Talk:Rave/Archive 1

Proposed Regional Updates
I would like to get some representatives of various individual regional scenes to edit their sections and bring them up to date. I've been active with the Toronto scene since well before the end of Hullabaloo and it's become incredibly vibrant, so that information is terribly out of date and could, quite honestly, use a complete re-write. I'm certain several of the other regions are in a similar state. I will post my proposed re-write in separate sub-section of this talk page for review before adapting the main page.

I am familiar with prime movers in many of the local scenes who can likely fill in the blanks and either edit directly or provide me with the info to edit their section for them (if they aren't up to speed on Wiki editing). - DynamicUno (Talk) 16:18, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

West Coast scene (US) section
only says "The". Someone should fix it who knows what they're talking about. Mfrisk (talk) 16:55, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Who wrote the Sydney Rave Section?
A first year philosophy student trying their best to incorporate as many big words as possible without actually understanding them?

Focus on drug usage
I don't know how neutral this article is, it keeps pointing back to drugs. This is an article about raves in general, not Ecstasy. I feel that while some people may do drugs, i.e. ecstasy at a rave, that it isnt necessary to mention it so often, as this would skew many peoples viewpoints about raves. Remember, a rave DOES NOT need drugs to be a rave, and this article doesn't need to continually mention it. Perhaps a whole section devoted to drug usage, availability etc... at raves. This way people don't only think about drugs when they read it. Somewilliepete 04:39, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Somewilliepete... Raves aren't about drugs... it's about the music and the cool lights. Radiacal Audio/Video Experience, right? No, I'm not saying that all ravers are drug free... but nobody is really drug free. There are people in big business offices abusing their prescriptions and stuff.... So, I think that most of the drug stuff should be moved to another article like Drugs_at_raves or something.... Opaz 04:34, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

--

Yeah, you keep saying this. Multiple times.

It doesn't change the fact that the majority of raves are little more than an excuse for large amounts of unsupervised teens to come together and get high. This schtick claiming it's "all about the music and lights" might sound real noble and authoritative, but that doesn't make it so. People are already predisposed in our society to attach drugs to raves in their thoughts. There's a reason this came to be, and it has nothing to do with misinformation and mass media. It came to be because raves have drugs. It really is that simple. I could probably find a fairly good cite suggesting that raves came to exist because of club drugs, given that the "music and lights" people keep coming back to are there only to facilitate better highs from said club drugs. The maintainers of the alt.rave FAQ (gotta say they seem to understand raves better than the author(s) of this article) seem to agree with this.

http://hyperreal.org/raves/altraveFAQ.html

The real problem with this article is the fact that it's almost entirely a work of fiction. It's painfully POV, non-neutral, and completely lacks citations. What isn't anecdotal is completely fictitious. Scrapping this and starting over wouldn't be a terrible idea to consider. 76.23.90.236 (talk) 07:15, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * This article is one of the most contrived, POV pieces on all of Wikipedia. It's clearly written by people who do drugs and go to raves. If you read any unbiased account of raves, you'll quickly learn that the entire POINT of a rave is to do MDMA. The lighting, music, and paraphernalia are all specifically designed to enhance the effects of that one hallucinogenic drug we know as "ecstasy." People who complain that this article is too focused on drugs are either complete liars, in denial, or shockingly naive about the definition and history of the "rave party." Unlike other parties or concerts which simply "attract" drugs, raves are built AROUND the drug MDMA. They are also dangerous places where people "trip" without incident for long periods, but put themselves at risk for dehydration, heart attack, or long-term effects like depression.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.126.226.142 (talk) 07:50, 3 October 2010 (UTC)


 * This is false. Raving has matured into a genuine business model for nightlife. Is there MDMA? Sure. Just like at frat parties and clubs and who knows where else. But there is a thriving music industry behind raving. Let's say you like Happy Hardcore. Where do you go to see your favourite DJs and producers? There is only one place to do that - raves. And that's why a lot of people go. I am happy to accept the statement that MDMA was a central component of early raving and remains a big part of rave culture, but to simply say that the entire point of a rave is MDMA demonstrates a woeful lack of experience with the subculture, at least in those regions with which I am familiar. DynamicUno 16:25, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Rave and raver
Rave and raver are two seperate distinct entities that should have their own articles. Grouping them together is like grouping driver and automobile in the same article. Grouping them together makes the rave article longer than it needs to be. I know there was previously an article on raver that was merged into rave but that article was full of content that really should have been in rave in the first place. I suggest that rave be about what is a rave, the history of raves, famous raves and such like. While ravers should be about what is a raver, the different types of ravers, etc. Tiggertrouble 09:10, 20 September 2006 (UTC) Agreed, raver ≠ "rave (disambiguation)." But, perhaps, this is original research. Unless someone can link to authoritative articles on types of ravers.suziewong 05:14, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

External links discussion
Does anyone else find that raveclick.com link a bit self-aggrandizing? There are plenty of rave resources on the net that have built up very strong communities - from alt.rave and the early xx-raves mailing lists through to message boards all over the world. I'd remove the whole paragraph but i don't want to step on any toes as an anonymous user. -- Anon
 * Definitely, I moved regional links into their own section and pruned the rest of the links down to 3. Hyperreal, Old rave FAQ, and the ODP directory (which actually includes the regional links). &there4; here&hellip;&spades; 06:10, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't think the Xmuzik link adds anything to the article, and think it's just in there for self promotion... The site doesn't seem to have any compelling or informative content. The same user added the link to a number of other electronic music articles today... I think it should be dropped. Barron64

I am surprised by the absence of a link to www.partyvibe.com which is a very good UK site on raves and free parties. It has been around for years and is full of useful information on parties, related drugs and legal implications. I think it should be added  Kyrian 21:32 08 July 2006 (UTC)

Untitled comments
I don't want to be rude but the whole of this article is so full of innacuracies as to be embarrassing and was probably written by people who weren't even born in 1988 using 3rd hand "information". It needs completely rewriting by people who actually have a vague idea about their subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.187.78 (talk) 08:51, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

as a real raver and i don't mean any offence but there are so many omissions on this subject and also it sound like its from a usa perspective i love the usa and its people and yes they invented house music and acid house but the momment the uk and europe tried making it own underground music we made it are own and changed it ,we invented hardcore, happy hardcore,jungle,drum n bass,techno and gabba techno,now speed and acid may have been big in the usa with there scene but they have no claim on taking extasy 1st it was a european chemist that invented the extasy that was taken in this generation in the real rave scene and yes i know the uk did take speed and acid to, but i was trying to make the point that e was big in the uk and europe 1st.the usa scene may have continued with detroit house and chicago house and then transformed in to electronica a more casual bland take on dance music.( user ratpack2) You do realize this article is supposed to be about the party, not the attendees, right? -- John Owens 06:50 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I see raver just redirects here, so maybe that's not such a bad thing. -- John Owens 07:22 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)

Oh, and I would suggest using the "Show preview" button option, rather than making over a dozen separate edits one right after the other. -- John Owens 06:53 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)

this page needs to be wikified in a major way. For example, hater should have its own page. Kingturtle 02:07 Apr 17, 2003 (UTC)

159.204.59.24, you really should get a login account. It would be easier to communicate with you. Try to keep your writing in this article specific to Rave parties themselves. Extra information about bands and the history of music can be written elsewhere in wikipedia. Kingturtle 03:12 Apr 17, 2003 (UTC)

Shouldnt it have a more neutral description to start offwith? It seems to focus on the USA - I didnt even know there were raves in the USA, I always thought it was a predominiantly Europe phenomenon, places like Ibiza and Manchester spring to mind. Htaccess 06:45 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)

This page seems to contain a lot of opinion regarding differences between raves and nightclubs. For example, "[nightclubs] attract the pre-existing dance music crowd, are 21 and up, and often sound more like commercialised radio stations than a continuous mix of international electronic music, in an positive atmosphere. The combination is apparent in the fights and hostile attitudes that often occur in nightclubs. Fighting or arguing of any sort is extremely rare at raves." I have been to both raves and nightclubs in the San Francisco area, and while I would agree with some of the opinions expressed here, nightclubs are described with an inaccurate generalization. Contrarily, I could point out that nightclubs are closely regulated and must obtain various permits to operate, whereas raves are often unlicensed. I have been to clubs without witnessing any violence, whereas I have seen persons carried away from raves due to drug overdoses. bneely 07:31, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Htaccess that this page seems very US-based in a lot of ways. It certainly seems to miss out on the huge number of illegal outdoor events which go on every year throughout the UK and Europe and are more in the spirit of the original raves than anything else. Although as the article does say the term rave seems to be a mainly US thing nowadays.

