Talk:Rebetiko

Reason for Redirect: Google Test

 * 48,500 for ρεμπέτικα
 * 12,700 for ρεμπέτικο

I'm thinking we should switch it to having the plural be the main article, and the singular being the redirect. --Jpbrenna 19:14, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Updated Google Test


 * Results 1 - 10 of about 44,200 for ρεμπέτικα. (0.27 seconds)<---Greek Winner
 * Results 1 - 10 of about 13,200 for ρεμπέτικο. (0.27 seconds)
 * Results 1 - 10 of about 43,400 for rebetika. (0.51 seconds)
 * Results 1 - 10 of about 17,600 for rembetika. (0.04 seconds)
 * Results 1 - 10 of about 1,810 for rempetika. (0.58 seconds)
 * Results 1 - 10 of about 74,300 for rebetiko. (0.14 seconds)
 * Results 1 - 10 of about 117,000 for rembetiko. (0.21 seconds) <---Overall Winner
 * Results 1 - 10 of about 1,370 for rempetiko. (0.43 seconds)
 * If we went solely by Google Tests, this article would be entitled rembetiko. If we went solely by Greek Google tests; however, the plural would win. --Jpbrenna 05:07, 25 May 2005 (UTC)


 * If we go by how the word is pronounced, rebetiko makes most sense. The Real Walrus (talk) 09:11, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Omissions & inaccuracies
These aren't exhaustive, but I'm listing them here as things that need to be attended to; other editors should feel free to add their own entries (though please don't remove anything unless the work has been done, or a reason has been given):

Omissions

 * 1) The origins of rembetika in cafe aman and smyrniotika.
 * 2) The rôle of rembetika in politics (and especially World War II).
 * 3) Laws relating specifically to the rembetes and their culture.
 * 4) Details of popular instrumentation, and the development of the form (see below).
 * 5) Effects on later Greek music (especially laiki and the New Composers).
 * 6) The U.S. experience, especially the relationships between emigrant rembetes and both jazz and klezmer.
 * 7) A list of prominent composers, musicians, and singers would be nice.
 * 8) Non-Greek language rebetika (Turkish, Ladino) and the necessary multilingualism of early performers
 * 9) The importance of Istanbul in rebetika. Though it's fashionable to talk about Smyrnaika, some of the most famous rebetika performers of all time, including Rosa Eskenazi, were based primarily in Istanbul before moving to Greece. eliotbates (talk) 10:49, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Corrections

 * 1) The bouzouki and baglamas were later arrivals, though they certainly became closely associated with rembetika. More usual at the beginning were laouto, clarino, and violin.
 * 2) The lyrics of the very early recordings were also bowdlerised &mdash; it wasn't just the later ones.
 * 3) The reference to opium dens is puzzling. Surely it should say hashish? (Anonymous by paranoia.)
 * The Greek article said literally, opium dens. They may have meant a more general "drug-den."  I understand that hashsish was the drug of choice, but I wouldn't be surprised if a little opium made its in too.  I need to finish translating the Greek article.
 * Presumably an article by someone opposed to the goings on in tekkedes? I'm translating a book about hasiklidikes (very slowly) and see some reference to cocaine and heroin, besides hashish, but none to opium. (Anonymous by paranoia.)

Discussion
This is all just off the top of my head, and my own relevant books are all in boxes in the garage waiting for it to be converted into a library (kochinin Befti &mdash; and that gives a clue as to where I learnt my Greek). Mel Etitis ( &Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf; ) 14:10, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Page move
I moved this page back to Rebetico, as there was a complaint about the move to Rebetika, on the grounds that there was no consensus to move it. I also checked Google: there are 43,400 entries for rebetika, and 74,200 for rebetiko &mdash; not that this is a sufficient reason, but I took it into account. It also seemed odd to use the plural as the title, though there may have been a good reason. The editor who wants to move it should try to get the agreement of the other editors on the page first. Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 04:33, May 25, 2005 (UTC)
 * You're Googling in Latin-alphabet characters. Try Googling in Greek.

--Jpbrenna 04:49, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
 * This is the English Wikipedia, and anyway, Google shouldn't determine the issue. Please try to get the agreement of the other editors before making any further moves. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:53, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

I must say that I've never heard anyone refer to it as "rebetiko"; the term is generally used in the plural, and the Wikipedia policy is to use the name that's in general use. Mel Etitis ( &Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf; ) 13:21, 25 May 2005 (UTC)


 * It was Arberor who complained about it, if that helps. SlimVirgin (talk) 15:25, May 25, 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks &mdash; I've leeft him a message asking him to join in the discussion here. Mel Etitis ( &Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf; ) 15:40, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm not exactly expert in Greek, but I use the word Rebetiko to mean the style or musical genre. Rebetika is what I say when I am refering to the body of work as a whole. But that's just me, and I am fairly often wildly wrong about things. I would say leave it as it is and concentrate on the other things that need to be done. Which I mean to get on with as soon as I have time. The Real Walrus 09:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

It's refered to as "To Rempetiko tragoudi" - Ρεμπετικο τραγουδι or simply the "rempetiko" - Το ρεμπετικο as well as "ta rempetika tragoudia" (rempetika songs) or simply "rempetika". Both are correct and widely used.

Excerpt from the Music of Greece page
Popular music

Rembétika was Greece's first popular music, arising in the urban areas of Greece. Its popularity has waxed and waned, as has its relationship with the government. Newer forms of popular music include laïkó and éntekhno. [edit]

Rembétika

Rembétika evolved from traditions of the urban poor. Refugees and drug-users, criminals and the itinerant, the earliest rembétika musicians were scorned by mainstream society. They sang heartrending tales of drug abuse, prison and violence, usually accompanied by the boxoúki, a sort of lute derived from the Byzantine tambourás and related to the Turkish saz. [edit]

Turkish origins

By the beginning of the 20th century, music-cafés were popular in Istanbul and Smyrna, primarily owned by Greeks, alongside Jews and Armenians. The bands were led by a female vocalist, typically, and included a violin and a sandoúri. The improvised songs typically exclaimed aman aman, which led to the name amanédhes or café-aman. Musicians of this period included Marika Papagika, Agapios Tomboulis, Rosa Eskenazi and Rita Abatzi.

