Talk:Red Crystal

Copy & Paste
I don't want to be picky, but the text of this article is a copy&paste from the article about the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement. Though I don't mind it, one could argue about a possible violation of the GNU FDL because the source is mentioned nowhere. Also, the need for such a duplication can be questioned. --Uwe 09:39, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Uwe, the lettering was edited to bring it to present tense. --Expatkiwi

Defaced
Any particular reason "defaced" (here, in quotes for quotes sake) is in quotes itself in the article? While that's not a common meaning, it is a valid use of the word. Is it just in scare quotes to distract from the word's negative connotation in ordinary usage? Johndodd 22:39, 8 December 2005 (UTC)


 * You're right. There needn't be the inverted commas.  I've removed them.  Jimp 9Dec05

Racist external links
The current external links takes visitors to the website of National Vanguard, a white supremicist group. These links are totally unneccesary considering there are others stories on this issue from serious sources on the internet. I removed the links. --Nikostar 19:38, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

These links were also added to Protocol III, where they were removed. – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs, blog) 19:52, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Muslim and Arab Opposition
"Other than Cuba and China, most of the dissent against the use of the Red Crystal symbol came from Arab and Muslim states." Where does this fact come from, and why was it added later?
 * The Arab and Muslim states have opposed the entry of the Magen David Adom into the International Red Cross movement for over a half century. They are fairly adamant about it. It was only the American funding boycott that forced the hand of the international movement.ScottAdler 03:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Bad article name, dupe info, strange images, etc.
"The Red Crystal flag is the new &hellip;  emblem " That pretty much says it all. What would have been better is probably Red Crystal, which redirects to Protocol III, which has a lot of the same information this article has. We don't have Red Cross flag, we have Red Cross (symbol)...but Red Crescent (symbol) redirects back to Red Cross (symbol), which also covers the Red Crystal, so we have even more dupe info.

Perhaps we should make Protocol III a stub (and I have doubts about that article name, too), then create a new article something like Red Cross emblems or Red Cross protective emblems and redirect all the others to it.

Also I haven't checked who's handling the "flag" images, but as you can see by (e.g.) Image:Croixrouge logos.jpg and Image:Red-crystal-pic.jpg, the "flags" for these emblems don't seem to usually be standard 2:3 - they seem to be more often square, in the traditional of the flag of Switzerland which the original Red Cross was spawned from. Even if using the emblems on 2:3ish flags is somewhat popular (and I'm sure it is), it's clearly not what official-types lean towards. Also despite this article's title, all the information in all the articles is rather accurately on "emblems", not flags, so having flag images (and even having 'flag' in the image filenames) is strange. &brvbar; Reisio 14:57, 9 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The symbols are explained in much more detail in the article about the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement where they belong. So one could argue that the article Red Cross (symbol) is an unnecessary duplication as well. In addition to that, it's incomplete because it doesn't mention the Red Lion with Sun. All of these articles are classic examples of Avoiding_common_mistakes, section "Making redundant articles". --Uwe 15:22, 9 December 2005 (UTC)


 * When I started this page, I was not aware of the other articles. So perhaps it would be better to rename this page, or to simply have it absorbed into other pages.  Putting in the defaced flags though was original and I'd rather have those emblems preserved on WIKIPEDIA, even if this page goes.  Expatkiwi

Opposition
Do we have any idea why the 57 opposing states opposed? It seems like an obvious question that isn't addressed in the article.

It was 27 opposed, 57 absent at the vote. Why they did not show up, I don't know.


 * Good question. If there was that much opposition to such a proposal, one wonders how do they ever settle a decision on pretty much anything else. I would personally like to see some sort of official (or even unofficial) explanation for any of the opposing votes. Luis Dantas 12:39, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Lion and Sun Image
I have reverted the removal of the image Red Lion and Sun inside the Crystal. While recognizing that no member society currently uses the Lion and Sun, it is still an officially recognized protection symbol, and just as legitimate as the Cross and the Crescent under international law. I therefore see no reason why the image should be deleted--perhaps a note in the caption or text would be more appropriate. If you disagree, perhaps you could outline the reasons here?