Also agree with Bneely - the only inherent difference in clubs vs. raves is their legality. Either or both can be dangerous, commercial or containing overdose victims. This bit is opinion and should be rewritten. spiralx 09:59, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I forgot to point out that I thought the "commercialised radio station" phrase is an inaccurate generalization. From locale to locale, the musical content at any type of venue is bound to vary. Also, what do people think about creating pages to describe clubbing and raves in different cities/regions? For example, there could be a page about California (perhaps split into northern and southern california), New York, Detroit, Berlin, London, etc. These pages could help point out regional differences and also cross-reference these locations' roles in dance music and culture. I'm just not entirely sure that such a breakdown would work and would be appropriate here. bneely 08:26, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Why not just add a section at the end that says that the term rave has fallen out of use outside the US and link to Free party and Teknival instead? Those already contain all of the information about the current scene over here... spiralx 12:14, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of this article, although I have to agree that it seems far too specific to US rave culture. Whilst the origination of many forms of music in the US (and the vibrancy of the US rave scene) are not disputed, I don't think that terms such as "candy ravers" and "PLUR" are particularly relevant outside teh US context, and the article seems to represent them as if they are constants within dance culture worldwide. I will have a think about it over the next few days, and hopefully do some editing on teh areas (UK drum and bass / garage raves / free parties) that I do know about. Will Lakeman 23:56, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

I agree - it's quite U.S-centric ... a lot of the culture is borrowed from U.K /European culture... they've been banging it since 1987 - There's a lot of rave issues yet to be outlined - max rspct 00:07, 23 May 2005 (UTC)


 * My issue isn't so much to do with where it originated or was borrowed from (most of my favourite records played at UK raves were from Detroit, via Belgium) but I think the article needs to reflect that raves are different in different countries. I think the US/UK axis of discussion should be avoided for the same reason - a raver in germany or Holland would probably not agree that US or UK rave cultures are more important that their own.

That said, I'd really like to change the emphasis on candy kids - I know plenty of people who still go to raves that wouldn't identify with that aspect of it at all. In fact, they' would probably freak out if they saw these kids at all. Will Lakeman 00:29, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

(Katefan0)I seriously think you are in error with the last revert. That sentence doesn't really make any sense at all. I'm not going to fix it back, but just try reading it and realising that it's grammatically awful. If you really have to have seperate sentences for some conceptual reason, just redo the whole paragraph, don't just leave it so it reads like someone just spat a full stop into there.

Anyone else have thoughts (I realise it's a *very* minor change, I was more to gain information than make edits, but I have a penchant for SPG).--Kyle Dantarin 17:06, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Whoops, Kyle -- I apologize, but you're completely right. For some reason when I read the diff initially, I mistakenly read that YOUR change was the one that split the sentence and obviously made it terribly ungrammatical.  I've reverted back to your version.  Sorry again!  · Katefan0(scribble) 18:10, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Lol, and now I feel like I over-reacted. Hehe.  Np.--Kyle Dantarin 18:53, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

Anyone with more knowledge about the Socal Rave Scene that wants to update that section, Check out this newspaper article from 2001, http://www.ocweekly.com/2001-08-23/music/rave-off/ good reference material. Vigvigler (talk) 21:54, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Notable raves series
I propose deleting or moving this section, as it's just functioning as a linkspam magnet at the moment. Check all the anon IP edits for details.illWill 20:19, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Might not be a bad idea. I have no personal knowledge of notable raves really, so I had just left it alone other than copyedits.  But you're probably right. · Katefan0(scribble) 20:25, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
 * I recognize many of teh Uk ones, and they certainly are notable, but I watch this page and I notice that anon IPs keep adding links to US raves (esp. Salt Lake City) that are currently advertising events. Strikes me as a bit dodgy.illWill 20:28, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I looked through the current list, and all but one have been established since at least 2000. Five years running seems sufficiently notable to me, do you have another standard you'd prefer to use? &middot; Katefan0(scribble) 17:22, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)

I think it might be an idea to delete most of the list - if you include any rave that has been running for five or more years, the list could be hundreds of items long. I'm just worried that this page is becoming a linkspam magnet.illWill 18:38, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Good idea. Added criteria to page comments requiring age of at least 5 years. Single events could theoretically qualify if occuring in 2000 or before.  This should help.  Exceptions are, of course, possible..  but should be presented here first.  &there4; here&hellip;&spades; 16:54, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I am in favour of deleting the notable rave section entirely. I think it adds nothing (except length) to the article. Rex the first 23:37, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I disagree... several of the series are quite notable of their own right, what we should be doing is putting very strict guidelines as per what belongs so as to reduce the size. (anything with its own article should be staying)  ALKIVAR &trade;[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 01:00, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I am still unsure. I'm worried that what seems to make notable raves in Europe are ones that have a website and are still going.  If put up stricter guidelines that might help but in the UK alone we had:
 * Amnesia House, Biology, Dreamscape, Eclipse, Energy, Fantazia, Genesis, Jungle Fever, Hacienda, Helter Skelter, Perception, Quest, Raindance, Spectrum, Sterns, Sunrise, Time, Universe, World Dance
 * All of these are notable and have a right to be added but if someone comes up with guidelines that rule out most of these then that would help. Rex the first 16:17, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Cited in independant literature for a start, though further requirements would still likely be needed. In the meantime, I suppose we could listify it (ugh!), but I would also love a good alternative.  This article needs some references anyway, who has some good books / articles on rave culture?  I like it in the article, but would reluctantly agree with Rex if reasonable guidelines cannot be decided.  &there4; here&hellip;&spades; 18:09, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Well I certainly have a large collection of published "rave history" books... the problem becomes many of them list one off events as well as long running series... Perhaps we should instead spin off this section to "List of noteworthy rave series" ? (Not too sure what a good title would be).  ALKIVAR &trade;[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 19:43, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I think there was only one J18 / Carnival Against Capitalism and one Castlemorton (but Castlemorton was significant in the UK). There were three "xs 2 the ravezone" and  four "Heaven On Earth" raves so I'm not sure where you start calling one a series but there are definatly enough to have as a separate section, of which I am in favour. Rex the first 01:16, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Hrm, series to me defines multiple events, same name, same promoter. And spin-off things like the International Love Parades would count as a series, even though the other countries are run by other promoters...  ALKIVAR &trade;[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 02:29, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Does that mean we need to delete all the one off's (even important ones) and does that mean we agree to, quoting here&hellip; listify it? Rex the first 01:48, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Oneoffs dont count as a notable series... so I would say yes... no one offs even if they are notable. perhaps the spin off list could include notable one offs as well. I think List of noteworthy raves with a Series section & a One-off section would be a very good compromise.  ALKIVAR &trade;[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 00:30, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I have moved it over, should there be a short section at the top of List of noteworthy raves?? Rex the first 17:53, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Nice one ALKIVAR, the intro looks good, I have changed rave party to a link. Rex the first 14:42, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

deleted
List of noteworthy raves is on it's way to deletion. If creating similar in the future, the deleted contents should be a useful starting point. Sources are needed! ∴ here…&spades; 01:34, 27 November 2006 (UTC) Just wanted to mention a mention of raves in a ~1966 interview with members of Pink Floyd. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.229.226.105 (talk) 16:31, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Types of ravers
I'm going to reword this section, and indeed much of the article, to stress that much of the view of 'rave' as a distinct culture proceeds from the US. Here in the UK, there are house, drum and bass and garage raves (amongst others) and the scenes actually have very little in common with each other in terms of style, philosophy, anything. Furthermore, the raver dress codes that are mentioned here are bizarre, to say the least, as are the references to baby ravers and raveness - I juts don't recognise this stuff from my own experinces.illWill 5 July 2005 23:17 (UTC)
 * As long as you don't eliminate information, but rather add to it. Just becuase you haven't heard of it in the UK doesn't mean it doesn't exist elsewhere.  &middot; Katefan0(scribble) 18:41, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

I wasn't planning to remove any information - I just don't think its good Wii style for the dress code of a small minority of a subculture to determine members of a global group. I'd actually like more material on different rave scenes (India, Thailand, Israel, Australia) hence the geographic bias tag. Also, I used to live California, and have been to a number of big raves in Asia too, and I've never seen any "jungle raver dress codes" involving wooden beads, which is why i find that paragraph so odd.illWill 18:54, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree it could use some geo-massaging. I personally know nothing really about raves except what the average person in touch with pop culture would know.  My involvement in this article was through the Cleanup Taskforce.  Go nuts &middot; Katefan0(scribble) 19:02, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

The term "rave party" is a bit old-fashioned outside of the US anyway I'd say. Outside of the US you'd have clubs, squat parties, free parties or outdoor parties instead of raves nowadays spiralx 15:30, 29 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I've added some stuff on Australia. Some of it might belong in the history part and some of sort of says the same stuff as the US, but well we cna work on that later if it bothers anyone.JenLouise 06:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Just wanted to point out that Sydney isn't the only place raves are held in our fine country [Australia].
 * I was a little disappointed to see that Melbourne didn't rate a mention at all, and this whole section was entirely devoted to the one city. Shaybear
 * I live in Sydney and I did a study on the Sydney rave scene that's why my info is all about Sydney. However I called it Australia and not Sydney so instead of being disappointed why don't you try and add some info about Melbourne? That's what wikipedia is all about. Cheers JenLouise 23:54, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

re : Glowsticking
my comments here are in the cleanup project page too. i'm not sure there should be a whole section on glowsticking. the section is badly written as is (i think). glowsticking is one kind of dancing that happens at raves. so are flagging, firespinning, liquid dancing, popping, breaking, ...all kinds. why single out glowsticking? in my mind all that needs to be said about this is that glowsticks have stereotypically been associated with raving (where i come from anyways) -- they are "rave flavour" -- and that police have looked at glowsticks as drug paraphernalia when looking for excuses to shut parties down. that's it though. i don't think you can connect the fact that glowsticks are used to give someone a "lightshow" and the fact that police see them as drug paraphernalia. to me it doesn't wash logically. and no need in this section to describe a "light show." ps : glowsticks stimulate the pupils, ha, you see with your retinas, firstly, and secondly any light stimulates your retinas. that's how you see, and not just at a rave.
 * you know, that section's pretty bad, so i might just tidy it up a bit. here's what i'd say: <>  that's all i'd say in this section.  everything else is subjective, based on someone's experience, off-topic, or can't be backed up.  209.82.111.194 17:40, 6 July 2006 (UTC)jpx