In 1923, many ethnic Greeks from Asia Minor fled to Greece as a result of the Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922). They settled in poor neighborhoods in Pireás, Thessaloníki and Athens. Many of these immigrants were highly educated, and included songwriter Vangelis Papazoglou and Panayiotis Toundas, composer and leader of Odeon Records' Greek subsidiary.

One Turkish tradition that came with the Greek migrants was the tekés, or hashish dens. Groups of men would sit in a circle and smoke hashish from a hookah, and improvised music of various kinds was common. Out of this music scene came two of the earliest legends of modern Greek history, Artemis and Markos Vamvakaris. They played in a quartet with Batis and Stratos Payioumtzis. Vamvakaris became perhaps the first star of Greek music after beginning a solo career.
 * The above is exerpted for convenience. If you go to the page, you'll not that just below it, they refer to inconsistently refer to "laiko", then to "indiyoftika".  At the top, they discuss dhimotika.  There needs to be a consensus reached fast, and based on the general Greek usage, I would go with plurals for all genres except Neo Kyma -- which is, of course, a literal translation of "New Wave" in the singular. --Jpbrenna 04:49, 25 May 2005 (UTC)


 * "One Turkish tradition" etc, sort of suggests that the Greeks were suddenly corrupted, while they had in fact been growing their own for a very long time, and smoking it as well. Markos refers to cannabis being cultivated on Syros, for instance. The Real Walrus 15:44, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Protected
Jp, you can't change the name of the article in the text to Rebetika, while leaving the title as Rebetiko. I've protected this page until you and the other editors have decided on a title. Also, can you tell, when you moved the page, did you do it by cutting and pasting, because we seem to have lost the edit history? SlimVirgin (talk) 05:38, May 25, 2005 (UTC)
 * I am pretty sure that I did it by going to "Move" after breaking the redirect, not by copy/paste. That's usually what I do: I did it earlier today on another article in the Achaemenid dynasty series.  I'll check my edit history and see though. --Jpbrenna 07:08, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Transcript of from Yahoo! Msgr Offline Convo
''Verbatim - except IM name withheld to protect her privacy. She is a ntive Greek-speaker, fluent in English, with a degree from Oxford (which you might think would have given her more polish, but that's for a different discussion)''
 * damn. the more I think of it the more I get confused!
 * hmm, I think to rempetiko/ta rempetika is almost interchangable. But if you were to say laiko, you'd :only mean a particular song
 * but it depends on the context, so I can't say for certain
 * I'd say the canonical use would be the plural
 * usually the singular needs something following
 * most often tragoudi, or more rarely palko (scene)
 * laiko tragoudi, or laika. To rempetiko, or rempetika

--Jpbrenna 18:45, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Page move
I've been holding off from editing until there's some consensus on my suggestions and the article title. As there seem to be two voices here arguing for a change, and none arguing against (I've twice contacted the person who complained, asking him to argue his case here, but he seems not to want to), I'll make the move myself over the weekend. I'll allow another day or so to give people a chance to oppose.

Then, if there's no objection to my suggestions above, I'll get started on some of them. Mel Etitis ( &Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf; ) 08:21, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Beware Greeks bearing articles! Look what they've done:, very cleverly supporting neither dog in this fight.  Actually, I'd go with that, except "Rebetic Music" and "Lay Music (for laika)" would sound rather stilted in English.

--Jpbrenna 17:02, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Sandbox - Multilingual Coordination
Rebetika is the name for a type of music that originated at the margins of the Greek-speaking world, later widely influencing the emergence of laika.

The music itself emerged largely in the urban centers of Greece - in Athens & Peiraeus, in Thessaloniki and on Siros.

Material Move
The Greek article provides an excellent base to work from. I am currently translating it. Below is material (some of it added by me before I discovered the Greek article) that didn't fit into the more chronological structure of the Greek version. When the translation is done, we can mine this for material to include in the appropriate sections. --Jpbrenna 21:13, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Rebetes
Rebetika are the songs of the Greek underworld, sung by the so-called rebetes (Greek: ρεμπέτης). Rebetes were the unconventional people who lived outside the social order. They first appeared after the Greek war of Independence of 1821. They rejected many traditional mores regarding marriage, courtship, dress, speech, and the work ethic. They often went so far as to reject the use of umbrellas and hand-holding with girlfriends. Many smoked hashish and considered a prison record a badge of honor. Despite this often anti-social exterior, many rebetes displayed a social conscience and helped the poor and weak. They spoke a rich slang derived from a variety of sources, accompanied with the ebullient gestures common to the Mediterranean.

Many rebetika songs originated in prison or in hookah houses. There, the rebetes would sing with a slow, hoarse voice – usually the result of heavy tobacco or or hashish use, but sometimes purposely affected – one after the other. Every singer added a distich that often had no connection to the previous verse. There was no refrain. The singing was often accompanied by a bouzouki or baglamas.

