Talk:Ravens of the Tower of London

Comments

 * The legend of Bendigeidfran omits the fact that his name means Blessed Raven. Without this fact the inclusion of the legend makes no sense to the reader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.150.177.249 (talk) 14:00, 29 October 2013 (UTC)


 * The opening sentence of the legends section makes it sound as if ravens were kept at the Tower since "ancient time" (sic) rather than just happened to live in the area. It's a while since I was reading about the Tower of London and don't have the relevant sources to hand at this moment, but I thought that ravens were included as omens of death rather than meant literally.
 * I'd treat Younghusband's work cautiously, early histories of the Tower are notoriously unreliable and I'd be more inclined to look at the work of Sax. I'd be curious to know if Younghusband is the first to mention ravens at the executions of Anne Boleyn and Lady Jane Grey.
 * "Legend attributes the start of the tradition of keeping captive ravens in the Tower of London to Charles II (reigned 1660–1685) and his royal astronomer John Flamsteed, although there are two versions of the legend that differ in their specific details.": this needs a reference.
 * Ref 6: Younghusband's A Short History of the Tower of London is not from 2008, the Google books version is a reprint. When was it first published?
 * When did the incident with "James Crow" and "Edgar Sopper" happen?
 * The article has a section on possible 19th-century origin of the legend, and yet this is not represented in the lead.
 * Reference 5 need more information such as publisher and access date.
 * It's interesting that Parnell suggests that the earliest ravens may have been kept as pets by the Yeoman Warders[ http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/nov/15/britishidentity.artsandhumanities]; this probably should be mentioned too.
 * Although generally less detailed than this article, Cultural depictions of ravens may contain a couple of things worth looking into, for example an incident during the Second World War when there were no ravens at the Tower is referenced to Boria Sax. It may also be worth adding a bit more on the 19th century morbid fascination with the Tower's dark side and how that may have influenced the legends. Nev1 (talk) 13:09, 4 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the comments, Nev1.
 * I added the info you required to the lead.
 * Actually the story about Lady Jane Grey is referenced to Sax, and I was not able to find it in any other place. I will continue working on your suggestions and post my progress to the talk page.--Mbz1 (talk) 15:41, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The incident with "James Crow" and "Edgar Sopper" happen in 1927, but so far I was not able to find a RS to use as a reference. --Mbz1 (talk) 16:24, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Younghusband's work was treated cautiously. I provided an exact quote from his book in the section about legends.--Mbz1 (talk) 17:57, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I added info about ravens as pets of the staff as you suggested.--Mbz1 (talk) 18:08, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

When did it all start?
"Wild ravens are popularly thought to have inhabited the Tower for many centuries, the White Tower having been built in 1078–1097."

The above sentence is problematic as it insinuates there has always been a link between the Tower of London and ravens. A reference has been added supporting the construction date of the White Tower, but that's not what is being disputed (although come to mention it, it's not certain when it was completed so the date range shouldn't be giving the impression of being absolute; cf. Allen Brown & Curnow 1984, p. 12). So far, the earliest mention of ravens associated with the Tower in the article is in the 16th century. I think the way round this problem would be to replace the sentence with something along the lines of "Ravens are native to London, and the first recorded occurrence of them being associated with the Tower is xyz". Nev1 (talk) 14:10, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I removed both the sentence and the reference.--Mbz1 (talk) 16:25, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I added information about the current distribution of wild ravens in the British Isles. Invertzoo (talk) 22:04, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Should this be added to the article?
I found an interesting information of what the ravens eat:"As regards food, I buy fresh meat from Smithfield – liver, lamb, beef, chicken. And occasionally when I’m at my own place in Suffolk someone will give me some rabbit that’s been killed. If I see roadkill on the road, and it’s not been too badly mangled, I normally put it in a black bag and bring it back here. I give them biscuits as well, soaked in blood from the meat that I buy. And in winter I get them capsules of cod liver oil. I know they’re getting as much vitamins and oil as they possibly can. That’s why they look so healthy" Should this info be added to the article, and, if yes, to what section?--Mbz1 (talk) 05:09, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