Can anyone clarify this: "Glowsticks (or "light sticks") purportedly soothe the unfavorable side effects of ecstasy, such as muscle tension"? Sounds like complete nonsense to me, I've never heard of 'muscle tension' as a side effect of ecstasy, and even if it was, the dancing you're presumably doing at the rave would surely remedy it? Quite how a glowstick would help is beyond me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by OliverHarris (talk • contribs) 01:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Muscle tension is a very common side-effect, google extasy and "jaw clenching." Check out the number of binkies at any rave--they're used to prevent damage due to muscle clenching.  As for how glowsticks help...To be honest, I don't know if they do or not.  But it might be that glowsticks shift the individual's focus, and therefore there is less perceived tension.  Who knows. 65.122.15.169 (talk) 00:25, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Section on rave crackdowns
It seems like there might be a need for a section on rave crackdowns by police (reasons/examples/criticism). This could include the RAVE Act, the recent Utah bust, and Czechtek. Any thoughts? 68.17.158.184 10:52, 22 August 2005


 * I think that anti-rave actions, including specific busts, are notable and should be mentioned, as doing so would fulfill part of the purpose of the article, which is to educate the reader about what raves are: a certain type of event that is a product of, reaction against, and integral part of society and culture. As such, raves have their share of proponents and detractors, and this fact should be noted. But to delve too deeply into the reasoning behind the anti-rave actions and what criticisms people have about them sounds to me like it would be inviting a lot of speculation and bias into the article. If undertaken, it would have to be done with very careful wording. This article tends to attract a lot of anonymous editors who don't show much concern for keeping it encyclopedic. Perhaps start here on the talk page by creating a list of anti-rave topics to mention. &mdash; mjb 21:17, 22 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I will try to dig up some websites of organizations that oppose raves. (I found some at anti-drug.com, the US DOJ website, and the Australian Broadcaasting Corporation.
 * In Britain, there is the Anti-Social Behaviour Act (bbc), which is used in a similar manner to the RAVE Act.
 * For more sources, EMDEF has a large listing of news on cases against p--Kyle Dantarin 15:06, 25 November 2005 (UTC)romoters/clubs (US only, I think). mazatapec 22:19, 22 August 2005 (CST)
 * I'm not at all part of the rave community but I am deeply disturbed by the crackdown earlier this month in Utah of a permited rave by swat officers. This needs to get out to the public. I'm sure you guys all know about it since most people editing are probably part of the community, but just in case you don't, go here . This is scary stuff, but then again, this is nothing compared to what we do in other countries.


 * just to clarify, the main legislation introduced and used in UK are the CJPOA 1994 and the CJA 1991(?), also possibly new SOCA 2005. ASBA 2003 was not intended primarily as a measure to combat raves, hence the accusation that old bill need someone to keep an eye on them, eg. use of terrorism act provisions against protesters. 194.80.135.84 14:56, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

The point about stereotypes
I don't know who put this here, and I think it should have been on the talk page, but it's a completely valid point. I don't rave, I've never been, but I do understand the culture and the ethos. Wrt the ecstasy scene that so often accompanies raves, the whole idea is to promote a different, non-judgmental and accepting atmosphere compared to standard nightlife culture.

Now I'm not saying that every single rave is of this type, on the contrary, but I think a large number of ravers would agree that stereotyping is not what raving is about. Tagging people for amusement "we're HARDCORE RAVEBEASTS!" is one thing. Cutting people into categories for derision is not what raves are about. --Kyle Dantarin 15:06, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I removed the following ALL CAPS quote from the Types of ravers section in the article:

THIS SECTION OF THE ARTICLE COMPLETELY CONTRADICTS THE ETHOS OF THE RAVE CULTURE BY STEREOTYPING PEOPLE WHO ATTEND RAVES.... IT NEEDS TO BE REMOVED. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.113.3 (talk • contribs)
 * I have no problem with the section as it contains widely used slang associated with the scene. The word rave itself could be considered equally as sterotypical as opposed to free party or other similar terms.  I'd keep the section, but it appears consensus may indicate otherwise. &there4; here&hellip;&spades; 21:25, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

POV?
"These early raves were called the Acid House Summers. They were mainstream events that attracted thousands of people (up to 25,000) to come, dance and take ecstasy."

Anyone care to back this up?


 * I cant back up the naming "Acid House Summers" but I can conclusively prove events of up to 100,000 people from late 1987 through 1992 in the UK.  ALKIVAR &trade;[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 10:34, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry, i meant to draw attention to the italicized words. "Take ecstasy". Coming and dancing, that's whole point, yes. The ecstasy claim though, that gives the impression that everyone was coming to take drugs.

'Rave party' or 'Rave'?
I notice that Rave redirects here. I don't know what is convention in the US, but in the UK nobody I have come across uses the phrase 'Rave party' any more. Not only is it a bit of an old fashioned term, but this article covers more than just parties, but the whole idea behind raving and the 'rave culture' as well. Would anyone object if I put copied this article to the Rave page and put a redirect on Rave party? Thenugga 12:44, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

removing external links to regional community
time for the (now 22) community links to go. replacing with link to Open Directory: Society/Subcultures/Rave/Regional. Please discuss and/or consider this a soft ban regional rave sites. ∴ here…&spades; 07:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Why were the links moved? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.228.60.48 (talk • contribs) 00:15, February 21, 2006


 * See WP:NOT - wikipedia is not; collections of external links.  22 links (and growing rapidly) was way out of hand.  Check out the open directory project at Open Directory: Society/Subcultures/Rave/Regional for a nice index of regional links. &there4; here&hellip;&spades; 02:39, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Reverts over Evonews's text

 * One of the most important developments in Wales in the early 2000s was The Evolution Experience series of events which, along with numerous others in the Wales and Bristol areas of the UK, seemed to buck the trend of the stagnation of the late 1990's.

Hello everyone. I notices that theres a revert war brewing over the recent edits. Perhaps everyone should discuss these changes here on the talk page. Aloha, Steve-o 14:26, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * User:Evonews looks very well-intentioned; just needs to read a bit more wikipedia policy. While I don't find this particularly compelling as worthy of inclusion -- it is no worse than the rest of the 2000s section.  Anyone feel like rewriting the whole thing?  I also removed the recently added raver's manifesto, perhaps warrented if accompanied with a published source.  &there4; here&hellip;&spades; 22:01, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I am currenty working on the best way to provide published sources regarding important developments in Wales in the early 2000s, perhaps someone can help me regarding the best way to get newspaper articles//TV coverage regognised when it is not readily available as an online source. I have lots of online sources reference big legal battles with the authorities over the Evolution Raves, and also there was an interesting case called "The Ali-G Trial" which was covered by the national press, including The Times. Furthermore, an important legal case at The Royal Courts of Justice Administrative Division took place in 2003 in relation to interlocutory injunctions and how they have effected the dance-scene in Wales. However, I havent got this far yet. Also I know that once The Evolution Experience is on Wikipedia there will be many editors and contributors, but we need to start somewhere! Help! user_talk:evonews 02:06, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds like you want to write an article like Wales rave scene in the 2000s? Perhaps wikinews?  There has been some interesting stories from the USA as well, check Dance_party_broken_up_by_police_in_Utah,_USA and all of the work put into that.  However, that doesn't warrent an article here on wikipedia about the promoter or the party.  &there4; here&hellip;&spades; 05:52, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I can quote a source: Ministry Magazine, Page 149, August 2002 Issue :

CLUB OF THE MONTH EVOLUTION EXPERIENCE, Terminal One, The Park House Centre, Haverfordwest

Since August 2002 the Evolution Experience crew have dominated the West Wales club scene. Their circus-style events have graced many sea-air-saturated venues in this area, and continue to go from strength to strength. We’re talking a 40k PA system, organomorphic visuals (Que? – Ed) and a light show that would have any hardened clubber reaching for their sunglasses. The combination of police check points near tonight’s venue, the warehouse-style main room and the whistle-wielding clientele give Terminal One a back-in-the-day vibe, of which we heartily approve. No detail has been spared by young promoters Thomas and Declan: the 40ft inflatable chill out church outside is pure class, as is the fun-fair and “bucking penis ride” (don’t ask).

The sun is still setting behind us, as Dave Pearce kicks off a ridiculously early 8pm-10pm slot, but the tunes are hard enough to have an already manic crowd jumping for joy. The anthems are flowing as quickly as punters in the 2,000 capacity hanger, and we’re soon down the front getting busy. Things fall into place upon the arrival of rave-master Slipmatt. He’s definitely most at home here, complementing the feel of the night by whipping the punters into a frenzy.

