Talk:Reculver/Archive 1

Merger proposal
I've just added the merge template to the Reculver article, per Help:Merging. Please note that the merge was first proposed by IP editor 86.23.69.211, and is supported by editor Le Deluge and me in comments above, which I've marked with bold type, in the section "Recent revision". Nortonius (talk) 17:04, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Having first been proposed at Talk:Reculver Castle on 5 September, this merger proposal has been up for about a week now, and there has been no input other than that indicated by me above; so, I'm closing the discussion with the result merge. Note that, in effect, merging has been done over a number of previous edits to the Reculver article, and the Reculver Castle article now stands as a duplicate. Nortonius (talk) 15:27, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Duh - for the record, I said above that the merge had first been proposed "at Talk:Reculver Castle" - I should've said, "by the addition of a merge template to the Reculver Castle article". Nortonius (talk) 16:04, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Recent revision
I've just about completed a fairly major overhaul of the Reculver article, especially of the "History" section. I'd be grateful for any comments on the changes from third parties, and a similar review of the article's status and categories. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 05:21, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Good stuff - it's only a few tweaks away from WP:GA, and you might want to talk to the UKgeo people about what you need to do to go all the way to WP:FA, that project is more active and has more experience of FAs than WP Kent. I've sorted out various minor WP:MOS issues, the obvious thing that the GA reviewer will pick up on is that a couple of paras like the Millennium Cross one don't have any refs at all and they do like to see at least one per para. Aside from that and just being subjective : the images were a bit church-heavy and the modern one in particular didn't really impart any encyclopaedic information, so I dropped it. Since the article is notionally about the village, it would be nice to have at least one pic including habitation. I don't know if it's possible, but perhaps the infobox pic could be a long shot of the church from the village? It would certainly look more welcoming if the main photo had some blue sky - things just look better in the sun. I know - that's getting really picky. If you're not local, I may get out there at some point in the next few months - I'm working my way taking photos from Thanet inwards - but the pic in Reculver Castle might do for now? Just generally, it might be nice to have a _little_ bit more on the Roman stuff, although I understand that's what Regulbium is for. Talking of Reculver Castle, I'm not sure what a full-length article on that would look like, but given the overlap it probably makes more sense to merge it in here before messing about with GA/FA? Le Deluge (talk) 13:28, 5 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks - good to get some constructive, third party input at long last! I'd tried splitting off the Parramatta bit, but couldn't get it to work for layout - it had never occurred to me to put a photo in among the refs! The Millennium Cross bit was already there with no ref, I've searched high and low for one online, and found related stuff, but nothing that actually underpins the para. About "church-heavy", I'd thought that myself, but I'm actually not local, and have been quietly/subconsciously leaving that to someone who might be. My only connection with Reculver is that my family used to holiday there in the late 1960s, so I don't really have anything to add on the village - only things like vivid memories of eating from the chippie, the pub having a weird name(!), being able at that time to go up the towers, etc.! Not exactly suitable... I think removal of the modern photo of the church follows naturally from the "church heavy" idea, and it didn't really add anything. If you can get a long shot of the church from the village, I think that'd be great. My subjective view of the current infobox photo vs. the one at Reculver Castle is that the latter page has a fine photo (of the church! Wot castle?!), but the current infobox photo gives a better idea of the location, as well as suggesting a certain bleak remoteness about the place looking east. And I think it is pretty remote, though not so bleak if you look west. But I completely agree, that there should be more about the village. I'll see if I can find some more Roman stuff that could go in. I agree about merging Reculver Castle here: no offence to the creator of that article, but I can't see the point of it to be honest, I've done a few tweaks there but only to straighten some stuff out, not to encourage the article's continued existence. If it ends up as a redirect, perhaps it should point to Regulbium. Cheers. p.s. Well done for finding that ref for the Hoy & Anchor! Nortonius (talk) 15:03, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Google Books can be your friend! :-) Obviously there's a problem that most of the books are Victorian, so you need to be sceptical of them for anything where views have changed or new discoveries made, but they're great for dull heavy-lifting stuff, and their coverage of then contemporary events is usually more comprehensive than modern history books. 2.1 of this ref should help you with the Millennium Cross, and could give you some ideas for other aspects that you've missed, other bits of history and the caravan sites for instance. 2.3 might also have suggestions for things to mention in the lead. I wonder if it might be worth dropping KARU a line to see if they could release some maps or images, or even to have them glance over the article even in an unofficial capacity?
 * The oyster hatchery ([www.oysterhatchery.com]) is also worth a mention - it certainly looks spectacular on satellite view. On the Millennium Cross, I wonder if it might work better if that line or two was worked into the main history, either as a distinct subsection or not, with a bit more discussion of the Saxon original, and then just have a photo of the new cross? Another item for my photos-to-do!
