are distinguished from mice by being different species. Alun (talk) 15:23, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * you are right, rats are not large mice, rats are generally large muroid rodents, while mice are generally small muroid rodents. The muroid family is very large and complex, and the common terms rat and mouse are not taxonomically specific.  Generally when someone comes across a large muroid, it's common name includes the term rat, while if it is small, the name includes the term mouse - scientifically the terms are not confined to members of the Rattus and Mus genera.  Compare the taxonomic classification of the Pack rat and Cotton mouse. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 20:20, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah! I see, thanks for that. Alun (talk) 06:45, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * you know, this was such a nice way of explaining it i'm putting it in the lead :) -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 21:42, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

useful links
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v428/n6982/pdf/nature02426.pdf

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0393317927/ref=sib_dp_ptu#reader-link

-ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 21:41, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Comment from Acd20
This is my first input on wikapedia. Rats are mainly thought of as dirty smelly creatures that spend all there life rumaging in dustbins. That is all rubbish. Rats make fine and friendly pets and are best in two's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Acd20 (talk • contribs) 16:49, 17 November 2008 (UTC)


 * i agree completely that rats make good pets, in fact, we have an article on the subject! For future reference, when starting a new topic on a talk page, click the "New section" or "+" tab at the top, and remember you can leave a signature by typing four tildes: ~ .  Happy editing! -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 07:24, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Swimming
Can rats swim? My family has a rat fammiy living under our shed. My dad told us we can trap it and drown it, it that true? Unsigned comment by 97.82.57.84 (contribs) on 12:50, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Please replyif rats can swim or drown. Yes-swim, No-drown. Unsigned comment by 97.82.57.84 (contribs) on 13:02, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That's an interesting idea. Rats are very good swimmers.  However, since they have lungs, they are capable of drowning if they are unable to leave the water and become exhausted.  If you plan to drown the rat, be sure the water is deep enough that the rat is forced to swim in order to keep its head above the water (such that it cannot stand on its hind feet and poke its head up).  Also, make sure it is impossible for the rat to climb or leap out of the water by surrounding the water.  I'd recommend about a foot of water in a 2-foot bucket or trash can.  Make sure the sides are vertical or nearly vertical and slippery so it cannot climb out.  As for getting the rat into the bucket, use whatever the rat has been interested in so far, and create some sort of course for the rat to get into it, marking an obvious trail to it.  Rats are smart, so you'll have to figure out a way to make it fall in.  Perhaps a smooth sloped surface covered in wet soap might work?  Good luck! Bob the Wikipedian (talk • contribs) 21:01, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * rats can also swim for a very long time (they tread water efficiently), so it might be a couple days before it drowns. If this is an entire family, though, good luck trying to get them all to drown (unless you plan on flooding the burrow - which still prolly wouldn't work as there is likely more than one escape hole).  Killing outdoor rats is tricky b/c poison might be eaten by other animals first.  I would call an exterminator personally. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 03:21, 11 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Make a bucket trap, google it for info. I've caught quite a few rats this way, it's something every family with a potential rat problem should have. If it falls in during the night, it will be found dead the next morning, it cannot tread water long. A bucket trap's main use is not eradicating the rats on its own but alerting the owner to the first presence of rats and killing a few now and then. It must be combined with other methods such as good snap traps(mouth type, T-Rex, Tomcat etc). Poison is also very good (outdoors only) but our rats are/have become resistant to bromadiolon and flocoumafen, our only option now is to use easy accesible poisons such as lead powder. Always use boxes to contain the poison so only rats and mice can get in. And remember, prevention prevention prevention! Once the rats gets into your house, everything will be more difficult. Kill them outside before they get inside, there is no mercy with rats. You must ask yourself the question: 'Wollt Ihr den totalen Krieg?' T.R. 87.59.103.233 (talk)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 21:58, 3 May 2016 (UTC)