Talk:Razer (robot)

Tone
Hello. I've re-written the article to address the issue of the unsuitable tone or style. Shall I remove the "unsuitable tone or style" tag on the article now? Is it fixed now? Tell me as soon a possible. Thanks. 86.28.171.246 (talk) 14:16, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. Here is a sample, "Chaos 2 was eliminated horribly... immobilised as a result of a number of merciless attacks from Razer and 13 Black". These are biased against Chaos 2.EdGilmour (talk) 21:26, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * There's still a lot of 'fan fic' style writing in this article that would be more appropriate on a separate wiki (e.g., Robot Wars Wiki) than here. I fully intend to reduce down these unnecessarily "blow-by-blow" accounts over the next few days, with a single section titled "Combat history" or similar. This can be sub-divided into sections containing verifiable factual accounts for each series/event.
 * Should anyone feel this would be a negative change, perhaps you could respond to this message. This being Wikipedia you'd be well able to alter/correct my additions, but let's not start an edit war! ;-)
 * Best wishes, Countdown Crispy  talk contributions 08:02, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... sounds good to me! 86.28.171.246 (talk) 16:59, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I've now completely rewritten the match descriptions, but still reckon there's just too much there. Any suggestions as to how to 'simmer it down' a bit? My feeling is that it needs to be a lot more pithy. -- Countdown Crispy  talk contributions 16:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the edits Countdown.EdGilmour (talk) 18:42, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
 * By way of comparison, have a look at a partially complete combat history in table form. Any comments or criticisms? -- Countdown Crispy  ☎ ✎ 14:49, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry for being late! Yeah, it looks a bit better! But still, how would we be able to document Matilda's destruction if we implement this table? :) 86.28.171.246 (talk) 10:45, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

 * Moved as uncontroversial capitalisation fix by another editor. Station1 (talk) 07:43, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Razer (Robot) → — The bracketed disambiguation descriptions in article titles are usually in lower case. Making the small change from "Robot" to "robot" for this article would bring it in line with the rest of Wikipedia. Countdown Crispy talk contributions 14:23, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Refer to Village Pump - Pointless semantic suggestion better discussed at the village pump. Not worth wasting time over discussing here.--Lucy-marie (talk) 18:35, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I have requested a speedy move as it's pretty uncontroversial; forgive me not seeing before that this was the done thing. I certainly don't think putting this article in line with the rest of Wikipedia is "pointless". -- Countdown Crispy  talk contributions 20:01, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Its to small to warrent this whole section and it is better discussed where more people will care and that is at the Village pump.--Lucy-marie (talk) 20:08, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I couldn't disagree more. What is the purpose of an article talk page other than to talk about an article? To quote WP:TPG, "The purpose of a Wikipedia talk page... is to provide space for editors to discuss changes to its associated article or project page." No need to consult the pump - yet! -- Countdown Crispy  talk contributions 20:14, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The purpose of the talk page is to discuss the content of the article and not semantics over that standardisation of Wikipedia policy and the standardised implementation of Wikipedia policy. This is not content which relates to the article directly it is not even proposing changing the article name. It is only proposing that Wikipedia policy is implemented in a standardised interpretation. Discussions on Wikipedia policy and its implementation do not belong on article talk pages.--Lucy-marie (talk) 20:47, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I think we're talking cross-purposes here. I had no idea I was being controversial! At any rate, the alteration has been made. -- Countdown Crispy  talk contributions 08:02, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Images
I've just removed the supposedly fair use image of Razer from the article. Firstly, its fair use rationale is rather flawed - if needs be I will improve it in due course. However, I am going to contact Ian Lewis of Team Razer and politely ask if he has an image we could use under CC-BY-SA or a similar free licence. -- Countdown Crispy  talk contributions 18:18, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Quality-scale
Ok, since CountdownCrispy is re-writing the WHOLE article, shouldn't the quality-scale be re-assessed? I think it could even go for a "Good Article"! 86.28.171.246 (talk) 12:16, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, but after it's done. -mattbuck (Talk) 12:26, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I was certainly considering putting it in for WP:FEED, as I'd like advice from other editors less directly interested in Robot Wars regarding how long the "Combat history" section should be. To my eyes, it just looks and feels too long and drawn out. Other obstacles to cross if we want to make Razer a good article will be the lack of images (as mentioned elsewhere, I have contacted Ian Lewis to ask if any of the photos from the old website could be released as WP:CC-BY-SA), and the need for references for Series 6 and Extreme II. What other suggestions/criticisms do you guys have? Remember to be bold! :-) -- Countdown Crispy  talk contributions 13:14, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I think we should have images of Razer over the years. For example, for Extreme 1 the scoop was re-designed; where's the image? And in Series 2 it didn't have the "wings"; again, where's the image? Razer changed over the years, and some images will help the reader see the "evolution" of Razer. The Robot Wars Wiki has a few images of it; does it help? 86.28.171.246 (talk) 13:23, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I completely agree with the evolution idea, and acknowledge that there are plenty of photos of Razer floating around the web - the issue is that they are all someone's copyright. That's why I've contacted Ian - if he took the photos of Razer in question, he holds the copyright. (As a rule of thumb, copyright belongs to the person behind the camera, and not who or whatever is in front of it.)


