Talk:Red Star Belgrade/Archive 3

Requested move 3

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

No consensus to move. Hús ö  nd  05:56, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Seeing as the page has been moved back and forth lately, I think this might be about time to decide on its destiny once and for all. Please read what I'm saying carefully before making your desicion. I was the one who strongly supported moving the Ukrainian and Romanian clubs, but this one is quite different. It clearly does not fall under the WP:NC. It's the name of the club that is being translated here and that's just not right. Otherwise we should really have Royal Madrid and not Real Madrid, Energy Cottbus, not Energie Cottbus, Future Vuljandi in place of Tulevik Viljandi, CSAC Moscow instead of CSKA Moscow, I can go on forever, but you should've gotten my point by now. The only difference is that Crvena Zvezda was indeed commonly known as Red Star, probably until mid-90s, but the club is known as Crvena Zvezda nowadays, even despite the fact that their english website is located at another domain.
 * Comment WP:NC has been updated since this RM was started (and after the last !vote) and now states that the name on the club's English website should be used. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  10:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * WP:NC states that the official name should be used. Ban  Ray  20:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I would say the club's official website is likely to contain the club's official name! пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  12:18, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The qualifying text is "in cases where there is no ambiguity whatsoever as to the official spelling of a club's name in English". I find it difficult to believe that someone could expect that this omission would go unnoticed. Chris Cunningham (talk) 21:03, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Support by the nominator   Ban Ray   11:32, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose The club refer to themselves as Red Star on their official website, and the BBC also still uses Red Star (this article is from August 2007). пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  12:29, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Reply The club was announced as Crvena Zvezda at the latest Champions League draw. That means that the club refer to themselves as Crvena Zvezda. Video   Ban Ray   18:28, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Reply - Nothing of the sort! They were referred to as "Crvena Zvezda" at the CL draw because that's how they were registered with UEFA. The club still refers to itself as "Red Star" on its English website. - PeeJay 18:43, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Reply - Clubs don't create websites, nor do they register domains. The fact that UEFA referred to them as Crvena Zvezda, means that the club referred to themselves as crvena Zvezda while submitting their official entry. IT guys may write whatever they want, but if the club refers to themselves as Crvena Zvezda in official documents, then that's how they refer to themselves in general.  Ban  Ray  19:45, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, but UEFA also refer to Bayern Munich as Bayern München, and get the names at least one club completely wrong, so I don't really think their naming standard can be trusted. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  19:50, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Which club is that? - MTC 19:53, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * "Hapoel" Bnei Sakhnin. The club is called Ihud Bnei Sakhnin. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  20:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Their Hebrew name appears to begin with הפועל (Hpw'l), the same as the start of Hapoel Tel-Aviv's. I doubt the Hebrew Wikipedia would be wrong about that, it seems you are wrong. - MTC 21:01, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, I am fully aware of that (being a Hebrew speaker). However, it is possible that this mistake comes from UEFA themselves. The only Sakhnin website (which is down) does not call them Hapoel, and they are also not listed as that in the IFA's club list. Also note that the ar.wiki does not include Hapoel apart from when translating from Hebrew (possibly taking the he.wiki's apparent mistake). пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  21:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Anyway, all this is beside the point. The clear fact is that the club call themselves Red Star. On that basis It couldn't be more obvious what the answer to this renaming question is (though I would support PeeJay's suggestion of Red Star Belgrade (with no FC) based on WP:COMMONNAME). пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  23:28, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * That's not the same though, UEFA refer to Bayern as Bayern München because they don't "translate" city names. On wikipedia we do, it's the official policy or convention, whatever you call it. As I've already said, this case is different because it's not the city name we're talking about. As for UEFA being an unrelieble source, again, it's not UEFA who write articles on their website. Find me an official document or a draw where they misspell a name and we'll talk about it. Ban  Ray  20:51, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, UEFA refer to teams by their (transliterated, in the case of non-Latin alphabets) local names, as that is how the teams register with UEFA, what with it being a European organisation and all, and therefore having no single official language. - PeeJay 00:33, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Whilst it is not proof of correctness, it is interesting to note that around half the other language wikis use translations of the name rather than the Serbian, e.g. es:Estrella Roja de Belgrado, nl:Rode Ster Belgrado. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  12:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Support - FK Crvena Zvezda or FK Crvena zvezda is the local official name. - MTC 12:42, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, but this is en.wiki, not sr.wiki. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  12:45, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a name, it should not be translated, so it doesn't matter what language we're using. - MTC 14:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment - The club is becoming better known as "Crvena Zvezda", but since the club refers to itself as "FC Red Star" on the English version of its official website, that is the only name I would support a move to. "FC Red Star Belgrade", as it is now, is a bastardisation of the club's official name and what most people know it as. It's got to be either "FC Red Star" or "Red Star Belgrade", but not a combination of the two. - PeeJay 13:33, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Reply - Jay, Please refer to my reply to Number 57, cheers.   Ban Ray   18:39, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Question/Comment: Why are majority of those commenting on the name of this article have never contributed to it at all previously? It would be nice if all of you help to improve this article as the most notable football club in Serbia should have a higher quality article for the better of Wikipedia. // laughing man 20:05, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Support - it should definitely be moved somewhere else, because nobody ever refers to this club as "FC Red Star Belgrade" (1 hit at BBC). It turns out BBC also prefers the Serbian name, which is relevant because they normally prefer the English name. Obviously UEFA also uses the Serbian name so I think that these two pieces of evidence are enough to support a move. ugen64 03:56, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose - this is the English Wikipedia, so the English equivalent should be preferred when widely used by English-language media, such as in this case. --Angelo 09:33, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - I wouldn't say the English-language media "prefer" the English name. For instance, BBC has 2000 hits for the English version (some of them irrelevant) and 9000 hits for the Serbian version (I imagine all of them are relevant). Similarly, SkySports.com has 200 hits for the English version and 2000 hits for the Serbian version. I think that's pretty conclusive. ugen64 06:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Support move to either Red Star Belgrade or FK Crvena Zvezda, as per Ugen64. My preference would be Crvena Zvezda as it is the official name of the club, but then I'm fairly sure that those English speaking people who remember the clubs heyday in the 80s & early 90s remember them as Red Star. Whatever the case FK should not be translated to FC, thats just absurd. King of the  North  East  19:54, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * So it's absurd for the club to explicitly refer to themselves as "FC Red Star" on their own website? – PeeJay 14:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Seeing as the above is probably a no consensus, I have moved the article to Red Star Belgrade to avoid the bastardisation of the FC at the start (as noted by King of the North East). пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  01:39, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * NO ONE recently asked the article to moved to "Red Star Belgrade" which is more of a "bastardization" than FC Red Star Belgrade, which is the consensus version. // laughing man 22:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, two people did. Read the above discussion. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  22:45, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * WHEN did they? And WHEN did you move the page? // laughing man 22:56, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * In the most recent discussion. I waited just over a month to move it because I was waiting for an uninvolved admin to close the RM, though it seems to have been overlooked. Also, please don't write in capitals, it is not very WP:CIVIL. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  22:59, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * 66% for move, so I'm not so sure, I'll put it back if you don't mind. Ban  Ray  09:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Put it back to FC Red Star Belgrade? It was pointed out that such a title is incorrect. It's either FC Red Star or Red Star Belgrade. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  09:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Back to RM list, chill mate ;) Ban  Ray  10:08, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, ok. Was the sports team naming policy finalised when this move was suggested? If not, it might change things, as it says that the official English name used by a club (i.e. on their website) is preferred to the local name - this means that by the rules of the policy, FC Red Star is preferred to Crvena Zvezda... пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  10:17, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, we can leave this one aside and start a new one if you think that would be the right thing to do. Ban  Ray  10:22, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps; the discussion above seems to have been forgotten about, and there is at least one other unclosed requested move higher up the page. The policy seems to have changed since it started too. I guess it depends what you want the article to be moved to; I'm not sure it would be worth doing an RM to Crvena Zvezda now as it is blatantly against the policy, but if you want to move it to FC Red Star, then it would probably be worth starting a new one. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  10:39, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I disagree, I still haven't seen any evidence that the club's official name is Red Star. Plus, according to WP:NC: "Naming conventions are a list of guidelines on how to create and name pages. These are conventions, not rules carved in stone", meaning there's always room for expeption if consensus is reached. Otherwise what would we need WP:RM for. So let's wait for a while and see if someone finally decides to close this debate. Ban  Ray  13:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Their English website refers to them only as FC Red Star (even the stadium is not referred to using Crvena Zvezda - they use Marakana instead). пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  13:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I've already addressed this issue before. Ban  Ray  14:06, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You said "Clubs don't create websites". Are you suggested that Arsenal have nothing to do with Arsenal.com? Of course clubs create websites, as that is their official face on the web. It is quite simple; the policy states that how a club refers to itself on its official website is a sign of no amiguity. Also, I don't believe clubs submit their own name to UEFA, the national associations do it. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  14:13, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe, but who submits names to their associations? Anyway, going back to the "official website" argument, look at FC Moscow's website, they inconsistently refer to themselves as FC Moscow, FC Moskva and FK Moskva. Clubs don't create websites, IT personnel do. Ban  Ray  14:27, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, but the IT personnel are employed by the club and probably have some instruction on what to put in it. I wouldn't expect to find anything on the website of my employer which it didn't approve of. Anyway, that issue is irrelevant here; the policy is as it is; if you want to change it, go for it (personally, I am not happy with the policy either, but we have to stick with it). пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  14:30, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * See, the policy is created by users on the principles of simple majority. The policy also states that there is always room for exception and arguable cases should be decided by consensus, since convention is nothing more than a guideline. Also I find it rather unfair that we now have to reach clear consensus to move the page back, despite the fact that it was moved here without any prior discussion, because no chance it would've been moved here through WP:RM in the first place. Ban  Ray  14:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Support - no need to translate organisation names into ham-English. - fchd (talk) 13:45, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Support - as I've already said before, Crvena zvezda(in quotations) gets more google hits than Red Star Belgrade and it's the original name. Simple as that.--Vitriden (talk) 13:53, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * No it doesn't; Crvena zvezda gets 212,000; Red Star Belgrade gets 713,000. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  13:58, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter, nowadays Crvena Zvezda is used far more often in official sources, it migh've been the other way round ten years ago, but things have changed. Ban  Ray  14:06, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I have some troubles with Google now,(I can't open it!?), but at Yahoo I get 918,000 hits for "Red Star Belgrade" and 1,190,000 for "Crvena zvezda". I really don't know what's the difference between Google and Yahoo, but these are the facts. --Vitriden (talk) 14:07, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * As I already said in the sports team naming convention discussion, the Google test is not always good in cases like these: what we need to have is a method to measure the number of reliable sources featuring one or the other name. In fact, if you try out a Google News test, you can find out Red Star Belgrade is more popular than Crvena Zvezda (234 hits   against 72). --Angelo (talk) 22:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose, WP:ENGLISH trumps the club's registered title. I'd never use the club's registered title in real life unless for some reason I was signing their UEFA papers. Chris Cunningham (talk) 14:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment I think there is no consensus in support of the move right now (personal opinion of mine, obviously). In any case, let me remind you we have built a naming convention for sports teams, and it should be followed with common sense. I know for good it's not carved into stone, but it's definitely clear there's no current clear support for a different article name. That's all. --Angelo (talk) 14:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Just as there's no support for the current name. Angelo, the problem is that this page was moved here without any consensus at all, and now, all of a sudden, we need overwhelming consensus to move it back. Let's say some admin decides to move it back to Crvena Zvezda tomorrow, for whatever reason he might have, would that mean that the article would stay there for good, because no way you'll be able to reach, as you say, "clear consensus" to move it back here. Ban  Ray  17:35, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you talking about the move from FC Red Star Belgrade to Red Star Belgrade? To be honest, I don't really see it as a move, as it still retains the wording "Red Star Belgrade", it was more of a correction, insomuchas whilst FC Red Star (official), Red Star Belgrade (common) and Crvena Zvezda (local) are all legitimate alternatives, FC Red Star Belgrade (a mishmash of official and common) was not. I just moved it to closest legitimate option. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  17:51, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * No, I was talking about the move from FK Crvena Zvezda to FC Red Star Belgrade. Ban  Ray  18:09, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, but it's only been located at Crvena Zvezda for five weeks out of the last four years. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  18:27, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually there's no consensus for both names (Crvena Zvezda and Red Star). In controversial cases like these, I think the current naming convention should be firmly followed. That's all, guys. --Angelo (talk) 18:37, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment I don't think it's so important to make a decision about the name, since, obviously, sooner or later, someone will show up and question whatever decision we make. There is a redirect and both names are mentioned in the introduction, so this is not such an important issue. It would be much better if all the contributors here have tried to arrange the page so it looks decent, since it looks pretty bad right now, and there's nobody trying to improve it, while we argue about something as unimportant and trivial as the name of the article. Let's make a proper article, and then we can call it whatever we like. I have 226 contributions to this article, and if everyone here did a tenth part of that, this could've been a featured article. Yet, you keep running this senseless argument, that contributes nothing to the quality of the article.--Vitriden (talk) 15:13, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Strong Support Sports media overwhemingly uses Crvena Zvezda these days, including the BBC (examples - |1,|2) Sky Sports (|1, |2) ESPN Soccernet (|1, |2) CNN (|example) Yahoo! Sports (|example) Footymad.net (|example) Goal.com (|example) Football365.com (|example) SportingLife.com (|example) As for the newspapers... The New York Times (|example) USA Today (|example) The Sun (|example) The Telegraph (|example) The Guardian (|example) .....OK so the media and UEFA uses Crvena Zvezda. Plus "Red Star Belgrade" goes against WP policy as like the editor who requested move said, what's next... changing Real Madrid to Royal Madrid? Crvena Zvezda is the official name. WP should use it. --Tocino 19:48, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The BBC links (at least) are disingenuous. The BBC in general does not refer to the team by the proposed title. They do so in various links to official statistics, but when discussing the team they use the English name. Chris Cunningham (talk) 19:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Crvena Zvezda is the official name while Red Star Belgrade is the casual and outdated term. For naming sports teams articles, WP usually uses the official name instead of the casual term, like Sporting Clube de Portugal instead of Sporting Lisbon. --Tocino 20:10, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * In that case it's incorrect to do so, per WP:ENGLISH. I'd argue that it does not usually ignore usual English usage, per Bayern Munich ( bigger team). Chris Cunningham (talk) 20:37, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Serbs use both Cyrillic and Latin scripts and the club's official name in Latin script is FK Crvena Zvezda, so WP:ENGLISH is absolutely irrelevant here. Ban  Ray  11:55, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Not so - WP:ENGLISH does not only apply to transliterations; otherwise we would have articles located at Wien, München and Göteborg, as they are all in countries where Latin script is used. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  13:58, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * But as I've already said, Crvena Zvezda is the most commonly used English name nowadays as well, so WP:ENGLISH is irrelevant either way. Red Star is just an outdated term. Also, I went to their UEFA Cup game in Tallinn last summer, and their was no mention of Red Star in the game program either. Ban  Ray  14:24, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I would assume the program was in Estonian, so of course it wouldn't use Red Star! Anyway, as said many many times, the club calls themselves FC Red Star on their official website, and that is what the new policy dictates should be used in priority. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  15:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * With due respect, this may be true in some nebulous, Googlesque way, but it's absolutely untrue in the English vernacular (I doubt most pundits or casual fans could pronounce Crvena Zvezda, let alone that they commonly use it). Chris Cunningham (talk) 18:39, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Strong Support per common use. Club is called "Crvena Zvezda" by most English language media these days, and it is also their official Latin script name (as per UEFA). See stats in comments above. "Red Star" is legacy name, under which club was famous decades ago, and should be mentioned in article. --Monk (talk) 13:46, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * As pointed out several times above, the club's official website refers to themselves as "FC Red Star", and using Crvena Zvezda is therefore completely against the two most obvious policies to follow here, i.e. WP:ENGLISH and WP:NC. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  13:55, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * As I already pointed out above, a Google News test returns more hits for Red Star Belgrade than for Crvena Zvezda (226 hits   against 71 as of today).  --Angelo (talk) 14:33, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose as earlier: Call it Red Star Belgrade in English Wikipedia. Official  site http://www.fc-redstar.net/ may be a clue. --Rumping (talk) 09:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose because no one not familiar with Serbian would get that its Red Star Belgrade. And as others have posted, English homepage. Chandler talk 10:31, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * If no English speakers can recognize Crvena Zvezda, then why does the English-speaking media use it so much? --Tocino 23:22, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * They don't, in my experience, use it if they can get away with "Red Star Belgrade". I wouldn't be arguing to the contrary otherwise. Chris Cunningham (talk) 23:30, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * All of those links I provided prove that usage of Crvena Zvezda is widespread in the English speaking media. Whether they throw in Red Star Belgrade or not doesn't matter. If they do then it's something like, "Crvena Zvezda, the club formerly known as Red Star Belgrade,..." Chandlar said that no one, meaning English speakers, can recognize Crvena Zvezda if they don't understand the Serbian language. That statement is incorrect. --Tocino 00:04, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * You haven't proven this at all. My point was that in the English vernacular the Serbian name is little-used. 25 links to instances where it is quoted on websites does not disprove this any more than if I were to request that Santa Claus be moved to Weihnachtsmann because I could provide 30 websites which used the term. Neither WP:NAME nor WP:ENGLISH supports this move. It should be dismissed for good. Chris Cunningham (talk) 02:05, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You have provided no evidence that Crvena Zvezda is "little-used" in the English speaking world. Your argument is based on WP:OR and I have disproven it by showing you all of the media outlets that use Crvena Zvezda. --Tocino, 04:54. 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You seem to be forgetting the new naming conventions for sports teams. Red Star Belgrade have an English-language website (http://www.fc-redstar.net/home.aspx?cultureID=1), which uses an English name for the club (FC Red Star Belgrade ). The name "Red Star Belgrade" has been adopted by a significant section of the English media, it is immediately recognisable, and it is not easily confused with other teams' names. Therefore, by the Wikipedia naming conventions for sports teams, the official team name should be used, and I believe that should be "FC Red Star". – PeeJay 02:48, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I know it's the policy but I believe there's an exception in this case with the media and UEFA using Crvena Zvezda. I would be supportive of a compromise to FC Red Star. Red Star Belgrade is equivalent to Arsenal London. Belgrade has no place in the club's official name. --Tocino 18:51, 7 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose Should be Red Star Belgrade on WP:en. Most likely to generate a hit here, and can be sorted out in the first paragraph of the article. Wiggy! (talk) 22:18, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Condemned harshly and strongly oppose The article is a "no ambiguity" article obviously - according to the club's official website. Raymond Giggs 17:59, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose per NC but would support FC Red Star as English name used at official site and fan site. —  AjaxSmack   21:05, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose it's the old Rome / Roma debate yet again. We go with the name of greatest notability in English. --Dweller (talk) 11:23, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Use common English name. --203.94.135.134 (talk) 03:54, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose of course. Uses "Red Star" at english language website, so naming policy is against move. News hits for "fc red star"=26, for "red star belgrade"=4880. As for "FC Red Star instead of Red Star Belgrade"... what is www.redstarbelgrade.com but official website? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcmullen writes (talk • contribs) 22:00, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Discussion
People say Red Star Belgrade is not official, but www.redstarbelgrade.com is official site, one of three listed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcmullen writes (talk • contribs) 22:05, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.