Talk:Red Orchestra (espionage)

Agents
Just to identify the players: V. E. Tarrant's Red Orchestra (New York : John Wiley & Sons, 1996) names the prosecuter as Doktor Manfred Roeder of Oberstgerischtsrat, Air Region 3, nicknamed "Hitler's Bloodhound"; the Pres of the Reichskriegsgericht that approved the prosecution brief as Adm Max Bastian, KM; & the defense counsel as Drn Kurt Valentin, Rudolf Behse, Henz Bergman, & Bernhard Schwarz; the trial began 14 Dec 1942 in Berlin.

For what it's worth, Sûreté dubbed Sov agent Isaiah Bir "Phantomas" for his ability to disappear. Leopold Tripper, GRU Illegals Rezident for Western Europe in WW2, co-founded a company to export trenchcoats. (Dagger optional?) Trekphiler 14:08, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Werther?
I think the article needs a section of the commonly mentioned stories (myths?) that surround the Red Orchestra. As the article now stands, there's not a word of 'Werther', supposed to be a source in the highest echelons of Wehrmacht sending stream of highly accurate intelligence to the USSR through 'Lucy' in Switzerland. The true identity of 'Werther' is often mentioned as the greatest unsolved mystery of the WWII, opening door to much speculation. Even, or rather if, the whole story is a myth, it should be mentioned in this article. - Mikko H. 10:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Werther was actually a code-word that Lieutenant-General Thiele used in the begining of every message containing information about the German Army, not a person. SamWhitey (talk) 22:48, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Jealousy
I wrote in the german article about the red orchestra, and was a little proud of it. But now I see, the english article is even better. Please tell me - where did you get the information - especially about the Shulze-Boysen/Harnack group? Shug 20:57, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

The Trenchcoat Company
The Trench coat company mentioned above was called The Foreign Excellent Trenchcoat Company. Source: -The Great Game by Leopold Trepper. SamWhitey (talk) 20:46, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

List?
Should there be a list of the members? SamWhitey (talk) 20:51, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Computer Game
Is anyone else of the opinion that the computer game should be in a different article? Especially because the game has an article already. SamWhitey (talk) 21:25, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Red Three (espionage)

 * The Rote Kapelle discusses three groups. Two of those groups are already represented within the article and most of the support structure for this article is already represented in the original article. It is a very small article, and duplicates information found in the primary article in the two paragraphs. The people involved were based in Switzerland and weren't identified by Germany until well after the war was finished, so didn't have the impact. This doesn't need a seperate article, the original needs expansion. scope_creep (talk) 15:32, 20 March 2018 (UTC)


 * The Red Three might be included in The Red Orchestra, but not vice versa. Spies Who Changed History, 1960 by Kurt Singer, uses the term Rote Kapelle (Red Orchestra) repeatedly, does not use the term Red Three, suggesting that the term Red Orchestra has been known better than Red Three. Also, the content of The Red Orchestra seems more general than that of The Red Three. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:2FC0:F:813:742B:B93B:CC8C (talk) 05:15, 25 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment It seems the Red Orchestra is much bigger than I thought. It seems there are more than 400 people reported in the organisation, with the CIA reporting it could higher. The Rote Drei is also much bigger than I thought. The article really needs a substantial update. The actual Red Orchestra page is being updated, with details of the Rote Drei being updated with a summary of what they were up to. The Rote Drei page will be updated in due course. I will close now, it seems there is no reason to keep it open.  scope_creep Talk  14:17, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Spare section
German counter-intelligence operations== The RSHA included three independent espionage networks in the term "Red Orchestra": the Trepper group in Germany, France, and Belgium, the Lucy spy ring (rote Drei) in Switzerland, and the Schulze-Boysen/Harnack group in Berlin.

The Lucy team included British spy (either a double-agent or, more likely, an accepted liaison officer) Alexander Foote, who later wrote about his role in his memoirs (Handbook For Spies).

On 13 December 1941 the Germans raided a house in Brussels from which they had detected clandestine radio transmission and caught two Red Orchestra agents and the housekeeper, Rita Arnould. Based on information given by Arnould they determined the book being used to encode messages and deciphered about 120 intercepted messages from June 1941, including one that had the addresses of the major Soviet agents in Berlin.

During 1942 the RSHA established the Red Orchestra Special Commission (Sonderkommando Rote Kapelle). It included representatives of the Gestapo, Abwehr, and the SD.