By 1955 when Greece began to produce long play records in large numbers, the original rebetika had vanished. The production of the rebetika songs is done without the spirit or the complicity of the underworld. Lyrics include refrains and are not necessarily hashish-inspired. Still, many songs still included an echo of earlier themes: Vassilis Tsitsanis's To Vapori Ap' Tin Persia begins:


 * &#932;&#959; &#946;&#945;&#960;&#972;&#961;&#953; &#945;&#960;' &#964;&#951;&#957; &#928;&#949;&#961;&#963;&#943;&#945;
 * &#960;&#953;&#940;&#963;&#964;&#951;&#954;&#949; &#963;&#964;&#951;&#957; &#922;&#959;&#961;&#953;&#957;&#952;&#943;&#945;


 * &#932;&#972;&#957;&#957;&#959;&#953; &#941;&#957;&#964;&#949;&#954;&#945; &#947;&#949;&#956;&#940;&#964;&#959;
 * &#956;&#949; &#967;&#945;&#963;&#943;&#963;&#953; &#956;&#965;&#961;&#969;&#948;&#940;&#964;&#959;


 * The ship from Persia,
 * went down off Corinth,


 * It was filled with eleven tons
 * of sweet-smelling hashish

Non-existent sections, etc.
When someone wants to add a section, they can, but a host of section headings with no text just looks messy and ugly (a stub has to have some content). The "list of songs" is surely absurd; it would run into the thousands, at least. If someone wants to make a separate list, they're welcome &mdash; but it would be a quixotic enterprise. Mel Etitis ( &Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf; ) 7 July 2005 11:48 (UTC)
 * The stubs will be filled in soon. They will help my friend, who isn't too familiar with Wiki markup, to do her thing more easily.  As for the list of songs, that wasn't my doing.  It should be a separate list. --Jpbrenna 7 July 2005 12:51 (UTC)

I merged the zeibekiko and hasapiko stubs into this article. It seemed a logical spot; neither form seemed to have enough substance to be its own article. Hope this helps - Her Pegship 20:08, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

I've left a message at your Talk page. Neither dance is unique to rembetika, and if they are to be merged into a larger article (which does seem a reasonable move), I think that it should be something more general, such as Greek traditional dance, or Traditional Greek dance, or Traditional dances of Greece, or something like that. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 22:04, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Mulitilingual coordination
Is on hold. My friend has expressed reservations about some of the things asserted in the Greek article. She also feels that the list of performer bios will only be filled in by some "absolute fanatic of obscure rebetika figures." Little does she realize that is exactly the sort of person we rely on to get things done on Wikipedia ;) --Jpbrenna 8 July 2005 20:16 (UTC)
 * Correction. The material she has trouble with is in the English article, not the Greek.  Also, she objects to me using quotes around my paraphrase of her comments, so please ignore them.  I know you all are beginning to think that "she" is a figment of my imagination or manifestation of multiple personality disorder, but I assure you she does exist, and hopefully will soon prove her existence by doing some translation. --Jpbrenna 22:42, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

Dances
The article currently claims that all rembetika dances were either zeimbekiko or hasapiko; surely this is wrong? Of course those were by far the most common, but I've certainly heard tsifteteli and karsilama (and sometimes hasaposerviko). Of course, modern tourist versions are full of syrtakis, but we can ignore them... --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 21:17, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

True, as well as "sousta"

Rebetes
The introduction says that the first rebetes appeared after the revolution of 1821.I'm not sure but i think that they first appeared between the refugees of the Asia minor disaster in 1922.... that's when the songs themselves first appeared in any case, so i think it makes more sense...Padem 08:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Categories
There is no mention of Rebetiko in the list of musical genres, but I can not see how to add it.

Articles for deletion/Loukas Daralas
Loukas Daralas is mentioned here as a signficant person in this area. If somebody is familiar with him, you wish to add something to the article, and the AFD discussion. --Rob 11:22, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Questions
Can someone provide me with a source before I remove the following claim: "They first appeared after the Greek War of Independence of 1821." Miskin 22:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * There is nothing serious in the literature about the subject to support this claim. During and after the years of the 1821 Revolution, Greek songs were almost all folk songs, demotika. Rebetiko was born out of the urbanisation of mainland Greece in the early years of the 20th century combined with the waves of immigrants who came from Asia Minor after the Greek defeat by the Turks, in the 1920s, and brought with them various musical idioms. The themes, the instruments and the verses of the Rebetika bear out that the birth of Rebetiko came about from the meeting of indigenous, Greek music and Asia Minor music, with mostly the latter defining the genre. -The Gnome (talk) 13:01, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

"Many early rebetic songs were about drugs, especially Hashish which led Rebetiko to be criminalized." I think you are mistaken, but have no references to back myself up. Rebetiko was criminalized by the fascist Metaxas because he wanted Greek music to be like Western Classical music, but Rebetiko was and still is based on scales (dromoi) derived from Ottoman Makams and other middle eastern music. Hashish was probably made illegal for different reasons, such as America exporting its war on Drugs. The Real Walrus 14:13, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Better opening paragraph needed
I'm marking with bold my suggestions herebelow for the opening paragraph. The current definition is not accurate and not well written either, in my opinion. (The case for rebetika appearing "after 1821" for instance is baseless.)

{ Rebetika were the songs of the Greek urban underground, written or sung by the so-called rebetes (Greek: ρεμπέτης rebetis, plural: ρεμπέτες rebetes). Rebetes were unconventional people who lived mostly at the margins of society or even outside '''it, as outlaws. The main pioneers of rebetika have been the immigrants from the Greek diaspora of Asia Minor.'''

