Talk:Real Audiencia of Charcas

Untitled
Actually, it is simply incorrect to have the title Real Audiencia given as English. I defer to others re: appropriateness of leaving audiencia as a technical term in place of the perfectly valid but somewhat misleading "audience," but real should certainly be translated to "royal." On the other hand, not very interested in moving all the associated mistitled pages today, so left this one til I (or you! =) can go through them all at once for the sake of consistency. -LlywelynII (talk) 07:52, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

"Audience" is a "hypertranslation". No English-language dictionary defines it as a court or tribunal. It is a "hearing," at best, but that's not how the Spanish were using it. Save from certain books from the 19th and early-20th century, almost all textbooks on Latin American history (and definitely monographs on the subject) use the Spanish term for this reason. In fact it's only on Wikipedia (and web-pages derived from it) that I see "Audience" used.TriniMuñoz (talk) 05:45, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Comments
Fixed incorrect and highly misleading link on page. The City of the Most Holy Trinity (Sp. Ciudad de Santísima Trinidad) referenced here isn't the island of Trinidad off Guyana but part of Buenos Aires after its second founding by Juan de Garay in 1580. The full name of the two cities was Ciudad de la Santísima Trinidad y Puerto de Santa María del Buen Ayre. -LlywelynII (talk) 07:31, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Moved. EdJohnston (talk) 04:11, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Royal Court of Charcas → Real Audiencia of Charcas – Restore original name of page and consistency with location of the article real audiencia. Alternatively, at least use "Royal Audiencia of Charcas". I'm normally a fan of using English names, however the consensus of the sources is quite clear: Audiencia IS the English name for these bodies of the Spanish Empire, and "Royal Court of Charcas" seems to be a term made up by Wikipedia. I've been doing some somewhat related research, and every single English book I've consulted uses "Real Audiencia". This is backed up by the ngrams / Books / Scholar results below: (clipped to not fill up the RM page) SnowFire (talk) 19:12, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Note that by including "of" in the phrase (rather than "de") we are guaranteed to only get English-language results, so this isn't being "polluted" by Spanish-language sources. Anyway, there's an argument for "Royal Audiencia of Charcas" since the figures are shakier on Real vs. Royal, and this would be consistent with the other articles in Category:Royal Audiences of the Spanish Empire, but I believe that the Google Books results above indicate it's okay to use "Real" as well. As for the consistency argument, yes, if this move goes through, I believe the other articles in the category - most of which were at "Real Audiencia" originally as well before also being moved by the same user - should be moved back to "Real Audiencia of X". This is just a convenient starting place because it sticks out like a sore thumb, and since the results aren't skewed by modern courts due to the city changing its name. SnowFire (talk) 19:12, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Ngrams result - "Audiencia of Charcas" is consistently 10 times more prevalent or more than the competition since 1900. ("Audience of Charcas" shows up pre-1900 if we really want to use an English term.)  Note that Real/Royal doesn't register.
 * Google Books: "Real Audiencia of Charcas", 206 results, "Royal Court of Charcas", 42 results. Note that the latter results include phrases like "in 1559 King Felipe ll created the Audiencia (Royal Court) of Charcas" counting for "Royal Court" despite the fact it's clearly a parenthetical translation.  Removing Real/Royal makes it starker: "Audiencia of Charcas" gets 38,900 results, "Court of Charcas" gets 1,090 results.
 * Google Scholar: "Audiencia of Charcas" 299 results, "Court of Charcas" 34 results. (Including Real/Royal tanks the results too much to be relevant.)


 * I, obviously, second this.TriniMuñoz (talk) 02:28, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Support / restore - this is normally written in English using the Spanish name. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:21, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.