Dud ref
The Red Three (Rote Drei) was the Switzerland section of Red Orchestra (code name: Foreign Excellent Raincoat Company), the espionage network of the Soviet Union in Western Europe, from 1930 until the end of World War II.


 * Dud Ref. ISBN is not correct.  scope_creep Talk  01:10, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

Schulze-Boysen Chart
The chart doesn't have Greta Kuckhoff in it.  scope_creep Talk  10:58, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Name Change
Hi Fellow Wikipedians. Does anybody have any issues with renaming the article to Red Orchestra. I would like to remove the espionage part. I dont think it is needed from disamg position. Thanks.  scope_creep Talk  10:54, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Extraneous section May need later
Among its main members were theatrical producer Adam Kuckhoff and his wife Greta, pianist Helmut Roloff, secretary Ilse Stöbe, diplomat Rudolf von Scheliha, author Günther Weisenborn, potter Cato Bontjes van Beek, Horst Heilmann (a Luftwaffe radio operator who worked in the Cipher Section of OKH), and photojournalist John Graudenz (who had been expelled from the USSR for reporting the Soviet famine of 1932–1933).

The group gathered intelligence from many sources. It did not communicate with the USSR by radio.

For the remainder of 1941, the Schulze-Boysen/Harnack team gave most of its intelligence to the United States through the American embassy's monetary attaché, Donald Heath. However, these efforts to inform other governments about Nazi atrocities and war plans were only a small part of their resistance effort.

Their primary activity was the distribution of leaflets to incite civil disobedience and cause the Nazis to worry about subversion. They also printed and pasted up anti-Nazi stickers in large numbers, and they helped people in danger from the Nazis to escape the country via an Underground Railroad-like network.

During 1942 the OKH Cipher Section decoded some of Trepper's radio traffic, and on 30 July 1942, the Gestapo arrested radio operator Johann Wenzel. Horst Heilmann tried to warn Schulze-Boysen, but the warning was not in time. Schulze-Boysen was arrested on 30 August, and Harnack on 3 September. The rest of the team was arrested within a few weeks, and many were executed.

The investigation was carried out by the Red Orchestra Special Commission under the leadership of Horst Kopkow, whose death was feigned by MI5 and was later given a different identity to help with Communists in West Germany after WWII.

Maria Josefovna Poliakova / Полякова, Мария Иосифовна as a translation candidate?
I couldn't help noticing - and having noticed it couldn't resist sharing - that your red-linked reference to Maria Josefovna Poliakova / Полякова, Мария Иосифовна looks like a particularly nice translation candidate. The Russian entry is reassuring concise but as far as I can tell usefully informative, and if you google around there appear to be one or two other juicy online sources .... even in English. I might yet be tempted to make a start, but my Russian is excessively dependent on Google-translate. It would be much better done by someone adequately qualified to spot where google translate produces inaccuracies and nonsenses.

Anyone ....? Regards Charles01 (talk) 14:58, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi It might be worth posting it to WikiProject Women in Red, with a bit of luck you will find somebody who will do the translation.

Sections that are not needed at the moment
Don't know how these fit in. Herrnstadt himself, not mentioned in Nelson 2009,nor Brysac 2002, nor original CIA listings of what constituted the Red Orchestra. Ilse Stöbe is linked to Von Scheliha who is considered part of the group. Gerhard Kegel is certainly not. Not mentioned in any context although obviously important at some other place, as has a de article.  scope_creep Talk  13:30, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Herrnstadt group
Rudolf Herrnstadt was a German journalist, who worked in the Berliner Tageblatt who became a communist in the 1920s and in late 1930 became a member of the Communist Party of Germany under the name Rudolf Arbin.

In 1932, Ilse Stöbe, who worked as a secretary at the Berliner Tageblatt, and who knew Herrnstadt as a friend. She was posted to Warsaw in 1932 and was recruited by Herrnstadt.

In 1933 Herrnstadt recruited German diplomat.

