Talk:Red Star Belgrade/Archive 1

Requested move (Red Star Belgrade to FK Crvena Zvezda)

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

no consenus. -- Kjkolb 11:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Red Star Belgrade → FK Crvena Zvezda – This is the club's real name. All the Serbs call the side Zvezda or Crvena Zvezda. Jebise2 09:54, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Survey
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~
 * Oppose It is not surprising that Crvena Zvezda should be their name in Serbian; but what we want is what they are called in English. "Red Star Belgrade" gets 150,000 ghits beginning with the club's official page. "Crvena Zvedza" gets no more in English. Septentrionalis 18:59, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not "Crvena Zvedza", but "Crvena Zvezda". Try now (with quotation marks). I get far more results for "Crvena Zvezda" than for "Red Star Belgrade".—Vitriden 08:35, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Discussion
Add any additional comments

I would support the move, but I am not going to vote here, since I don't wish to support propositions coming from the person that has vandalized this page more than once.—Vitriden 10:55, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Coaching history
I think the coaching history should be presented like on the Partizan, since that way it's much shorter and it looks better. In other words, not sorted by the season, but by the coach. Vitriden 08:28, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, I think that rather than just listing them name-by-name there should be link to Red Star Belgrade head coaches or List of Red Star Belgrade head coaches because there's a lot to be said about many of them season-by-season and it would clutter up the main page. 65.94.128.174 22:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Is the nickname "Cigani" an insult?
I have put this nickname in the textbox, but with a note that this is mostly used in pejorative manner, although sometimes even the club supporters call themselves " Cigani ". This nickname is created by the supporters of some of the opponent clubs and it probably takes its origins from the Bad Blue Boys, the supporters of Dinamo Zagreb. I think it should stay this way. Vitriden 22:05, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The name didn't originate from Dinamo Zagreb's fans at all, but from Partizan fans way back in the 1960s. The fans outside of Belgrade and Serbia barely knew the term exists - it was more for internal Belgrade use and rival club oneupsmanship. As for whether it's insulting or not, yes, I'm sure it's initial intent was meant to be derogatory, but since Red Star fans accepted the name themselves and used it ever since - it can't really be classified as pejorative. Besides it's a lot older than Delije for example.65.94.135.162 23:53, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I would like to hear some more opinions, since there was some reverting and deleting going on about this issue, so I think it's obvious some consider this to be an insult.Vitriden 12:14, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry to say but I think this is an insult. I have never heard any fans called themselves for "Cigani". Litany 17:44, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it's a legit nickname. I've heard Red Star fans refer to themselves by that name many times. There's even a fan song: Mi smo Cigani, najjaci smo najjaci. Zvonko 16:52, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * What do you think about sometimes used in pejorative manner or something like that? Vitriden 02:25, 6 May 2006 (UTC)


 * That would be OK, as far as I'm concerned. Zvonko 18:47, 6 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok then, let's do it that way.

Vitriden 09:44, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with Litany above, I have never heard any fans refer to themselve as Cigani and I believe it serves little purpose other than to displease fans. To draw a parallel, do other club sites have disparaging nicknames in wiki? For example, Manchester United are widely referred to as "Scum", "Man Ure" and more recently "Manchester United Bucaneers" however the only nickname entered is "The Red Devils". I see no benefit of having debatable disparaging nicknames, it just opens the door for unecessary conflict IMO. Just my 2 cents.

batobatobato 10:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I think it is the same case as with Partizan. Red Star fans were calling them "Grobari" which was an insult but then Partizan fans took it over and it changed the meaning of this expression. mikolaj

Requested move
Page should be moved to the local name (FK Crvena Zvezda or Crvena Zvezda) page, in consistence with other football club pages. UEFA.com official club page uses "FK Crvena Zvezda" as club name. Other clubs are named by their local names, rather than by "common English names" in Wikipedia (see SK Rapid Wien, Bayern Munich, Lokomotiv Moscow, Beşiktaş).


 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~ . Please note the desired name (FK Crvena Zvezda or Crvena Zvezda) if you support the move.