--Craigkbryant 19:39, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

The New York Sun reports here that North Korea and Cuba were among non-Muslim countries which voted against against the Red Crystal symbol in this story[] However, I read somewhere else that China also voted against the symbol but can find no on-line links for that story. By the Way, Muslim Turkey voted for the Red Crystal symbol. Regards --Leoboudv 01:32, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

What are the signs used in south east Asia?


 * >By the Way, Muslim Turkey voted for the Red Crystal symbol


 * For your information: Turkey is NOT a muslim country. It is a declaredly atheist military dictatorship, where the council of army generals holds the effective political power and the government can only do what the generals approve of. The turkish army has removed a dozen cabinets it didn't like during the last decades. Only army-approved parties may run at the turkish elections. In fact muslim veils are banned in Turkey, that shows the very atheist nature of Turkey, against the wish of its own population, which is overwhelmingly composed of religious muslim people.


 * I can't grasp why the jews couldn't re-use the existing lion symbol? The names Levi and Loewe (meaning desert lion) are among the most common jewish names. In fact the zionist Israel was the biggest supporter of the iranian shahdom, before Khomeini's revolution ousted the tyrann. So it would be easy and logical for the jews to "recycle" the lion symbol and use it themselves. There is no need to invent a new one. That is why so many muslim countries are opposed to the unnecessarily invented new red romboid.


 * Not to mention that Israel is among the biggest violators of Red Cross Movement principles. This is also why muslim countries are opposed to the new symbol as a gift to zionism. The very ideas and refined practices of many-year long detentions and incommunicando holdings without charge or trial were actually imported from Israel to the USA post 9/11, to be turned into Gitmo and the currently scandalous eastern european CIA airtaxi prisons. This is only an expansion of the actions that the zionist empire has been doing against palestinian prisoners for many years, who are never charged just held by the thousands (8000 of them at least).


 * The Red Crystal is a gift or prize to Israel which it does not deserve, since Israel is among the few most vocally criticized countries as opposed by the Red Cross Movement: for practices of combat helicopter murders, widespread house and arab farm demolitions, land grab fences, daily border control humiliations and continous attempts to forcibly change the ethnical standing of the Holy Land areas by evicting arabs and muslims and forcing them to live in giant prison camps like the Gaza county, where the many-many arab people live like tunas in the can. Israel should not have been given the new symbol until it pulls back to the 1967 borders and Palestinian State is created, because now the new Red Romboid symbol only shows the weakness and humiliation of the RC and the UN, which Israel continues to ignore at will, but is able to force to accept the new symbol because of its financial and military might. But nobody dares to say no to Israel because it has 400 nuclear bombs which it made at Dimona. 195.70.32.136 16:10, 10 December 2005 (UTC)


 * And Israel blows up buses, takes hostages, and poisons wells, and spits on the sidewalk, etc., etc., etc. -- We've heard that all before. It's POV and belongs elsewhere, perhaps on a propaganda site.ScottAdler 04:13, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Turkey does not need a 'Muslim' based government to be identified as a Muslim country. 98% of the population of Turkey is Muslim, therefore, it is known as a Muslim country (even though Islam isn't institutionalized)

The Red Crystal adoption was not due to only the issue of Jewish non-membership, there were other cases also. And this issue is not recent, definitely not something that IFRC/ICRC started looking at after 9/11, the adoption of a new emblem has been debated for nearly 30 years now.

You say, ‘gift to the Israel etc. when clearly you don’t understand the nature of RC/RC Movement. One of the guiding principles of Universality, meaning inclusion of all. Many of the crimes you mention might or might not be true, but that is irrelevant, when we can sit here and site thousands of crimes any country has committed.