 * On the infobox photo, atmosphere is good, but it's hard to do on a 240px thumbnail. More importantly, the current thumbnail makes it hard to appreciate the coastal setting, as the sea is sort of the same colour as the land. Blue versus green would make it a lot easier.  I can't promise I'll get out there soon, it's a wee way away for me but I hope to get out there at some point.  My photo expeditions depend on when I'm in the area and also on what the weather's like - if we get a nice high pressure system for a few weeks that could make a big difference, although my current target is to knock off the Sandwich Bay/Dover area first. There's a ton of articles lacking images out that way and I'm trying to use up my big trips on going to the extremities, on the grounds that they are less likely to be done than places like Reculver which are closer to Medway or for London trippers. "Everything east of Canterbury" is the medium-term target, followed by Ashford, Rye, Maidstone, Sevenoaks.... It's slow stuff, not least because they tend to be the unloved articles that need copyediting and some incoming links, and I hate walking away from a really grotty article...
 * On the castle article - I see it's one of those where Moonriddengirl has been doing her copyvio thing, so we've no idea who was behind it. It seems to me that merger is a no-brainer, we should probably leave it a few days but I'll leave you to do it. Le Deluge (talk) 16:46, 5 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, I'd searched Google Books, maybe just not persistently enough to get a result! I put in that ref for the "Masterplan", with its sections 2.1 and 2.3, but it doesn't support the M. Cross adequately for what's in the article, as I recall. Maybe that should just be trimmed down to a bare statement that the cross is there? About the other stuff, I'll see if I can summon the energy - it's in rather short supply right now, and, as I said, I've been waiting for someone with local knowledge to add something (don't remind me about the caravan park! ;-)), and I don't mind waiting longer. Oh, and that ref that you put in, then I moved, and you moved back again - it really ought to follow a punctuation mark, so maybe that bit needs re-writing? I'd be minded to delete the last sentence in the para for now just to get around it, if there's no ref for it; but there's no harm in the existing pub being mentioned . Cheers. p.s. I just struck that about the ref & punctuation, you already supplied a punctuation mark! Sorry, I didn't notice, and as I say, energy in short supply - it's not that I don't appreciate your input, I do, and I don't mean to sound unhelpful, either! Just not at my best right now. Thanks again. Nortonius (talk) 18:21, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
 * (later:) Hmm, not sure I see what you mean about the sea being the same colour as the land, in the infobox photo - sea looks clear enough to me - sometimes different monitors show the same thing in different ways! But yes, atmosphere is hard to do in a thumbnail - how about replace the infobox photo with a "blue-sky-green-grass" one, and find another spot in the article for the atmospheric one, as you did so well re Parramatta cathedral...? Maybe among the Legends! Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 10:26, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
 * (discussion works much better once one remembers to watchlist a page...) No that ref doesn't cover sentence 2 of the MX stuff, but it's fine for the rest, which should get you past WP:GAN which only requires inline refs for "direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons" - and a unofficial guideline of at least one ref per para. At this stage I would only be thinking in terms of what the article needs to get to GA, it would give you some "reward" for the effort you've put it. Googling reveals no sources for the cathedral masons sentence that don't appear to come from here, so it should probably be struck, even though it's quite plausible and may well be mentioned at the visitor centre or something.
 * On the ref hokey-cokey, don't worry about it - it's just that reliable quoting of refs is sacrosanct, punctuating tags is just a nicety. As for the other stuff, don't worry about it - I've a pretty thick skin.  I feel unhelpful not doing more of this myself but I really must stop getting distracted, I've articles I half-wrote in June that still haven't finished and this photo project is just sprawling like Topsy... I figure some pointers from a set of fresh eyes are better than nothing though. I think the sea/land thing is not a monitor issue, just that it's obvious once you've "got" it and understand the geometry, but until then you assume anything sludgy green is land. BTW, I've flagged this article to the UKgeo guys, so you might get more attention soon. Le Deluge (talk) 11:56, 6 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Absolutely right about a "fresh set of eyes"! I think a reader would have to be a bit dim not to figure the sea/land elements of that photo, with the words "viewed from the west" in the caption and a map underneath - but I'm only quibbling now, for the sake of keeping the photo somewhere in the article - I definitely think you're right that the photo's too gloomy for the infobox, and against what I just quibbled about myself I do think a clearer photo is needed there - dim or not, the reader shouldn't have to work out what an infobox photo is of, so you're absolutely right, I'm sure. I'll try to do something about that today - probably what you suggested earlier. (done!) Thanks for contacting UKgeo - I've been trying to kickstart my brain into thinking about a section "Modern Reculver" (or substitute whatever heading seems better), trying to bash the article into a less haphazard shape after the "History" section, but I think I've got into a wood-for-the-trees situation, having done so many detailed edits... Hopefully more fresh eyes will help! And, yes, I can't deny that it'd be good to see Reculver as a GA...! Thanks again. Nortonius (talk) 12:19, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I really don't think there's too much to say about modern Reculver, partly because most of it seems to have fallen in the sea! Looking at the satellite images, I guess most of those 135 people must have been in the caravans. The pub needs a mention, the caravans and the oysters and I think that's about it. Section headings containing the article title are discouraged, but you could legitimately put that stuff under "Economy" or as modern history. Economy is probably better, it's one of the standard headings and you've got plenty of history already. A couple of sentences on that stuff, make sure every para has a ref, and you're probably ready for GAN. Oh, another random thought, population data through time can help make a general point about the decline of a village (if there is one) - nice and quantitative and reffable, even if it's just from one or two datapoints. Le Deluge (talk) 16:32, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