 * Support (FK Crvena Zvezda variant). Explanation above. Monkbel 14:24, 11 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Oppose Its common name in English is Red Star Belgrade. --Henrygb 21:33, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
 * It used to be common... but now it seems not so one-sided. See above --Monkbel 13:24, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Bayern Munich and Lokomotiv Moscow are the common names in English: what language(s) do you think they are in? The Red Star Belgrade's English website http://www.fc-redstar.net/home.aspx?cultureID=1 calls itself "Red Star" --Henrygb 16:26, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Bayern is in German (Bavaria in English); Lokomotiv is in Russian (Locomotive in English). Don't know what about that English website but it seems strange... though a lot of local organisations have weird English pages on their site (mainly due to lack of professionalism). --Monkbel 16:36, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * But did you spot that Munich and Moscow are in English? What seems strange about the Red Star website? Sale of tickets? Reports of recent games? You can find the Serbian version for Црвена Звезда at http://www.fc-redstar.net/home.aspx?cultureID=2 (spot the clue in the URL) --Henrygb 00:23, 13 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Oppose Henrygb is right. Borisblue 23:14, 11 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Support (Crvena Zvezda variant but would prefer either over English name). FC Cologne re-directs to 1. FC Köln, and UEFA and FIFA both call the club "Crvena Zvezda" on their respective English-language websites, why should here be any different? [dM] 11:50, 12 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Support On the one hand this is the English version of wikipedia.  However, I do see the value in using non-Anglicized placenames/proper names where possible (München, Buchuresti, etc) as long as we make sure to do a redirect.  See IFK Göteborg.  The English would have been FC Gothenberg, yuck.  Why should a Serbian team be treated differently?--Pocket Rockets 05:00, 13 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Support I think a redirect could solve the problem, and the english translation should be mentioned in the article. Gryffindor  01:05, 14 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Oppose. I already explained the relevant policies below, and my ordering was supposed to be indicative. The first-mentioned common name policy should be followed and the current name ("Red Star Belgrade") should stay. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93;


 * Support. I think it should be moved to its Serbian name. Usually I oppose any moves from welknown English names to local names since this is indeed English Wikipedia but both UEFA and FIFA agrees on this point. I can do tell you that even in Sweden we say "Röda Stjärnan", which is a direct translation, and commonly nothing else. Litany


 * Oppose: use English. Krugs 00:51, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Oppose: use English. Thumbelina 17:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Support it is the proper name of the club. if someone is afraid that people would not be able to find this web page under serbian name redirection from english "red star" would solve the problem

Discussion

 * Add any additional comments

page name
I propose to move page to FK Crvena Zvezda. It is much more appropriate. Why we here (in encyclopaedia!) should use "common English name"? For example, club that is commonly known in English as "Besiktas" has its page on Beşiktaş.. and so on - all clubs have pages in their local language (while it is in (extended) latin alphabet). --Monkbel 21:30, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I agree with going with the Serbian name. Or if not, at least make it FULLY english - i.e. "FC Red Star". FK stands for 'Fudbalski Klub', if we will use the "common English name" then it should be 'Football Club'. --[dM] 05:42, 30 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Quite. Either it should be named according to Naming conventions (common names), which is "Red Star Belgrade", or use the local name combined with the aforementioned convention, which would be simply "Crvena Zvezda" (unless there are other significant organizations of the same name that would get an article). --Joy &#91;shallot&#93;   07:51, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Descision
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. Ryan Norton T 07:15, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Red Star won UEFA Champions League
Yougoslavia was created in 1918.even though the name of the country from 1918.to 1929.was "Kingdom of Serbs,Croats and Slovenes".UEFA Champions League was created in 1955.even though the name of the competition from 1955.to 1993.was "European Cup".

No, both Internazionale and Nottingham Forest, for example, have the pages with this same trophy named "European Cup", because that's the name of the trophy the time they won it. I can't see a single reason to rename the trophy years after it was won by Red Star. Vitriden 17:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

No,if we leave name "European Cup" for the competition Red Star won in 1991,many people will think Red Star never won UEFA Champions League.

