Talk:Red Ensign/Archive 1


 * 2+�;���scist comment==

I have cut the following from the article:


 * The Red Ensign is a cherished symbol, it was used from 1867-1964 AD. It is not a symbol of hate, in any fashion.  I strenuously object to the above reference, and question the motives of the individual who posted this "reference".


 * For a full account of the process that changed the usage of the Canadian Red Ensign (pre-1964 AD), to the Canadian Maple Leaf (post-1965 AD), please consult the following site,


 * "The Great Canadian Flag Debate"


 * http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-73-80/politics_economy/canada_flag/


 * The adoption of the present Maple Leaf Flag was highly controversial in 1964 AD, and still is 40 years later. Many people in Canada today (pre-domiantly in English-Canada), have never accepted the Maple Leaf Flag, and still consider (and use) the Canadian Red Ensign as their "Canadian Flag".

I have moved ArmchairVexillologistDon's addition to the talk page because it is improperly worded for the encyclopedia (especially the use of first-person pronouns). However, I do support ArmchairVexillologistDon's protest. We should delete the neo-fascist comment unless it can be supported with a citation or two. Indefatigable 00:08, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Nov 27, 2004 AD

AndyL

I formally complain,... A SECOND TIME ABOUT THIS. I will not have the Canadian Red Ensign Slandered in this fashion WHO POSTED THESE FACIST CLAIMS? You did AndyL.

Paul Fromm Recently, he has tried to revive use of the Red Ensign flag and his political events and rallies usually have the old Canadian flag prominently displayed.

So what?

AndyL I'm not going to drop this. What is your obsession with linking the Canadian Red Ensign to a bunch of Facist nutbars?

ArmchairVexillologistDon

(cur) (last) 09:13, 21 Nov 2004 AndyL (Canada) (cur) (last) 09:12, 21 Nov 2004 AndyL (Canada)

In recent years many far-right and neo-Nazi groups in Canada, particularly those affiliated to Paul Fromm, have adopted the Canadian Red Ensign as a symbol of their movement meant to emphasise what they assert lis their adherence to traditional Canadian values.

TO SPEED THINGS UP, THIS WAS POSTED as well on RED ENSIGN page

AndyL

I don't like YOU CARELESSLY linking the Canadian Red Ensign to Facist Groups. This is the second time you've done this.

Based on what? This picture below?

AndyL, you call yourself an editor? Get a grip.

There is A Red Ensign on the podium. Correct? But which one? One can not see the Canadian Coat-of-Arms.

Next, if it was the Canadian Red Ensign,.... SO WHAT?

The Celtic Cross,

The Scottish Flag,

The Welsh Flag,

The Northern Irish Flag (with the Union Jack in the Canton),

and the present day CANADIAN MAPLE LEAF FLAG,

are ALL VISIBLE as well.

By your logic AndyL, they are all racist Flags. I, me-self, believe that YOUR LOGIC is RUBBISH.



Paul Fromm ******* Recently, he has tried to revive use of the Red Ensign flag and his   political  events and rallies usually have the old Canadian flag prominently  displayed. *******

So what?

AndyL I'm not going to drop this. What is your obsession with linking the Canadian Red Ensign to a bunch of    Facist nutbars?

ArmchairVexillologistDon

Don, perhaps you should complain to Paul Fromm and ask his organization to stop using the red ensign as a symbol. I agree, their use of the red ensign is odious but just because you don't like it doesn't mean you are correct in denying this fact.

See references at ,

See also this picture from a rally for Ernst Zundel held earlier this year. AndyL 04:38, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Also see this. AndyL 04:46, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)



Rebuttal

 * There is A Red Ensign on the podium. Correct? But which one? One can not see the Canadian Coat-of-Arms.


 * Next, if it was the Canadian Red Ensign,.... SO WHAT?


 * The Celtic Cross,


 * The Scottish Flag,


 * The Welsh Flag,


 * The Northern Irish Flag (with the Union Jack in the Canton),


 * and the present day CANADIAN MAPLE LEAF FLAG,

Don., this is a straw man argument. No where have I cited the photograph of Fromm at the podium as evidence regarding the red ensign. Rather, it is in the Paul Fromm article because it was taken at a "friends of the British National Party" meeting as well as because of the neo-nazi flag on the extreme left side of the photo. It's fallacious reasoning for you to choose a photograph and present it as if it was my evidence in the red ensign argument and then point out the inadequacies of the evidence when I never used that picture as evidence regarding the red ensign. Indeed, I didn't even notice the red ensign in the picture until you pointed it out. AndyL 05:26, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Rebutal-of-Rebutal
Dec 11, 2004 AD,

AndyL,

I have deleted your reference to the Canadian Red Ensign and the "Zundel People". I shall keep doing so.

EVERYDAY.... If I have to. FOREVER.

Next up,

You can "expect" nothing.

Some "wing-dings" have put up the Red Ensign at this idiots rally once in a while,.... SO WHAT?

That does NOT make the Red Ensign theirs.

Why do you try so hard to link the Red Ensign to this bunch of nut-bags,...?

The Red Ensign is a cherished symbol of Canada.

I'm trying to protect it from getting slandered by reckless people like you.

So AndyL,... why do you keep going to the effort of linking the Red Ensign to "Zundel-people"?

Why make such a big effort to link such insignificant "sightings of the Red Ensign" at Zundel rallies? http://www.zundelsite.org/zundel_persecuted/aug10_rally.html

Well?

Eh?

Why?

Canadian Maple Leaf Flag at Zundel Rally http://www.canadianfreespeech.com/battles/zundel_july04/images/0031.JPG

Austrian Flags at Zundel Rallies

http://zundelsite.org/zundel_persecuted/free_zundel_rally_nov23.html

'''Austria: Index of All Pages Österreich'''

http://flagspot.net/flags/at-index.html#land

Austrian (Austro-Hungarian), and German Flags are the most varied in the World. If you KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT FLAGS (which you obviously do not) you would know that some block-head waving a Flag does NOT make it theirs.