All good stuff - historical population info (that I can find for free!) is surprising, so maybe problematical - but I'll try to work on the above areas some more today. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 11:18, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Lots more done today, mostly for consistency in refs - really hope I wasn't wasting my time with all those pesky non-breaking spaces! Now, about that GAN... I think I can still see some rough edges, but it might well be time. Nortonius (talk) 20:01, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Hello Le Deluge, I like the tweak/move of the church wall image. Also, understood about tricksy formatting, but I'm seeing some terrible edit link bunching now - didn't we ought to do something about it? It's the only reason I bothered with the formatting, and removing the formatting has certainly broken things for me ...(done - great!) Cheers. p.s. And thanks for cleaning up the Reculver Castle talk page, I was wondering what to do about that! Nortonius (talk) 18:40, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixbunching is a bit of a quick fix, I'm not a huge fan especially when as here you have a widish infobox and a narrow upright image. It'll do for now, but smearing the images through the text would be the preferred option, if it can be done evenly - and perhaps sticking the two views from the south together into one image? I see you're still fiddling, to avoid conflicts I'll leave my twiddles until tonight. There's picky stuff left to be done, much of which could happen whilst waiting for a GA reviewer to get on the case (and it's always good to let them have something to pick up on! ), mostly just tweaking the English although the lead could probably do with a complete rewrite, which I can do, it's best done by someone with fresh eyes and written as a piece, rather than acquiring chunks progressively. There's some niggles, like the 60mya mention in the lead, which really ought to be reffed within a section in the main body if it is to be included at all. But given that the geology is relevant to the landforms and hence the history, it could bear a bit more about it, perhaps the toponymy section could turn into a geography section? You might get some further ideas from WP:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements - obviously a lot of those sections aren't appropriate and would just clutter up the article, but it could provide food for thought.  Le Deluge (talk) 13:52, 16 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, I'm still fiddling! About the lead, and other tweaks, re-write away! Fresh eyes, and all that... Though, the 60mya bit is reffed to an online .pdf, but probably in the wrong place in the article(!), and you have to work it out from a diagram in the .pdf! Took me ages to settle on that though, couldn't seem to find anything else really useful about it online, specifically for Reculver. I'll see if I can cook up a single image with the 2 views from the S. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 14:12, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Reculver Abbey
As one duplicate is merged, so another one arises - created by a barnstorming article creator on 9 September... Not sure what to make of it - the present Reculver article already covers almost everything there is to say about Reculver Abbey, in the "Medieval" section; but, on the other hand, it could be argued that the Reculver article needn't have quite so much on the medieval period, and ordinarily I'd be in favour of an "Abbey" article, because it is a distinct subject from the village, the parish church even... And there is a bit more that could be squeezed into an "Abbey" article, that there isn't really room for in the Reculver article... Images might be a problem, though! Thoughts anyone? Nortonius (talk) 10:24, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm in two minds. I think I'm marginally in favour of merging, the Reculver article isn't so huge and the abbey is so bound up with the history that it would fit here, whilst the amount that can reliably be said about stuff in the Dark Ages ain't huge. One of my tests is "what would a GA on that subject look like?" But I'm not that fussed either way. Le Deluge (talk) 13:52, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I pretty much agree - the "abbey" has an intriguing and, obv, notable history, but it's very limited. Reculver Abbey is just one of dozens and dozens of stub articles created by an editor, not because there's any real point to its separate existence, IMHO. Maybe I'll whack on a merge template - anyway it'd be interesting if someone tips up and wants to make a go of it! Nortonius (talk) 14:12, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Geology
This should give you some pointers and Googlebait. Geologists don't like getting too specific on mya, it's much better to talk about periods - as you can see Reculver is mostly Lower Eocene going down into the top of the Palaeocene, which is known as the Thanetian, you're looking at 54-56mya. The Thanet Sands or Thanet Beds would also be relevant search terms, you should be able to find something on the BGS site or something if you search on Herne Bay or the Wantsum. Le Deluge (talk) 14:45, 16 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Think I'll wait 'til you've had a go at the article - didn't get anywhere searching for Reculver, Herne Bay, Wantsum or even Kent at the BGS site itself, just one thing in the library looked like it could be good, but I can't get to it unless I pay for it. Otherwise, I'm not sure I'm up for learning Geology right now...! We'll see. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 16:25, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Merger proposal - Reculver Abbey
Almost everything that can be said about the "abbey" at Reculver is already, at the time of writing, included in the Reculver article, in the text and in references. The Reculver Abbey article is just one of dozens and dozens of stub articles created by one editor, without reference to its separate viability, hence the merger proposal. Nortonius (talk) 15:04, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