Lisa Lashes follows and is as mesmerising as ever, as much an attraction for her superstar DJ persona as her spinning talents. But Terminal One is a night that really belongs to the residents, a tight-knit family of hard dance lunacy that you’re as likely to find along side you on the dance floor than on the decks. The big names were gone by midnight, but the sounds gain velocity, each rezzie taking a half hour turn while the others jump around on the stage area inciting the masses. If you can beg, borrow or steal a copy of their video, you wont regret it.

You cannot deny raw talent, and the Evolution Experience crew are a force to be reckoned with, so call the number above, find out about their next event, get a car full and go West." user_talk:evonews 02:06, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

main article picture
surely someone has a better picture that can go on this article. the current one looks like a regular nightclub event. does no-one have access to a nice shot of a field of ravers in the early morning sun or something from one of the parades? --MilkMiruku 10:56, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Here is a couple you can use with our permission : http://www.fantazia.org.uk/images/Donnington%20Crowd%20Picture%202.jpg or http://www.fantazia.org.uk/images/Donnington%20Crowd.jpg user:Fantazia  They are both taken from our event Fantazia One Step Beyond @ Castle Donnington in 1992. 30,000 people, largest UK single arena rave ever, and pretty much the only ever one to have aerial footage. Can we add video? If so we have some....

Split
This article needs to be split. It doesn't represent a worldview, and it doesn't provide the analysis, history and breakdown of the British rave scene circa 1987-1992 I had hoped for. It just starts off badly for me: "rave *is*". In the UK, it's "rave *was*". Nearly 20 years ago! --kingboyk 01:36, 12 March 2006 (UTC)


 * It'd be fine to add more to the history section, and split parts of it off into separate articles if the amount of information warrants. As for whether rave "is" or "was", that's one of those subjective questions (kind of like the question of when punk died, if ever). --Delirium 07:22, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I disagree. Yes, the article is messy and mostly written by people without sufficient experience (until recently it was under the article title Rave party), but I regularly go to 'raves', which are sometimes promoted as such, sometimes not.  The definition might have changed a bit, but rave still is, promise! Nuge | talk 13:54, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I would recommend writing the history and breakdown of the British rave scene circa 1987-1992 into the article -- it will naturally split if it becomes too large. Until then, your point is moot.  Don't forget to cite those sources! ;). &there4; here&hellip;&spades; 01:27, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

i think the bit about the glowsticks and lightshows is a bit weird.. its not really like that ppl dont do 'lightshows' its just that someone likes to move a light cos it looks cool on e and other ppl watch it for the same reasons. the article makes it sound a bit like some people are the 'lightshow providers' and go around doing this service. and the bit about how it can reduce the effects of ecstasy wtf?? no! and why would you want to REDUCE the effects anyway? has a raver even written this article.. the real reason ppl like to wave glowsticks etc is because when you are on e the light leaves a 'trail' behind it as it is moved that can be seen for a short while after the movement has taken place (those photos are quite good in showing this) and its kinda cool - thats it!

Shameless promotion
I removed the following paragraph:


 * see old version to see removed txt. thank you for removing it. &there4; here&hellip;&spades; 06:33, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Please don't use wikipedia to promote your websites people! There are 100s of such websites and groups around the world, none of the sites mentioned is influential enough to warrant a mention in a general article. --Brentt 11:56, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Origin of the word "E-Tard" now confirmed
I cleared up the part on E-tards, which claimed E-tard is a combination of E and rocker person. This is not the case. It's actually a play on the word Retard.

Merge
I've just tagged Doof to be merged into this article. Comments, anyone? --Hughcharlesparker 09:21, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I changed the merge to Teknival as I think they might be more related. Rex the first  talk 09:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Doof and rave are very different beasts, suggest keeping them separate, just needs more material, will work on that.. I added (not under my username) a bunch of information on the Australian scene, may warrant a split of the various countries.. NathanLee 13:32, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Counter-arguements to "Raves as Resistance?"
There is not a single counter-arguement to "Raves as Resistance"!

Why I dont know, as there are plenty of obvious ones.

Example: The section says that many people come together to give up a notion of "self" and become part of the whole. Yet, this article spells out that there are different divisions in Ravers, from CandyKids to Junglists! So really its not giving up oneself at all, people become part of different groups all the time! I mean, when Academicia brings up such arguements that Raves are Resistance, typically there is a counter-point introduced somewhere. Why are those not posted here?

Fact is also that Ravers are generally kids. There are "older" ravers, but the majority are pretty young. And a 20 or even 30 something and a preteen dancing to the same music? Country music anyone? Hip Hop? Nope, this isnt a special age-transcending thing.

And Older Ravers do detest a lot of the music "these kids" play today too, and yes Ravers do know the DJ's name sometimes.

"The Stage is Absent" in underground raves was another claim, that the DJ is unknown. Well, ever been to a bar? The musicians are almost always unknowns. Your lucky if you get someone that has hit a chart anywhere at all. "The breaking of the cycle of consumption" also is an easily countered arguement that I cannot believe someone wouldnt have already written about, and therefor been posted here. Also try Hip-Hop battles, no stage either but people are still singing, dancing, listening to music.

Also, they are still using land, ableit illegally but therefor they are still consuming space. Also, they buy drugs. Hence, they spent money, for drugs. Illegal act but still consumption. CandyKids are a great item as well: they usually use store bought candy. All the music was at one time or another bought in a store and remixed (and remix tapes sell all the time in hip-hop, so its still consumption).

Look, I am a raver (sort of, I go to em you know?), and I find it, well, nearly offensive that these guys were claiming that ravers are some sort of resistance movement. We are kids listening to music, taking mind altering substances, and usually we do it away from parents or the authorities. How is that different nearly every party a guy/girl could go to in highschool? Country Music, the face of the conservative establishment in America, is listened to by tresspassers and people taking mind altering substances (like drugs or alcohol). Oh and the notion that we are breaking the cycle of consumption through music and dance is also dumb: I've been told by a few people at these raves that I dance like shit (probably do), hence there is a "style" to it. As for the music, downloading illegally is a "problem/liberating" thing across all forms of music, as for making entirely new music well that happens too. And no one ever, that I have met or heard of, at a Rave is actively trying to seperate themself from society, they are just part of a different social cliche from the jocks or preps.--Scryer360

--I agree with the above, with one caveat. The resistance section captures something important about the subject matter. The idea here should not be resistance, but instead the concept of "alternativeness", or subculture; while certain participants in raves may have felt as though they were resisting mainstream culture in some way, I think the better description is that they were parting with mainstream culture. I say parting with because the word "escaping" could be controversial. The rave event, when most successful, served as a sort of temporary social utopia. The rave experience was for many very much about idealism, but not resistance per say. --

Junglists
The entire section on junglists is POV & snarky.

Almost every sentence needs a rewrite. Junglist - refers to a sub-culture of the rave scene defined by drum and bass and jungle music. = Why does the further part of the paragraph say that this phrase is not in use, when it is used in the first?

Many Junglists detest mainstream rave music and prefer darker and deeper vibes. = That may be true of techstep fans but jumpup and liquid fans may have a different opinion.

Many junglists differentiate themselves from 'ravers' owing to the public/mass media connotations of the word. = So why does the further part of the paragraph state that the phrase is dead.

Many junglists dress in a more militant or urban fashion: many wear either hip hop influenced clothing or camouflage / military influenced clothing. = True.

Junglists are generally seen as more jaded, angry, and aggressive than other ravers but that’s not always the case. = True but don't like the suggestion that the majority of junglists are jaded & angry. Certainly not true of the older junglists.

This term died out in the UK circa 1996, and its continued use amongst certain Americans generates a degree of amusement amongst the British contingent. = Bollocks. Junglist is used by Brits & Americans alike whether fans, mcs or journalists.

In addition, UK fans of drum and bass / jungle are only too happy to term events 'raves' and describe themselves as, if not 'ravers', then most certainly 'going raving', 'going to a rave'. = This is part of the inheritance of the UK rave scene, the origin of jungle/drum & bass. It is not used to distinguish true British drum & bass fans from US "junglists".

Camouflage is definitely a fashion 'no-no' in UK drum and bass clubs / raves, as is any military clothing. = POV & Bollocks as anybody who has been to a rave can confirm - with the proviso some people take the camo over the top and get ridiculed.