I am prepared to continue this "debate/deleting" of the Red Ensign racist-group linking, AD-NAUSEIUM, AD-INFINITUM.

ArmChairVexillologistDon


 * "I am prepared to continue this "debate/deleting" of the Red Ensign racist-group linking, AD-NAUSEIUM, AD-INFINITUM."

That sort of behaviour is not acceptable on wikipedia and would lead to you being banned. Just because you don't like a fact does not give you the licence to erase it. Sorry. That you also find other flags at Zundel rallies does not change the fact that Paul Fromm's organizations have adopted the red ensign as their symbol, sell the red ensign, promote it in their literature as the "real" flag of Canada etc.  AndyL 07:28, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

AndyL,

Get "the boss" in here then,

We need "a third party" to decide this,

Until this "third-party" shows up,... I shall keep deleting your "unproven Red Ensign Facist link.

ArmChairVexillologistDon


 * Okay. It's "fascist," and I can't say I appreciate you folks conducting your arguments all over my user talk page. Threats to continue reverting things until you get your way, regardless of discussion, are equally inappropriate.
 * Now that that's done with, I have to agree with AndyL. Saying that Ernst Zundel and his ilk have an especial fondness for the Red Ensign for particular unsavoury reasons does not mean that the Red Ensign was a fascist flag, or anything of that variety. I don't pretend to speak for the truthfulness of the matter, but if it's a fact, it's a fact, and seems worthy of record. That's how it works.
 * If you don't like the fact that the noble red ensign is being dragged through the mud by its unfortunate association with fascism, take it up with Ernst; don't shoot the messenger. - Montr&eacute;alais 07:51, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Montrealis, just for the record, I haven't posted anything on your talk page. Don saw fit to cut and paste the exchange from this page onto your page for reasons known only to him. AndyL 07:56, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Neo-nazi POV

 * The following discussion was begun on personal talk pages but is better suited to the article pages.

Why do you say the usage of the red ensign by neo-nazi groups is "irrelevent"? AndyL 14:37, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * The comments about the neo-nazi groups are about them, not about the red ensign. It doesn't say anything about a flag to show how it has been misused by fringe groups.  Eclecticology 14:45, 2004 Dec 11 (UTC)

So then the fact that the confederate flag was revived in the 1960s by various white supremacist groups in the south shouldn't be mentioned in an article on the confederate flag? The usage of flags is certainly germane to articles about a flag.. Should it necessarily be the main point of the article? No. But to avoid any mention at all would be negligent. The point is the Candian red ensign fell into disuse in the 1960s and has been rarely seen until then. Very few people fly it today. By far the largest group that does use the flag is neo-nazis who have adopted it as their Canadian symbol in oppoisition to the "multiculturalist" maple leaf. There is no reason not to mention that in passing in an article on the red ensign. It is certainly relevent. The fact that this is embarassing to the few other red ensign supporters in the country, those who are not neo-nazis, is not a good reason for non-inclusion. Our point in writing articles is not to "protect" the reputation of the topic (in this case the red ensign), to exclude material for that reason is POV. AndyL 15:43, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I have not looked into the debate on the Confederate flag, and don't intend to. It is also the state flag for Alabama, and I would not be surprised if many people there would object to such a use.


 * Neither do I know the statistics about how few people fly the red ensign, or how many neo-nazis use it. Perhaps you might enlighten us with properly sourced statistical information to avoid the accusation that you are just making this up.  The red ensign stopped being the official Canadian flag in the 1960s, but that does not translate into "falling into disuse" I'm sure that many pre 1960s veterans, particularly those who fought against Germany would find such a use of that ensign to be offensive.  Your attitude trivializes the views of those who still recognize the historical importance of the red ensign.  The issue is not simply a matter of embarassment or protecting reputations; it is about the appropriation of ideas and symbols for purposes contrary to their original intention.  I am sure that if I took time to research the matter I could find countless examples of various symbols being misused, but none of that would reflect on the original purpose of that symbol.  But such uses are stories about those who adopt the symbols, rather than about what the symbols themselves.  The most that would be tolerable on this point would be a line that says, "For information on the usurpation of the red ensign by neo-nazis see  ... ."  (You fill in the name of the article.)  Anything more is POV pushing by innuendo.


 * If anywhere there is to be information about the adoption of the red ensign by neo-nazis there should be stronger evidence to attest this than a group picture where the flag appears as one of many. What are the details of the resolution (within the context of their own internal policies and procedures) adopting the red ensign as the official neo-nazi flag?  Have there been attempts to obtain trademark protection for this usage?  What crest have they added to the ensign?  Would it not be more informative to show a picture of the neo-nazi version where their crest is clearly shown, and not just a group shot? Eclecticology 17:10, 2004 Dec 11 (UTC)

Thank for lifting the Ban
Hello AndyL,

Thank you (and Montrealais, I assume) for lifing my ban. I am grateful for the opportunity to debate the Red Ensign being linked to Facist groups. I thank you for the opportunity.

Sincerely,

ArmChairVexillologistDon

The Grand Union Flag (1775-1777 AD) was derived from British East India Flag
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_United_States


 * This is not relevant.AndyL 22:20, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The Canadian Red Ensign versus the Canadian Maple Leaf Design
The Canadian Red Ensign was used as the Flag of Canada from 1867 AD, to 1964 AD. Later in early 1965 AD, the Canadian Maple Leaf was adopted. It is public knowledge that its adoption was controversal. 'The Great Canadian Flag Debate

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-73-80/politics_economy/canada_flag/

(please review the videos, they are precious records of this indeed).

