Talk:Reformed Political League

Redirect
The accompanying Redirect was formerly a undefined pg.

The supposed Dab entry does not serve to disambiguate, but only to express a theory to obscure to be taken seriously at the article it targets; if GPV deserves no coverage in a WWII context (say an article abt the use of the term, explaining it sufficiently that the potential connection could be grasped, and the reasons for the GPV not being universally accepted presented, then it is too obscure to be used as a means of getting readers to Jeep, who hear the term "GPV" but don't know to look at Jeep without a Dab. --Jerzy•t 08:12, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * GPV, GP or VGP could be the origin of the term Jeep
 * If that situation should change, it can become a HatNote Dab at Reformed Political Alliance. --Jerzy•t 08:18, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was moved. Academic usage does not override the WP:COMMONNAME. Aervanath (talk) 15:21, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Reformed Political League → GPV — Per WP:ENGLISH. The initialism is not ambiguous, the party is known primarily by the initialism, and the English translation of the expanded name is very rarely used (less than a hundred ghits). — Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:50, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.


 * Against moving C mon (talk) 10:30, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:
 * I oppose moving this page back to GPV:
 * Reformed Political League is the translation used by prof. R.B. Andeweg and Prof. G.A. Irwin in their handbook on Dutch Politics "Governance and Politics of the Netherlands" (2002:45). A reliable, external, academic source. It think that this suffices for established usage
 * Your google search may indicate that this term is not used often, but all 99 hits concern this specific Dutch party, so atleast it is not ambiguous. Almost all of these 99 hits are code books of scientific studies or articles in refereed journals.
 * When initialism where used for Dutch parties in other cases, these were moved to their full party names (see this discussion on the use of PvdA)
 * The use of the intialism is very strange because the party had a full name which it used (unlike for instance the VARA which abandoned the full name)
 * C mon (talk) 10:30, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I am not disputing whether "Reformed Political League" is the correct translation or not. What I am disputing is that it is the most commonly-used name for the party, which is the the primary factor in naming articles per WP:NAME. The choice between PvdA and "Dutch Labour Party" is considerably less clear due to significant common usage of the translated name. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:27, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not claiming that the Reformed Political League is the correct translation, my claim is that it is the term that has been commonly used in the English speaking world when this party was discussed, which is limited to academic studies and code books of scientific studies
 * But I am willing to compromise: using the initialism goes in against WP:ENGLISH which proposes to use the Dutch term and not an initialism. As a compromise I can accept using the Dutch name "Gereformeerd Politiek Verbond". C mon (talk) 13:11, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * That's the worst choice out of the three, as it is evidently less frequently used than the initialism. There is no requirement to expand initialisms if the subject is better known by the abbreviated form. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 13:46, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It is not less used than the initialism. If you read any book on Dutch politics the initialism would only be used after the original name was explained as in this article before it was moved.
 * Do you have any proof of how the party is referred to in English except for google searches (which, I argue, underscore my point). C mon (talk) 16:03, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Google hits aren't the be-all and end-all, but unless there's counterevidence they're better than nothing. Of course books on the subject are going to use the expanded form first - that's rather how explaining a subject works. However, in general discussion the initialism seems plenty used, and initialisms in general are not usually treated as foreign-language for the purposes of WP:ENGLISH even if they're abbreviations of foreign terms. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 19:20, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

You asked me for proof: I have given you proof: a book authored by two specialists on Dutch politics. Both tenured professors. Second you claim that "not using only initialisms" happens when you explain certain things. But isn't wikipedia about explaining certain things as well? C mon (talk) 08:52, 17 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Two books do not indicate common usage. Authority has absolutely no bearing on article titles; only popularity. Wikipedia's article titles are not there to teach people things, they're there to help people get to the right articles quickly. That requires them to have the most commonly-used names. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 14:40, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd advise using the Dutch name then, because anyone who searches for this subject will use the Dutch name. C mon (talk) 21:50, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The GPV stands for Dutch "Gereformeerd Politiek Verbond". Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:49, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move redux
The article should be moved back to Reformed Political Alliance. There are three arguments why it should be moved - C mon (talk) 16:20, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) The use of the initialism is ambiguous. As User:Aervanath has shown here even if you google for the term GPV in conjunction with "Netherlands" and "Politics" you find a lot of hits which do not concern this political party, but other things which can be abbreviated to GPV. WP:NAME specifically states that the name of the article should not be ambiguous.
 * 2) Translations of the party name is preferred according to Naming conventions (political parties). When there are difficulties it states: "In some cases guidance can be taken from websites of a party or organization, or from promotional material of the party in question." In the case of the GPV that would be the site of its successor the ChristianUnion. On its English language website it uses the translation "Reformed Political Alliance".
 * 3) There has never been conclusive proof that the party is primarily known by its initialism in relevant sources (WP:NAME speaks of "international newsmedia"). The google searches of GPV even with additional terms show that there is no established usage.