 * Whilst you can use 'non-replaceable' copyrighted images on Wikipedia under 'fair use', photos of Razer will by their nature be replaceable - i.e., a screengrab of Razer from Robot Wars is not appropriate to illustrate its front end from Series 5, as this would be shown just as well in a snapshot from the pits. The only exception I can see in Razer's case is a screengrab of its appearance in Series 2, given that the archived Razer website states that no photos of this evolution of Razer exist. If anyone has the Razer DVD (shockingly, I don't possess it!) then perhaps they could see if there is a shot of this wingless version of Razer which could be captured.


 * For more information on Wikipedia's policy on image use, check out Image use policy. Meanwhile, I intend to take a photo of the Razer toy at some point soon. The more pressing issue is that lack of referencing on Series 6/Extreme II. -- Countdown Crispy  talk contributions 14:42, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok. Let's hope Ian is generous with us! Hang on, "Razer toy"? You have Razer merchandise? Wow... 86.28.171.246 (talk) 18:30, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Update: I've added a photo of the toy, made several minor alterations whilst trying to push the article towards GA-quality, and I'm waiting for a second reply from Ian. He very quickly got back to my original email and attached a load of excellent photos that I am very keen to upload and use, but I have asked him to clarify if he is happy to release the images under a free licence.


 * Whilst I would personally not want to submit this article for GA evaluation in its current condition, it is certainly on the way and so I will shortly submit it to WP:FEED to see what changes other editors suggest. -- Countdown Crispy  ☎ ✎ 12:31, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Good article nomination
As you might well have spotted at the top of this talk page, The C of E has nominated this article for the title of 'Good article'. It's something I know we were keen to achieve, so fingers crossed it goes well. I thought I should explain where I am with the article, and indeed my reasons for not previously nominating it myself:
 * I now have quite a bit of work to do IRL&mdash;my degree resumes in precisely one week&mdash;and this is why I have been less active on Wikipedia in the last two or three days. (That, and this article needs a lot less work than when I started! I would still like to work on other Robot Wars articles, time permitting.)