I think you should leave your clear dissatisfaction with Israel, due to unrelated events, outside when entering into a discussion on the IFRC/ICRC article. 70.68.253.116 17:40, 10 December 2005 (UTC) Anonymous


 * I agree. The Red Crystal is not a gift to Israel. In addition to enabling recognition of Magen David Adom by the ICRC, the Red Crystal also solves an emblem issue for the national society of Kasachstan and an emblem and membership issue for the national society of Eritrea. And it can be of great value in an armed conflict where the Red Cross and the Red Crescent don't provide sufficient protection for what religious reason ever. That's also the very reason why the Red Crystal was created - it's supposed to be a lasting solution for ANY possible emblem issue. Neither adoption of the Red Lion with Sun by Israel nor recognition of the Red Shield of David would have been of any help for the national societies of Kasachstan or Eritrea, or for a soldier who gets involved in a conflict where neither the Cross nor the Crescent receive sufficient respect. The Red Crystal was neither a gift for Israel nor does it discriminate against Israel as some people argue. It's simply a solution which goes far beyond the emblem and membership problems of Magen David Adom. --Uwe 23:54, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I created the earlier post about N. Korea, China and Cuba voting against the Red Crystal emblem and included a NY Sun link but it has already timed out. Fortunately, I have now located this current SwissInfo coverage on the vote and it confirms that these 3 non Arab/Muslim states voted against this symbol's use. [1] According to the story, the Swiss felt 'betrayed' that the vote was not unanimous because they had been in prolonged negotiations with the Muslim bloc of nations. Maybe they were naive on the fractious nature of Mid-East diplomacy. Regards. Leoboudv 21:37, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Vexillology link
Thanks for adding the link to the vexillology article. It makes a lot more sense now that people know what that is. ^_^ Cernen 00:08, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Red Crystal looks like Ingwaz Rune
The Red Crystal looks awfully familiar. It looks exactly like the Ingwaz rune in the Elder Futhark. So I cannot see why it would be religion-neutral, since the runes are used by Asatruar and other German Neo-Pagans.


 * The representations of Ingwaz that I have seen ( for instance, look for "ng") tend to be drawn with a considerably thinner line than the Red Crystal, and are also less close to a perfect square (being a bit wider than they are high). I can see the resemblance, however.
 * Even so, I like the Diamond; I feel it is sufficiently difficult to mistake with the rune, while being easy to draw even in emergency situations and having a nice empty field in the center for the inclusion of a Red Crescent, David Shield or Cross. Other shapes are either too complex, too associated with influential religions or nations, or just too plain to actually work. Luis Dantas 22:12, 24 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Does the Ingwatz have some specific meaning in Asatru or is it just a letter of the Futhark? I mean, an individual kanji of Japanese would not have a Shinto religious connotation just because it happens to be a part of the writing system used by the adherents of that religion. --Agamemnon2 08:51, 28 December 2005 (UTC)


 * It is my understanding that each and every rune has a rich meaning. That is why they are runes in the first place. Luis Dantas 18:54, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * And the Red Cross is awfully similar to the Naudiz rune...
 * I think a distinction needs to be made here. Yes, the Ingwaz is a symbol used in the faiths in question, however it is not the iconic symbol of them. For example, Asatru would be more appropriately represented by a Red Valknut.
 * The Geneva Conventions sought out a symbol that the average person would not associate with a particular religion. Just because a faith uses it does not mean that the public associates the symbol with the faith. --Roninbk 12:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Good point. Luis Dantas 13:16, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I am just simply shocked
I'm writing in respond to number 7 "lion and sun symbol".

I will respond one by one to each quote, unlike the writer I would not go into speculations and hate, only truth.

1. "I can't grasp why the jews couldn't re-use the existing lion symbol? The names Levi and Loewe (meaning desert lion) are among the most common jewish names. In fact the zionist Israel was the biggest supporter of the iranian shahdom, before Khomeini's revolution ousted the tyrann. So it would be easy and logical for the jews to "recycle" the lion symbol and use it themselves. There is no need to invent a new one. That is why so many muslim countries are opposed to the unnecessarily invented new red romboid."