The articles were merged by editor Starzynka, who created the Reculver Abbey article, per this diff. Nortonius (talk) 16:42, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Roman watch tower and lighthouse?
I removed mention of Romans having a watch tower and lighthouse at Reculver per this diff, because I could find no mention of either in Philp, B., The Excavation of the Roman Fort at Reculver, Kent, KARU, 2005, and Philp seems to be the best source for the archaeology of Roman Reculver. Nor have I seen mention of them anywhere else. They were added to the article, strictly speaking unsourced, per this diff of December 2006, though mention of Philp's book was first added in the same edit, by an editor who has been inactive since February 2008. If you can pinpoint an adequate source - maybe I've simply missed them in Philp's book - and add them back, that would be fine by me. Nortonius (talk) 22:44, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the confusion is that the Roman fort was subsequently reused as a watchtower and lighthouse, as per eg Timbs - whether the latter is just a reference to Trinity House putting the vanes on the church I don't know, it's the kind of thing that wouldn't surprise me. On the other hand, it's not inconceivable that the Romans did have a lighthouse there, but I'd tend to the reuse theory. Le Deluge (talk) 13:02, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, Timbs! That'll be where they're from, he uses the words in question, well done and thanks - but, I've looked at him before, and he's deeply untrustworthy! Which will probably be why I'd forgotten that he mentions a watch tower and lighthouse... For example, on the basis of no evidence that I know of (and I did once check through all of this, back when I was wondering what might be done about the Reculver Castle article, which used Timbs as a source IIRC), he has Reculver become a "principal seat of the Saxon Kings" - possible, maybe even likely, but there's no evidence for such a stark statement. Worse, he says that Æthelberht of Kent "retired with his Court" to Reculver, giving his "Palace at Canterbury" to St. Augustine & co., and that he died and was buried at Reculver - Bede is quite clear about what Æthelberht gave to St. Augustine & co. in Canterbury, and he says nothing about the king's "palace"; and, while Bede also says nothing about Æthelberht retiring (i.e. "withdrawing") to Reculver, he explicitly states that the king was buried with his queen, Bertha, in Canterbury! Bede even tells us where in Canterbury his grave was! And so it goes on - Timbs has Ecgberht of Kent give Reculver to "Bapa, a priest and noble", to found the monastery there "in atonement for the murder of [Ecgberht's] two nephews", but we only know about any of this from the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, where the priest is called "Bass", nothing is said of his nobility, and there's no mention of any connection with murdered nephews! There's more, but I'll spare you! Timbs had a lively imagination, then, and a trigger-happy approach to his sources, in view of which... Timbs' first use of "watch-tower" might well be figurative, and, though he's pretty unclear about it, I think from the context of the paragraph that he means us to think of the watch tower and lighthouse as being Roman. Anyway, he gives no sources for his claims about these features, so I'm inclined to let that sleeping dog lie, to put it mildly! Thanks for the input though, good to hear back from you. Nortonius (talk) 21:12, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Reculver was once a market town
From A vision of Britain, "In 1870-72, John Marius Wilson's Imperial Gazetteer of England and Wales described Reculver like this: '[Reculver] ... takes its name from the Romanstation Regulbium; and was once a market-town.