OK, this becomes very annoying. First of all, Red Star did not win UEFA Champions League, that is simply untrue. If someone doesn't know that European cup is the predecessor of the Champions League, we can explain that in the text, but don't say Red Star won Champions League (and even delete the link to the European cup 1990/91, which is something I can't explain), since it wasn't the name of the competition in 1991. I don't see what makes Red Star so different to the clubs mentioned above, since they have all won this competition before 1993, and I don't understand what bothers you about that, since this was European first-rank competition at the time. And, secondly, the rivalry with Partizan exists, and your problem with it proves it. All of the club pages mention such rivalries, and I can't see what makes Red Star an exception. I'll revert it again and I hope you won't revert it back, because the info you have placed here is false. Simple as that.

Vitriden 22:38, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Folowing your logic,Yugoslavia did not exist in 1924

PS Partizan supporters have inferiority complex so there is no real rivalry.

OK, sad sam ispizdeo, pa ću na srpskom. Jesi li ti, kojim slučajem živeo u zemlji koja se od 1992. do 2003. zvala SR Jugoslavija, a zatim od 2003. do 2006. Srbija i Crna Gora? Ista zemlja, raličit naziv. I svugde piše da je prvak sveta u košarci 1998. i 2002. bila Jugoslavija, jer se zemlja tako zvala, jebote!!!! Niko to nije menjao u Srbija i Crna Gora, niti će sada menjati u Srbija. Po tvojoj logici, Nikola Tesla je rođen u Hrvatskoj, a ne u Austro-Ugarskoj. Ne mogu se retroaktivno menjati imena. Ne, Jugoslavija nije postojala 1924, postojao je njen prethodnik, Kraljevina Srba, Hrvata i Slovenaca. ŠTA TU NIJE JASNO???

Što se tiče inferiornosti navijača Partizana, ovo je zaista strašno. Ja navijam za Zvezdu, ali ovakva glupost je teško objašnjiva. To su dva najveća kluba u Beogradu i Srbiji i činjenica je da rivalitet postoji. Zvezda je osvojila Kup šampiona, Partizan je igrao u finalu. To su zaista visoki dometi, pošto je sa celog Balkana samo još Steaua igrala u finalu. Dakle, to su veliki klubovi, a to što ti njima imputiraš inferiornost, samo pokazuje tvoju inferiornost. Ovo je kao navijači Seltika tvrde da ne postoji rivalitet sa Rendžersom, pošto oni nisu osvojili Kup šampiona.

Samo jedno pitanje: koliko godina imaš? Iskreno.

Pozdrav,

Vitriden 17:13, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry Vitriden but could you please translate that to English? :) Thanks - Litany 12:21, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me, I thought there's nobody else reading this. Well, rough translation would be:

''OK, I'm pissed of now, so I'm gonna write this in Serbian. Have you, by any chance, lived in the country named FR Yugoslavia from 1992 to 2003, and then named Serbia and Montenegro in the period 2003-2006? It's the same country with different name. And everything I have read says the name of the basketball world champion 1998 and 2002 is Yugoslavia, because it was the name of the country at the time. Nobody has changed it to Serbia and Montenegro, nor will change it to Serbia now. Following your logic, Nikola Tesla was born in Croatia, not in Austria-Hungary. You can't change the names retroactively. And no, Yugoslavia did not exist back in 1924, but its predecessor, The Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes existed. What is not to understand there?

''And about inferiority of the Partuzan fans I can say only one thing - this is totally ridiculous. I am a Red Star fan, but this kind of stupidity is hard to explain. These are the two biggest clubs in Belgrade and the whole of Serbia and the fact is the rivalry exists. Red Star won European cup and Partizan played in the finals. These are really high achievements, especially because there is no other Balkan team, besides Steaua, that played in the finals of the most prominent European football cup. So, Red Star and Partizan are really big clubs and the fact you consider Partizan fans inferior shows nothing but your own inferiority. This is the same as if some Celtic fan would claim that there is no rivalry with Glasgow Rangers, since thay haven't won European cup.

''And just one more question: how old are you? Please, be honest.

''Sincerely yours,

''Vitriden 13:55, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Which prestigious encyclopedia says that Yugoslavia was created in 1929?