--Dustek 09:36, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I strongly agree, I had a go at editing the Types of ravers section but bassically is people's unverified opinion. I will lable un-reffed statments as I think and see if it can get cleaned up.  Rex the first  talk 11:25, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Lack of any cites for over a month so I am going to kill the whole section. Rex the first talk 00:22, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

generally jungle in the uk is now refired to as drum and base and the drumand base ravers like to call them selves 'drum and base heads' (dave from north london) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.99.147.90 (talk) 20:06, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Focus on drug usage
I don't know how neutral this article is, it keeps pointing back to drugs. This is an article about raves in general, not Ecstasy. I feel that while some people may do drugs, i.e. ecstasy at a rave, that it isnt necessary to mention it so often, as this would skew many peoples viewpoints about raves. Remember, a rave DOES NOT need drugs to be a rave, and this article doesn't need to continually mention it. Perhaps a whole section devoted to drug usage, availability etc... at raves. This way people don't only think about drugs when they read it. Somewilliepete 04:35, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Rave fashion?
I believe there is almost no info about rave fashion, such as Rave Pants, and such. The participants at rave parties here in Sweden usually dress up in characteristic rave clothes. Paxinum 13:29, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Irrelevant Content
The article covers the UK then the spread around the world which is fine. It then has large sections about later scenes around the world with subsections relating to things e.g. drug use! which appplied from the start. If someone thinks that the US, Canadian or indeed the Sydney scene are somehow relevant to anything or anybody then perhaps they ought to move that content to new articles (minus the bit about ravers doing drugs). Agree that the picture at the top (of some Americans at the student disco) is unsuitable. Stutley 16:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Some of that content was merged into this article from seperate articles doomed to merge/deletion. Please feel free to go through and further merge this into the article as a whole, which will certainly involve removal of redundant content.  &there4; here&hellip;&spades; 18:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Anti-Rave Task Force
In the USA, I was active in the Washington, DC area rave scene during the early 1990's, and I can attest to the scrutiny it attracted from the local authorities. After some media coverage had been circulated about raves, word got out within the rave scene about the formation of an "Anti-Rave Task Force" by several branches of law enforcement. I was employed in a specialty clothing/electronica music store at this time too, which helped promote the scene by selling admission tickets to events. One day, I was alone in the store and talking on the telephone with a friend and fellow raver, when a mysterious man came in and asked if he could have some "rave brochures", which is terminology none of us in the rave scene had ever used - we called them just flyers instead. My friend on the telephone overheard this man's awkward request and then said to me, "Tell that undercover cop to get out of your store!" Sure enough, the man asking me for the "rave brochures" was dressed in a Hawaiian print shirt, Bermuda shorts, straw hat, and sunglasses - hardly the type of attire that we ravers were wearing at this time. His overall demeanor seemed to be quite assertive too, unlike the laid back nature of most ravers I knew then. Aside from all that, he also appeared to be much older (over 45 would have been my guess) than most of us ravers were anyway, so I would say it is plausible that he may have been an undercover detective of some sort. I then directed him to the area where the flyers were all stacked, but since it was just after the weekend, they were all for events in the past, as I had not yet had a chance to put any flyers for upcoming events in their place yet. He grabbed a few of the expired flyers and promptly left the store. I never saw him again. Kepiblanc 16:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


 * If someone can bring more info to the would-be existence of such a task force, that of course could be included in this article. I could easily imagine though how this person whom you encountered was merely an adult curious about this phenomenon. __meco 18:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

This was one of those "you really had to be there" type moments, I guess. The biggest clues which indicated to me that this man was indeed an undercover detective were his overall demeanor, which was very assertive and "police-like", and the overall timing of his visit to the store, which was right after a weekend when a rave in the DC area had been shut down by the authorities, with a local television news crew on the scene capturing this event on video.

There had also been some talk within our scene over this very same weekend about how a young daughter of somebody with political power (This was the DC area after all, which abounds with people who serve in politics, and such people generally have families, of course.) had attended this very same rave and wound up needing medical treatment that night as a result of ingesting some drugs at the event. I think that most of us would agree that if such a thing as this actually did occur, this girl's politically-connected parent or parents would likely have been infuriated by the circumstances, then started making some phone calls to exert some influence over the authorities of the area, which in turn could have resulted in the formation of an "Anti-Rave Task Force" among the DC area law enforcement community.

So, with all of the factors above to weigh in, I'm still convinced to this day that the mysterious man who was in my store on this particular day was actually an undercover detective, and not just some curious middle-aged adult who did not know how to dress fashionably as a raver and use the common terminology of our local rave scene. Aside from all that, by this time I had already developed a certain sense of discerning undercover detectives from previous experiences in the DC night clubs of that time, ones like "Tracks", "The Fifth Column", and "The Vault". It's not like it was really even that difficult, either - the undercover detectives in DC back then were a far cry from Johnny Depp and Richard Grieco in "21 Jump Street". Kepiblanc 16:57, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

maricopa county arizona currently has (as of 2009) an anti-rave askfroce, so we dont throw parties in maricopa county, also since 2001 in tucson arizona they have required dance hall permits for anything going beyong 2 pm with more than 100 attendees (essentially making in county parties illegal as the dance hall permits are simply never given out to anyone who doesnt own a club) Schulte123 (talk) 13:25, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Weasel section
The US Rave culture section of this article is replete with private thoughts and weasel wording. It ought to be purged thoroughly. __meco 18:06, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. The section reads very poorly.  It needs to be updated with some citations on whether raves have really lost popularity in the US (as I suspect they have). QuinnHK 15:44, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Layout
I think this article needs restructuring quite significantly. Currently it goes into depth with totally unverifiable original research about rave culture in different parts of the world, rather than addressing the issue as one on a global level. A lot of what's said in all the different regional sections I refuse to believe is "exclusive" to that reason, for instance, the bit about candy ravers in the Canada section, I'm pretty sure we have those types at happy hardcore events in the UK as well.

I really want to go through the entire article removing a load of unsourced stuff, and perhaps thinning out and removing some of these sections, but thought I should hear some more opinions before doing this. - Zeibura (Talk) 06:40, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Sourcing and cleaning up
I agree that this article's a bit of a mess, and tends to wander a bit too much. I see that most of the discussion here is getting somewhat old, apart from the section above this one on Layout. Before I take a stab at consolidating this one, does anyone have any comments or suggestions apart from those given above? Does anyone have any citation sources that'll work well? The following may come in handy, although I'd prefer to keep the focus on culture/history, not drugs or legality:

Sources http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs/656/ - seems to be the source that all US-based histories quote http://www.lacitybeat.com/cms/story/detail/?id=697&IssueNum=38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_Music_Festival - and UMF site, DEMF and WEMF and Shambhala http://www.pillreports.com/ Shamanchill (talk) 13:55, 4 May 2008 (UTC)


 * If you are going to attempt to address the sourcing issue it really would be a good idea to try and reference published sources, plenty has been written on the subject, web based content, while usefuul, is not as credible as published material. The following are all worth reviewing. Please don't cite unless you can provide page numbers.
 * Collin, M., Altered State: The Story of Ecstasy Culture and Acid House, Serpent's Tail, 1998 (ISBN 978-1852426040).
 * Reynolds, S., Energy Flash: a Journey Through Rave Music and Dance Culture, Pan Macmillan, 1998 [also published in abridged form as Generation Ecstasy: Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture, Routledge, New York 1999] (ISBN 978-0330350563).
 * Rietveld, H.C., This is Our House: House Music, Cultural Spaces and Technologies, Ashgate Publishing, Aldershot, 1998 (ISBN 978-1857422429).
 * St. John, G., Rave Culture and Religion, Routledge, 2003 (ISBN 978-0415314497).
 * Brewster B. & Broughton F., Last Night a DJ Saved My Life: The History of the Disc Jockey, Avalon Travel Publishing, 2006, (ISBN 978-0802136886).


 * Semitransgenic (talk) 10:20, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Anonymous: -Clean it up. Don't forget the New-Rave thing, it just doens't make any sence. Ravers on acid house, happy hardcore and what not,... listening to SHITDISCO? Won't happen.


 * This article is so messed up you can't even follow it.Dumaka (talk) 18:48, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

There is unfortunately very little written about the rave scene when compared to its cultural impact, hence, why there is so little sourcing. Most of what went on was word of mouth, or contained on message boards that have long since shut down. The best sources of information on the topic of rave are from the people that were and who experienced it and those that put on the parties themselves. There are also massive regional differences in rave, hence, why the confusion and discrepency. It would almost be better off splitting up the topic by geographical sections. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.234.247.208 (talk) 02:34, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

ENOUGH ALREADY! Fix this page!!
I'm going through here because I wanted some more information on the early-90's rave scene in the US (where, yes UKers, it is STILL called a Rave sometimes...) and I was completely stunned by the unbelievable sloppiness of this whole article. It is truly astonishing to me that this article has continued to exist in this state for so long. I have been editing Wikipedia articles for years and I take pride in this site and the usually well-written, neutral, and VERIFIABLE way it presents us with information. This article is a shame to the site, to the scene, and to a global community editing for so long.

I'm closing in on my 30's now and I was very heavily into the U.S. rave scene for several years in my early 20's, I have done plenty of things that would be considered "illegal" or "morally reprehensible" and I've done things I'm not too proud of. While I've personally moved on from that point in my life, I have no resentment and harbor no judgment for the people still in this phase of theirs. So this is NOT about me casting down my opinions onto a pseudo-culture or wanting a massive restructuring because I in any way disapprove of the concepts behind this article...it's a purely journalistic motive. This is too embarrassingly shitty of an article the way it is.

People have been calling for rewrites for four years now and the article has been tagged numerous times for references that never get added. While lots of people have listed some great ideas for reworks on this talk page, no one is putting their ideas into action. It's been mentioned many times that the article gives an unfair view of rave with it's unnecessary drug references and while that's true, I think the article as a whole says much more about ravers than the actual claims. At this point, it honestly looks like kids are coming home all drugged up from a party and saying to their friends, "You know what would totally kick ass? If we add stuff abut tonight's party to that wiki article...who's with me??" For god's sake, there's even an entire paragraph without capitalization!