Some ext link Sophia Poznanska
* on Sophia Poznanska. For separate article.  scope_creep Talk  15:01, 26 May 2020 (UTC) Wrong person.  scope_creep Talk  09:46, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Diagram of Jeffremov Group
Moved here until I can write the article.  scope_creep Talk  19:06, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Turgid
The article needs re-writing for clarity. Kdammers (talk) 00:31, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

First Intercepted Radio Contact.
I see in the section titled "Unmasking" there is this passage:

''The first radio transmission that exposed them, was either intercepted on the 3.58am on 26 June 1941[71] or 3.58am on 26 August 1941 [70] (sources vary) and was the first of many over months that were to be intercepted by the Funkabwehr. The first message received at the intercept station in Zelenogradsk had the format: Klk from Ptx... Klk from Ptx... Klk from Ptx... 2606. 03. 3032 wds No. 14 qbv.[71]''

However, the intercept clearly happened on June 26th. This is the clue: ''Klk from Ptx... 2606. 03. 3032 wds No. 14 qbv''

That's clearly a badly formatted message preamble that should read KLK DE PTX 2606 0330 32 WDS NO. 14 QBV.

In plain language, that would be "KLK FROM (likely to be 'V', less likely 'DE') PTX", then the date (2606 = 26 day, 06 month). Then the message origination time 0330 = 03:30am which matches up well with the intercept time of 3:48am. Next is the number of "words" (ie., groups) in the message (32 WDS), followed by the message serial number itself, which is 14 (NO. 14), followed by the Q signal QBV. I think that probably should read "QRV", meaning "Are You Ready", and it was a transcription mistake from a poor image or something, but that I'm less certain of.

Regardless of the meaning of QBV, the message was clearly sent on June 26. If it had been sent in August, the date group would have read 2608.

Dittybopper (talk) 18:40, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi How are you? Really good of you to come in and check that and notice the mistake. It doesn't surprise that there is a mistake in it, all. There is so many versions of it, for all of it, its like the man who wasn't there.  I will check the references and we can change it. That's good, I can clean it up and get rid of another, sources vary tag.   scope_creep Talk  21:13, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Spare
Belgian-born socialite Suzanne Spaak joined the Trepper group in Paris after seeing the conduct of the Nazi occupiers in her country.

Order of arrest
Perrault. P143. Perrault say Jeffremov. Sources vary

Konstantin Jeffremov tried to hide but was arrested on the 22 July 1942.

After the arrest of Trepper, Piepe was ordered to attend the interrogations in Paris.

On the 12 October 1942, Malvina Gruber, the mistress of Rajchmann was arrested by the Abwehr in Brussels. Gruber immediately decided to cooperate with the Abwehr. She admitted the existence of Anatoly Gurevich and exposed the Trepper espionage network in France Jeffremov (sources vary) also exposed the Simexco company name to the Abwehr and at the same time exposed the name and the existence of the Trepper espionage network in France.

The premises of Simexco were searched on 25 November 1942 by the Abwehr and all known associates of the company were arrested

Perrault.285. Torture. Schulze-Boysen

++++Find out about Lyons group. ++++Torture was employed extensively.

Section to be used for specific article at some point in the future
Trepper directed seven GRU networks in France and each had its own group leader with a focus on gathering a specific type of intelligence. Trepper constructed them in a manner so that there independent, working in parallel with only the group leader having direct contact with Trepper. Regular meeting places were used for contact point at predetermined times and that could only be set by Trepper. This type of communication meant that Trepper could contact the group leader but not vice versa and stringent security measures were built in at every step. The seven networks in France were as follows,


 * Group Andre. It remit was to collect intelligence on the German economy and industry. Its cover name was Andre
 * This group was run by Leon Grossvogel who was a Polish-French Jewish and communist businessman who effectively created and ran the Simex company for Trepper but gave up the work to exclusively work within the espionage network. His other task was the control of the wireless equipment and communication needs of the network. As part of his remit he was responsible for finding safe houses, rendezvous points for other networks and letter drop locations.


 * Group Harry. Its remit was to collect intelligence from French military and political groups, from within the Deuxième Bureau and within Vichy intelligence, from the Central Committee of the French Communist Party, from Gaullist groups and from UK groups.
 * This group was run by Henry Robinson. Robinson was a German Jew and communist. Unlike Trepper who worked for the Red Army Intelligence, Robinson was a Communist International (Cominterm) agent who had been running his own vast Cominterm espionage network in the UK, France, Belgium and Germany before Trepper arrived in Europe. There was an intense dislike between the two men due to Robinson being forced to hand over his network to Trepper when he arrived in France, even though Robinson was senior to Trepper. The Cominterm organisation had lost prestige with Stalin who suspected it of deviating from Communist norms and Robinson was suspected of being an agent of the Deuxième Bureau and who was subsequently in ideological conflict with the aims Soviet intelligence. This changeover been facilitated in a meeting organised by General Ivan Susloparov. The group provided Trepper with intelligence on General Henri Giraud, the Dieppe Raid, coverage of Allied bombings in France and planning for Operation Torch.