 * Firstly, this leads one to search in National Archives: market & fairs for a grant or a charter which takes us to :


 * "Reculver 6227 1688. A trading centre in the seventh and eighth centuries (S. Kelly, 'Trading Privileges from Eighth-Century England', Early Medieval Europe, 1 (1992), pp. 3–28). Fair 1587, 8 Sept (Harrison, p. 395).
 * M (Grant: other) Thurs; mercatum, gr 6 Aug 1220, by K Hen III to archbp of Canterbury. To be held at the manor of Raculf. Mandate to the sh of Kent (C 60/12 m. 3). 1221, Nova Oblata: S. archbp of Canterbury owed one palfrey for the Thurs market. To be held at the manor of Raculf. (PR, 5 Hen III, p. 208).
 * M (Charter) Thurs; gr 17 Feb 1314, by K Edw II to Walter, archbp of Canterbury (CChR, 1300–26, p. 235). To be held at the manor."
 * See also How to read an entry in the Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs in England & Wales to 1516

-- Senra (talk) 15:29, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Secondly, as Vision of Britain and Letters (2010) both are quoting John Marius Wilson (1870) The imperial gazetteer of England and Wales; ... we should probably look for that too but unfortunately (for me anyway) I cannot find a preview version on line


 * Haha well done! I noted self (offline) only this morning that "Edward II granted Abp. Walter a weekly Thursday market & a yearly fair on feast of St. Giles [at Reculver]", and there you are going and doing the hard work! Great, thanks, we'll work that in somehow! :) Nortonius (talk) 15:43, 24 December 2011 (UTC)


 * My pleasure. The above does beg some questions. If the current (2001) population is only 135 with most of those transients, what happened? How? When? Is this a candidate for Deserted medieval village or List of lost settlements in the United Kingdom? -- Senra (talk) 16:03, 24 December 2011 (UTC)


 * It might well be a candidate for "List of lost settlements...", but... I think the magical shrinking act can easily be attributed to coastal erosion/people upping sticks to Hillborough, which is already covered in the article as you know, as for the Black Death though I have no idea, and I've not seen it mentioned. Now I come to think of it, Caroline Fenwick's The poll taxes of 1377, 1379 and 1381, Part 1 could well help here! :) Though, I remember she's got some records down under the wrong poll tax - but details, details - we can worry about that later. p.s. How long is this article going to be?! Nortonius (talk) 16:21, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
 * None of the above is for GA. I am sorry if this is diverting you from the GA. I will stop digging (for now).
 * [I've started so I'll finish, he he] Besides, I see only two sentences: "The earliest record of a market in Reculver is 6 Aug 1220, granted for Thursdays by Henry III to the archbishop of Canterbury. A charter for a Thursday market was subsequently granted by Edward II to Walter, archbishop of Canterbury, on 17 February 1314". These details all help with the compliance of the article to FA criteria 1b (comprehensiveness). After GA, keep putting (relevant) stuff in. If you break FA criteria 4 (length), you can trim detail without sacrificing coverage according to summary style. Not a concern for now :) Incidentally, I recall discussing at length an attempt to retain "Reculver remained an unusually large parish ..." and now I find it had a market. Whilst my point about WP:PEA still stands, the grant of a market would imply that unusually large has more merit than I at first thought. You could thus use the market (and fair) to help qualify an attributed "... 'unusually large' parish"
 * -- Senra (talk) 17:25, 24 December 2011 (UTC)


 * All good stuff! :) But don't worry, plenty of things have a way of diverting me from GA! Though, I'll probably still be editing tomorrow, and the day after that, and...! Nortonius (talk) 17:36, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

As requested...
Lead:
 * "supposedly after daughters of Geoffrey St Clare.." Linkage?
 * I haven't found any mention of him, outside the legend related to the Twin Sisters - he may be pseudo-historical, or maybe I don't know my 15th century history! He might not survive FA, though I'd love to track him down if I can... Nortonius (talk) 10:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)


 * "Among notable residents was Robert Hunt, who celebrated the first Christian service of holy communion in what is now the United States of America, in 1607." ... this is the best you can do for notable residents? Suggest just not putting it in the lead then.
 * Ah ok, I thought that sounded pretty notable! Given that the place hardly exists any more, and even fellow Brits whom I know IRL hadn't heard of it, it's very notable for Reculver! But I can see that it might not be all that notable otherwise. Still, I'm surprised. Well, there's already mention in the lead of a king of Kent who was buried at Reculver, so I'll take Hunt out of the lead. Nortonius (talk) 10:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

