Talk:Recognition of same-sex unions in Armenia

Davit Harutyunyan
"On 3 July 2017, the Ministry of Justice (Armenia)|Ministry of Justice, led by Minister Davit Harutyunyan, announced that all marriages performed abroad are valid in Armenia, including marriages between people of the same sex."

I removed his name from the text because none of the sources mention this person. Check the source before editing, thank you. Biased armenophile (talk) 14:09, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * He was the Minister at that time. Archives908 (talk) 14:18, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * If you take the time to read the wording carefully, you will note that it does not explicitly state that he said it, just that he led the Ministry. Nothing wrong with that. Archives908 (talk) 14:23, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

This is interesting input. Are you able to add reliable references to this statement from media? None of the sources explicitly mention his name. That's why it should be removed. Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed. Biased armenophile (talk) 14:27, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Per source
"In August 2019, the Minister of Justice, Rustam Badasyan, stated that Armenia does not recognize same-sex marriages, despite Armenia signing the Istanbul Convention. However, Badasyan also added that same-sex cohabitation is permitted and that violence against any person is unacceptable."

I corrected the text because it was misleading and contrary to the source. The source literally says: “In August 2019, the Minister of Justice Rustam Badasyan stated, that Armenia does not recognize such (same-sex) marriages. The question of whether they will live together or not is up to them. My personal position is this: marriage is a union of a man and a woman, and this concept cannot be changed. A child can only be adopted by a family recognized by the state, that is, a union of a man and a woman.”

However, the text was deliberately distorted by Archives908. Maybe you are just trolling since arguments like this "unsourced changes" are seriously nonsensical. The corrected text is supported by the source. Please, check sources before editing. Based on your behavior, it has become clear that you are pushing an agenda. Biased armenophile (talk) 14:40, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

you are ignoring a talk page request and a warning for edit warring. I don't understand why you keep saying there's no sources. I hope that your constant removing of my edits didn't have a personal motivation, but you have demonstrated a rather flippant attitude towards building a consensus. Biased armenophile (talk) 15:23, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I recommend you cease the hostilities and the personal attacks against me and keep it focused on the content. I will respond to you arguments above shortly. Archives908 (talk) 15:31, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Removal of useless sentence
As user is clearly showing no good faith and is attempting to start an edit war, let’s take it to the talk.

The sentence is useless, trivial and off topic.

What does the Istanbul Convention have to do with the recognition of same-sex unions ? The answer is nothing.

The statement that violence against LGBT people is unacceptable is relevant but not on this article. Move it to LGBT rights in Armenia, not here.

The statement about cohabitation may have a place on this article. I don’t necessarily mind it here.

User has reverted three times but has never shown a single argument as to why this should be kept on this page, apart from "it is sourced", which is not a good argument. Regardless whether sth is sourced or not, if it is off topic it has no place here.

Panda2018 0 (talk) 15:55, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Let's get the facts straight. I reinstated sourced material after it was removed without any rationale (fully acceptable move per WP:REMOVAL). Following which, you then removed the same material. I politely invited you to take any concerns to talk, not once, but twice. Per WP:BRD, you had every opportunity to take your concerns to talk, rather then continually removing the material without providing much justification. I'm glad you finally decided to bring it to talk. You also oddly claim that I did not present a single argument for the reinstatement. However, contrary to your false accusation, I clearly pointed out why this text is valuable to have in my edit summaries. Please read/re-read more carefully. Now, in terms of the content. As I already stated in my edit summary, the text (which is backed up by WP:RS) is purposeful in terms of building context. The statement is from a government official who is discussing and confirming the status of same sex marriage and cohabitation in Armenia. Not only is the information relevant because that is what this article is all about, but the statement itself confirms that while same sex marriage is not permitted, the government places no restrictions on cohabitation and opposes violence against the community. Thus, the complete text, highlights the position of the Ministry of Justice. Why would we dissect and omit certain parts of this text? What purpose would that serve? The only reason provided by you to remove the text, was that you thought it was "useless". Personal opinion is not valid justification nor the overarching authority on what is considered useful or not. Let's stick with wikipolicy. As far as I can see, the text is topic relevant and within scope, does help to build context, and is supported by a reliable source. Hence, no wikipolicies are being violated from the inclusion of this material. If you can precisely point out which policies are in outright violation, then we can discuss and debate from there. Thanks! Archives908 (talk) 20:44, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Move it to LGBT rights in Armenia, not relevant on a page dedicated to the legal recognition of same-sex unions. Because indeed the Istanbul Convention is about the recognition of same-sex unions. Regardless, I’m not going to bother with this any longer. You are known to rigidly gate-keep this article.

Panda2018 0 (talk) 21:26, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Status of foreign same-sex marriages in Armenia
The information contained in this page is incomplete. I suggest replacing the following:

''On 3 July 2017, the Ministry of Justice announced that all marriages performed abroad are valid in Armenia, including marriages between people of the same sex. Article 143 of the Armenian Family Code states that Armenia recognizes foreign marriages as long as they conform with the legality of the territory where they were performed, and does not explicitly prohibit same-sex marriages.[1][2][3] The Constitution of Armenia is believed to limit marriage to opposite-sex couples.[4][5]''

With:

''The legal status of foreign same-sex marriages is unclear. In 2017 the Ministry of Justice reportedly stated that all marriages performed abroad are valid in Armenia, including marriages between people of the same sex. [LINK] In 2019, however, the then Minister of Justice ruled out state recognition of same-sex marriages LINK and no instances of foreign same-sex marriage registrations are known. The Armenian Family Code, while stating that Armenia recognizes foreign marriages as long as they conform with the legality of the territory where they were performed (article 143) and containing no explicit prohibition of same-sex marriages, on the other hand restricts the application of foreign law norms incompatible with the domestic public order (article 152).[1][2][3] In 2015 a [Armenian constitutional referendum|referendum] approved the amended Constitution with a new definition of marriage given by Article 35. LINK Consequently, the Constitution of Armenia is generally believed to limit marriage to opposite-sex couples, although the Constitutional Court has never confirmed or rejected this interpretation.[4][5]'' Finedelledanze (talk) 10:44, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree. Also, we do not know that the 2017 "statement" was made by a representative of the ministry of justice. We don't know where or who it comes from at all. We don't even know who reported the statement, because the article doesn't even have a byline. The website overall looks unprofessional and is not abiding by journalistic standards, at least in the cited source: - no byline - no direct quotes from any authorities - the article is a brief with no context.

The 2019 statement from the actual Justice Minister could not be more clear: "The state does not recognize such marriages. The question of whether they will live together or not is their business. My personal position is this: marriage is the union of a man and a woman, and this concept is not subject to change. Only a family recognized by the state, that is, the union of a man and a woman, can adopt a child. You can refer to the example of Georgia in this matter.” He doesn't draw a distinction between foreign and domestic same-sex marriages because there isn't one. That's also implied by using the word "recognize" instead of "perform" or "authorize." It doesn't recognize marriages performed elsewhere. The 2019 statement from the justice minister is not limited to domestic marriages. If it were, he would have said something like "except for foreign same-sex marriages, which we recognize." But he didn't. He said, twice, "The state does not recognize same-sex marriage" and then gave an exclusively heterosexual definition of a family as understood by the government.

There has been literally no actual credible source backing up PanAmernia's 2017 unsourced, uncredited stub article assertion for nearly 6 years. The article has frequently been cited by other sources, but has never been corroborated by any Armenian government official. Cyanmax (talk) 18:06, 23 February 2023 (UTC)