 * Group Professor. It was established to collect intelligence from White Russians emigrant groups as well as from groups in the German Wehrmacht.
 * This group was run by Basile Maximovitch. Maximovitch was a former Russian mining engineer who had offered his services to Trepper and was particularly important to him as the niece of German general Carl-Heinrich von Stülpnagel, Margarete Hoffman-Scholz fell in love with Maximovitch. At the time von Stülpnagel was Commander of Greater Paris and this gave Maximovitch access to intelligence that came from German High Command.


 * Group Arztin. It was created to gather intelligence from French clerical and royalists groups. They also had a special arrangement with Bishop Emanuel-Anatole-Raphaël Chaptal de Chanteloup of Paris
 * This group was run by Anna Maximovitch who was the sister of Basile Maximovitch. Her profession as a neurologist enabled her to open a clinic in Choisy-le-Roi, a moneyed area of Paris which enabled her to pick up gossip and recruit from her patients. One of those patients was Countess de Rohan-Chabot who was came from the noble House of Rohan. The countess rented the Chateau Billeron to Maximovitch at relatively low cost to host her clinic. This gave Maximovitch access to very high ranking French nobility and administrative folk including Rohan-Chabot's husband who was a French officer.


 * Group Simex. This group collected intelligence from German administrative departments and industrial firms as well as provided the financing for the Trepper organisation. It was the Simex company.
 * This group was run Alfred Corbin who was a French commercial director who took over the running of the firm in Paris from Leon Grossvogel. At first Corbin did not know the Simex company was an espionage organisation and after a certain time became to suspect. Ultimately he accepted the position and used his business journeys to courier. Communication between the Simex company and its main customer, the Todt Organization, provided information on German military fortifications and troop movements. As a bonus, these communications supplied some of Trepper's agents with passes that allowed them to move freely in German-occupied areas.


 * Group Romeo. Their remit was to gather intelligence from US and Belgian diplomats.
 * This group was run by the communist Isidor Springer who was a Belgian diamond dealer. Mainly concerned with recruitment and acted as a courier between different groups in different countries.


 * Group Sierra. This group collected intelligence from groups around French admiral François Darlan and French general Henri Giraud. The group also had contacts with French government and administrative departments of France.
 * This group was run by the Jewish Soviet intelligence officer, Anatoly Gurevich.

Perrault
p.200 pickup of german folk by abwehr.  scope_creep Talk  21:02, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Soviet Rote Kapelle - Trepper Report
Trepper report. This is all from Trepper report.

Hermann Isbutzki, he was taken to the Gesta Po prison Breendonk admitted, tortured and sentenced to death in 1943.

On November 9, 1942, Gurevich and Barcza were arrested by French police officers in Marseilles. tet. In Lyon they were handed over by Carl Boemelburg, head of the Gestapo in Paris, and Karl Giering. taken and brought to Paris. On the night of November 11th to 12th, 1942, the southern part of France was occupied by German troops. The interrogations began on November 15 in Brussels in the presence of Giering. On November 20, Gurevich and Barcza went to Berlin relocated; Gurewitsch to the Gestapo headquarters, Prinz-Albrecht-Strasse 8, Barcza to the police headquarters dium at Alexanderplatz. At the beginning of January they were returned to the Fresnes prison in Paris. brought

Leon Großvogel is said to have been arrested on December 16, 1942.

Gurevich reported on November 18, 1942 of the existence of a "Harry" and named on December 2, 1942 the "Group Harry"

p452. Information on how Griotto arranged arrest of Harry.