My reasons for not nominating the article stemmed from having two further improvements to perform: This said, I am still confident that the article has come on in leaps and bounds and has a good chance of passing. I will of course still follow up these two improvements as and when I can. H1nkles, who conducted the recent peer review on this article, offered some excellent insight and it might well be worth contacting him to ask for any advice he might have now that the article has matured further. Meanwhile, I will be watching (and hopefully contributing) to this process as it kicks off, and have my fingers crossed that this can become a first for Robot Wars articles on Wikipedia.
 * I have found a Flickr user who has agreed to licence an excellent image of Razer under CC-BY-SA. Whilst the article now has many more images than previously (and, indeed, under preferable licences and/or with full fair use rationales), I felt it was a sufficiently encyclopaedic angle of Razer to be worth following up. The delay in uploading it stems from wanting to make sure we have the correct permissions to use the image - i.e., not just from the photographer, but also from the team who own the likeness of Razer.
 * The other reason for delaying is due to issues with sources for the retirement section. It appears that the Razer team announced that they would not be appearing in series 7 on the now defunct Robot Wars forum. Therefore, the problems with sourcing this are two-fold: the forums are no longer there and, even if they were (or could be found on an archival website), a forum is not really considered a reliable source. Asking a Razer team member to confirm details of why they retired is strictly forbidden as it constitutes original research.

Best wishes, Countdown Crispy  ☎ ✎ 09:33, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Well now of course the problem is that you now have to wait a rediculous amount of time before someone takes a look at it. Although I don't know you can ask someone who isn't involved to have a look, I know a couple of editors who are quite amicable if we so wish to go down that path and it's not a violation to ask someone else to review rather than waiting for random passover reviewers. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 09:52, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I've placed the review on-hold pending some changes I've suggested at Talk:Razer (robot)/GA1 which, whilst a long looking list, shouldn't take too long to fix! Let me know when you've made the changes, and I'll be happy to promote this to GA. Ged  UK  08:06, 23 September 2010 (UTC)


 * As mentioned below, I've now promoted it. Well done! Ged  UK  08:56, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Improvement wish list
As this page was recently nominated for Featured article status and declined for a number of reasons and I want to focus on other things I'm throwing the issues out to the community to see if they would like to help improve this article and bring it up to a possible Featured article level of precision. Once you've fixed an item on the list (or noticed if it's already been fixed then please strike it out. The list is as follows:
 * Too many one-paragraph subsections, which break up the flow of text
 * We're now down to one. Can anyone find a reliable source on why the team broke up? Countdown Crispy 09:02, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I think I may have something detailing the team's breakup but I don't think it would be acceptable to use as a source, the source is here. Although I have thought that this issue and the one about why Blood joined the team is about the team and not about the robot which this page is about. (I suppose it's the equivilent of the issue we had with Razzler when promoting this to good status). 09:46, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Good detective work, but sadly I don't think the Robot Wars Wiki would ever be an acceptable source - it's not dissimilar to sourcing a statement in one Wikipedia article from another. Furthermore, I'm inclined to disagree - I think the team are integral to the story of the robot's construction, battles and in particular its eventual retirement, though sadly it looks unlikely we're going to be able to source this from anything other than Wikis, hearsay and memories of posts on now-defunct forums. Not sure where to go from here, though I am at least pleased the article has grown much stronger following the brief FA review. Also, I'm not sure that Battlebots source you listed is appropriate; from what I saw, it didn't actually offer a breakdown of all of Razer's battles and results. (I only skim-read this so feel free to correct me if I am wrong.) Best wishes, Countdown Crispy 16:48, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Well the Battlebots source only refers to one of Razer's results, however it still proves Razer competed in Battlebots and it gives us a secondary source, rather than another link to the archive of Razer.co.uk. As for the team issue, I've done some more snooping around and I don't have any direct information about the split but look at this. The BBC site after Robot Wars only mention Scott and Lewis being part of Team Razer, so maybe this could be used to say there was a split? The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 09:16, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that will hold water, but then again I am not the most experienced editor on the wiki. Perhaps you could contact someone more senior (such as the users who conduct FA reviews) and ask their thoughts on the matter? Beyond this, serious kudos on the good work you have done to this article recently. It's improving in leaps and bounds. -- Countdown Crispy 14:44, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, CountdownCrispy. Policy says no. Apparently if we used that to signify a split we would fall into WP:SYNTH and after having another search, I can't seem to find any reliable sources to show why Blood left the team so I don't think we'll be able to include this one. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 11:54, 19 October 2010 (UTC)