"Smell of corpses"
"Wild ravens are thought to have inhabited the Tower for many centuries, supposedly first attracted there by the smell of the corpses of the executed enemies of the Crown"; I appreciate it's cited, but this is very dubious. London's main execution site was at Tyburn; there were only 112 executions at Tower Hill (plus a further seven in the Tower itself) during the 400+ years it served as an execution site. – iridescent 2  17:07, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, this info is added to section "Legends" because it is one of the those info that are hard to verify. On the other hand wild ravens are not rare birds. They inhabit lots of cities around the world and spread evenly around the cities. I believe there is a good possibility there were ravens in the Tower since ancient time. Were there any more ravens because of the executions? Who knows.--Mbz1 (talk) 23:01, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Ravens in the wild
IMO this section should be shortened significantly or even taken off the article altogether. There are mention about wild ravens in the lead and in section Legends. I will add a few more sentences to the legend section tomorrow and it should be enough IMO. If by tomorrow nobody will rise an objection I will take section "ravens in the wild" off the article. --Mbz1 (talk) 03:52, 7 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I thought the section about wild Ravens was useful and interesting background material that gave the article much more of a context. But I suppose it could be shortened. When I was a kid in London, at the Tower they told me that originally wild ravens lived at the Tower and then when the wild ones ceased to live there, the idea was that captive ones were better than nothing. And now that the populations of wild ones are spreading and increasing, if wild Ravens come back and nest again in Central London the Tower won't need the captive ones any more. I think this evening I can find a newspaper source that says the latter anyway. If you do want that section shortened, maybe you can let me shorten it? Also we can maybe see what other people think about the idea of eliminating it? Invertzoo (talk) 19:46, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course it is an interesting section, but IMO this section is undue weight. IMO wild ravens should be mentioned only as long as there's direct connection between those ravens and  the Tower. In the next few hours I am going to add  few more sentences about wild ravens to the section "legends" I guess. Of course we should wait for more opinions. I was going to remove the section only, if nobody minds, but if you do mind, let's wait. --Mbz1 (talk) 21:23, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I just now cut the wild raven section down a lot, renamed it, and re-positioned it at the end of the article. Hopefully that is a bit better? I also found a good ref to support the idea that wild ravens lived at the Tower in times gone by. Invertzoo (talk) 23:25, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I believe it is much better now. If the section is going to be in the end of the article, I would not mind, if you'd like to make it a little bit bigger. --Mbz1 (talk) 00:22, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I am glad you think it looks better. I just now found an abstract of a 2010 paper where Boria Sax suggests that a free-flying colony be tried at the Tower instead of a captive one; he feels that this would help generate more stories and legends. So I added that too, although I think I am not formatting the citations correctly? Sorry! I could perhaps at some point put back in a sentence about their size, their intelligence and the fact that they are the largest member of the crow family... But I could also leave it the way it is. I did find a couple of good "See also" articles to list. Oh and maybe at some point we can mention one of the stories that shows that they can learn to speak, to repeat phrases they have learned from the Ravenmaster. That's pretty cool too! Invertzoo (talk) 01:31, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You do not format references correctly, but it is probably OK. Looks like the article is more popular than I thought it will be, so we will not be able to keep references the right way anyway. I believe somebody has already mentioned they (ravens) could speak in connection to Putin's visit. Thanks for adding interesting info to the article.--Mbz1 (talk) 01:40, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

layout
IMO the section "History" and "Ravens at the Tower" should be switched places. I believe section "History" should be put right after the lead.--Mbz1 (talk) 04:28, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, done - let's see how it looks. Maias (talk) 04:49, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * What do you think? How it looks to you? Thanks.--Mbz1 (talk) 04:54, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I think either way is possible. Maybe a third opinion would be helpful. Maias (talk) 11:17, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Raven Picture
I have uploaded an alternative picture of tower of london ravens.

Does anyone think it is better than the current one the article uses?

Cj005257 (talk) 10:23, 15 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Although the ravens are clearer in the image on the right, there is nothing that links them to the Tower. With a blurry green background, they could be just about anywhere; to be fair, the image in the left doesn't really shout "this is the Tower of London" either. Nev1 (talk) 15:48, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Boria Sax
Although the IP gave no reason for this removal, I think it may be valid. I don't think Sax's suggestion that "instead of captive ravens, a group of free-flying ravens should be tried at the Tower" unless it can be demonstrated to have carried weight. Has it been seriously considered? If not, I think it's a piece of speculation and doesn't really enhance the article. Nev1 (talk) 00:37, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I reworked that part a little bit to make it clearer that this was just Sax's idea. If you would prefer to remove that paragraph altogether, go ahead. Invertzoo (talk) 12:04, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Is this an article about Ravens of the Tower of London or an article about Boria Sax (an apparently widely published but not especially noteworthy author)? The dude gets more props here than the queen... I am cutting this as it is irrelevant Silverwood (talk) 12:41, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

This page is still reading like an entry on Boria Sax. It needs to be investigated who is posting all this stuff: Boria Sax? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.88.166.205 (talk) 22:07, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Raven George
An interesting genetic link; Apparently Raven George, dismissed for eating TV aerials, turned out to be Georgina after being posted to the Welsh Mountain Zoo, and laying an egg, the product of which, Gwyllum, now serves at the Tower. http://www.hrp.org.uk/Resources/ravens_(new)_2.pdf 5.64.251.26 (talk) 16:52, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

1944 and the Blitz.
"The first reference to an early version of the legend that Britain will fall if the ravens leave the Tower comes from July, 1944, when ravens were being used as unofficial spotters for enemy bombs and planes during the Blitz."