Maurice Aenis-Haenslin, alias Maurice, b. February 20, 1893 in Denis, was the liaison between between Robinson and Rahel Dübendörfer, alias Sissy, in Geneva

around 40 were active in the intelligence service for the Soviet Union. The final report of the Abwehr does not name the number of those arrested. Galagan mentions 100 people arrested, 70 of them with allegedly connected to the intelligence service. Cf. Galagan, Afterword, P.376 - Note 48 Trepper report.
 * About 100 people have been arrested in France, Belgium and Holland, of which


 * Basil Maximowitsch bio. P 453

Espionage section
Done on 27 March 2021.  scope_creep Talk  15:09, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Brysac p.311. NKVD, and Beria saw the reports, and discarded them.
 * Brysac p.307 Discovery report. Only two addresses. Need to reformulate that section. No wonder it doesn't make any sense. Try and find the original ref.
 * Brysac p.439

You're wrong to say Red Orchestra wasn't controlled by Soviet Communists
See the bottom of page four of this 2011 CIA document. https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB493/docs/intell_ebb_025.PDF "Rote Kapelle (Red Orchestra) was the German code name for a highly effective Soviet military espionage operation of some 118 agents which was run in German-controlled Europe during the war. Rote Drei refers to three GRU agents in Switzerland who were connected to the Rote Kapelle network and were rolled up in 1943." Was Kisevalter Nash? (talk) 07:55, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * How goes it? It is cool that somebody is taking an interest in it. Certainly, there was a block of Soviet agents working in Switzerland, Belgium, France, the Netherlands and to a certain extent in Germany, and other countries. They weren't all Soviet agents, or working to advance Soviet spying. People came into the organisation for all sorts of reasons, mostly from a resistance angle, all types, all ages, all parts of society. Some of them thought they were working for the Soviets, when they were working for the British and occasionally the Americans. The core part of it, the Gestapo and the Abwehr, combined into the Sonderkommando Rote Kapelle, decided to tar everybody who was associated with that group, with the same brush, for expediency and political reasons/national security, but many of them weren't of that type. They were peripheral to the Soviet effort. That idea of the Gestapo/Abwehr was kept alive during the cold war right into the 1980's but it was only when the Berlin wall fell and the archives were opened in the east and Moscow later, was a more balanced and nuanced approach could be taken. Certainly, there was a large block of folk who were working for the communists and the Soviets, but there was a large block of folk, in the hundreds to the thousands, who were looking to resist, and that was one way of doing it, mainly because the Soviets didn't leave Berlin until 1941. So that 2 years of the early war, was sufficient and easy to pass documents across to the Soviet embassy.  The CIA's approach is based on work done by the British in the late 1940's. The British MI5/MI6 produced a huge report on the Rote Kapelle, and most of what the CIA did is based on that document. As a spy organisation, they never did the work to update their view, based on new research, as it is outside their purview. For them, it's ancient history, even though at the time it was important. They won't update it. It is not important to them.  For us, who can look through reams of new books, new historical research. reports, archival material, and so on, a newer view can be formulated, based on real research. That is the approach the German Wikipedia takes, and it's them that work with professional historians, that are driving this.  I hope that helps.  scope_creep Talk  09:48, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

. . . . . ..

"They weren't working to advance Soviet spying." LOL

"CIA’s Counterintelligence Staff had a lot of catching up to do (in 1947). It was not enough just to take in what allied services with longer experience could tell us. We now had the resources to unearth the all-but-forgotten testimonies of veterans of the international Communist movement and of former intelligence services of countries that were no longer independent in Eastern Europe and the Baltic. Bales of captured German files dating from 1920 to 1945 on operations against Soviet Intelligence were studied. As weak as Nazi military intelligence had proven to be in Russia, the Gestapo and related security services had detected major Soviet intelligence networks throughout Europe, principally the Rote Kapelle (Red Orchestra) and Rote Drei (Red Three, based in Switzerland), and German files on these cases contributed importantly to CIA’s nascent understanding of Soviet espionage. From evidence of massive radio deception operations against the invading Germans CIA gained insights into this aspect of Soviet counterintelligence work, including an appreciation of the KGB’s willingness to sacrifice blood and assets to support deceptions." -- Tennent H, Bagley in his 2007 book, "Spy Wars," pages 55-56