I've been watching this page and thinking about a solution and I can only come up with one: DELETE THE WHOLE THING AND START FROM SCRATCH! I also strongly suggest we semi-protect this page to prevent edits and revert wars with IP users and newbies. It might also slow down any more WUI (writing under the influence.)But, I seriously do not see any possible way to salvage this article with it's current content. If the page is deleted, it should immediately be replaced with a stub packed with references for future editors to build on. I think that will be the key to a stronger page: verification. This article is wrought with mentions of rave practices that are specific to only one geographical location and that needs to stop. Wikipedia is meant to be a global resource, not a message board. No disrespect, but just because the kids like to dip their glowsticks in Vick's Vap-o-rub and suck on them like pacifiers between the hours of midnight and 3:00am at the raves you attend in Hobobumpkin, MO doesn't mean that represents a worldwide view of rave behavior or is notable enough to include in an encyclopedia article about an entire sub-culture. I am, of course, planning to do a bit of feeling-out and I'll go through the proper channels to nominate this AfD before touching anything and sometime in the next 24 hours I'll repost this on the cleanup taskforce page (that, I was for some reason, completely unable to set up an internal link to) and the AfD page. I not only welcome, but require your opinions or comments on this motion. Please take this in the spirit in which it was intended...I only have the integrity of Wikipedia in mind. --ocrasaroon (talk) 06:13, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I hardily agree, the specific geographical references are vague and useless as far as the goal of an encyclopedia entree and the drug use should simply have a seperate subsection with links from the drugs pages themselves, that isnt a defining factor and it never has been, to seperate the two would probably be like making coffee with decaf (that is to say, the vibe feel and life of the scene as a whole is INTERTWINED BUT NOT DEPENDENT on the drug use), i throw edm barbeques for me and my buddies all the time and no one does drugs at all, ive been to small warehouse parties where sobriety actually reined supreme. Delete it, put in the stubs and we can go from there. Schulte123 (talk) 13:30, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I disagree, geographical references are not vague at all, it's wrong to simply classify RAVE under a "one size fits all" banner because what defined RAVE changed so much from place to place. It's like writing an article on relgion and then bundling all religion under one heading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.234.247.208 (talk) 02:42, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the whole page needs sorting out. Especially difficult to understand is the "Hippies of a New Era" section. Many words are missed out, misused and misplaced, and there are numerous spelling, punctuation, spacing and grammatical mistakes. The author's ability to write English is even more limited than his/her ability to speak it. Without prior knowledge of the subject, it is hard to make sense of much of the article.Oniscoid (talk) 17:23, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

The drug use section needs revision
"In 2003, the RAVE Act essentially ended raves in the US by associating them to MDMA..."

This statement is inaccurate. I attended raves in New Orleans, Louisiana, from 2003 to 2006, and raves are currently ongoing in Austin, Texas, as of 2009.

Also, the Ultra Music Festival in Miami and Electric Daisy Carnival in southern California, which are still held annually, should qualify as raves.

Finally, the RAVE Act was initially proposed, but the Illicit Drug Anti-Proliferation was passed.

Perhaps a better wording would point out that the 2003 legislation has reduced or curtailed the frequency of raves in the United States.

68.63.209.192 (talk) 03:50, 14 May 2009 (UTC)StillRavingintheUS

Vandals who know how to use macros
Someone switched all instances of "rave" to "rape". I will fix it, but this is just a warning to anyone actually still watching this article that someone may vandalize it again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.201.150.82 (talk) 02:37, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

The Factory
I noticed that there is no mention of Andy Warhol's Factory in the United States section. I mean, didn't he have parties there with live music, heavy psychedelic drug use and orgies like every night from the 60's to the 70's?? Does this deserve a little mention? Maybe a little one? I dunno.

No, Andy Warhol's "Factory" does not deserve mention in this article as far as I am concerned. The United States rave scene in the early 1990's mostly had DJ's and not live music, the drugs were not all the same, and there were no orgies as far as I can attest. Kepiblanc (talk) 01:42, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Removed content
Per suggestions above I have removed the following content as it was excessive in length and largely unreferenced. Here it is in case anyone can make use of some of it to improve the article.

Hippies of a New Era
American ravers, following their early UK & European counterparts, have been compared to both the hippies of the 1960s and the new wavers of the 1980s, due to their interest in non-violence and music.

In the 1990s, one of the most influential Rave organisers / promoters in America was San Diego's G.U.N. ,Global Underworld Network known as Nicholas Luckinbill and Branden Powers. They were made famous for organising and throwing the internationally known OPIUM and NARNIA raves that reached in size of 60,000 plus people in attendance, a feat unheard of at that time. Narnia, which would become famous for a morning hand holding circle of unity, was featured on MTV and twice in LIFE magazine being honored with Event of the Year in 1995. Narnia quickly became known as the woodstock of Generation X. These festivals were mostly held on Indian Reservations and Ski Resorts during the Summer months, and were headlined by well known DJs such as Doc Martin, Dimitri of Dee-lite, Afrika Islam and the Hardkiss brothers from San Francisco. They also featured exceptional local San Diego DJ's including Jon Bishop, Steve Pagan, Alien Tom, Jeff Skot and Mark E. Quark. Global Underworld's events were the first prop heavy, themed parties in America. Global Underworld Network were also the first production company to throw raves within Mexico, thus launching the entire rave culture movement within South America as well. The iconic fairy and pixie craze with, ravers getting fairy tattoos and wearing wings to parties, all started from an image of a winged fairy on the first Narnia flyer. The Crystal Method played their first out of town show for Global Underworld's Universary event. Fearing reprisals from the police Global Underworld Network advertised the event as "A thousand Points of Light" referring to the power of healing crystals and not the obvious drug reference of the Crystal Methods name, a fact that tickled the upcoming artist so much they would refer to it years later in their biography. The Chemical Brothers were also in awe of Nicholas and Branden's Global Underworld headquarters in downtown San Diego, a multi-story building of the arts much like Warhol's factory. In the headquarters, Global Underworld fed starving artists and provided space for all the arts. The Chemical Brothers played an intimate show at Global's offices in front of a few hundred lucky fans. In an interview with Virgin Airways, the Chemical Brothers referred to Global Underworld as a cult with cult-like followers, a fact that wasn't too far from the truth. Nicholas Luckinbill, step grandson of the late Lucille Ball, and Branden Powers were the Tim Leary and Ken Keseys of the rave generation and were instrumental in creating their political movement called RTD or RIGHT TO DANCE. RTD was a non-violent protest held in San Diego, and later in Los Angeles, on the steps of the cities' administrators, proving that rave was about, peace, love, unity, and respect, and was not a dirty word. These protests by Global Underworld helped lay the foundation for future growth within the rave scene. In contrast to many other "youth cultures," older people are often active members of the U.S. scene and are well represented at events. Certain facets of dance music culture across the world are also welcoming to the older generation (especially the free party, squat party, and gay scenes); however, rave and club culture remains on the whole very much a youth-driven movement in terms of its core fan base. Although rave parties are commonly associated with illegal activities (e.g. drug use), it should be noted that raves themselves are often legal gatherings.

Northern California scene
In late 80s and early 90s, there was a boom in rave culture in the Bay Area. At first, small underground parties sprung up all over the SOMA district in vacant warehouses, loft spaces, and clubs like DV8 and 1015 Folsom, and basement of Jessie Street that had permits to run to 6am as long as no alcohol was served. The zero alcohol rule fuelled the ecstasy-driven parties to a much larger crowd, and soon followed were the first large scale raves. Every weekend a few hundred revellers would show up at venues like the Townsend warehouse, the King Street garage, and other mid-size warehouses located in the SOMA and South San Francisco area.

Rave crews started to become famous not only for their quality of music and the smoothness of the parties thrown but also for the "vibe". Crews grew to legendary status at this time: "the Gathering", "Toontown', "Wicked", "Rave Called Sharon", "the Church" and "Osmosis". Small underground raves were just starting out and expanding beyond SF to include the east bay, the south bay area including San Jose, Santa Clara, and Santa Cruz beaches (where the notorious "full moon raves" took place at Bonny Dune beach every month).

In late 1991 raves started to explode across northern California, and cities like Sacramento, Oakland, Silicon Valley were taking off every weekend. This proved to be the turning point in northern California's rave history. No longer were raves a secret, where one had to know the right people to gain access to map points. Now rave flyers were to be found up and down the Haight Street at stores like Anubis Warpus, Amoeba clothes, Behind The Post Office, and newly opened Housewares. Raves were exploding at an enormous rate and no longer were hundreds of revellers heading out, now there were thousands of ravers living for every weekend. The second generation of raves were just starting to be realised.

Toontown's NYE 91 rave, which took place in the basement of the Fashion Center in SF was the first "true" massive in the bay area. Over 8,000 people helped welcome in the new year and at the same time put SF as a must visit city for the burgeoning world wide rave scene. Similarly, a year later, "The Gathering", held New Year's Eve of 1992 in Vallejo, had over 12,000 people in attendance. The massive parties were taking place every weekend now from such disparate locations as outdoor fields to aeroplane hangers and hilltops that surround the valley.

