Talk:Rear naked choke

Existance of Technique
I added a reasonably detailed description of how to perform the RNC. Is this irresponsible?
 * Why not? An encyclopedic article should be complete. Shawnc 19:05, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Isn't Wikipedia NOT a how to guide? Bihal 14:54, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
 * So? The type of information in the two can overlap.  A description of the RNC helps one understand what it is. Jimmy C. 00:51, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I think it would be extraordinarily difficult to describe in detail any martial arts maneuver without imparting at least some knowledge toward its utilization. The disclaimer in the article looks out of place but I feel it's necessary. Yes, this discussion is almost a year old... but, uh, sue me. 68.14.76.151 08:55, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Could you please list your name and address so that I may serve papers? 63.84.231.3 (talk) 22:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I think You should not include the information on how to use this hold for I have been Injured and crushed my larnyx when another person performed this on me. Please remove the information for others peoples safety. Thank You. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cossatot (talk • contribs) 19:30, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Picture
Do we really want a pro wrestling picture on this page? While the "sleeper hold" is used in pro wrestling, it tends to give a very deadly move a "fake" image. I think someone should put the picture of the BJJ guy choking the lion. That was at least entertaining. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.183.123.23 (talk) 05:21, 28 January 2007 (UTC).


 * It looks fake... the pressure looks like it's on the windpipe, which is not the correct technique. I say change it. hateless 00:11, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree the image shows improper technique. I looked around for better pictures but didn't find any not copyrighted. I've removed the image since it detracts from the article. Those who disagree may revert the change. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.248.160.193 (talk) 04:38, 3 May 2007 (UTC).


 * The new picture is hardly better! Str1977 (talk) 18:09, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Proper Technique
I was taught not to grab my bicep; instead I should curl my hands into fists and but one on top of my bicep, while the other goes behind the head/neck and sissors. Jimmy C. 00:51, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

The description of the judo version is incorrect. The "standard" version does NOT apply pressure to the carotid arteries but to the windpipe. (trachea) Any standard reference on Katame no Kata will support this. One could also make a careful viewing of the Kodokan Katame Waza video, originally published on VHS, but now widely available on youtube. Kodokan Judo by Kano et al also clearly shows this. The version where pressure is applied to the carotid arteries is ALSO considered Hadaka Jime in judo, but there is no credible source tracing back to the Kodokan (original school of judo) that would support the assertion that this is the standard version. Calling the true standard judo version an "air choke" is also a bit misleading. In most cases the pressure necessary to block the airway is never achieved, but rather the opponent submits to the intense pain. Again, anyone who has been uke (partner receiving techniques) in Katame no Kata can attest to this. To actually apply pressure sufficient to block the airway would require the opponent to resist that intense pain possibly to the point of injury. The resultant bruising to the airway could be dangerous, possibly fatal. In judo competition the standard version is therefore mainly a pain submission technique, whereas the blood-vessel version is a means to render the opponent unconscious. Either result would lead to victory by Ippon. (Full Point) Tokuiwaza (talk) 03:28, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Figure Four Rear Naked Choke
As a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu practitioner, I wish to know how the mata leao uses clothing. I have never had to use an article of clothing in order to use the choke. I even will go so far and say that the choke has a higher chance of failure by grabbing the clothing.

I do not think the choke should be called "Figure Four" version and the other "actual 'Rear Naked Choke' version". This both sounds irresponsible and argumentative. The title of the page is rear naked choke. The headings should be "Figure Four Rear-Naked Choke Variant" and "Clasping-Hands Rear Naked Choke Variant". In addition the "In addition, this choke is often confused with... and figure four choke are still different chokes." should be completely removed. I believe the statement is completely wrong, and whomever wrote the section is attempting to fight an e-warrior battle on wikipedia and flex their intellectual muscle simultaneously, attempting to push their opinion as fact.

Also, there should be a special mention in how the forearm placed into the throat will cause an air choke, and the forearm and bicep placed on the sides of the neck will cause a blood choke. I believe the point is mentioned too casually. -Ninja-Awesome

Etymology
I'd like to see an explanation of why this hold includes the word "naked" in its name. Why not just "rear choke"? It doesn't appear to involve nakedness any more than any other hold. 96.28.136.215 (talk) 11:27, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Coming from Japanese Judo, Hadaka-Jime, is the only Judo choke that doesn't utilize the Judogi, therefore naked strangle, or rear naked choke refers to the fact that it isn't necessary for the uniform to be worn during the technique, from there we get the naked terminology. — Jdcollins13 (talk) 20:36, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

The japanese translation of the Judo technique is incorrect. Hadaka Jime or 裸絞め does NOT translate as REAR naked choke, but simply as "naked choke". There is no word or character in there that translates as rear. In this sense the judo categorization is broader than the BJJ or MMA one. The judo classification of Hadake jime DOES include what has come to be known in English as "rear naked choke" but also what has come to be known as the guillotine choke or front naked choke.Tokuiwaza (talk) 03:09, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Permanent brain damage?
I think the statement in the "figure 4" section about the potential for permanent brain damage is incorrect when referring to a correctly applied hadaka jime technique as taught in judo and as described in that section, and it needs to be removed or qualified and referenced. I am a judoka (and a neuroscientist), and many senseis and many books refer to the harmlessness of the technique when applied correctly. A momentary loss of consciousness does not cause brain damage. Incorrect technique can cause all kinds of injury and death, but correct technique causes brief unconsciousness and sometimes a little disorientation. Bodily shaking (mild convulsions) can also happen as the uke (recipient of the technique) regains consciousness. Opponents may apply this technique to 13 year-old kids in judo competitions worldwide, and if they don't submit, they go to sleep. It's fine. No need to worry parents of young judoka about brain damage. Brain damage from a properly applied technique can only happen if the pressure is maintained for 4-6 minutes after loss of consciousness (at which point it is no longer a proper technique), which is never allowed under the rules of judo, and which would be considered assault or attempted homicide in most jurisdictions, and not an accidental outcome of this technique. Dcs002 (talk) 01:47, 18 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I also think the entire Safe Application section should be removed. The only safety rationale presented is the editor's false assumption that temporary interruption of cerebral blood flow to the point of unconsciousness can cause brain damage. That only happens if the pressure is maintained long after unconsciousness, like I said above. Reference 5 in the article reviews the evidence in pretty good depth.

Dcs002 (talk) 04:25, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:23, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Roger Gracie Rear Naked Choke.jpg