For a "snap-shot of Feb 1965 AD", please click on, Clip Number 6: Canadians differ on flag, closure'

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-73-80-302/politics_economy/canada_flag/clip6

The Canadian Red Ensign is a British Navy Jack.



http://flagspot.net/images/g/gb~rens.gif

The Canadian Maple Leaf is a French-Republican Tri-colour.



http://flagspot.net/images/f/fr.gif

(more to come).

ArmChairVexillologistDon


 * I'm not sure what you mean by posting all this; I just note that if that's what you believe, then the Maple Leaf must be the first tricolour in history with two colours. - Montr&eacute;alais


 * Don, can you please try not to post material that is of no relevance to the question of including a reference to neo-nazi use of the Canadian red ensign? Simply posting any link you can find on the red ensign does not an argument make. AndyL 22:22, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, you can find several flags flown at Canadian neo-nazi rallies, however, Paul Fromm has been quite determined in promoting the use of the red ensign as the flag of his movement. See, for example, A plethora of Red Ensigns --OUR flag Also see this page with the red ensign being used as the backdrop at Fromm's "Atternative Forums" as well as a picture subtitled "Speaking. That's my Red Ensign lapel pin on my left lapel". The statement in the article isn't based on the mere fact that red ensigns "just happen" to be at a Zundel rally, it is based on the campaign of the neo-nazi movement in Canada, led by Fromm, to revive use of the red ensign. The "Freedom Site" operated by Heritage Front leader Marc Lemire is Canada's pre-eminent neo-nazi web service. On it, at this page you can find for sale an audio tape titled "The Meaning and History of the Red Ensign, Canada's Real Flag.". In London Ontario, Fromm's group marched last year in a parade of red ensign flags, "With our large Red Ensigns snapping against the deep blue sky, were certainly created a stirring sight." writes Fromm. One of Fromm's sites has this page with the article The Red Ensign - Our Flag. So yes, while one may also find Austrian and other flags at Zundel rallies you also find a large number of red ensigns. Why? Because the far right movement in Canada, led by Paul Fromm, has instituted a campaign to revive use of the flag. I'm not saying this should be the focus of the article but there is absolutely no reason not to mention it. I see no reason to exclude this fact from the article. The desire to protect the reputation of the red ensign by excluding this fact is, frankly, POV. AndyL 21:34, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

As for the suggestion "The most that would be tolerable on this point would be a line that says, "For information on the usurpation of the red ensign by neo-nazis see ... ." " first of all "usurption" is a pov word, secondly, if there was enough material to justify an independent article having a link would be fine. As there is not sufficient material the standard practice at wikipedia would be to include what material exists in the relevant articles which is what I have done. Including the material is not POV, it is a statement of fact, removing it because you wish it were not true or because you think it reflects badly on the red ensign is POV. Certainly we can qualify the reference in the article by saying that not all supporters of the red ensign are neo-nazis and that many red ensign supporters deplore the adoption of the flag by neo-nazis but to remove the reference altogether is not appropriate. AndyL 21:44, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I've never heard of the flag being used by fascists, but Andy has presented good evidence to that effect and this topic deserves to be in the article. - SimonP 22:07, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)

Rebutal to Montrealais over Canadian Maple Flag "First Bicolour"
_____
 * I'm not sure what you mean by posting all this; I just note that if that's what you believe, then the Maple Leaf must be the first tricolour in history with two colours. - Montr&eacute;alais

______

Montrealais,

Please review, French Republican Tri-colour (Blue-White-Red)

http://flagspot.net/flags/fr.html

http://flagspot.net/images/f/fr.gif

Peru Flag (Red-White-Red) Tri-colour

http://flagspot.net/flags/pe.html

http://flagspot.net/images/p/pe.gif

Canadian Maple Leaf (Red-White-Red) Tri-colour

http://flagspot.net/flags/ca.html

http://flagspot.net/images/c/ca.gif

A tri-colour Flag is composed of THREE REGIONS (not necessarily three colours).

A bi-colour is similarly composed of TWO REGIONS.

Vertical Regions' (up-and-down) are called Pales.

e.g., Early Quebec St. Jean Bapstiste Flag (ca. 1840) http://flagspot.net/flags/ca-qcsjb.html

http://flagspot.net/images/c/ca-qc{j2.gif

(a vertical bi-colour, with Green-White Pales)

Franco-Ontarien Flag (1975 AD)

http://flagspot.net/flags/ca-on.html#Ontarois

http://flagspot.net/images/c/ca-f-ont.gif

(a vertical bi-colour, with Green-White Pales, with a White Jean d'Arc Fleur-de-lis, and a Green Trilium, blazoned on the left and right Pales, respeectively).

Horizontal Regions' (left-to-right) are called Fesses.

The first Revolutionary Tri-colour was used by Protestant (Lutheran) Dutch, who declared the Independence of the Republic of the United Provinces of the Netherlands in 1582 AD.  The Dutch War of Independence (1581-1648 AD) resulted in the Spanish Netherlands breaking away from Spain.

Their Revolutionary Republican Tri-colour was known as the Prinsevlag,

http://flagspot.net/images/n/nl-princ.gif


 * Don, 1) please sign your posts. You can do this by typing

~ at the end of yoru contribution 2) please try not to include so much white space in your posts since this results in your contributions taking up a lot of space while having minimal content. Please try to write in paragraphs. 3) please stay on topic. Your response above is completely immaterial to the question of including a reference to the use of the Canadian Red Ensign by fascist groups. Montrealis was making an aside that your previous post was irrelevent and you respond by taking up his aside! Please stay with the program. AndyL 23:09, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

AndyL,... I am following the rules. You can not dictate my content
AndyL,

'''Would you like Jimmy ("Jimbo" ) Wales to review this disagreement as well?