The songs, often compared to genres like American blues, are full of grief, passion, romance, and bitterness. They are generally slow, melancholic songs about the misfortunes and the  affairs of the heart of simple ordinary men. Many early rebetika songs were about drug use, especially hashish, which led Rebetiko to be criminalized during the dictatorship of Ioannis Metaxas in 1936. Not until 1947, when Manos Hadjidakis, through a series of lectures and articles, introduced rebetika to a wider audience  were these songs accepted as a legitimate music style. Damianakos Stathis noted that the rebetika songs of the first period were mostly the singing expression of the lumpenproletariat. A lot of rebetika songs are for dancing, zeibekiko and hasapiko being very common, but they also include tsifteteli, karsilamas and other dance styles. } -The Gnome 19:31, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I think you mean Stathis Damianakos, the Marxist sociologist. I also think there must be a better word for the rebetes than the awful Marxist lumpenproletariat, which has connotations that are mostly innappropriate, if not downright insulting to people who had enough to put up with. The Real Walrus (talk) 12:03, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Metaxas banning
Is the claim that Metaxas banned it due to some influences from Anatolía really substantial? The claim somebody made that it was because he wanted to make Greek music more "in line" with Western classical traditions is quite strange, since Rebetiko has some similarities to Romantic classical music played on guitar. For example if you compare this by Markos Vamvakaris, to this by Fernando Sor they're not completely alien. Many of the folk musics of Europe have a little bit of cross over with classical music on guitar, including Flamenco, Canzone Napoletana, etc. The idea that it was banned due to the assosiation with drugs seems more realistic to me. - Gennarous (talk) 07:16, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, he didn't ban all recordings. (btw it doesn't say so in the article). He began the censorship on discography in general, for sure. Many of the artist of the time (Tsitsanis, Papaioannou) claim that the censorship commitment didn't mind only the lyrics but also musical characteristics that where not western-like, at least for their ears. Don't forget Metaxas's regime was a fascist one, and he wanted Greek purity and no association with the Turkish culture. Yangula (talk) 09:32, 24 June 2008 (UTC)


 * My good friend Nikos Politis says Metaxas wanted everyone to listen to Mozart. He thought Western classical music was superior to Anatolian or any other folk music. The Real Walrus (talk) 12:39, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Discography?
Would it be within Wikipedia policy to include a basic discography of rebetika music? The problem of course is that many Greek records quickly go out of print or are available only in Greece, but there are still a number of good records that are commonly available in the U.S. -- for instance, collections by Rough Guides and on Rounder Records. Maybe the criterion should be to list things that are available on CD via major U.S. based internet vendors. I think it should include only original recordings, not ones by later interpretors. Strawberryjampot (talk) 22:41, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * After some discussion on the New Contributors Talk Page, I propose to put a discography of useful introductory Rebetiko music CDs on this page, and maybe put some CDs of individual performers on their individual pages. These will be 1) CDs which are likely cureently to be available to people in English speaking countries, and 2) CDs, mostly issued in Greece, which may be currently hard to find but should be mentioned because of their importance (e.g. the original 6-volume Rebetiki Istoria series.)  Any comments?  Strawberryjampot (talk) 23:19, 15 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I've started the discography but I don't mean to stop discussion; comments on it are still welcome. Strawberryjampot (talk) 17:05, 17 October 2008 (UTC)


 * After starting the disography it occurred to me that making recommendations or evaluative comments could be considered OR/POV, so I took them out and just left the basic listing. What do people think?  Strawberryjampot (talk) 17:12, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

The name again
Form and spelling are varied, but current Google results are:
 * rebetica 6,080
 * rebetico 7,180
 * rebetika 201,000
 * rebetiko 246,000
 * rembetica 10,200
 * rembetico 9,500
 * rembetika 165,000
 * rembetiko 149,000

