Talk:Rat Terrier/Archive 1

Size Categories?
Where are these size categories coming from?

"There are 5 distinct sizes of Rat Terrier: toy tot, or tiny tot; toy; miniature; standard and Decker Giant, as discussed above."

The AKC recognizes no distinct size categories, and the UKC recognizes a miniature and standard. Including Deckers as a distinct size is certainly arguable, but I can't find any source listing "tiny tot" or "toy."

Additionally, listing five sizes seems inconsistent with the preceding paragraph, which only discusses three (namely toy, standard, and Deckers). Unless these five sizes are common distinctions for breeders to use, recommend we clean this up as it seems artificial. Options seem to be: a citation be found and inserted for the 5 sizes, we conform to the UKC definition of miniature and standard (13"-18" for standard), or go with the AKC definition and don't discuss distinct sizes at all. Macboots 02:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

After conducting more research, it appears the NRTA does indeed recognize a toy size. As the NRTA predates breed standardization movements and is the largest umbrella of groups opposed to UKC/AKC recognition, it would seem there should be some mention of their standards in the article... Macboots 13:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Possible Trojan...can anyone confirm?
When clicking on the "A Rat Terrier Posing" photo, I receive a notification that the object contains a threat to my computer...a Trojan virus variety. No other photo on the page, when clicked, gives me this warning.

Can anyone confirm this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.145.39.209 (talk) 16:59, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Tried it an no such warning appeared. You must be mistaken --138.49.23.81 19:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Comments on Tone
A tag was placed commenting on inappropriate tone... however the tone tag is used mainly for inappropriate voice or informal articles. As there are no comments here on the talk page indicating what problems there were with the tone, I'm removing the tag for now. Any Wikipedians who feel there is an inappropriate tone, please replace the tag and leave a comment here on what needs correcting. Macboots (talk) 01:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Teddy Roosevelt Terrier
I don't know how this wikidedia stuff works but this article on Rat Terriers is incorrect.

The breed that Teddy Roosevelt owned was a different breed with a length to height ratio outside that of the Rat Terrier breed standard. The dogs that Teddy Roosevelt are now recognized as a seperate and unique breed known as, whatelse... "Teddy Roosevelt Terriers". Teddy Rooselelt Terriers have shorter legs than their close cousin the American Rat Terrier. In anycase, the fact in the article about Teddy Roosevelt owning Rat Terriers are close but not factually accurate.

Somebody who knows how this Wiki stuff works please correct this article. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.97.216.248 (talk) 21:58, 4 May 2005 (UTC)


 * How it works is someone clicks "edit this page" and puts in the correct info. Hopefully they also add a "References" section to the end of the article listing the source of the info, or they come here to this page and say "based on the info about TR Terriers in xxxxx, I've changed the page accordingly." Elf | Talk 23:06, 4 May 2005 (UTC)


 * AFAIK TRTs are a selectively bred Rat Terrier, no longer called Rat Terriers but they once were a variant. Article needs editing but is not exactly 'wrong'.  This should go on the Dog Project TODO list or someone just fix here, be my guest!  Quill 04:43, 7 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Depends which organization you are discussing... the UKC now recognizes the TRT as a separate breed. However the NRTA, which has been maintaining registries for decades, does not.  Article now reflects both perspectives in keeping with the NPOV. Macboots 04:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

The NRTA does not recognize any such dog called the TRT.. nor does the UKC recognised the NRTA; in any way, what-so-ever.

NRTA breeders who want to register their dogs with the UKC must first register them as Rat Terriers with a registery of recognition ..like the UKCI or the CKC or WDOA or ARF.. ( I own 2 such triple Registered Teddy's.. :-) )

These are all verifiable facts... and therefore represent the NPOV.. I will review your edits and correct them as necessary.

Someone might want start a new section called "Type-B" Rat Terriers, if they feel that strongly about it. NCGingerHounds (talk) 22:44, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * We are both in complete agreement that the NRTA does not recognize the TRT and the UKC does... not sure what the issue is here. Article was edited to include the perspectives from both the UKC and the NRTA... Macboots (talk) 14:30, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

are you against rescuing dogs???
please replace the two dog rescue sites that were added on this page. there's nothing commercial about helping needy dogs find homes!

removal of those links is questionable at best, offensive at worst.

jen. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.217.75.61 (talk • contribs).