Eh?'''

"Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" jwales@wikia.com

How about you e-mail him, from him to see how you could be harrassing me?

ArmChairVexillolgistDon

Don, do you actually have any argument for why the reference to fascists groups should not be included under the Canadian section of the red ensign article? You have said you will revert "ad infinitum" but you have failed to respond to my statements above. The only conclusion I can draw from your inability to put forth an argument is that you have no argument and therefore have no justification for reverting the article in the future. If you have an argument then make it instead of trying to change the topic to an irrelevent discussion of whether or not the Canadian maple leaf flag is a tricolour. This is not Talk:Maple Leaf flag so that question is of no interest here. As to whether you should start harassing Jimbo I don't think that's in your interest but I'm certainly not going to stand in your way. As to my advice regarding white space, signing your posts and staying on topic I put to you that following my advice would help you but if you want to continue to harm your cause by making incomprehensible posts then that's your business. AndyL 23:29, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

AndyL,... you have muddled-up this issue,... I'm straighting it out
I am getting to the point.

I have to make some factual statements first.

To counteract "your claim to the contrary".

I am on temporary probation for VANDALISM.

If you want me to present my views,... then don't harrass me.

Deal?

ArmchairVexillologistDon

Point-by-Point review of AndyL's "obervations"
Don, do you actually have any argument for why the reference to fascists groups should not be included under the Canadian section of the red ensign article?

'''The Canadian Red Ensign (1867-1964 AD) preceeded the Canadian Maple Leaf Flag (post-1965 AD). That makes the Canadian Maple Leaf Flag directly relevent.'''

You have said you will revert "ad infinitum" but you have failed to respond to my statements above. The only conclusion I can draw from your inability to put forth an argument is that you have no argument and therefore have no justification for reverting the article in the future.

You are jumping to conclusions, before hearing all the facts.'

If you have an argument then make it instead of trying to change the topic to an irrelevent discussion of whether or not the Canadian maple leaf flag is a tricolour. This is not Talk:Maple Leaf flag so that question is of no interest here.

'''The Canadian Maple Leaf is of a French design (i.e., French Republican Tri-colour). It is at complete odds with the past British Navy Jacks of Canada. This Flag was never fully accepted by Canadians. Some accepted it, some still use the old Canadian Red Ensign. I happen to still use the Canadian Red Ensign.'''

As to whether you should start harassing Jimbo I don't think that's in your interest but I'm certainly not going to stand in your way. As to my advice regarding white space, signing your posts and staying on topic I put to you that following my advice would help you but if you want to continue to harm your cause by making incomprehensible posts then that's your business. AndyL 23:29, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

'''I shan't e-mail Jim ("Jimbo") Wales to harrass him. He has betters things to do than to settle "our petty-spat". However, Jim would be very interesting in Wikipedia will-fully publishing extreme, and biased views (i.e., borderline propaganda). If I'm summarily banned/harrased as I'm trying to have my case heard hear,.... I shall go up the chain-of-command, all the way to "Jimbo" if I have to complain about you. Yes indeed.'''

'''Just so we understand eachother, Andy.

ArmchairVexillologistDon'''


 * Don, as much as I may agree with you on the principle points about the article, Andy's points about signing posts and leaving white space are well taken. Following these conventions are for the benefit of the entire community in that they are very helpful to all interested parties who attempt to follow a debate.  It has certainly been my experience after nearly three years on Wikipedia that even bitter enemies in a wide range of debates will both follow this practice.


 * I have reviewed the Paul Fromm links given by Andy, and as much as I hate the idea of defending or even seeming to defend the neo-nazis I do not find that they are making any claim that the red ensign is an emblem of the neo-nazis or anything similar. The title "A plethora of Red Ensigns - OUR Flag" does nothing more than take the advocacy position that the Red Ensign should again become Canada's flag.  It's probably safe to assume that, like it or not, Fromm and many of his followers are Canadian citizen.  As such it's perfectly acceptable for them to take that position.  Such claims are common with people who appeal to patriotic traditions.  It is a gross misreading to interpret the word "our" in that context as referring to the neo-nazi movement.  Eclecticology 00:37, 2004 Dec 12 (UTC)

The point is, eclecticology, that there are few organized groups in Canada that advocate use of the Canadian red ensign. In fact, the only ones I know of are associated with Fromm or other neo-nazi groups. That means it is relevant to state in the article that among those who advocate a return to the Canadian red ensign are far-right neo-nazi groups. Indeed, unless someone can point out other groups that advocate a return to the old Canadian Red Ensign, it would even be fair to state that the *only* organized groups in Canada today that advocate a return to the Canadian red ensign are far right or neo-Nazi groups.AndyL 01:35, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Direct Rebutal of AndyL's claimed Facist links to Red Ensign
One of Fromm's sites has this page with the article The Red Ensign - Our Flag. So yes, while one may also find Austrian and other flags at Zundel rallies you also find a large number of red ensigns. Why? Because the far right movement in Canada, led by Paul Fromm, has instituted a campaign to revive use of the flag. I'm not saying this should be the focus of the article but there is absolutely no reason not to mention it. I see no reason to exclude this fact from the article. The desire to protect the reputation of the red ensign by excluding this fact is, frankly, POV. AndyL 21:34, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

'''First of all, Canada is not a Nation of Flag wavers. I don't know why, but we just don't seem to wave Flags as much as our American Bretheren do. You contend that the usage of the Canadian Red Ensign has dropped very low,... well how would you actually know that? And if it has so what. I for one do not use the Canadian Maple Leaf Flag. I do not feel that it represents Canada in a balanced fashion. My Flag of Canada was always the old Canadian Red Ensign.'''