So it looks like the leader is rebetiko, though those results may be influence by the very fact that that is the name already chosen for the Wikipedia article. However, the main Library of Congress Authorities subject heading form is Rebetika, which I think is a very important authority. Also, a search for rebetika on Amazon apparently is mapped to all forms of the word, and though I haven't counted, looking over the results seems to indicate that rebetika is the most common English language or transliterated form in currently available books and recordings. Overall, for these reasons, I'd personally prefer rebetika, but I don't think I can make a strong enough case to justify changing it at this point. Strawberryjampot (talk) 23:18, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Historical background
I've put some of the historical background of rebetiko into the article, but it still needs work and references, both to sources and to other Wikipedia entries. I'll try to do more on it later, but anyone else who has the knowledge is invited to add to or revise it. Strawberryjampot (talk) 14:51, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Performers and region
Does this page really need both a list of performers and a Famous Performers box? I'd prefer just the latter; it would look more attractive on the page than that long list. Strawberryjampot (talk) 17:38, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Tags
I don't think the essay-like article tag is justified here. Looking at the linked style guide I don't see that the article is seriously out of line with it. But I won't remove it until others have a chance to give their opinions. The primary sources tage, on the other hand is justified, but I think that virtually everything stated in the article could be supported by citations of the works referred to in the Further Reading and Discography sections (some of the CDs noted include liner notes or even booklets which are knowledgable enough to be considered scholarly.) Someone just needs to take the time to put in the citations. Strawberryjampot (talk) 00:03, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Since no one has commented, I've removed the essay-like article tag. Strawberryjampot (talk) 02:38, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Please correct the spelling: the correct form is "Rembetiko"
According to the etymology of the Greek word acknowledged by most scholars - rembos, rembazo, spelled with mu-beta - the only correct English spelling is REMBETIKO (sc. tragoudi, song). I'm afraid a Google search is not a reliable proof for anything, and the Library of Congress serves practical goals and has nothing to do with orthography: the system used there is based on Ancient Greek spelling and is never used for transliteration of Modern Greek words into English. Although a form with -b- is by now also common, it is much more preferable to write the words "rembetiko", "rembetika" (pl.), "rembetes" with -mb-. --Vladimir Boskovic (talk) 15:33, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Personally I think you are right. I'll put a question on Wikiproject Greece's talkpage because I'm not sure about the WP policy for the transliteration of Greek words into English.  Happy editing! Pel thal (talk) 15:43, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * To the best of my knowledge, there's no universally accepted standard for transliterating modern Greek into English either for Wikipedia or in the world in general. If this is the case, then I think the most sensible thing is for Wikipedia to use the English forms of Greek words which will be most familiar to Wikipedia users in English speaking countries.  Such things as the LCSH entry and the occurrence of forms in google searches and on music CDs published for an English speaking market are a useful gauge for actual usage in English speaking countries.  These sources don't give a completely clear answer as to which is the standard English usage, but as I remarked above, it's arguable that rebetika is the best candidate.  I'm not arguing at present for a change now -- I don't think we should tamper with the present article terminology unless we can reach a consensus on it -- but I did want to make the point that the choice of name form should be based on actual English language usage, not on scholarly linguistic arguments, just as on the basis of usage Wikipedia refers to Homer as "Homer" and to Athens as "Athens", though these word forms have never appeared in any period of Greek.  Strawberryjampot (talk) 15:27, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree, except that there are already two common forms in English (rebetiko and rembetiko) and there is no objective reason why one should avoid the form closer both to actual Greek pronunciation and to the word's origin in Greek--just as we write "Penteli" and not "Pedeli", "Pankrati" and not "Pagrati". The examples you mentioned (Homer and Athens) are not the most fortunate ones, as they refer to Ancient Greek. The argument of "actual usage in English speaking countries" is also a rather slippery one, as English has billions of both native and non-native speakers and no universally accepted literary standard. Furthermore, Google is by no means reliable in terms of actual usage, as it is widely used by English speakers (native and not) outside of English speaking countries. --Vladimir Boskovic (talk) 12:45, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Etymology of rebetes
Since this issue has been brought up above, here are some hints about it. The word ρεμπέτες is of course Modern Greek. The obsolete hypotheses that attempt to link the words bouzouki, zeibekiko, and rebetes with Αncient Greek roots are nowadays considered totally fringe by contemporary lexicographers. Triantafyllidis foundation (a very respectable source) proposes that rebetes may have a Slavic origin (confer rebyonok, rebyata). But since this is not certain, there are many alternative hypotheses (with varying degrees of credibility). Here is an informal collection of them. --Omnipaedista (talk) 19:11, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I've added some brief comments on this with references -- I don't think most readers of the article will be interested in much more. If I've made any mistakes in the format of the notes or in the Greek (it's hard to type Greek using that little alphabet at the bottom!) please correct them if you notice them.  Strawberryjampot (talk) 03:50, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I am no pro in these things, but isn't it kinda obvious that "ρεμπέτης" derives from "ρεμβεύτης" losing its "υ" - which is a quite common phenomenon in modern greek. "β" has been spoken as "b" instead of "v" in older times and this is still the case in some dialects. That would explain the shift of "β" to "π", which would have been necessary to retain the original pronunciation of "b". "ρεμβεύτης", by the way, would mean "roamer" from "ρεμβεύω" = "to roam".
 * I agree with the comment above. It is true that Triandafyllidis' dictionary is a respectable source and that it proposes a Slavic origin, but it does not make much sense. First, the word is Russian and not common Slavic, and Russian had generally very little impact on Greek. Second, it is unlikely that the tradition of rembetika would get its name from the points of cultural contact (Crimea and the Black Sea) so distant from the actual centers of rembetika music (Asia Minor); Turkish, Arabic, or some other Eastern Mediterranean language would be a more logical candidate. And finally, it is hard to explain the disappearance of the -y- element from the Russian word, not to mention that due to its phonetic rules the actual Russian pronunciation of the first vowel is closer to -i- (ribyata, ribyonak)--Vladimir Boskovic (talk) 12:57, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Inaccurate information
"On the other hand, other rebetiko songs, even ones describing criminal activity, became quite popular among the general population. One example is the song, "Varka sto Yialo," meaning "Boat on the Beach," which has a catchy chorus and is still popular and has gained general acceptance. While it is common to hear this song on the radio and in nightclubs, this song actually describes the shipment of drugs, via a boat, at night, from the Middle East."

Is that so? As far as I know this popular song is by Mikis Theodorakis, composed in the 60s, not a rebetiko proper song. And the lyrics talk about a romantic encounter and subsequent immigration. I have not found any other song by that title with the content described here. So unless someone provides details or references, I am inclined to delete this part. Schizophonix (talk) 13:42, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Maybe whoever wrote the paragraph quoted was actually thinking of "The Boat from Persia" ...? Strawberryjampot (talk) 17:03, 25 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Greek genres pages are a little bit of a mess as of now. I recently redid the "Music of Greece" template and plan on helping redo all of its related pages with the help of some editor friends. In the meantime, you can help by removing identifying and correcting inaccuracies as you have done already in this instance. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 15:56, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Petropoulos
I've changed back the description of Elias Petropoulos from "one early scholar of rebetica" to "the leading scholar" since 1) he wasn't particularly early, and 2) surely he is the leading scholar. If anyone objects, please discuss here. Strawberryjampot (talk) 02:57, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Discography again
I've added back the discography (couldn't revert) for two reasons. First, I don't think on principle such a major change should be made without discussion. Second, please note that the discography was added after a call for discussion of it on this talk page, and the discography was added only after a period for discussion of it had passed with no one objecting to it. This I think is additional reason why the discography should not be simply unilaterally deleted without discussion. Whether it should be included is a legitimate question, but under the circumstances I think it's reasonable to ask that editors who want to delete it to seek consensus via discussion for their action first. Strawberryjampot (talk) 02:54, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Information lacking a source can be removed without a discussion. The problem is that a discography of a genre can never be complete. There will always be more and more songs released. It would be original research and extremely pov to say here are some rebetiko albums and songs. Look at other genre pages. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 05:14, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Οι μάγκες δεν υπάρχουν πια. So they are not recording any more records. So a discography could be complete. The Real Walrus (talk) 07:25, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * And what about everyone else? You can't be selective. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 14:26, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * What do you mean? The Real Walrus (talk) 21:25, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I have asked for some outside opinions from WikiProject Music and have also asked for their opinion regarding the list of performers. These two sections seem like they should be categories if anything. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 20:08, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I myself am not for a discography section on this page. There is probably a large amount of this music released, and it is no use having CDs and stuff constantly piled on this page (if it comes to that stage, that is). And one of the sections is a red carpet with blue stains (metaphor); that doesn't make the page much better. I would totally be for categories concerning this. By the way, there is nothing wrong with putting down innovators of the genre as long as it is sourced and not in a discography format. Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 20:29, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see any compelling reason to keep them. Having a discography and list of performers may seem convenient for someone who is looking for a record, but this is an encyclopedia, not a database of rebetiko albums. That, combined with the fact that most don't have pages leads me to conclude that it is not worth having them. I just picture down the road when random editors start removing performers, adding others, etc. It is a can of worms. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 15:02, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the answer to the above objection is that the discography is specifically labeled as a select one, giving a few Greek recordings which may be hard to find but are of fundamental importance, as well as some authentic anthology recordings which are available, and are likely to remain available, in English speaking countries, and which have English notes. In other words, the discography is specifically labeled as not being a database of recordings, but a suggestion of where to go to find some of this type of music, and if subsequent edits try to turn it into a database, they can be reverted with the justification that consensus has been reached on what the discography is supposed to be. Without such a discography, readers new to the subject who read the article and say, "Gee, this sounds cool, where can I hear some of the music?" are going to be left without an answer. One way to look at it is that the discography is like a bibliography which includes suggestions for further reading, which I believe is within Wikipedia practice.  It's just that in this case the further reading happens to be recordings.  In fact, it's also the case that many of the recordings listed have substantial written notes which are one of the few sources in English for more information on the music, so they really are to some extend "further reading" and scholarly written sources.  Strawberryjampot (talk) 23:25, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Picture
The picture should show a trichordo, not a tetrachordo. And preferably a better bouzouki. The Real Walrus (talk) 14:40, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Call for discussion on various issues
Having returned to this page after not looking at it for some time, I wanted to offer some topics for discussion of its current state.