As far as inferiority complex is concerned,yes Celtic did won UEFA Champions League but Rangers has been more times Scottish League Champions than Celtic which is not the case with Partizan.Partizan is inferior to Red Star in almost everything.

I am tired of this. If you want to change it to this ridiculous nonsense, in contradiction to common sense, basic logic and all the other pages in Wikipedia, go ahead, change it. I won't revert it anymore. Good bye, I really don't have to take this shit anymore. You are an idiot. Best of luck, Vitriden 15:01, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I understand that you are tired but somehow we could resolve this question. Best regards Litany 12:40, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

You are an idiot because you do not understand that "UEFA Champions League" and "European Cup" is the SAME COMPETITION.UEFA did not abolish European Cup,UEFA renamed European Cup. -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.136.139.227 (talk • contribs) 19:52, 16 July 2006.


 * Please don't make personal attacks on other users. Calling people "idiots" isn't helpful or acceptable behaviour, and it could get you blocked if you persist. -- ChrisO 17:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

translation in infobox
Please give your feedback on my changes, perhaps not include the Cyrillic version? // laughing man 04:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Coaching history
I think the coaching history should be presented like on the Partizan, since that way it's much shorter and it looks better. In other words, not sorted by the season, but by the coach. Vitriden 08:28, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, I think that rather than just listing them name-by-name there should be link to Red Star Belgrade head coaches or List of Red Star Belgrade head coaches because there's a lot to be said about many of them season-by-season and it would clutter up the main page. 65.94.128.174 22:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Is the nickname "Cigani" an insult?
I have put this nickname in the textbox, but with a note that this is mostly used in pejorative manner, although sometimes even the club supporters call themselves " Cigani ". This nickname is created by the supporters of some of the opponent clubs and it probably takes its origins from the Bad Blue Boys, the supporters of Dinamo Zagreb. I think it should stay this way. Vitriden 22:05, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The name didn't originate from Dinamo Zagreb's fans at all, but from Partizan fans way back in the 1960s. The fans outside of Belgrade and Serbia barely knew the term exists - it was more for internal Belgrade use and rival club oneupsmanship. As for whether it's insulting or not, yes, I'm sure it's initial intent was meant to be derogatory, but since Red Star fans accepted the name themselves and used it ever since - it can't really be classified as pejorative. Besides it's a lot older than Delije for example.65.94.135.162 23:53, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I would like to hear some more opinions, since there was some reverting and deleting going on about this issue, so I think it's obvious some consider this to be an insult.Vitriden 12:14, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry to say but I think this is an insult. I have never heard any fans called themselves for "Cigani". Litany 17:44, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it's a legit nickname. I've heard Red Star fans refer to themselves by that name many times. There's even a fan song: Mi smo Cigani, najjaci smo najjaci. Zvonko 16:52, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

NO! Our nickname is Delije "Heroes", cigani is just pathetic insult of grobari fans (Verbatimdat (talk) 16:44, 12 February 2010 (UTC))


 * What do you think about sometimes used in pejorative manner or something like that? Vitriden 02:25, 6 May 2006 (UTC)


 * That would be OK, as far as I'm concerned. Zvonko 18:47, 6 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok then, let's do it that way.

Vitriden 09:44, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with Litany above, I have never heard any fans refer to themselve as Cigani and I believe it serves little purpose other than to displease fans. To draw a parallel, do other club sites have disparaging nicknames in wiki? For example, Manchester United are widely referred to as "Scum", "Man Ure" and more recently "Manchester United Bucaneers" however the only nickname entered is "The Red Devils". I see no benefit of having debatable disparaging nicknames, it just opens the door for unecessary conflict IMO. Just my 2 cents.

batobatobato 10:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Requested move 1
Page should be moved to the local name (FK Crvena Zvezda or Crvena Zvezda) page, in consistence with other football club pages. UEFA.com official club page uses "FK Crvena Zvezda" as club name. Other clubs are named by their local names, rather than by "common English names" in Wikipedia (see SK Rapid Wien, Bayern Munich, Lokomotiv Moscow, Beşiktaş).


 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~ . Please note the desired name (FK Crvena Zvezda or Crvena Zvezda) if you support the move.