 * Quite the opposite, I am a foster for a rescue, and two of my own dogs came rescue (one from my rescue, one from another) as well.  In the end, wikipedia is not a web directory, so listings of 'where to get dogs' are not allowed - the article would become overwhelmed with them, there are so many.   If you think it's offensive, think of it this way:  wikipedia is not a soap box, we have to support the neutral point of vew - wikipedia can not say that "rescues are better places to get the dogs", so equal time would have to be given to the back yard breeder and the pet store (which also are not allowed).   DO you want that?      Promotion of web sites or services (even non-commercial ones, or ones for a good cause) is not allowed, so we don't list anything at all.   - Trysha (talk) 21:52, 21 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I disagree. Backyard breeders and pet shops are commercial operations, while dog rescues are not-for-profit (usually).  If there are breed-specific dog rescues, or a nonprofit animal rescue operation that has many animals of this type of breed, it would be appropriate to list that in the "external links" section.  Every single one could not be listed, but one or two could be listed.  If it cannot be decided which ones to list, then it can be left off, but I believe it would add to the article. --Gloriamarie 01:12, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

A fact that is clear upon reading the feisty comments above is that dogs and those humans who like and/or own a breed do resemble each other! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.7.142.220 (talk • contribs). -- Trysha (talk) 16:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I work with a rescue myself, and sadly many rescues do have overly large adoption fees and as such do not qualify for non profit status, making them a business, While Animal rescue is important, and a great thing to do, sometimes dogs are adopted out when they shouldn't be. This site should be a neutral ground, If every one supports rescue then no one buys a pedigree and then the pedigree goes out, look at the Siberian huskies and the Alaskan Malamutes interest in them was lost and the number of dogs that followed the breed standard dropped to less then twenty in both cases and were only saved by careful breeding. I my self own a mutt, a German shepherd cross who I paid three fifty for from a family who was trying to breed a new level of sled dog, I paid less for a 10 week old puppy then my mother paid for 6 year old pomchi with a four inch square of scar tissue from where it was mauled by a bigger dog, she paid almost six hundred for that dog BEFORE dental and spay this is literally a $1,500 dog. I'm looking to adopt a Rat Terrier now, because, yes I like my dogs and I like training dogs to do things, agility, hunting, and human services. My Mutt pulls a sled at a year old with as much skill as a three year veteran, you need the breeder to keep the breed alive, in a perfect world you wouldn't need rescues, but since the world isn't perfect, we have to help as much as we can, I work full time on my Small Animal Rescue and currently am houseing five rats with five more pending, I also rescue ferrets, mice, sugergliders, squirrels, and chipmunks, dogs, cats, birds, and in one case a 12' boa...not again though. Next time I'll call the snake rescue. they can have the rabbit eaters... but to get back on subject Wiki is a place for people to LEARN not Find their next lap warmer, or sock chewer. if they want to find a reascue theres a site called GOOGLE... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.88.242.93 (talk) 10:09, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Rat Terriers
They are cute kind and adorable! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.19.191.16 (talk) 02:04, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I was wondering if there has been any research, stats or a place to record issues with RT seizures? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.14.232.232 (talk) 20:28, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Color
The article doesn't mention that a very common color marking for the breed is bi-color. Bi-color is one of the acceptable colors and white. The small details box on the right column lists only "black tri-color" as the breed color. Surprisingly, the tri-color is actually a recessive trait - it just happens to be carried by a large part of the population of these dogs. There are quite a few bi-color dogs. If someone would like to add this to the description, I can provide photos. Ciscospice (talk) 18:52, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Style?
This article reads like an ad for the breed. Wording such as "equally cherished as a house helper, pest control, and a family pet." and "Fortunately breed loyalists maintained the bloodline, leading to the modern Rat Terrier we enjoy today." seems inappropriate in an encyclopedia article, and the general style of the article is in the same vein. I'd like to see the article adjusted to be informative, not gushing. There's lots of great info in this article (though it does need some more citations...), and it's well written, the style is just grating and not encyclopedic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.81.199.159 (talk) 07:37, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Origin of the Rat Terrier.
Okay, this is beggining to bug and confuse me, I have read the article and the external links over. The article itself states that the RT originated in England and was developed in america. The external links give the same info: "It is said that in 1820 England, the cross of Manchester Terrier and Smooth Fox Terrier was made. It proved to be one of the best mixtures in the sport of rat baiting.  They were called or named Rat Terriers."

This is correct. They were bread in the English Isles, around the approximate time of 1820. They were originally bread for hunting, however, it was found that they were exceptional hunters of smaller animals (rat baiting) due to their quick movements and agility, as well as their fierce "locked on target" focus. Now, once the RT was brought to America, it was popularized under Teddy Roosevelt when the Beagle breed was introduced into the line, making for a more stout, muscular, and deeper chested Rat Terrier. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.118.230.253 (talk) 07:13, 28 December 2011 (UTC) Would this not make the country of origin England and the Country of Development America. Even though they are more known in America, and a great deal of the history of the breed is in America. Isnt England still the true country of origin? Tekana | Talk 09:10, 2 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Huh. OK. I'll see whether I can find some more definitive info *somewhere* and respond here. Elf | Talk 18:33, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Ta elf. as I have said, its really beginning to bug me Tekana | Talk 19:21, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, I'd question that quote--like someone was standing around in 1820 to notate the first cross of a Manchester Terrier and a Smooth Foxie? I think not.
 * Your logic is correct, Tekana. Trouble is, people don't know the true origins of these little terriers.  The term rat terrier is still used in Ireland, e.g. for a range of types of little rodent routers, crossed with Lord-only-knows-what.
 * So the question is, is todays American Rat Terrier a direct descendent of ratting terriers brought over from England? I'm guessing not; my vote would be for parallel development of the rat terrier in the New World (and Europe and Australasia and...and...) making the Rat Terrier American in the same way as the Mini Foxie and Tentie are descended from English dogs but the country of origin is without a doubt Australia.
 * Now, compare this to the JRT, where the type itself was undisputedly developed in England and brought over to Australia already as an identifyable type-cum-breed thingy, but was not recognized in England. So Australia got credit for being the country of development.