Firstly Levi means a lion-cub, Arie is a lion. Also Levi is a branch of the 12 tribes of Israel which had no land, nor wealth of its own, a state us jewish, renament of Yehuda tribe (and not Levi tribe), would not won't to live in. Also this tribe was the workforce of the Grand-Temple in Jerusalem, and were given only bread and water to eat, certinely not a sign to humanetrianism and aid. Furthor more, as a Jew I would like to use my own symbols - The Magen-David (Shield of David), Just the way Muslims use there symbol of Faith. Why do I, as a jew, has to use a symbol which is not mine, jsut to make others happy. The spirit of humanitarism is also that I could practice my belief and religion without fear or limitation, and that Includes the Use of the Magen-David, just like the Muslims use The Red Crescent. To even suggest that Jews would be forced, sort o' speak, to use a diferent symbol than its own is against the principles of human-rights and freedom of mind, religion and belife. Levi is among the most common surnames for Jewish people, representing families alledgely descending from Levi-tribe thta married Yehuda-tribe, It is however not a very common name for a private name, please do check your knowledge up before speaking.

2. "Not to mention that Israel is among the biggest violators of Red Cross Movement principles. This is also why muslim countries are opposed to the new symbol as a gift to zionism."

Please do not confuse Jews with Zionism, as many do. Some jews are actually anti-Zionists, and also some Zionists are not Jews, but christians. It is true that Israel is doing harsh things, but we are not the only ones. Also at war, sometimes the need of security overweights the need ofr humanetianism - I would rather kill the die myself, but that is for each to descide. You could not hold the crimes of the state and army to all the citizens, a growing number of Israelies are opposing these actions, and many young people refuse to draft on the behafe of Pacifoism and love of humans.

3. "The very ideas and refined practices of many-year long detentions and incommunicando holdings without charge or trial were actually imported from Israel to the USA post 9/11, to be turned into Gitmo and the currently scandalous eastern european CIA airtaxi prisons."

The practice of sending people to kill others by mass terrorism and suicide bombing has been brought to this world by Muslim extreemists (though I do still belive most Muslims are good people with no such intentions, also I belive Muslims and Jews CAN live together in peace). Such harsh enemies requires harsh use of un-humaneterian acts, otherwise Israel would have been destroyed long long ago. I always said that a person who carries bombs on his body and wish to kill thousands of civilians, soldiers, women and children, some but a few weeks old, does not deserve to be even called a human, much less be treated as one. How can you ask Israel to treat with care and love people who wish to murder in such horrors. Has any of your family members died in suicide bombing? Mine did. I saw the flesh of my uncles torn to parts, scattered all over the street, his hand was barely kept whole. I saw blood runing, busses of children burned and bombed to the core, the people who do this kind of actions deserve not to be among human society, not even bare the nme "human". Do you honnestly belive Israel would have tortured and incarserated so many arabs if they would not have tried to bomb us like htis? At '48 when Israel declaired Independince the arabs instantly attacked her, with not even ONE attapt to make peace with the Jews, and why? Because they were poisoned with hate by the few extreemist of the Muslim world. A shame how such a beutiful religion is being swept to such actions of horror.

4. "This is only an expansion of the actions that the zionist empire has been doing against palestinian prisoners for many years, who are never charged just held by the thousands (8000 of them at least)."

There is a zionism empire? Why was I not Informed? Check your knowledge of world politics, on what states do the zionists control but, barely, themselves?

Palestinian Security prisoners are all people who admitted, before incarsceration, of commiting aid to suicide bombing. There are also israely prisoners held with no trial nor charges, just by pure susspitions they planned a terrorism against Arabs, which is in Israel considered an act of treason. Did you know that? No... Becuose you let yourself be poised by extreemists and hate-filled voices. Becouse your obviuos Ignorance clouds you eyes. A man who aids someone commit suiscide bombings in which terrorist kill houndreds of people deserve fair trial? Is that the world you wish to creat? a world of terrorism and horrors of war, with no punishment? A man who aid in commiting such horribnle actions does not deserve fair trial... he deserves execution...

5. "The Red Crystal is a gift or prize to Israel"

Really? and the alowment of use of the red crescent is what? Why can't we use a symbol which is equally of right as the crescent? why does one religion is being put below others? Is this what the red cross and red crescent all about?

6. "for practices of combat helicopter murders, widespread house and arab farm demolitions, land grab fences, daily border control humiliations" Nessecery acts in the reallity of people whi try to kill thousands of innocent civilians through suicide bombing.

