Talk:Raymond Gravel

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Policy on placing a person in an LGBT category
Please see: Categorization/Ethnicity,_gender,_religion_and_sexuality, which states, "For a dead person, there must be a verified consensus of reliable published sources that the description is appropriate." None of the sources state that Gravel was LGBT. --PluniaZ (talk) 13:30, 27 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Firstly, please see WP:BRD, the procedure when an edit has been reverted is to discuss it, but not to change it again. ie the original text stays untill the matter is resolved.


 * Secondly, please read the first sentence of the article's second paragraph and the reference to it. He was openly gay. Or try a google search for "Raymond Gravel gay" to find a wealth of sources stating he was gay. Also from Categorization/Ethnicity,_gender,_religion_and_sexuality: Historically, LGBT people often did not come out in the way that they commonly do today, so a person's own self-identification is, in many cases, impossible to verify by the same standards that would be applicable to a contemporary BLP. Implying if a dead person self-identified as gay then the BLP provisions apply. --John B123 (talk) 17:10, 27 August 2019 (UTC)


 * John B123, none of the sources state that Gravel was gay. They state that he worked in gay bars and as a male escort.  That does not make someone gay.  A person can only be placed in the LGBT category if (1) they have self-identified as LGBT or (2) there is consensus among historians that the person was LGBT.  Gravel never self-identified as LGBT.  There is no consensus among historians that he was LGBT.  Given that he is recently deceased and no reliable secondary source affirmatively states that he was LGBT, or that he ever identified as LGBT, the LGBT category should be promptly removed, unless you can find and quote a source that unambiguously affirms that he was LGBT. --PluniaZ (talk) 17:36, 27 August 2019 (UTC)


 * As I said, try a google search       How many more do you need?--John B123 (talk) 18:05, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Your seventh link states, "A former male prostitute who went on to serve drinks in a Montreal leather bar before entering the priesthood, Gravel has been described as "openly gay" in press reports--although he told one newspaper recently he is not homosexual." None of the sources quote Gravel as stating that he identified as LGBT.  --PluniaZ (talk) 19:24, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Which is it, published sources as per your first post or self-identification as per your last post? --John B123 (talk) 20:20, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
 * WP:EGRS states, "For a dead person, there must be a verified consensus of reliable published sources that the description is appropriate." Since a source quotes Father Gravel as stating that he is not homosexual, there clearly is not a consensus that he was homosexual. Are you going to drop this or do I need to do an RfC? --PluniaZ (talk) 20:34, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Equally, in evidence presented to the Superior Court of Quebec, he stated in an interview that "I never had long relationships" when asked if working in a gay bar "give you the chance to make a boyfriend" Link. Consensus means a general agreement, it does not mean universally agreed, so one, possibly misinformed, alleged quote does not override the other sources, see WP:WEIGHT. --John B123 (talk) 21:25, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Gravel states that he is homosexual in this biography, so I concur with the use of the LGBT category. http://www.editions-libreexpression.com/ficheProduit.aspx?id=9782764810187 --PluniaZ (talk) 23:47, 27 August 2019 (UTC)