San Francisco has long been a Mecca for ravers from all over the world and true to form a lot of the early promoters and DJs were from the UK and Europe. For almost ten years after the initial raves took place, one could find up to 2 to 4 parties happening a weekend and sometimes on the same night. There was no curfew in place, which allowed the SF scene to explode by the late 1990s when venues would have up to 20,000 people every weekend; "Homebase", and "85th & Baldwin" were the largest venues to be used in the Bay Area. Many amazing venues were used by crews that held clout or members that were tied to the city or knew the appropriate ways to navigate the permit maze. Thus, in the late 1990s some of the most memorable raves took place in locations such as the SOMA art museum, "Where the Wild Things Are" museum on top of the Sony Metreon, and in the venerable Maritime hall that was used for many parties from 1998–2002. Some old locations appeared again brand new, such as the concourse that saw thousands of ravers in 1992, now saw the same amount in late 1999. The Galleria that once held a "concert" in November 1993 with artists such as Moby, Aphex Twin, Orbital, Space Time Continuum, was now used for a few one-off events that utilized all five floors of the building with a different music style on each floor

The mid-part of the 1990s saw a general loss of the first generation of ravers, causing the scene to take a short dive. In this time, however, a new West coast sound was formed and developed. Venues and parties such as Frequency 8, Silver Pearl, Zodiac, ASR, MegaBuzz among many others started to fuse the rave sound from hardcore trax with the more melodic pace of house. West coast funky break-beat was born from this and stormed the dance scene. By the end of 1994 all the people that had left a gap in the rave scene in 1993 were long forgotten as twice as many people now found the new sounds completely and utterly funky. The LA Scene had promoters such as Vince Bannon and Phil Blaine throw gigs for electronic acts like 808 State, Aphex Twin, Prodigy, and Massive Attack to name a few.

This time period saw the rise of the many facets of EDM. Now all jungle raves, or cybertrance, or Breakbeat, or just good house could be enjoyed by anyone willing to go out to any of these parties. Gone were the days of a basement, and red light and a feeling. Now one could pick an upscale club, or a warehouse, or illegal outdoors as many crews sprung forward and blossomed. Promoters started to take notice and put together the massives of the late 90's with many music forms under one roof for 12 hour events. It was not unheard of for almost 20,000 people to pack Homebase, or 85th & Baldwin for a nite of eternal dancing. SF was now a fabled and much talked about destination around the states, if not the world. DJs from all corners of the globe played in San Francisco.

The year 2000 saw the demise of massive raves as curfews were placed on permits handed out to promoters throwing parties. Instead of all night and into the next day, parties now had to end at 2 a.m. Two of the largest venues closed down soon after, and there wasn't enough momentum to sustain parties that catered to tens of thousands of people. As if a nail was drove into the coffin of the SF rave scene, the Homebase warehouse that held parties from 96-00 burned down to the ground in a spectacular 6 alarm fire in 04. Smaller, intimate venues continued just like they had from the start and underground raves became the norm in the years after the tech boom of the 1990s.

While San Francisco's crowd attendance and variety of DJs might have peaked, it still maintains a much smaller but dedicated cadre of various crews, DJs, promoters and producers. Every weekend, many events are still dedicated to the various forms of electronic music across the greater Bay Area.

Through the mid 90's and into the 00's the city of Seattle also shared in the tradition of West Coast rave culture. Though a smaller scene compared to San Francisco, Seattle also had many different rave crews, promoters, DJs, and fans. Candy raver style, friendship and culture became particularly popular in the West Coast rave scene, both in Seattle and San Francisco. At the peak of West Coast rave, candy raver, and massive rave popularity (1996–1999), it was common to meet groups of ravers, promoters, and DJs who frequently traveled between Seattle and San Francisco, which spread the overall sense of West Coast rave culture and the phenomenon of West Coast "massives".

Mid-west scene
Grave Rave, on 11 October 1992 marked the first major party crack down in the mid-west, when 973 people were arrested for attending a party at a warehouse in Milwaukee's Third Ward. Following the crackdown, most raves were promoted via fliers and distributed a phone number with an informational voice message. On the day of the party, the message changed to give the location of the map point. Upon showing up at the map point, ravers were able to purchase a map and ticket to the party. Midwest parties were commonly held at barns, camp grounds, and warehouses.

In 1995 the Detroit Police Department began sending the gang squad in to raid the parties with an unnecessary level of violence. Map points were moved, and shuttling in from remote parking lots didn't stop them. The major destructive force wasn't the police though, but the movement into legal clubs where adding alcohol changed the entire attitude and vibe of the community.

U.S. rave culture on the North-east Coast and Midwest in the 90s was unique in that the majority of ravers were young (under 25), and rejected the alcohol- and sex-based mainstream culture of clubs and bars.

By staging and attending raves in unlikely and non-traditional places (either legally or not), North-east Coast U.S. ravers avoided the prevalent alcohol- and sex-based culture that used to be predominant.

There is a common conception among some parts of the country, especially the North-east, that raves were a 1990s fad, with the common quip "People still go to raves?" The popularity of rave music and the culture of it continues to grow, especially in the Pacific Northwest, North-eastern United States and in places like Southern Florida and Mendota Heights. Rave parties have seen a resurgence in recent years, specifically in the Midwest in cities like Chicago, possibly coinciding with the recent rise in popularity of techno and electronic dance music and the Midwest's history with house and techno music. Social networking sites are now utilized often, as opposed to paper invitations, to alert rave-goers to secret party venues, times, and entry fees. Most raves now embrace alcohol more than they have in the past, offering open bars to attendees. The party culture continues to be dominated by youth however, as most ravers are usually college students under 21, who cannot attend bars or commercialized clubs due to the 21 drinking age.

No longer considering itself as a "rave" scene, unless using the term "rave" in a sarcastic, yet, nostalgic way, Detroit has a very committed fan base for all-night Techno events, better known as "parties." The history of Techno music's origins and connotations still linger in Detroit and continue to inspire die-hard devotees who produce and progress the ideals of Techno and House gatherings under underground circumstances and production teams which are unique to Detroit. The Detroit Electronic Music Festival (DEMF) is an opportunity for visiting Techno tourists to experience the vibe of Detroit "parties," but the Detroit "party" scene continues year round for the locals who have, in many cases, been raised in the spirit and tradition of the Detroit Techno scene, usually for ten years or more.

Quebec
Certain "raves", such as the Montreal Black and Blue even attract government funding from all levels of government; municipal, provincial and federal, as they are deemed to be cultural events. On 10 February 2007 indie rap duo Grand Buffet stated they had played a rave in Montreal. The Bal en Blanc is another event in Montreal that attracts a wide variety of attendees from a wide demographic spectrum. These events have often been hailed as the biggest parties in the world, attracting more than 16,000 at a time. They are often held in government-run facilities such as the Montreal Olympic Stadium and the Montreal Convention Centre.

Montreal also welcomes more underground/non-commercial raves, which are considered by ravers to be "true" raves as they are underground, small (between 200 to 800 people) and the venue is frequently announced only 24-48 hours in advance through "info-lines". Those underground parties were dominating until around 1996 when bigger parties began such as "Black & Blue" which brought a more diverse crowd than just ravers, but also the common citizen which was not well-received as the rave community had a specific taste in fashion, music and an associated lifestyle. This commercialization is generally seen as a negative effect of raves coming into popular culture.

Candy ravers are a common sight at Montreal parties, and usually dress up in wild clothes consisting of bright colours and fluffy leg warmers on females and ‘phat’ (excessively flared) pants for men. They are also major users of glow sticks and are regarded as having started the Chupa Chup lollipop phenomenon. These two items represent what Hebdige refers to as the magical appropriation of “humble objects” [in Brookman, 1998:51] that express resistance in a form of code, and act to reinforce the ‘subordinate’ status of the group. There is however a practical aspect to the use of Chupa Chups at raves, as they can be used to prevent involuntary teeth grinding as a side effect of ecstasy use.

Ontario
In Toronto, raves remain more underground and only events catering to the gay community attract more mainstream attention. However, this wasn't always the case. During the late 90s and early 2000s, the Toronto rave scene was one of the largest in the world attracting international talent and worldwide attention. Many events were held at the Better Living Centre at the Canadian National Exhibition grounds and at the International Centre near Toronto's airport. These events often attracted upwards of 20,000 people and would happen almost every weekend. Many other smaller events also happened every weekend along with the bigger events.

The question as to the first rave in Toronto has been debated for years depending on varying definitions of the term. However, in 1991 Exodus Productions was the first official rave organization in Toronto and one of the first in North America. Exodus threw numerous events at 318 Richmond Street West at a warehouse venue known as 23 Hop. Among the larger promoters that followed were entities such as Chemistry, Pleasure Force, Nitrous, Delirium, Destiny, Atlantis, Syrous, Dose, Better Days, and Citrus; smaller promoters included Sykosis, Infinity, Transcendence, Alien Visitation, and others.

As the decade drew to a close, Toronto's rave scene began to suffer as increased scrutiny from public officials and the local media began to exert pressure on the scene as a result of the high profile drug death of Allen Ho at a rave in an underground parking garage in 1999. This made throwing large events in Toronto more difficult. Eventually, almost all the major rave promoters in Toronto quit throwing events with the exception of a few including Destiny productions and Hullabaloo productions, both of which continue today in some form.