7."evicting arabs and muslims and forcing them to live in giant prison camps like the Gaza county, where the many-many arab people live like tunas in the can."

This is historacly not true. In '48 when the state of Israel was declaired, our scroll of decleration called the Israeli arabs to live among us as full equal citizens, thousands of arabs took there things and abandoned there houses, running to other arab countries - who by the way refused to accept them (so we're the bad guys, right?). A lot of arabs have been granted permission to return to there old lands, or being compensated instead - hundreds refused. these are, by the way, not prison camps but refugee camps - these palestinians were thrown out by the arab world, unaccepted to any arab country.

8. "Israel should not have been given the new symbol until it pulls back to the 1967 borders and Palestinian State is created"

Do you truely belive that if Israel would have pulled back to '67's borders the terrorism would have stopped? Why does Israel need to give prizes to a population that support the criminal, horribale, un-humanaterian acts the suicide bombing is. Did you knew thta palestinian terrorist in 1999 infeltrated into a jewish village and shot 5 children while they wre sleeping?! Did you know thta hundreds of children and women, civilians and non-jewish (even Muslim arabs!!!) are beign slaughtered and murdered by the thousands over the years? Did you know that in Haifa muslim arabs and jewishs live side by side, door by door in love and respect, in honor and acceptence? Did you know that in Israel there are iver 500 buisnesses that are co-owened by both Jewish and Muslims. My Grandmother, who lived in Haifa, had numrous arab friends, some Muslims. They are all wonderfull people.

I belive Muslims, in the Majority, are not extreemists. Most Muslims, so I believe, can live side-by-side with Jews in love and acceptence. It is to my shame that the minoprity of extreemists of the Muslim world poise the minds of youth. Just like I don't call all Muslims "terrorists", and as I don't say all of them are bad, so do you need to learn and understand that most Jews do not hate arabs, we just want to live a quite peacefull lives.

9. "But nobody dares to say no to Israel because it has 400 nuclear bombs which it made at Dimona" Oh really? and USA and Russia do not have nuclear bombs? In thousands?

10. A final word. It is to my great grief that I see such hatered written here be this person. It is a shame the way minds are poised to see things one sidedly. I in my heart truely hope that one day Jews and arabs will learn to live side-by-side with love, understanding and respect, as they once did. I have now tears in my eyes that I see such hatred in this world. Iinvite the writer of comment number 7 on this page to try and find in his heart the courage and love to make this world less full of hate. Try to see that not all Jews are bad, that not all Muslims should hate Jews, that the two sons of ABraham, our joint father, should live together in peace and love. I have seen in my own eyes the horror that war and hate give birth to - the sluaghter and killing of children and babies, of women and men, civilians and innocent by-passers, lost in a blaze of fire and blood. I have seen the torn flesh of bombed budies of both arabs and Jews in bus-bombings in Haifa. I was in houses of mourners both Jewish and Muslim - and from personal expirience - we bleed the same blood, we cry the same tears - but we can also hug the same hugs and love the same love. Make this world a better place not through political argues and state-wide hate, make this world a better place through understanding and love and of trying to live together, and mostof all make this world a better place by acceptence. I have arab friends, I have Muslim friends - from Israel, form Iran, from europe - but I'm still a Jew. Can you not try to be still an Islamic iwthout the hate to the entire Jewish world (Though I do agree with you that some Jews, and some israelies, as are some muslims and arabs are not worthy of such a better world).

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Xonox (talk • contribs) 13:27, 26 February 2006

Color?
There are many different colors used. Like this one Image:Flag of the Red Crystal.svg or this one Image:Red-cross-crystal.svg. Even the ICRC uses different colors. So which color is correct? WP 06:48, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * All the examples you mention are unequivocally shades of red, so I do not see where the problem lies. AFAIK there is no specific "correct" or "official" shade of red for the red emblems, nor do I think there is need for one. Luis Dantas 11:16, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Should this page be merged with...
As the article is a redirect, should not this talk page be merged or moved to: Talk:Emblems of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement? S w a r m  I n t e r n a t i o n a l e  05:55, 10 December 2007 (UTC)