Next up, here is Paul Fromms website The Red Ensign - Our Flag.

'''It says OUR FLAG. Whose Flag? Canada's real Flag. Just what is RACIST about that,...? Absolutely nothing. In fact it is just a TRADITIONAL point-of-view, on that adheres strongly to Canada's past. Nothing more, nothing less.'''

'''In fact,... upon reading Paul Fromms website, can you find me ONE THING that is RACIST about it?'''

ArmchairVexillologistDon

Paul Fromm is a Canadian neo-Nazi. His group advocates the use of the Canadian red ensign. The fact that the article in which they make their argument is not explicitly does not change the nature of Fromm or his organization. AndyL 01:16, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Eclecticology: The Aryan Nations use the USA Flag, should Wikipedia reference that?
It is a gross misreading to interpret the word "our" in that context as referring to the neo-nazi movement. Eclecticology 00:37, 2004 Dec 12 (UTC)

'''AndyL contends that the Facist groups in Canada are using the Red Ensign as their symbol, in an attempt to revive its usage. I say so what,...? Why is that note-worthy in the least,...?'''

The Aryan Nations use the present Flag of the USA (please look below),

http://images.google.com/images?q=naziandoldglory.jpg&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=wi

Should Wikipedia link the present day USA Flag to Facist groups? Well?

'''Additionally, whilst we are at it, the KLU-KLUX-KLAN regularly used the USA FLAG in parades in its hayday of the 1920-30s, should we link the USA Flag to todays KKK,...? They most likely still use the USA FLAG.''' http://www.cozine.com/archive/cc2003/01100212.jpg

'''What about the CHRISTIAN CROSS. KKK people's "hall-mark" is the burning a CHRISTIAN CROSS. Should Wikipedia OVERTLY LINK the Christian Cross to KKK block-heads,...?''' Well,...? http://members.internettrash.com/wom/kkk.jpg

Sincerely, ArmchairVexillologistDon


 * Again, you're using faulty logic, the US flag is the official flag of the US thus most Americans use it in order to demonstrate their patriotism etc so the fact that the US Aryan Nations use it is not notable given the flag's widespread use. The Canadian Red Ensign has not been Canada's official flag for forty years, and use of it is highly limited - there are very few organised groups who fly it, in fact, the only organised group I know of that does wave it are Fromm's groups as well as the Canadian Heritage Alliance (a neo-Nazi group based in London) and the Northern Hammerskins (a Canadian skinhead group). Indeed, I'd be interested if anyone can point out examples of non-racists and non-neo nazi groups in Canada using the Canadian red ensign in the twenty first century. The only examples I am aware of of the flag being waved in the past four years are by far right/neo-nazi groups. Given the highly limited use of the Canadian Red Ensign today it is signficant to note that its use is being advocated by far right/neo-nazi groups since there are few, if any, others who still use that banner. Don, I challenge you to give me examples of non-fascist, non-far right groups waving the Candian red ensign (as opposed to the Ontario or Manitoba red ensigns) in the last four years. As for the cross, any article on cross burning would, of course, mention KKK association and indeed the article does so so you've actually helped make my point with that example - thank you.AndyL 01:27, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

BTW Don, it's considered poor manners in wikipedia to alter or add headings to other people's posts. Please don't do that again. Also you don't have to put every post you make under a new heading, that actually makes it harder to follow the discussion. AndyL 01:40, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

AndyL: "Our Flag" Website says nothing Racist
Paul Fromm is a Canadian neo-Nazi. His group advocates the use of the Canadian red ensign. The fact that the article in which they make their argument is not explicitly does not change the nature of Fromm or his organization. AndyL 01:16, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

'''Yes, Paul Fromm is a Canadian Neo-Nazi. But, so what? The "Our Flag" website does NOT make one Nazi/Facist statement. Not one iota. Just because the guy wrote the website, does not make WHAT WAS WRITTEN THERE UNTRUE, nor Racist for that matter.'''

ArmchairVexillologistDon

Thanks for acknowledging that Fromm is a neo-Nazi. The point is it is relevant to point out in the article that the most visible groups today advocating the use of the Canadian Red Ensign are neo-Nazi groups. AndyL 01:37, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

AndyL: You are not the sole Judge of what is "Faulty-Logic"
Again, you're using faulty logic, the US flag is the official flag of the US thus most Americans use it in order to demonstrate their patriotism etc so the fact that the US Aryan Nations use it is not notable given the flag's widespread use.

The Canadian Red Ensign has not been Canada's official flag for forty years, and use of it is highly limited - there are very few organised groups who fly it, in fact, the only organised group I know of that does wave it are Fromm's groups as well as the Canadian Heritage Alliance (a neo-Nazi group based in London) and the Northern Hammerskins (a Canadian skinhead group). Indeed, I'd be interested if anyone can point out examples of non-racists and non-neo nazi groups in Canada using the Canadian red ensign in the twenty first century. The only examples I am aware of of the flag being waved in the past four years are by far right/neo-nazi groups. Given the highly limited use of the Canadian Red Ensign today it is signficant to note that its use is being advocated by far right/neo-nazi groups since there are few, if any, others who still use that banner. Don, I challenge you to give me examples of non-fascist, non-far right groups waving the Candian red ensign (as opposed to the Ontario or Manitoba red ensigns) in the last four years. As for the cross, any article on cross burning would, of course, mention KKK association and indeed the article does so so you've actually helped make my point with that example - thank you.AndyL 01:27, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Don replied:

'''What does widespread use have to do with anything,...? Nothing. You are expressing the opinion that the USA FLAG should not be LINKED to the ARYAN NATION Facists groups because it not important. That is your opinion. My opinion is that the same "curtosy" should be afforded the CANADIAN RED ENSIGN.'''
 * Don, please do not put your comments in the middle of other people's comments, that's not considered acceptable on wikipedia since a) it's rude and interrupts the flow of an argument. This page is not a two person dialogue but is meant for the community as a whole. b) it makes it difficult to follow who is saying what. Please put your comments following someone else's comments. You can copy and paste a quotation that you are replying to but do not cut up someone else's original post. Also, please try not to use so much bolding. AndyL 01:52, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

AndyL: Paul Fromm embracing the Red Ensign is not relavent
Thanks for acknowledging that Fromm is a neo-Nazi. The point is it is relevant to point out in the article that the most visible groups today advocating the use of the Canadian Red Ensign are neo-Nazi groups. AndyL 01:37, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

'''Paul Fromm is a Neo-Nazi. Sure thing. I have never said otherwise. My contension is that there is NO RELAVENCE in NOTING THIS.'''