Overall the article is now good and useful, I think, but there are several areas still needing work.

I was the editor who put the Needs Sources tag on the article, and it seems more justified than ever. There are no sources cited for the sections Taxim or Rhythms of Rebetiko, the whole long section The Postwar Period has only two footnotes, towards the beginning, and many of the other sections seem rather meagerly documented. No doubt documenting sources is tedious, but it has to be done well for an article to be taken seriously. I've documented things myself to the extent I have the knowledge and the sources available to me, but I can't do any more.

I myself don't think the red links are a problem, since I think it's useful to have a full list of performers, even if many of them aren't (yet) in Wikipedia.

The discography is still under discussion, so I suggest leaving it in until something like a consensus emerges. This issue can of course be further discussed. Meanwhile, I'd suggest that if anyone wants to add to the discography, they keep in mind the introductory paragraph describing what sort of materials it includes (and if you don't agree with it, please discuss it here.)

I still feel the same about the name as I stated in the "The Name Again" section, above: it would be best to base the name on actual English usage, which would argue for Rebetika. But I also still feel it might not be worth the trouble to change it.

One of the greatest lacks in this page is of pictures. What pictures ought to be included seems to me pretty much a no-brainer. There are three rebetika photos famous above all others, which are familiar to every serious fan: (1) The Smyrna Trio of Rosa Eskanazi, Semsis, and Tomboul, 2) the large group photo of rebetes in Piraeus in 1937, including Iovan Saouz and Mathesis, and 3) the quartet of Stratos, Markos, Batis, and Artemis. (Personally I'd also like to see the picture of Crazy Nick, Marinos the Moustache, and their dog, though this is more rare and maybe belongs more in the mangas article.) Those three pictures are ubiquitous on the internet and are old enough so that they may be out of copyright, but I'm not very knowledgeable about permissions issues and don't know what needs to be done to get them into Commons so we can use them. If anyone has the knowledge to do this, it would be great.

Personally, I think it would also be appropriate to include photos of a few of the very most major rebetica figures, even if there are already photos of them in individual articles.

I hope the above points will create some useful discussion. Thanks to everyone for reading this, and thanks in advance for your thoughts. Strawberryjampot (talk) 17:10, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Looking at the page again, I'm starting to change my mind about the red links in the list of performers: there are so many of them, makes the list cumbersome, and it seems questionable whether all those isolated names will be useful to Wikipedia users. If there's a movement to delete them, I wouldn't object. Strawberryjampot (talk) 22:14, 15 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi Strawberryjampot! I added some photos; it was a nightmare to find some of reasonable quality. The Notes-section is a mess; I'll try to boil it down – will take some time. →Alfie±Talk 17:32, 19 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Finished separating notes from references and removed numerous op cit. according to WP:Footnotes. I removed the citation-template; I think that the article is not lacking citations, but there should be some collaborative work on giving exact locations within references – I was too lazy to check the article's history to find out who actually wrote the main text. For example a general reference to Schorelis' ‘Ρεμπέτικη Ανθολογία (Rebetiki Anthologia), in Greek, four volumes’ leaves the reader at least confused. I named all references according to WP:REFNAME in order to reuse citations more than once. I did not succeed in cross-reference to sources within notes (that's why I left 'Klein op cit.' in the last note); maybe somebody with a higher IQ than mine understands WP:REFNEST. Alfie  ↑↓ © 13:35, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Recent edits
Dear all,

please discuss the following. In a recent edit Billarasgr stated in the edit summary ''“I changed the dates to of rebetiko development because they were wrong. After 1960 rebetiko does not exist in its the "pure" form.”'' I reverted the edit, essentially because it was unreferenced and left a note on his talk page:

Hi Billasgr! I reverted your last edit, since it was not referenced. While I agrre with you that “After 1960 rebetiko does not exist in its the "pure" form” you shouldn't change something which is referenced. Be bold, but don't forget WP:REF. ;-)

He answered on my talk page:

Dear Alfie,

the reference that states that rebetiko developed in 60 etc has to be removed altogether. This is a book that is not from a native i.e. Greek author. To put it in simple terms that guy just doesn't know what he is talking about. I am Greek and rebetiko player for more than 20 years and I can tell you that rebbetiko does not exist after 50s. Then you may call it "arhontorebetiko" that mostly reflects music listened by middle classes. I would be happy to discuss with you in more detail if you wish.