General:
 * Note Template:Efn which makes explanatory footnotes much easier.
 * Ah, thanks for the tip, I'm not familiar with that one: I'll have a play with it. Nortonius (talk) 10:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Hmm, Template:Efn doesn't look appropriate here, as it marks "efns" in the text alphabetically, but there are 53 of them at the time of writing! Am I missing something? Nortonius (talk) 11:03, 28 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Generally, it's better to not use direct quotations much. I suggest rewording many of the quotations such as "it is clear that significant Roman structures and features existed" and "commanding an extensive view on all sides". As an example - the first could be paraphrased as "Roman forts were normally accompanied by a civilian settlement, or "vicus", and it is clear that such structures outside the north and west sides of the fort existed, mostly in areas now lost to the sea,...." The second could be "...and allowed observation from the fort on all sides."
 * Ok, on the whole that's easy to fix - I may have got quotation fever from the GAN... I do love direct quotations though, especially for things that might otherwise be words to watch, and block quotations seem a good way to go to me, when appropriate: I'll go through and try fixing everything else. Nortonius (talk) 10:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Who said that Aethelbert moved his royal court here?
 * Ah, just about anyone writing about Reculver before a point in the 20th century! You're suggesting someone should be named and shamed in the article? Easily done. It's legendary stuff, associated with him supposedly having been buried at Reculver, whereas Bede quite clearly says he was buried at Canterbury. Nortonius (talk) 10:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)


 * That's as far as I got before the constant quotations started making it hard for me to read. Strongly suggest rewording most of them in the article text to make it easier to read. Otherwise, it reads reasonably well, and seems well researched. (I'm not watching this page as I have way too many pages watchlisted already). Ealdgyth - Talk 02:10, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok - sorry about the quotations, then: if they bothered you, I'd better fix them! And, thank you very much for having a look! Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 10:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Human sacrifice
The suggestion that the bones of children found in the Roman remains are indicative of human sacrifice is highly dubious. Though an authority is cited, it is not a good one. After the Roman conquest of Britain human sacrifice was banned (indeed, a classic way of shocking the Romans was talk of human sacrifice - Diodorus, Strabo and Tacitus all lent fascination to their histories by ghoulishly recounting the Druids' involvement in it, and one of the main problems the Roman authorities had with the Christians in the early centuries AD was that reports of the Mass erroneously suggested that human sacrifice was taking place). See, for example, The Gods of the Celts by Miranda Green - the Head of Research in Humanities at the University of Wales, Newport, with a huge string of publications in archaeology, and described by the Antiquaries' Journal as "one of our leading authorities on Celtic religion", or pp 233-4 of the fully authoritative Religions of Rome: vol I - A History by Mary Beard, John North and Simon Price (1998). I suggest that observation is removed. However, the Romans did routinely expose unwanted babies, which would seem a plausible explanation for the find which is not mentioned in this article, though I have not seen a published source of local reference. Deipnosophista (talk) 18:08, 21 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The sentence in full reads: "It is unknown whether the babies were selected for burial because they were already dead, perhaps stillborn, or if they were killed for the purpose, but they were probably buried in the buildings as ritual sacrifices." It doesn't say that the bones are indicative of human sacrifice in the sense of killings expressly for the purpose, merely that it's one possibility among others; and the associated footnote already makes mention of human sacrifice being "officially condemned". Regarding exposure, these infants' remains were found inserted within stone structures, which to be honest doesn't suggest exposure to me, any more than it seems to have done to the archaeologist in charge, Brian Philp. As for the cited authority, presumably you refer to Ralph Merrifield? I'd say he's an excellent authority. I'm curious to know why you would say otherwise. I don't doubt Miranda Green's credentials, but this article cites sources which are directly relevant here. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 19:31, 21 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I've added to the reference above. But I've hunted round a bit more and in addition recall a number of incidences of babies being buried in the foundations of mediaeval buildings, while my very Miranda Green is quoted in 2002 as citing various examples persisting into Roman times (http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba69/feat2.shtml), and there is a whole (mediaeval) article at http://cuni.academia.edu/Martin%C4%8Cechura/Papers/1091479/Christian_Non-christian_or_Pagan_The_Burials_of_newborns_as_the_source_to_understanding_of_medieval_and_postmedieval_mentality.  I don't challenge Merrifield as an archaeologist of his day, but understanding of several areas, including religion, has moved on quite fast since then, and I still feel that the Merrifield remark goes beyond the evidence, and that a more hesitant attribution would give a fairer picture.  I should prefer wording such as "they may have been buried there for ritual or magical reasons" Deipnosophista (talk) 18:58, 22 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi, yes I was thinking much the same thing – "may have been" instead of "probably" felt like it might prove to be a good compromise. So, understood about Merrifield and the passing of time; but he knew his stuff as it was then and he comments specifically on Reculver. Thing for me is, some of the Reculver infants were found in the foundations, some were found sealed up in openings made into existing walls, very much as cats, shoes and so-on are found in medieval buildings, so these were very deliberate placings made with some purpose in mind. As well as a change from "probably" to "perhaps", maybe you can find a balancing quotation to put in the footnote, something about the wider picture in current thinking to go alongside Merrifield? Actually I can put the relevant sections from the archaeological report (by Philp) up here for you if you like? It wouldn't take me too long, and it might help you tie the archaeology in with what you know of current thinking. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 21:00, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I just read the piece you linked from British Archaeology, and it speaks of ritual infant burials in Roman Britain much like those found at Reculver – it seems to support Merrifield? I've also read (as best I could!) the piece by Martin Čechura, but the best I could make of it was a discussion of how infants were buried in a Christian context, mainly according to economic status, which isn't relevant to the Reculver infants. It seems I can't get sight of the pages you specify in Beard, North & Price, anything else that might help me see where you're coming from? Nortonius (talk) 13:42, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Useful quote?
John Blair, The Church in Anglo-Saxon Society, p. 361: "In about 1030 the ancient Kentish minster of Reculver, now Archbishop Æthelnoth's property, housed some kind of Flemish religious community under a dean named Giuchard, though part of its demesne was leased to archiepiscopal thegns." Dudley Miles (talk) 12:04, 29 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much Dudley Miles, that's very kind of you! :o) I've added the reference to St Mary's Church, Reculver, and mention of demesne makes me think I'll try to work it in here too – cheers! Nortonius (talk) 12:55, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Primary sources and FAC
I've been thinking about last summer's abortive FAC for this article, and how it seemed to progress very well towards a pass, but for concerns that were raised during the source review. The main sticking point was the use as sources of documents described in detail on the E 179 Database. I maintained that the Database was a secondary source, but others approached it as a collection of primary sources. I've just now had another look at uses of the E 179 database in the article in conjunction with what is said about WP policy in handling primary sources, and I still fail to see a problem. The relevant section at WP:PRIMARY reads: ": Unless restricted by another policy, reliable primary sources may be used in Wikipedia; but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source. Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so." Looking again at how E 179 documents are handled in this article, I'm convinced that at no point are they analysed, synthesised, interpreted or evaluated. All passages dependent on the Database are direct statements of what the documents say.