Since then, Toronto has seen a rebirth in the popularity of dance music but in a different form than in the past. Most Rave type events happen inside clubs such as The Guvernment, The Docks and the Big Bop. These venues still attract international talent each week and can still draw thousands of attendees for the larger events. These venues cater to Toronto's dance scene, which is more splintered than it once was, with events that specialise in dance music sub genres such as Jungle, Breaks, Happy Hardcore, Techno and Trance. Sometimes events will cater to multiple genres such as Destiny productions which specialises in Jungle and Trance. Destiny is also known for hosting the "World Electronic Music Festival" that occurs in southern Ontario annually, in mid summer, which consists of a 3 day and 2 night camp-out style, multi-stage electronic music festival. It attracts large numbers of people from Canada as well as other countries such as the United States and UK. There is also an underground Freetekno scene in Toronto and Montreal which organises free events in obscure locations in Ontario and Quebec.

British Columbia
In Vancouver and the British Columbia area raves tend to be slightly more mainstream than in Toronto, but less so than in Montreal.

Vancouver has a long tradition of outdoor raves that occur in the picturesque areas surrounding the city. The most common place for such parties is Chilliwack, about an hour's drive outside of Vancouver, and particularly the Popkum native reserve. One of the most enduring and notorious of these parties was the Apex Project, which took place yearly in August for nearly a decade. The first Apex project occurred on Popkum reserve in 1998, attracting a couple thousand revellers. It was a free party hosted by a selection of different local events promoters who had agreed to collaborate for this one event. The Apex Project featured several sound stages and grew exponentially in the years immediately following the first event, but is unfortunately now defunct. Other major annual outdoor parties from this era included Magic Mountain, Summer Love, and Simple.

During 1998 - 2000, raves in Vancouver became increasingly popular and by the end of the 90's it was not uncommon for 4 or 5 different raves to occur in and around Vancouver every weekend, particularly in the summer months. Candy kids were a common site on Vancouver's main drag of Granville Street and stacks of rave fliers adorned nearly every clothing and music store in the area. During the 2000s, Vancouver's rave scene went into decline as attendance numbers dropped and the number of weekly parties withered.

The Kootenays, in Interior British Columbia also had a thriving scene during the late 1990's to early 2000's. The Kootenay scene centered around Nelson, BC, and for a time there was a Kootenay party almost every other weekend, held at local halls and outdoors. With a thriving arts community, and a small army of local DJs, Nelson was able to build and sustain it's own little scene. By 2005-2006, the small community halls refused to rent to all night functions, while small, outdoor events still happen periodically in the summer. However, there is still one true staple of Kootenay rave culture that is going strong. In 1998, a small group of people who had been throwing parties in the area conceived of Shambhala Music Festival. 2010 will mark Shambhala's 13th year. Because of Shambhala, and the world class DJs who come to the festival and fall in love with the area, Nelson has managed to maintain a thriving electronic music scene throughout the years, despite the decline in actual raves, with major headliners playing at the local nightclubs - making Nelson likely the smallest city in Canada with an electronic music scene.

There is also a well established and ever changing rave scene on Vancouver Island spawning many DJ's, Producers and Performers. The Island presents a beautiful isolated landscape, perfectly suited for raves.

Nova Scotia
In Nova Scotia raves started back in 1994 in the city of Halifax.

By 1998 they had blown up into major events taking place every Friday and Saturday at venues such as the Elegant Dump, the Playhouse (later renamed the Underground) and the Electropolis Motion Picture Studios, these events would draw thousands in attendance and would feature world class techno and trance artists.

Massive raves also took place in arenas owned by the city of Halifax until September 11, 1999 when Jamie Brinton passed away at Liquid Groove's Temptation rave featuring Christopher Lawrence at the exhibition park arena, this causing the city to pull all venues from promoters and forcing the scene to move into night clubs.

Nova Scotia is also known for producing some of the best outdoor events in the country, the best known of them all would be the Evolve Festival which takes place every summer in Antigonish and draws five to seven thousand people each year.

-- Pontificalibus (talk) 20:17, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

The problem with removing all of this content is it reads like the only rave scene in the early 90's existed in San Diego and San Francisco. It is an very large amount of content for two micro-scenes with zero mention of any other city in the US. Having at least a paragraph with information on the East Coast and Midwest seems like a no-brainer. At the very least, any article describing the North American rave scene that doesn't mention the Generator parties that Frankie Bones threw in 1991 which led to the Storm Raves in 1992 should be labeled suspect. I recommend condensing the San Diego and San Francisco content to one to two paragraphs and then add at least one paragraph for the locations you removed. I'd be happy to handle myself. Phixed (talk) 19:40, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

The history of P.L.U.R.
It just so happens that a Los Angeles 18th Street gang member (now ex-gang member) named Shilo Comito coined that phrase in the early 90's while Candyflipping and doing nitrous oxide. He used to go by the "rave nickname" Kid Nitrous the Tankster Gangster, and had the symbol for nitrous oxide (N2O) tattooed on the leftside of his neck surrounded by a rave scene ( Alien DJ on the turntables with a nitrous mask on and a little Alien raver chick with pigtails licking a lollipop while sitting on a nitrous tank). He was affiliated with a lot of the companies and DJ's at the time from the So. Cal. area (eg. Family tribe, Moontribe, People Who Love You, Insomniac,Grooveriders, Dr. Freeclouds Mixing Lab,Theo,Ron D Core,Dj Trance (Jason Blakemore),Simply Jeff,Oscar Da Grouch,Felix Da Cat, and MANY MORE!)He is been in many rave documentaries, and on the FOX News special "Nitrous Crazy" in 1997 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.166.166.47 (talk) 07:23, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Center Drug Rehab Drug Rehab Center - Alcohol and Drug Rehab Programs - Drug and Alcohol Treatment Centers - SouthCoast Recovery offers effective and affordable alchoholism and drug rehab, as well as, specialized treatment programs at our Centers in California.

London raves
I'm removing the line that Manchester had acid house parties BEFORE London which is always going to remain unsourced as its complete rubbish. As London had an unsuccessful attempt at one as early as 1985 (!)(The Project, Streatham) with very little house music or sctasy around so it was always going to fail. And then Shoom from September 1987 as well as warehouse parties stretching back years before then where were these Manchester parties that were before London. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.187.78 (talk) 08:11, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

PMA references in the Ecstasy page
I find it quite silly that nearly half of what is written in the "Ecstasy" section is devoted to PMA. It has been an exceedingly rare occurrence throughout history (last reports happened in 2007). Writing about it in the article is both misleading (either on purpose or not) and either un-objective or uninformed. In either way, Wikipedia is supposed to be an objective encyclopedia with TRUE and VERIFIED UNBIASED content. This one paragraph makes me doubt that highly. For those who don't believe me, here are some citations: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/pma/pma.shtml. Or just google "PMA deaths" for crying out loud.


 * I have already erased the paragraph before from a different computer but was very quickly undone. I wish that anyone who puts it back up clarifies his cause and add a reference. 84.111.208.241 Matt the Objective (talk) 11:35, 15 March 2012 (UTC)Matt
 * I agree it should be removed as it has nothing whatever to with Rave. We need a summary of Ecstasy in the Ecstasy section, not a summary of para-Methoxyamphetamine. --Pontificalibus (talk) 07:17, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Re-write of the Ecstasy section
While I find the section to be sufficiently objective, I see it as mostly unnecessary. As a user and raver myself, I'm quite aware of the strong link between MDMA and the rave culture. I think it should have a much larger section dedicated to the history of X-Rave relation and how it affects it, rather than merely attributing specific cases of deaths. MDMA has plenty of sides (personally I believe more positive sides, but that's just my opinion). On the other hand, I'm not an expert and though I'll begin re-writing it and adding references I highly recommend for a professional to edit it (I'm also not a native English speaker but that's minor).

I'd be glad for individuals with different opinions to respond to me. --Matt the Objective (talk) 12:01, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree the article needs more about the relationship between ecstasy and rave. Right now it has too much detail on regional differences. --Pontificalibus (talk) 12:10, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * none of the following relevant titles have seen any representation, so i'm not sure how we can begin to discuss ecstasy usage in the context of rave culture unless we cite such sources:
 * Ecstasy and the rise of the chemical generation
 * Clubbing: dancing, ecstasy and vitality
 * Generation ecstasy: into the world of techno and rave culture
 * Altered State: The Story of Ecstasy Culture and Acid House
 * Rave culture and religion
 * Pursuit of ecstasy: the MDMA experience
 * Youth, Drugs, and Nightlife
 * -- Semitransgenic talk. 12:38, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

It should be pointed out that "PLUR" is largely an American thing, much like the whole "Kandi" phenomenon. Neither are much in evidence in Europe, and especially not in the UK. Nick Cooper (talk) 13:50, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Term used during 70s
The term was used in Britain during the 70s, and not as a quaint or ironic term in a phrase.

I have just watched a 1973 top of the pops hosted by Kenny Everett who uses the term rave in its 80s sense - a party of dance music.

In the article it states that the term was used only ironically or as a quaint reference - something that needs further investigation. Chaosdruid (talk) 04:32, 4 October 2012 (UTC)