According to the Wikipedia article on The Blitz, this bombing campaign lasted until May of 1941. I suggest that 'during the Blitz' be changed to 'during Woirld War II' or words to that effect.79.55.117.135 (talk) 16:30, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Name consistency
Sometimes the birds' individual names are in quotes, other times not. One or the other should be chosen for consistency. Although I personally prefer not using quotes, I don't want to change anything without a consensus. 2606:A000:1126:28D:5D06:FE8F:7BF9:F10B (talk) 20:40, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Ravens symbol of gens Valeria, behavior inherited from the past
The White Tower of London I know was built by William the Conqueror. I don't see how it relates to ravens and prophetic powers. The thesis that supports the Latin presence and the contribution of prosperity and civilization by the gens Valeria is instead much more documented through written documents and archaeological finds. Londinium was founded right where the city of London is and the Roman oppidum once stood where the tower is. Probably the Norman William wanted to build a tower, yes to control the surrounding area, but also as a form of affirmation on a powerful and legendary empire like the Roman one: what once belonged to the Romans today belonged to him. The gens Valeria must have left behind a well-being that they have never found again, so much so that the lack of that well-being has been associated with decadence. Ravens symbolize the prophetic abilities of Apollo and it is likely that they are the symbol of the gens Valeria who carried the cognomen Corvus or Corvinus from the day when after the victory brought by the raven who landed on his helmet and subsequently he was consul many times. 80.181.153.67 (talk) 00:06, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Shropshire (on the Welsh border), land of Corbet family
The Corbet family is an English family of Anglo-Norman extraction that became one of the most powerful and richest of the landed gentry in Shropshire.

Brân is the modern Welsh word for raven. May the legend of the Brân (King of the Britons) be related to the Corbet family??? The Corbet family appears to be Anglo-Norman. Maybe they were Bran's enemies? The Corbet family's protective ravens (perhaps of Latin origin) were used against that way? As to fight on equal terms (ravens against ravens). A sort of disarmament of the enemy.

Which work did the members of the Corbet family do? Were they the ancient guardians of the Tower of London? Why would a king of the Britons cut off an Irishman's head and then turn it towards France (where Normandy is)??? Was the Irishman a Norman? Why did William the Conqueror have the White Tower built?

They look like nonsense as they are written. They don't seem to be a valid reason to have ravens in the tower. Could you answer the questions by enriching the page and solving these puzzles??? 79.31.255.39 (talk) 02:25, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

The legend of the Brân (King of the Britons) and Matholwch connected with the construction of White Tower by William
Reading about the legend, we learn that the Tower of London was built under the White Tower. It was built from the end of 1066 as part of the Norman conquest of England. The White Tower, which gives the whole castle its name, was built by William the Conqueror in 1078, and was a symbol of the order on London by the new rulers. It was supposedly built where Bran's talking head was buried. For reasons of logic, if Bran's head was buried in the direction of France, where there was Normanidia (land of the Normans), it was probably placed there against the Normans. Probably William's construction on the white hill is due both to strategic reasons and to the claim of having conquered what was previously Bran's.

It is not clear what the legend of Bran has to do with the ravens of the Tower. The only thing is the meaning of the name Bran in Welsh (raven). Indeed there is a family of Norman origin: Corbet. The Corbet family had the main estates on the Welsh border, and this does not make it clear whether it has anything to do with Bran or perhaps with the later introduction of ravens to the tower (the White Tower was built by William).

Another curious thing is the common veneration for ravens, both by the Italian family of Roccascalegna (Corvo) and at the Tower of London. The Italian family bears an imperial raven (corvus corax) on its coat of arms and has a crest like that of the Aragon family (an outgoing dragon - perhaps for accession to the order of the dragon together with the King of Spain). The curious thing is that England uses the flag of San Giorgio and that the Italian family adored this saint so much that they frequented an ancient church dedicated to San Giorgio in the city of Naples.

The question that arises is whether there were links between the Norman King William and the descendants of these Corbet (in England) and Corvo (in Italy) families. Had the Normans who conquered England mixed up with descendants of the Romans? Did the Normans set out to rebuild the old lost empire? 79.41.249.13 (talk) 17:45, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Names and Tags
Could their be a list of current Ravens' names plus which colour tag each raven has so people can identify and greet the ravens they meet if they visit the Tower? Lucas73 (talk) 07:19, 24 October 2023 (UTC)