Beyond that, the reliability of the documents themselves was called into question. The descriptions of the documents on the Database make it clear that each was drawn up according to statutory instructions issued by Parliament. I thought last summer, and still think now, that doubting the reliability of these documents is absurd. They are records of central government taxation, and were accepted as such at the Exchequer. I can't think of anything that might make these documents more reliable. If those who objected to the FAC for this article for the reasons I've set out here (and I hope that I've described them accurately) were to have another look at the article and find that they now agree with my assessment, I may be tempted to stick my head above the parapet for another stab at an FAC. If not, then I have decided that I shall leave it alone. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 23:17, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Any views from User:Hchc2009, who raised the issue? Dudley Miles (talk) 23:50, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I remain very cautious about using primary medieval documents as the basis to build arguments in a Wikipedia article, including making editorial judgements about the reliability of those primary documents and their authors. As I mentioned in my comments in the previous review, this is fundamentally different from the position one would take in writing a professional historical piece off-wiki, where taking primary sources and using them to build an historical picture would be entirely appropriate. I continue to believe that we should be using reliable secondary sources, in this case drawing on professional historians who have used the primary sources to produce a high-quality, secondary account of historical events. Nortonious, I'd add that I wouldn't want to discourage you from taking it back to FAC on the basis of my views alone though. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:28, 7 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks both. User:Hchc2009, that's very democratic of you, and I do appreciate the sentiment, but I won't be putting myself through that experience again if your views are unchanged, as you know they were what stalled the FAC – just as you wouldn't discourage me, I can hardly expect you to keep mum! I genuinely don't see why anyone would think medieval administrative records of central government are less reliable than modern ones – these are not chronicles or other one-offs but pro-forma products of a bureaucratic machine – but there it is. Thanks again, take care. Nortonius (talk) 10:22, 7 March 2015 (UTC)