 * Support (FK Crvena Zvezda variant). Explanation above. Monkbel 14:24, 11 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Oppose Its common name in English is Red Star Belgrade. --Henrygb 21:33, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
 * It used to be common... but now it seems not so one-sided. See above --Monkbel 13:24, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Bayern Munich and Lokomotiv Moscow are the common names in English: what language(s) do you think they are in? The Red Star Belgrade's English website http://www.fc-redstar.net/home.aspx?cultureID=1 calls itself "Red Star" --Henrygb 16:26, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Bayern is in German (Bavaria in English); Lokomotiv is in Russian (Locomotive in English). Don't know what about that English website but it seems strange... though a lot of local organisations have weird English pages on their site (mainly due to lack of professionalism). --Monkbel 16:36, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * But did you spot that Munich and Moscow are in English? What seems strange about the Red Star website? Sale of tickets? Reports of recent games? You can find the Serbian version for Црвена Звезда at http://www.fc-redstar.net/home.aspx?cultureID=2 (spot the clue in the URL) --Henrygb 00:23, 13 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Oppose Henrygb is right. Borisblue 23:14, 11 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Support (Crvena Zvezda variant but would prefer either over English name). FC Cologne re-directs to 1. FC Köln, and UEFA and FIFA both call the club "Crvena Zvezda" on their respective English-language websites, why should here be any different? [dM] 11:50, 12 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Support On the one hand this is the English version of wikipedia.  However, I do see the value in using non-Anglicized placenames/proper names where possible (München, Buchuresti, etc) as long as we make sure to do a redirect.  See IFK Göteborg.  The English would have been FC Gothenberg, yuck.  Why should a Serbian team be treated differently?--Pocket Rockets 05:00, 13 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Support I think a redirect could solve the problem, and the english translation should be mentioned in the article. Gryffindor  01:05, 14 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Oppose. I already explained the relevant policies below, and my ordering was supposed to be indicative. The first-mentioned common name policy should be followed and the current name ("Red Star Belgrade") should stay. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93;


 * Support. I think it should be moved to its Serbian name. Usually I oppose any moves from welknown English names to local names since this is indeed English Wikipedia but both UEFA and FIFA agrees on this point. I can do tell you that even in Sweden we say "Röda Stjärnan", which is a direct translation, and commonly nothing else. Litany


 * Oppose. I think when writing in English language, one should use English words. The best example is that in the very same wikipedia, page of our country is SERBIA, not SRBIJA. Of course, anybody is welcome to translate this page in serbian, and put it on serbian wiki. Furthermore, this page should be intended for people from all over the world who might want to find out things about Red Star - the name used when team plays abroad, the name used in any foreign media, and the name under which official web site is. Also, keep in mind that while Besiktas, Bayern or Lokomotiv are pronounced pretty much the same whether written in english or local alphabet, CRVENA ZVEZDA is unpronounceable to the most of people on planet earth, and wildly different from expected RED STAR. I think this page should welcome people from all over the world, and show them greatness of Red Star.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by MisterNo900 (talk • contribs) 18:02, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Oppose - The club's official English website refers to the club as FC Red Star. If anything, that is what the article should be called. - PeeJay 01:27, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Discussion 1

 * Add any additional comments

page name
I propose to move page to FK Crvena Zvezda. It is much more appropriate. Why we here (in encyclopaedia!) should use "common English name"? For example, club that is commonly known in English as "Besiktas" has its page on Beşiktaş.. and so on - all clubs have pages in their local language (while it is in (extended) latin alphabet). --Monkbel 21:30, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I agree with going with the Serbian name. Or if not, at least make it FULLY english - i.e. "FC Red Star". FK stands for 'Fudbalski Klub', if we will use the "common English name" then it should be 'Football Club'. --[dM] 05:42, 30 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Quite. Either it should be named according to Naming conventions (common names), which is "Red Star Belgrade", or use the local name combined with the aforementioned convention, which would be simply "Crvena Zvezda" (unless there are other significant organizations of the same name that would get an article). --Joy &#91;shallot&#93;   07:51, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Descision 1
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. Ryan Norton T 07:15, 17 October 2005 (UTC)