If you note this, than why not link the USA FLAG to ARYAN NATION Facist,...?

ArmchairVexillologistDon

How could identifying those groups existing today (2004) that advocate a return to the Canadian Red Ensign not be relevant? AndyL 01:49, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

AndyL: The Royal Canadian Legion still uses the Canadian Red Ensign
Don

How could identifying those groups existing today (2004) that advocate a return to the Canadian Red Ensign not be relevant? AndyL 01:49, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Royal Canadian Legion using the Canadian Red Ensign http://www.army.dnd.ca/RCR_RHQ/Images/Whats_New_8_Oct_2003/legionweek.jpg

'''The Royal Canadian Legion still uses the Canadian Red Ensign, I have been Legions, and they use them, PROUDLY DISPLAYED. Offically or not.'''

'''What you are implying by associating the Red Ensign Facists groups, is that it would be a Facist thing to want the Red Ensign re-instated. You may not be saying that directly, but you most certainly are implying it.'''

'''I say this,... there is NOTHING FACIST about the Red Ensign. There is NOTHING FACIST ABOUT re-instating the Red Ensign. In fact, I would support the re-instatement of the Canadian Red Ensign as Canada's Flag.'''

ArmchairVexillologistDon

Is it the official position of the Royal Canadian Legion that the Canadian Maple Leaf be replaced as Canada's national flag by the Canadian Red Ensign?AndyL 01:55, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

AndyL: Is Replacing the Maple Leaf with the Red Ensign a Facist idea?
Is it the official position of the Royal Canadian Legion that the Canadian Maple Leaf be replaced as Canada's national flag by the Canadian Red Ensign?AndyL 01:55, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

'''No. The Royal Canadian Legion has no offical position in that regard. The Royal Canadian Legion is the most highly respected Canadian Organisation that holds the Red Ensign in very high regard, and views it as a cherished symbol of Canada. Please review the 1960s clip on the Legion's reponse to Prime Minister Lester B. Pearson wanted to get rid of the Red Ensign.'''

Clip 2: Legionnaires boo Pearson over flag

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-73-80-297/politics_economy/canada_flag/clip2

On a stage with Royal Canadian Legionnaires standing at attention and holding Red Ensigns, Prime Minister Lester B. Pearson steps up to a microphone. He's speaking to a convention of 2,000 at a Winnipeg Legion who invited him to talk about his proposed national flag. Pearson tells the crowd the Red Ensign will no longer serve the needs of Canadians. The crowd boos and heckles the prime minister.

AndyL do you think the Red Ensign is a Facist Flag?

AndyL do you think the re-instatement of the Red Ensign as Canada's Flag is a Facist idea?

ArmchairVexillologistDon

Your questions are irrelevent. I am not proposing that the article state that the red ensign is a fascist flag, I am simply stating that the article should make note of the *fact* that the Canadian Red Ensign has been increasingly used by Canadian neo-fascist and neo-Nazi groups in recent years and that these groups are arguing that the Canadian Red Ensign should be restored as Canada's national flag. AndyL 08:23, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

AndyL: I formally request a THIRD-PARTY DECISION on deleting your Facist Links
I formally request a THIRD-PARTY DECISION on deleting your Facist Links to the Canadian Red Ensign.

ArmchairVexillologistDon

Don wrote: "No. The Royal Canadian Legion has no offical position in that regard. The Royal Canadian Legion is the most highly respected Canadian Organisation that holds the Red Ensign in very high regard, and views it as a cherished symbol of Canada."

So then, the only organisations which call for the return of the Canadian Red Ensign as the national flag are neo-nazi and fascist groups. Why should that not be mentioned in the article? AndyL 08:12, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

AndyL: Ordinary Canadian Individuals Love the Red Ensign
AndyL,

One does not need an "Organisation" to have patriotism and love of a Flag. Canada is not a society of Flag-wavers, we are more reserved about such things. We tend to talk more about these things in private. Just because you have found 2 Neo-Nazi groups who have embraced the old Canadian Red Ensign, does not give them the "majority stake" in this cherish Canadian symbol.

I put it to you that your reasoning is very biased, in the extreme. You wish to paint the Red Ensign as a "dead Flag" that only "Neo-Nazis" care about. This is not the case. Their are alot of ordinary Canadians (more than you know) that still consider the Red Ensign "Canadas Flag".

I openly request, a THIRD-PARTY DECISION, on the editing and/or complete removal of your Facist link to the Canadian Red Ensign.

ArmChairVexillologistDon

Don, please don't make insinuations about me I'm just interested in facts so just answer the question: What organizations, besides those associated with Paul Fromm, advocate the readoption of the Canadian Red Ensign as the national flag?AndyL 16:54, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Mediation request
Don, I've put in a request at Requests for mediation. If you agree to mediation then go to that page and add a comment under my request (don't make a new heading) stating that you agree to mediation. Please sign your post properly, ie with four squiggle marks ~ in order to make it easier for the mediator to contact you and refrain from your habit of bolding everything you say as if you're more important than everyone else. AndyL 17:16, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hello AndyL,

I thank you very much for placing the mediation request. I will abide by the decision of the arbitar.

ArmChairVexilllologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 17:39, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

More on modern Canadian red ensign usage
See this blog entry Red Ensign: Flag of Cranks. The following far-right nativist and neo-nazi groups now advocate the adoption of the red ensign and Canada's national flag: These groups are in addition to the aforementioned Canadian Heritage Alliance (neo-Nazi group), Canada First Immigration Committee/Canadians for Foreign Aid Reform/Canadian Association for Free Expression (Paul Fromm) and the Northern Alliance (neo-Nazi). AndyL 18:37, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Autonomous Citizens of Canada - Niagara a "European heritage" anti-multiculturalism group.
 * Canadian Confederate Friendship Society a white supremacist outfit

See also Red Ensign: Flag of Hate and this interview carried on the white supremacist webcast American Dissident Voices hosted by Kevin Strom of the National Alliance. AndyL

AndyL,

The Canadian Red Ensign is not a Flag of Hate.

Red Ensign: Flag of Hate

this blog entry Red Ensign: Flag of Cranks.

Autonomous Citizens of Canada - Niagara

The 'Red Ensign: Flag of Hate website is "very questionable". These fringe websites are one thing. They are TINY and have NO CREDITABILITY. However '''Wikipedia is NOT a fringe website. Wikipedia is has a WORLDWIDE PROFILE, and a large CREDITABILE FOLLOWING.'''  That is the reason I am advocating the editing and/or deletion of your "questionable linkage".

ArmChairVexilloloigistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 21:05, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Don, that's your POV and POV has no place here. We deal with facts and the fact is that neo-nazi groups in Canada are promoting use of the Candian Red Ensign and its reinstatement as the national flag. You have failed to provide any reason why this should not be mentioned in the article particularly as you have failed to name any non-fascist groups that advocate the readoption of the Canadian Red Ensign as the state's official flag. AndyL 21:24, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

AndyL: You have NO monopoly on Point-of-View
AndyL writes, Don, that's your POV and POV has no place here.

'''Oh really? So YOUR POV AndyL, is the ONLY POV that is acceptable on Wikipedia,...?'''

We deal with facts and the fact is that neo-nazi groups in Canada are promoting use of the Candian Red Ensign and its reinstatement as the national flag.

'''I beg to differ. Wikipedia deals with RELAVENT FACTS, RELIABLE FACTS, and IMPORTANT FACTS. I contend that the linking of the old Canadian Red Ensign to these Neo-Nazi/Facist "people" is a trival, pointless, and UN-NEWS WORTHY observation, for an on-line Encyclopedia.'''

You have failed to provide any reason why this should not be mentioned in the article particularly as you have failed to name any non-fascist groups that advocate the readoption of the Canadian Red Ensign as the state's official flag. AndyL 21:24, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

'''I beg to differ, again. My opinion it that YOU HAVE FAILED to justify the linking of these Facist groups to the old Canadian Red Ensign. They are a bunch of cranks out to get attention, anyway they can. You AndyL are actually ADVOCATING GIVING THEM the very attention, that they desire. If the old Canadian Red Ensign was for instance re-adopted as Canada's National Flag, that would not signal the arrival of the Right-Wing Facist Utopia, that these nutters appear to want. In fact, if the Old Red Ensign was re-adopted as Canada's National Flag, this country would still be the free, tolerant, and independent Nation-State, that Canada is today. Additionally, my heart would be glad to see my cherished Red Ensign back flying over Canada's Parliament Buildings, where I personally feel it belongs.'''

ArmChairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 21:54, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

ArmChairVexillologistDon reads Wikepedia Mediation Procedure
AndyL,

I have just read the Mediation procedure, linked below,

Mediation Procedure

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediation

To quote...

Mediation is a process of alternative dispute resolution in which a neutral third party, the mediator, assists two or more parties in order to help them negotiate an agreement, with concrete effects, on a matter of common interest; lato sensu is any activity in which an agreement on whatever matter is researched by an impartial third party, usually a professional, in the common interest of the parties.

Frankly, I see our respective positions as diammetrically opposed. Thus it would seem likely that the Red Ensign page will be forever protected WITH A DISPUTED CAVEAT (in the page heading).

ArmChairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 05:21, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

AndyL,

In an attempt to leave "no stone unturned" I shall address your following assertions, quoted below,


 * There are many groups in the US that advocate the stars and stripes as the US national flag so the action of one or other group is not significant. There are few groups in Canada that advocate the adoption of the Canadian Red Ensign as the national flag. That all of them are neo-nazi or fascist groups is notable. As for your other comments please desist from personal attacks. Many people had problems with Paul Vogel and his unreconstructed anti-semitism, that's why he was banned, for you to accept his criticisms of others as a fact worth repeating does not do much for your credibility or say much for the quality of your judgement. AndyL 04:32, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I re-state, the fact that you believe that the linking of these Facists groups to the Red Ensign "note-worthy" is just YOUR POV. Equally the opinion that I do not find this "linkage to be note-worthy" is just MY POV.


 * "One more thing, I openly advocate here," Perhaps your advocacy is interfering with your ability to edit according to the rules regarding Neutral Point of View? You advocate for the red ensign, hence you do not wish to see it associated with something disreputable like fascism, hence you object to any mention of fascist groups advocating the red ensign's return not because to say this would be untrue but because it is contrary to your POV orientation of advocating for the flag. AndyL 05:02, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Next up, the fact that I openly advocate the re-instatement of the old Red Ensign, and/or the possible consideration of an even newer Flag design (perhaps one with BOTH the UNION JACK and the FLEUR-DE-LIS in it) is my just opinion (or POV). It is also my POV that your choice of linking these Facists groups to the Red Ensign is not befitting the standards of Wikipedia (which aims to be an on-line Encyclopedia), and will only serve to eventually reduce this entire website to the low repute, and creditabilty of the average "garden-variety" BLOG.