 * "up to nine tonnes of pressure per square inch" (and other measurements) - provide conversions to other measurement systems
 * Almost there with these - just working on finding a sensible conversion for the aforementioned tonnes per square inch. ✅ Countdown Crispy 10:28, 26 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Spell out numbers under 10
 * "2.5 millimetre thickness armour panels versus 1 millimetre before" - grammar
 * "healthy spell of reliability" - what does this mean? Source?
 * "saw this evolution of Razer win" - do you mean this iteration?
 * What's a cush drive?
 * Best Design Award or award?
 * When did Blood join the team, and why?
 * That, I think can be dealt with by citing that in his own words. The split thing still remains a mystery but maybe the BBC source I suggested could be used to cite it. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 10:27, 15 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Is the side tournament called Pinball or Pinball Warrior?
 * I can't see a problem here, unless someone else fixed it without me noticing? Countdown Crispy 14:53, 25 September 2010 (UTC)


 * "end up in the midst of Matilda" - what does this mean? Was it on Matilda? Near Matilda? Does Matilda have a large gap in its middle?
 * "10 milimetre" - spelling and grammar
 * Check out WP:HYPHEN in addition to WP:DASH
 * "to reach a first series semi-final" - what does this mean?
 * "Against Wild Thing, Razer damaged an exposed drive wheel" - its own or its opponent's?
 * "In the last eight" - the last eight what?
 * Be sure to maintain an encyclopedic tone at all times
 * What's a pull-back topy?
 * Source for the stats in the infobox not mentioned in article text?
 * Combine identical refs - see WP:NAMEDREFS
 * Publisher for ref 12?
 * Ref 14: what is "w/e"?
 * Need consistent formatting for references
 * I've gone through them all and improved the consistency of parameter use, etc., but would appreciate any second opinions. Countdown Crispy 09:02, 26 September 2010 (UTC)


 * If you're going to include publisher location, make it more specific than "USA"
 * Dropped "USA" for now as I don't have copy of the book to look up the publisher's location. (Can anyone help here?) Countdown Crispy 09:02, 26 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Battlebots is mentioned only in the lead
 * Well, I think I may have an extra paragraph to fix this issue, but I thought it might be best if I get some feedback before adding it in. You can view it at my sandbox page. Please note that where it says (add Razer report) That means that it should be linked to the report on the event by the Razer website which I can't do on the test page. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 17:56, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by The C of E (talk • contribs)
 * Brilliant idea, mate - thanks for all your help, and as much as I wish you well with your other projects (be they on- or off-wiki) I really hope you'll keep popping back to this one. You've done a lot to get this article into the condition it's in today. In particular, if you were upset by the premature closing of your FA nomination, don't be: there's so much great advice that's given us a really detailed to-do list. I'm not sure doing the above will be sufficient alone will be enough to get it to FA status; however, it will help us all to remove the pedantic manual of style based flaws so that we can get really good criticism of the prose itself.


 * Meanwhile, I received an email from Ian Lewis this morning. I wasn't performing original research (honest guv'nor!) - it was in response to the 3/4 perspective image request. I will personally sort this out later on this evening when time is a little more on my side, as dealing with image copyrights is tricky to get right. However, on top of his go-ahead to use such a photo he also offered us some praise and constructive criticism:


 * "The article is very, very good.........I'm well impressed with the level of detail, more detail than I can remember ! ... Feedback, well I would get the detail about the arm making 3 tonnes at the tip in on that first instance, an engineer would take one look at the arm and decide it would bend with a force of 9 tonnes (prob then switch off). We could generate 6 tonnes in under the arm, reason - we could not get the machines in any closer to the lever pivot. It makes about 9 tonnes at the output of the ram. 3 to 1 lever ratio gives the 3 tonnes at the tip."