I hope you don't feel the same way about "Monastery" and "Klatt" (the terms Nigel West uses on page 4). https://www.cia.gov/static/d1d9d15944b50f5dd03133d932346b62/Review-The-Secret-War.pdf Was Kisevalter Nash? (talk) 20:03, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Another Soviet operation? I wouldn't be surprised. The network around Leopold Trepper is the true Soviet network, for this article. That bit that fully Soviet. The bit that this article covers is just one facet of Soviet intelligence during and after the war, in Europe. This guy here, Henry Robinson (spy) had a bunch of documents, called the Robinson Papers, that were analysed after the war by the British. They counted 5000 Soviet agents in the UK during and before the war. I know from experience, that as soon as you go to the edge of your knowledge on this, you come up against other networks that were perhaps visible, but never discovered. Rote Drei in Switzerland, for example. Most of it was never discovered. The Kesaris book, referenced in the article has about 30 countries in it, all with Soviet espionage networks of one form or another. It seems endless. Looking at your document, e.g. Richard Kauder The British National Archives have a document on him. . Looking at the description, it seems to be another network. I could seriously work on new articles on this for rest of my life, but it is difficult ferreting the information out. It seems genuine. There is an article on Operation Scherhorn which covers the other side. Why don't you do an article on Richard Kauder. There is stuff on Ira LONGIN That is two good articles you could write.   scope_creep Talk  20:54, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Block
In December 1941, the Funkabwehr discovered Trepper's transmitter in Brussels. Trepper himself was arrested on 5 December 1942 in Paris. The Germans tried to enlist his help as part a sophisticated anti-Soviet operation, to continue transmitting disinformation to Moscow under German control, as part of a playback (German:Funkspiel) operation. According to orders, and relying on training, Trepper agreed to work for the Germans, and began transmitting, which may have included hidden warnings, but saved his life. During September 1943 he escaped and hid with the French Resistance. Operations by the Trepper group had been entirely eliminated by the spring of 1943. Most agents were executed.

Will use later

 * ref=

Soviet Possible articles with available content

 * Nazarin Drailly
 * Isidore Springer ✅
 * Alfred Corbin. Sufficient detail for small article. ✅
 * Suzanne Giraud (has a biography out, I have it)
 * Germaine Schneider has a birthday and a decent article on Kesaris.✅
 * Basile Maximovitch ✅
 * Anna Maximovitch (has a birthday. Enough for a small article, for a stub ). ✅
 * Anton Winterink (has a german article, and mentioned in Gooulooze biography, somewhere, significant coverage) ✅
 * Medardo Griotto (two bios, de and one at  Birthday is available). ✅
 * Maurice Peper (very small article, Trepper mentions him, Kesaris has birthday)
 * Klara Schabbel (de article with birthday)
 * Käte Voelkner. De article. ✅
 * Harald Poelchau, de article. Righteous amongst the nations. Will need a full expansion.✅

To finish
 scope_creep Talk  09:09, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Add in the idiomatic translations. 80% done. ✅ done on this apart from last one.
 * Put the last reference in sfn format.
 * Expand the Rote Drei somewhat. CIA last sections. ✅ Just need to finish the arrests and death bit.
 * Finish from February 1942 to arrest of Trepper in the main The Robinson Group section. Lyon's work. Too minor for summary article. ✅
 * Start and finish the Netherlands section. Goolouze, Winterink, Group Hilda ✅
 * Summary section sourced to Guillaume Bourgeois. Still to do. Need book.
 * Mention the Knochel group linked to Dann Goulooze.

Origin
I'm not sure what's intended with this sentence, after 'and since'? "After his marriage to Libertas Schulze-Boysen née Haas-Heye in 1936, the couple collected young intellectuals from diverse backgrounds, including (list), and since Schulze-Boysen held twice-monthly meetings at his Charlottenburg atelier for thirty-five to forty people in what was considered a Bohemian circle of friends." Neils51 (talk) 01:38, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I'll take a look at it. It does look odd when its on its own.    scope_creep Talk  09:17, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Ahh..., by 'since' you are meaning 'thereafter'? Neils51 (talk) 20:07, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure but it sounds better.    scope_creep Talk  22:06, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Red orchestra folk who don't have articles.

 * No sources. ill links at best.
 * Ilse Schaeffer Part of the core Harro Schulze-Boysen group.Sculptor so probably linked to brockdorf, but no sources.
 * Hans Lautenschläger Zero on Hans. No Stolpersteine but has single book ref in the main resistance handbook
 * Else Imme De article is unsourced. Rulit.me ref proves she exist but not much beyond. Looks like family added article. No stolpersteine either.
 * Hansheinrich Kummerow (no sources, just the de article)
 * Friedrich Schauer Architect who was part of the Schürmann-Horster group. Zero real sources. Minor in the scheme of things.

I have done a before on these and there isn't much in terms of sources. I won't be working on creating articles for these.  scope_creep Talk  11:19, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Took out Ina Lautenschläger, who is Ina Ender. De article available.   scope_creep Talk  09:11, 17 February 2024 (UTC)