For now take care and please revert my correction ;)

Cheers, billarasgr

OK, the article quotes “that guy” ten times. Being not a native Greek doesn't disqualify anybody. Gail Holst is Australian, Risto Pennanen Finnish, etc. Though I agree with you personally, WP can't deal with personal opinions (see WP:NOR). If you can come up with a reference, fine. Alfie ↑↓ © 14:33, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * What is stated to "start in the 1960s and develop further from the early 1970s onwards" is "the so-called rebetika revival", not the rebetiko music, in this sentence. Perhaps it's misleadingly written, but it doesn't seem to be nonsense from a "guy that just doesn't know what he is talking about", it only reflects the idea that the custom to label all these songs under the term "rebetiko" dates only from the 60's.--Phso2 (talk) 23:02, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree. For me the lead sentence is clearly written, but I'm not a native English speaker as well. Alfie  ↑↓ © 13:54, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

urban subcultural musical forms?
"Like several other urban subcultural musical forms such as the blues, flamenco, fado, and tango, rebetiko grew out of particular urban circumstances"

this is not at all correct. in fact whoever wrote it has no idea what they are saying. these different kinds of music cannot be all jumbled together. much less be called "subcultural"

nobody from montevideo or buenos aires considers tango to be a "subcultural musical form"

nobody in lisbon considers fado to be "subcultural"

nobody in southern spain considers flamenco "subcultural"

nobody in the south of the u.s. would call blues 'subcultural'

for example : you can walk around a town in andalusia and people will be randomly singing flamenco. and they dont have to be a gypsy. or be a part of any 'subculture'

you can easily hear fado all over lisbon- anytime of year

you can see people dancing the tango at the port market in montevideo. any given weekend. or being played in a cafe.

i dont think the word subcultural is properly understood by the author.

i dont think the author properly understand the word 'culture' either. or music. the analysis should be kept to rebetiko, the question of its role in greek society, and its origins, the job is difficult enough without muddling the waters trying to make incorrect corellations to other musical genres.

the article, in greek, makes no such absurd claims about fado or tango,or flamenco being a "subculture" much less labeling the most typical music of a country subcultural.

way to go and annoy millions of people all at once by denigrating their national musical style to 'subculture' status.

we are not talking about hardcore or deathmetal here. these are musical styles that define culture itself. the cultures of entire countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.158.153 (talk) 06:17, 26 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi. The article uses the term "subcultural" only in connection with its origins. See also the the articles about blues, flamenco, fado, and tango. The Greek article is a bad example, because it is based on not even a single (!) reference. If you know Greek, please see el:ΒΠ:ΠΗΓΕΣ, especially Όταν προσθέτετε περιεχόμενο. Don't worry about “millions of people” – the article has on the average 4,400 viewers/month (about twice as much as the Greek article). Alfie  ↑↓ © 11:07, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

flamenco, fado, tango, blues are not subcultural musical forms
no one in the country where these musics come from would label it subcultural. if for greeks rembetika is subcultural, great. but that is very different from a spaniards opinion of flamenco, or an americans of blues. much less a lisboetas idea of fado or an uruguayans fondness of tango. your subcultural label does not apply to that music. no i am not greek but my wife is her grandfather had one of the first greek radios in south america. i am a musician and have been to all the countries whose music is brought up here as an example of "subcultural musical forms" the bad things greeks say about rembetika you will never hear in portugal about fado, or in andalusia about flamenco. much less the river plate about tango, or say- chicago or texas about the blues. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.158.153 (talk) 07:47, 27 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi! I think this is a misunderstanding. Nobody in Greece would consider Rebetiko subcultural now; you can hear both old recordings as well as recent ones in every café throughout the country. Greeks don't say "bad things" about Rebetiko – how do you come to this impression? The origin of the musical style is another story. This article was written by dozens of authors and is backed by references. Thanks for your personal opinion, but see WP:NPOV and WP:SOURCE. Please don't forget to . THX.  Alfie  ↑↓ © 11:04, 27 April 2011 (UTC)


 * if "Nobody in Greece would consider Rebetiko subcultural now" then why is this article equating the folk musics of so many countries as subcultural? and why do you defend such a silly idea? yes its my opinion, that none of the music mentioned here is 'subcultural' but you have just shot yourself in the foot. you have written:
 * "Nobody in Greece would consider Rebetiko subcultural now" and you know what? nobody in portugal or spain or uruguay or argentina or the u.s. would ........ consider their own NATIONAL  music subcultural
 * fado, tango, rembetika, flamenco, blues
 * NONE of these musics are subcultural.
 * uruguay and argentina has been defined by tango for almost a century.
 * southern spain by flamenco per omnia secula seculorum
 * a long time man
 * the u.s. by blues for generations.
 * portugal by fado for generations as well.
 * you say: "Nobody in Greece would consider Rebetiko subcultural now"
 * i say nobody in portugal would consider fado subcultural
 * nobody in spain would consider flamenco subcultural
 * nobody in the river plate would consider tango subcultural
 * nobody in the u.s would consider blues subcultural.
 * this article is about greek music, if as you say "Nobody in Greece would consider Rebetiko subcultural now"
 * what is the need for this article to label other countries' national musical traditions as subcultural?
 * the article says, to remind you
 * "Like several other urban subcultural musical forms such as the blues, flamenco, fado, and tango, rebetiko grew out of particular urban circumstances."
 * you are defending this? because you have said
 * "Nobody in Greece would consider Rebetiko subcultural now"
 * trying to correct me
 * what are you saying?
 * your logic makes no sense, with or without references.
 * maybe you are getting paid?
 * i am just interested in information, you my friend are contradicting yourself in your arguements. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.158.153 (talk) 09:01, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Fixed format errors. Please sign your posts and use the Preview before saving the page in the future. THX.  Alfie  ↑↓ © 09:48, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

what is the need for this article to label other countries' national musical traditions as subcultural?
i really don't know but Alfie66 will give you contradictory arguements to explain it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.158.153 (talk) 09:35, 1 May 2011 (UTC) so dont even bring up the 'origins' because the euro/ethnic centricity of this article stinks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.158.153 (talk • contribs) 10:05, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * perhaps you should begin by understanding what is meant by "subculture"? Would you label all these style as "national music" in the time of their beginnings? Sure not.--Phso2 (talk) 12:50, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

fascist/reactionaries
the subject of this article is rebetiko: not what was it, but what is it.