 * Clear as mud;? Quill 22:55, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

In my readings of rat terriers (back to the first comment about Teddy Roosevelt rats) there are 2 body types: A & B. The first is taller and the second has much shorter legs and are known as "Teddy" rats, no doubt because they resemble Teddy's rats. Both are rat terriers and are recognized by the UKC, as such. If you want definitive characteristics go to NRTA website. katsrap--Kath 16:17, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Facts are facts .... why are you only allowing the mention of the UKC( which began recognizing RT's in 1999, a mere 7yrs ago!), and the ARTA? Why not be factual about the registeries that recognize the RT ... and include the UKCI (which was the first registry to accept the RT, and has been recognizing the them since the 1930's)? No inclusion of the NRTA either.

I also find it humorous that you mention the TOY aspect of the breed, yet you fail to understand that none of your "approved" registeries recognize the toy size. Only the Miniatures and the Standards are registerable with the UKC, ARTA, and the AKC FSS, as they claim that the TOY doesn't exist. It's fairly obvious to someone well versed in the subject of Rat Terriers, that this article if full of holes.

Oh, and another FACT that I would like to make clear .... Rat Terriers with the Decker Bloodline are called DECKER GIANTS not Giant Deckers!

Are all Rat Terrier owners this anal? I just saved a puppy from the local shelter and I hope I don't get this way. (Patrick)

I hope all Wikipedians are this anal Patrick. The object of this little game is so seek a concensus of truth. There are plenty of chat boards on Rat Terrier opinions. Thanks for rescueing a puppy bro! NCGingerHounds (talk) 22:49, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Isn't this the same breed than this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratonero_Bodeguero_Andaluz ? which is very common in the south of spain, btw. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.25.184.116 (talk) 11:53, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * They're going to be very similar, but not exactly the same. There are a lot of small white terriers descended from similar stock which are used for ratting around all parts of the world. While some of these breeds have been cross bred with other small dog breeds such as Chihuahuas etc, but for the most part they have just been bred in isolation seperatly from each other. The Fox Terrier article lists several of these in the descendant breeds section. I find that even in the UK, some Jack Russell Terriers would probably fit the American Rat Terrier standard far better than anything over here. Miyagawa   (talk)  13:20, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Nipper
Simply put, Nipper was not a Rat Terrier. It may have been a member of a terrier breed used for catching rats, but that does not make it a Rat Terrier. Nipper died in 1895. The Rat Terrier breed isn't recognised as a breed in the UK today.

Just from the period the dog lived in, the closest it could have been to a Rat Terrier would either be a Smooth Fox Terrier, or perhaps (but unlikely due to the period) a Jack Russell Terrier. Do not add Nipper back to this article, as it is not only incorrect, but completely impossible. Miyagawa  (talk)  22:32, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

The math seems off
If you do the math the record-holding terrier would have to kill one rat every 10 seconds for 7 hours straight to hit that 2501 mark. This seems...possible, but extremely unlikely. Is there a reference or something that can be placed in the article to back up that claim? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.133.96.173 (talk) 02:44, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I deleted this absurd and unsubstantiated claim. Michael Geary (talk) 05:18, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Old news reel film shows Teddy Roosevelt on White House grounds with 40+ rat (feist) terriers whom he told reporters present, were being used to rid the house of vermin.
There is so much confusion about Teddy Roosevelt and his son's dog Skip, and whether or not rat ( feist) terriers were used to rid the White House of vermin in the early 1900's. Why doesn't anyone look at the newsreel films of that era? I have seen on more than one occasion the same film of Teddy Roosevelt and reporters walking the White House grounds with more than 40 Rat or Feist Terriers running around excitedly. Roosevelt explained that they were there to rid the White House of vermin. Even today's White House researchers are unaware of this newsreel footage, but PBS, Animal Planet and the History Channel are not. It is true that the dogs were varied in appearance, but they were definitely in the feist group. And Skip really belonged to Roosevelt's young son, but Roosevelt took to the dog and they traveled the world together. Skip can be seen with him on his hunting trips etc. You know, they really did have film in those days. Why doesn't anyone watch the footage like I did and believe what they see?Marie Boston (talk) 01:55, 2 June 2013 (UTC)