 * One solution adopted by some editors is to publish their research in a peer reviewed journal and then cite it in the article. This is legitimate if the editor does not give undue weight to their own work. You must have enough for a good journal article. Dudley Miles (talk) 11:31, 7 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, thanks Dudley, that does seem to be a realistic prospect. It's just the usual issue of time and energy being in short supply. We shall see... Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 17:42, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 8 one external links on Reculver. Please take a moment to review my edit. You may add after the link to keep me from modifying it, if I keep adding bad data, but formatting bugs should be reported instead. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether, but should be used as a last resort. I made the following changes:
 * Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/coastguard.htm
 * Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.canterbury.gov.uk/main.cfm?objectid=2194
 * Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/programmes/peoplesmuseum/week2_01.shtml
 * Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.spitfiremuseum.org.uk/spitfire/other.htm
 * Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/taxation-before-1689.htm
 * Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.bbc.co.uk/kent/weather/features/kent_weather2.shtml
 * Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.canterbury.gov.uk/main.cfm?objectid=3552
 * Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.canterbury.gov.uk/main.cfm?objectid=2026

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 15:23, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

March 2017
There was a brief flurry of editing activity on the article on 10 March,, and I notice that the page received more than double its 30-day average number of views that day too – that's only 116 views, but still a noticeable blip, even if it reflects only the editing activity. Maybe it was just one of those things, but curiosity drives me to ask if there was any particular reason for it – I've searched the web for clues but found nothing, did I miss some event or news item involving Reculver? I'd be grateful if, or  would spare a moment to satisfy my curiosity! TIA Nortonius (talk) 12:50, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
 * No mystery—the Estates Manager of Trinity House* posted on the Help Desk to complain about the error, so a number of HD helpers will have taken a look. &#8209; Iridescent 14:05, 12 March 2017 (UTC) * Technically "someone claiming to be the Estates Manager of Trinity House" as we can't prove the identity of anyone on Wikipedia without going via OTRS, but that's an extremely odd thing for anyone else to be impersonating and the IP is registered as owned by Trinity House. &#8209; Iridescent 14:05, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
 * It's also worth googling "10 March 2017 Reculver". It brings up several news articles and events which would have drawn attention to Reculver on that date. One of them is a school trip to Reculver, scheduled for that date Beths Grammar School, letter to parents about 10 March 2017 school trip to Reculver.


 * Oh that is interesting,, thank you! Understood about the uncertain but probable ID of the "complainant". So they're saying that Wilmott 2012, p. 26, is incorrect. That's certainly something I'd like to fix if true, but, despite appearances from the huge number of sources in the Bibliography here, information about Reculver is understandably thin on the ground. I wonder if the complainant might be persuaded to supply a WP:RS. I'll have a look for one myself in the meantime, but I won't be holding my breath. And thanks for the suggestion , I did try that, and trying again now, and persevering to the third page of Google results, I don't see that! Annoying. Thanks both. Nortonius (talk) 14:20, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Probably more difficult than it sounds, as it's always hard to cite what any given body isn't responsible for since any publication is quite reasonably only going to list what they do, not what they don't. Council minutes are likely to be your best bet, as there will probably be a record somewhere of a councillor grumbling about Trinity House not footing the bill. &#8209; Iridescent 14:25, 12 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Believe me, it sounds very difficult to me! But that's a good tip, thanks again. Nortonius (talk) 14:30, 12 March 2017 (UTC)


 * FWIW, putting through Google brings up numerous documents indicating that the sea defences are maintained by Canterbury District, although given the difficulty of proving a negative that's not concrete evidence that Trinity House aren't at least footing part of the bill. &#8209; Iridescent 14:35, 12 March 2017 (UTC)


 * @Nortonius, found a smoking gun—"Trinity House initially built groynes around the coast to prevent further erosion, supplementing this with a facing of ragstone blocks around the cliff in 1866. The coastal defences, which abut the northern side of the area in EH care and consist of sea walls, groynes and beach recharge schemes, are owned and maintained by the EA. The ragstone apron immediately to the north of St Mary’s Church is regularly maintained by EH." &#8209; Iridescent 14:42, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Oh for goodness' sake – Wilmott 2012 is an EH publication! I swear, the world is run by idiots these days. (no hostages to fortune there, as I don't run the world!) Thanks so much for your efforts, I'll have a spot of lunch and then have a stab at pleasing our complainant. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 14:48, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

✅ – just so you know. If anything like that arises, do feel free to ping me. Thanks again. Nortonius (talk) 15:59, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Obviously I missed a bit, thanks for bringing that to my attention through your edit. I hope it's all in good order now ...? Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 17:11, 12 March 2017 (UTC)