not what was music, but what is music. for that very reason i cannot understand why an article on greek music would assert that popular uruguayan music, or popular portuguese music is subcultural.

and on top the article also claims that popular musics of argentina, spain and the u.s.also are subcultural.

insane.

you know there is one thing in common to all these musical types: they are NOT "subcultural musical forms"

i would love to have one of you guys show up in for example: lisbon, walk up to a random person and tell him that his national music, fado, is subcultural. maybe then you would understand what you're doing. try it. go ahead. get back to me after your bones heal.

i think the assertion in the article that certain musics are subcultural is elitist and rascist.

in todays europe not to mention the world as a whole, that sort of fascist/reactionary tendencies are very dangerous, not to mention illegal.

what would for example, the portuguese ministry of culture say about the assertion that fado is subcultural? should we have a formal complaint in the euro parliament? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.158.153 (talk) 07:08, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

i am voicing support for greece, portugal, spain, uruguay and argentina as well as the united states by continuing to assert that labeling any music made by any people as "subcultural" is dangerous, fascist, and reactionary.

but lets step away, for a bit, lets get to what i think is wrong with the reference to "subcultural musical forms"

ask yourself: if a country associates itself almost completely with a certain music, is there any way that music can be considered subcultural?

logic would say no. do you understand logic? it goes much farther than opinion.

if a country considers a certain music to be their defining music, then it cannot be subcultural.

you know what that makes it? popular. (as in people man, of the people)

you guys keep on insiting on calling all these different popular musics subcultural. its insulting.

ignorance insults truth.

rembetiko is or isn't popular in greece? stick to that point.

and don't trash other cultures while you are at it.

only some armchair scholar shmuck paid to write for wikipedia would try to argue something like: look portugal: your national music, fado, its subcultural.

it doesnt matter that your whole country considers it their soul food, forget it. its subcultural.

because i say so. in an aritcle on wikipedia about greek music!

and you do this to greece, spain, uruguay, argentina and the u.s. as well.

you have the face to tell tens of millions of people that their POPULAR NATIONAL musics are subcultural?

what you argue is just nonesense.

a music cannot be considered subcultural if a whole country associates itself with it!

what is not clear about that?

again: labeling fado, flamenco, tango, blues & rebetiko as subcultural is fascist, reactionary and rascist.

i just googled: "subcultural musical forms" because it just smells so much of fresh defecation....and fresh production this article is the fifth hit!! 5th on the list on the first page, of almost 100,000 results in fact on the first page, 3 hits reference rembetiko

is this what you guys are after? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.158.153 (talk) 07:41, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

its embarrasing, and shameful.

your grandmother would not be proud

again: labeling fado, flamenco, tango, blues & rebetiko as subcultural is fascist, reactionary and rascist.

in english, its wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.158.153 (talk) 05:34, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

A last example from my side: Hip hop was subcultural in the past and is mainstream now. EOD. Alfie ↑↓ © 10:13, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi IP! Such an edit is not helpful. Please read (and comply with) WP:CIVIL, WP:ETIQ, and WP:PERSONAL. THX.
 * Hi IP! In case you don't like to read the references in the article (or don't have the Acrobat Reader handy), see:


 * There are eleven references within this section. Go for it; read them. See e.g.,

Alfie ↑↓ © 23:21, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

contributors
While users contribute positively, constructing the Greek articles (user:Woohookitty for WPCleaner (v1.09)), Future Perfect at Sunrise change - commute them unconstructivly. - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rebetiko&action=history  - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hellenic_languages&action=history  be more cautious for better edits... - --SymposiumP (talk) 12:24, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Disturbing sources
I think that the first source ''Vintage Recordings from a Greek Underworld. ARKO CD008, CD & book'' isn't qhite reliable  for the credibility of rebetiko. --CanarianIsland (talk) 00:30, 29 February 2012 (UTC) Alterations made sense, your alterations made NO sence and dromoi are evoked before in the article as taximi after the Arabic word usually transliterated as taqsim', and written in Greek ταξίμ, has nothing to do with Turkey. Here is Makam. Otherwise It will be corrected next days asap. --CanarianIsland (talk) 21:15, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * it is a § on taximia, not on modes. You are mixing taximia and modes in a poorly written style. A taxim is not a mode, a mode is not a taxim. I wonder if you understand yourself what you write.--Phso2 (talk) 21:29, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Forget modes and taxim, you confuse arabic music with turkish, the point is: to add Dromos which is the same thing and separate the musical spheres as origin Furthermore taxim isn;t turkish!.. it is just an arabic word. --CanarianIsland (talk) 21:33, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

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Object to music having its roots in Turkish Music
Considering that Islam pretty much destroys the music of all the cultures it conquers, it is MUCH more likely that this music originated with non Muslim Greeks, Armenians, Gypsies and others who lived under Ottoman rule and were not barred by their religion from having either singing, dancing, drinking and otherwise having fun.

As an example of how strict Muslims can be (but not always are) an Iranian who was playing music in Saudi had his hands smashed by the Saudi religious police. Sucks to have been him!71.174.131.160 (talk) 10:37, 15 January 2019 (UTC)