Again, this is my POV.

ArmChairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 06:07, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Australia
If this page is ever unprotected, could whomever does it leave a note on my talk page so that i can add an entry about the aussie red ensign. The bellman 11:22, 2004 Dec 13 (UTC)

Hello Bellman,

I really like the Australian and New Zealand Flags alot. Their respectively National Flags (Blue Ensigns) are both elagant and beautiful designs (in my POV). I also love their Red Ensign counterparts,

Australia Red Ensign(Merchant Ensign of the Navy)

http://flagspot.net/images/a/au-red.gif

New Zealand Red Ensign (Merchant Ensign of the Navy)

http://flagspot.net/images/n/nz_civil.gif

Proposed 1964 Canadian Red Ensign (Possible new National Flag)

http://scaa.usask.ca/gallery/flagdisplay/images/web/panel13-3.jpg

I really love this "Star Constillation" theme. The Australia and New Zealand Red Ensigns have the Southern Cross, and in kinship the (proposed) Canadian Red Ensign has Big Dipper.

I sincerely hope that this dispute between AndyL and I can be worked out, and your contributions Bellman, would be a true pleasure to read.

Sincerely,

ArmChairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 15:39, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

AndL: Is the Red Ensign page to suffer the fate of the "LaRouche" Debate?
AndyL,

This is quoted from your own TalkPage,

15 LaRouche

15.1 Vandalism in progress page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:AndyL#Red_Tory


 * LaRouche


 * Andy, I am withdrawing from the two LaRouche articles. I no longer have the time or incliniation to spend hours in endless circular arguments with these nutters about someone who however disgusting is basically not very important and will soon be dead anyway. Sorry to leave you to deal with this alone. Adam 09:46, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I doubt anyone will be able to get the articles in balance, because it is one of the basic structural weaknesses of Wikipedia that determined fanatics will always eventually succeed in having their way against reasonable editors, who sooner or later get bored and go away, as we have done. Adam 02:37, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

First off, my politics are Right-of-Centre, and your politics are Left-of-Centre. You have left a litany of conflicts over the Wikipedia talk pages, and alot of opinion pages on the internet. So I openly acknowledge that I have you at a disadvantage, as they say.

So with so much for me "to go on" about you AndyL, it is only fair that I offer to you some information about me, ArmChairVexillologistDon. This is done in an effort so that we might actually try to understand the others POV. My hobby (rather my passion) is Heraldy (Coats-of-Arms, Family Crests) and Vexillology (the study of Flags). I love patterns, and the rules for constructing them. They are to me, a historical visual record presented in the form of art. Yes I am a "Flag-Nutter". Hence, my tenacity about our Red Ensign tempest-in-tea-pot.

Anyways, Flags and Crests are things that are near an dear to my heart, and I do not like to see them "slandered" ( Rather my preception of them being slandered, i.e., POV). I guess the real issue between us is your view that the recording of the said Facist links to the Red Ensign as VITAL POINT of information, based on your own beliefs, and values.   On the other hand, I view your Red Ensign reference as a trival, and petty point, meant only to raise awareness that Facist-Nutters will embrace any symbol, as long as it gets them attention..

It seems that, you and I, are at a FUNDEMENTAL IMPASS, so where do we go form here AndyL, eh?

Sincerely,

ArmChairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 16:55, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Your personal attacks are inappropriate. It is also inappropriate to post an editor's full name on wikipedia if they are using a pseudonym. As for where we go from here perhaps you should decide if you're willing to accept mediation or not. AndyL 18:02, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

AndyL,

I am willing to accept mediation. I have openly stated so. The question is do you feel that you and I, have any common ground to base a comprimise on?

I feel strongly that your said Facist links are irrelavent, and you feel strongly that they are vital information. Frankly, I see that as an impass situation has arisen. At least it appears that way to me.

Next up, these were NOT personal attacks. I am not critisising your political beliefs, and values. I am listing your internet references sincerely for one end, and one end alone, to illustrate my opinion that you most likely do not possess anything resembling NPOV on the Red Ensign Flag. Again, this is not a personal attack upon you. This is an attempt to illustrate your past behaviour of instransiance, and "questionable rationalisations".

Please refer to this link.

http://www.mail-archive.com/marxism-thaxis@buo319b.econ.utah.edu/msg02174.html

In your own words, quoted below,


 * Anyway, at the time, I looked at the letter and thought that it was completely ridiculous and nothing more but a facile attempt to bully me.


 * But, since I was tired of the whole dispute and thought it was all a waste of time I signed it. Another reason I signed it was since the Socialist Caucus has no "membership" as such (remember, groups can get expelled from the NDP or being a "party within a party") a letter stating that I was resigning from the Socialist Caucus was absolutely meaningless. You can no more "resign" from the Socialist Caucus than you can resign from the human race. (Ok, a bit of an exaggerated comparison but you get the picture.)


 * More recently I've had disputes, heated disputes, with the co-chairs on other issues. My relationship has deteriorated profoundly since I started expressing interest in the Rebuidling the Left conference.

"One can no more resign from the Socialist Causus, than one can resign from the Human Race".

You signed a paper resigning from the Socialist Caucus, at the request of management. You were then taken to task because in their eyes you went back on your agreement. A WRITTEN AGREEMENT.

I ask you this AndyL, if you can use your own inner justifications to defy a WRITTEN AGREEMENT, how you and I settle this trival Red Ensign tempest-in-a-tea-pot?

ArmChairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 18:34, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)