 * Again, per WP:NOR we cannot update the article to this effect citing this email as a source! However, this is exactly how Simon Scott explains it on the Razer DVD; I've simply got a little muddled with my sources. Perhaps the best thing to do is to say three tonnes at the tip throughout, citing the DVD, with a note in the body of the article (but not the lead) to explain the reason for the common nine tonnes misconception, which again we can reliably source.


 * Ian also suggested we change the term "crushing arm" to "crushing piercing arm" - I personally feel this is a little long-winded, but we could certainly use that term in the infobox and when the arm weapon is introduced, before simply referring to it as an "arm" for the rest of the article. These entirely constructive criticisms aside, he is chuffed:


 * "Absolutely, yeah, it's real nice to have this article done, love it."


 * High praise indeed. :-) Thanks to everyone involved for their help so far, and let's see how much further we can go. Best regards, Countdown Crispy 18:04, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * ...or we can simply call it a "piercing arm". It doesn't actually "crush", it "pierces". Can we use this term? It seems far more accurate... "Crushing" means "to squeeze or press", while "pierce" means "to make a hole through (something)", and, as most of you know, Razer transformed quite a few robots into sieves! :) 86.28.171.246 (talk) 21:21, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ Countdown Crispy 20:52, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, CC. I do certainly remember that the DVD did explain why theres the common 9 tonnes misconception, Scott saidon it that it's only if you "get a robot right underneath so it's almost 1 to 1 (with the chassis), you get 9 tonnes" (I think that's what the quote is but it's something along those lines) The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 07:34, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
 * And as for that idea of why the team split up, I think theres an explaination in the comments of a Youtube video of the DVD of them explaining how Razer works citing artistic differences but I think that is a definate no-no to use as a source (blasted WP:NOR!) P.S. CC, I did fix that pinball inconsistancy and I guess I forgot to strike it. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 08:56, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Improvement Wish List. Level 2
Well thank's to Nikkimaria's second look over of the fixations from the above improvement list we seem to have a few more issues we can all tackle before a possible FA nom:


 * Make sure footnotes come immediately after punctuation, no spaces in between
 * Double-check that you've avoided close paraphrasing or plagiarism. That's been an important point of review at FAC recently
 * Fair-use images are also a common problem - you may wish to consider removing one or two, and check that the rest have strong FURs and complete source information
 * In my opinion, You need the images currently on there because it shows the developments of Razer through the years but the source info should be checked before we strike this. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 10:02, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Well I've had a look at all of them and they all seem OK to me, but if anyone better versed in the copyright thinks otherwise go ahead and mention it. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 12:51, 15 December 2010 (UTC)


 * What is Robo Challenge? "Retirement" needs a slight expansion for explanations
 * WP:HYPHEN
 * Give it a final run-through for grammar, tone and flow, and a final check for reference consistency

Same as last time, strike them when you've fixed or checked it and we may have ourselves an FA. Thanks. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 15:54, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

"Southern Annihilator – Series 5" section header
I notice that one of the changes to this page since I was last on Wikipedia some months ago is the alteration of the aforementioned section header to instead read "Southern Annihilator – Series 4". I think the purpose of the en dash in the middle is being misunderstood: it means the section covers everything from the Southern Annihilator through to Series 5 chronologically, in the same way that a CV might list the time spent in a given job as "January 2004 – June 2007". It doesn't mean "part of" as in "the Southern Annihilator was part of Series 4" (which it wasn't reeeeally anyway; it just made financial and logistical sense to film it during that recording block). I hope this avoids any confusion. :-) -- Countdown Crispy 13:18, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
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Razer is returning for the 2016 revival of Robot Wars
Source VGN34D (talk) 01:11, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/ROjCkUUD09WdunrFw8RIGA--/YXBwaWQ `b9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9NzQ0O2g9ODc0/http://media.zenfs.com/en/homerun/feed_manager_auto_publish_494/9061b44c07331dc75a91eec31b1a3701 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lafk5444 (talk • contribs) 18:54, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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