Talk:Real Time with Bill Maher season 15

Removing upcoming listings
User:Jeh has removed upcoming episodes, stating uncertainty due to production. This is against the status quo and should be discussed, instead of edit warring. Reliable sources of upcoming guests and dates should suffice here – it's not unverifiable speculation, so WP:CRYSTAL does not apply here. There is no difference with listing upcoming episodes of Saturday Night Live or any late night talk show. -- Wikipedical (talk) 16:23, 21 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but I think WP:NOTCRYSTAL absolutely applies:
 * "1. Individual scheduled or expected future events should be included only if the event is notable and almost certain to take place. Dates are not definite until the event actually takes place." (enph. added)
 * Individual episodes of most TV series are not "notable" and I do not believe that "almost certain to take place" is defensible. Guests can cancel, entire episodes can be cancelled or replaced with a rerun, etc.
 * See also WP:NOTTVGUIDE:
 * "4. For example, an article on a broadcaster should not list upcoming events, current promotions, current schedules, format clocks, etc." (emph. added)
 * WP:OTHERSTUFF arguments are not compelling. Jeh (talk) 17:18, 21 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Firstly, WP:CRYSTAL applies to articles about anticipated events. We're not creating articles about those episodes, and I assume you're not arguing this page fails CRYSTAL.  But you're also leaving out the crucial sentence "A schedule of future events may be appropriate if it can be verified."  Everything on this episode list is verified by reliable sources and inline citations – CRYSTAL has to do with unverifiable and speculative events.  Your reading that upcoming episodes fall into that category is unreasonably broad and goes against a consensus at WP:TV that episode lists should be comprehensive and include upcoming episodes.


 * Calling into question that an episode can be canceled or replaced is what's speculative. Regardless, if you really believe WP:NOTTVGUIDE bans listing upcoming episodes, which it doesn't, you should start a broader discussion at WT:TV, not here at one TV series' season page.  --  Wikipedical (talk) 17:02, 22 October 2017 (UTC)


 * You wrote: "goes against a consensus at WP:TV that episode lists should be comprehensive and include upcoming episodes." Can you point me to where that consensus was established? I can't find it. Jeh (talk) 18:03, 22 October 2017 (UTC)


 * WP:TVUPCOMING and WP:FUTURESEASON were developed for the television MOS outlining how to create season pages specifically based on the addition of upcoming episode information, and there were plenty of discussions around their creation. The gist, "When a series is renewed for an additional season, a section is not to be added for that upcoming season until such time as an episode table can be created for the season," fundamentally encourages the creation of season articles once upcoming episode information is available.  While not identical to our conversation but pretty relevant, an RfC regarding future programming lists closed with an "overwhelming majority consensus that [lists of upcoming television series] are appropriate for inclusion," even though objections similar to yours were posed by an editor.


 * My position is still that CRYSTAL is to discourage articles about speculative/unverified events and does not apply to referenced upcoming television episodes (or upcoming televised debates, or the upcoming World Series, etc.). But again, that conversation should be brought to another talk page – not solely because 'other stuff exists,' but because your interpretation of CRYSTAL involves many more pages than Real Time with Bill Maher season 15.  --  Wikipedical (talk) 19:35, 22 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the pointers. I'm "standing down" here for now. Jeh (talk) 03:11, 23 October 2017 (UTC)