Prior discussion (moved from User talk:Aervanath)

 * The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Why was Reformed Political League moved. There was no consensus on the talk page. Two editors disagreeing. Moreover why it moved to moved to GPV and not to Gereformeerd Politiek Verbond? Why move the page to the acronym instead of the full name? The acronym is ambiguous (GPV also stands for vehicle names and companies) and not established usage. I can see how you would not want to use an English translation (even if it is used in handbooks on Dutch politics) but why prefer the acronym over the fullname. There was no proof in the discussion that the acronym was used more often than the full name. Moreover if we use an acronym for this party why not for all the other Dutch parties? C mon (talk) 14:29, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi, C mon. According to Wikipedia naming conventions, we should use the name which is most commonly used in English.  See Naming conventions (common names), as well as Naming conventions (use English).  While you cited some academic works that refer to the name as translated into English, it seemed clear from reading the discussion that the majority of English sources refer to the party by its initials, and most sources didn't spell out the whole Dutch name.  If other Dutch parties are more well-known by their initials, then those should be moved as well.  However, we generally take it on a case-by-case basis, evaluating for each article what the most commonly used name in English actually is.--Aervanath (talk) 16:00, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * This proof was never given or even hinted at: all that was provided was a google count of how many times one of the translations was used. There was never a count of how many times GPV or the Gereformeerd Politiek Verbond was used in English language sources and if this usage was not ambiguous. C mon (talk) 19:40, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi C mon, due to your persistence, I've done my own digging:

All searches were restricted to English pages. Based on that, it seems pretty overwhelmingly in favor of GPV. This seems to be because English sources tend NOT to spell out the Dutch name, and there seem to be quite a few other English translations that are used by the sources. I look forward to your response.--Aervanath (talk) 06:00, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * search for "Gereformeerd Politiek Verbond" without GPV or "Reformed Political League" = 42 ghits
 * same search in Google Scholar = 4 hits
 * search for GPV Netherlands politics without "Gereformeerd Politiek Verbond" or "Reformed Political League" = 706 ghits
 * that search in Google Scholar = about 20,700 hits
 * search for "Reformed Political League" without GPV or "Gereformeerd Politiek Verbond" = 13 ghits
 * same in Google Scholar = 6 hits
 * Your searches are convincing, but for two things:
 * The results show that the term GPV is not used unambiguously for this political party. Typing GPV in Google (looking for English sites) gives 286.000 hits. If have check until a 1000 and only the first 9 hits appear to have to do with this political party, the other GPVs are companies, extensions (like .doc), "General Practice Victoria", "Grid Point Values", "General Purpose Vehicle" etc. All your searches . While looking for Gereformeerd Politiek Verbond on English only gives you 604 hits, but atleast they unambiguously point to the same party.
 * Moreover if you look at the pages you found and not just the numbers. A large number of the pages do not concern the political party, but other things in which the terms GPV appeared with Netherlands and Politics, or the "GPV" did not appear at all. By using so many search terms you have a number of hits which concern only a number of your search terms, and not the party. Moreover many of these hits if they involve the party first use a translation of the name or a description of the party and then the party name between . This is true for both the scholar hits and the normal google hits.
 * So the use of the term "GPV" is not unambiguous and your searches are polluted with hits which do not concern use the term to refer to a political party. Therefore I think that it is preferable to name the article unambiguously: "Gereformeerd Politiek Verbond". C mon (talk) 11:39, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi C mon, I think we are looking at different results, for some reason. My searches above for the term "GPV" were specifically worded to include pages which only included ALL of the words "GPV" AND "Netherlands" AND "Politics", thereby excluding a majority of the other cruft you get if you only search for GPV with no qualifiers (that is, my results had nothing about vehicles, etc.).  The link you posted in your last comment was just a blanket search for GPV, so of course it returned a lot of unrelated junk. Since my searches above have not convinced you, please give me a link to a search for GPV which would convincingly demonstrate how many sources actually refer to the term GPV as it relates to the political party, while excluding all unrelated results.--Aervanath (talk) 13:16, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought about this a while. I think that the best way to define established usage in the case of party name translations is the translation the party uses itself in the case of the GPV this would be the ChristianUnion, its successor party. On its English language website it calls the party "Reformed Political Alliance" see here (Ironically that is how I named the article in the first place). C mon (talk) 18:34, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, Wikipedia doesn't go by the official name, but by the most commonly used name in English, which in this case, according to the evidence I provided above, is GPV. Until you can show that GPV is not the most commonly used name, it would go against standard Wikipedia policy to move to any other name.--Aervanath (talk) 05:30, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I cannot find any evidence for your claim that on wikipedia we go by the most commonly used name. WP:NAME lists three criteria:
 * "Article names should be easily recognizable by English speakers
 * Titles should be brief without being ambiguous.
 * Titles should make linking to the article simple."
 * Now here does it say "the most common used name" or "google it"
 * As your own searches have shown the use of GPV is not ambiguous, because even if you limit your search to pages about Dutch politics, you find other pages.
 * Naming conventions (political parties) says "The general rule is that English translations of party name ought to be used in the name of an article. But in many cases a variety of translations are possible. In some cases guidance can be taken from websites of a party or organization, or from promotional material of the party in question." (emphasis mine) and that is exactly what I have done!
 * Please show me where in the naming conventions rules and guidelines "the most common used name" should be used over a translation selected on basis of the party's own usage; or revert the moving.
 * - C mon (talk) 07:19, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It is clear that you have not actually read WP:NAME, but only the "This page in a nutshell" section. The nutshell is not part of the policy, but only a useful summary. Please refer to the section "Use common names of persons and things", also referred to as WP:COMMONNAME. You are correct that a Google search is not part of the policy, but it is certainly a useful tool in showing what the most commonly used name is.--Aervanath (talk) 12:37, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * But the GPV is not a person or thing. It is an organisation. On WP:NAME it says: "Name your pages with the English translation and place the original native name on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly used in English media than the English form." GPV is not a translation of the name but an abbreviation. We are left with the choice of either the Dutch or the English. A further look at Naming conventions (political parties) states that "The general rule is that English translations of party name ought to be used in the name of an article. But in many cases a variety of translations are possible. In some cases guidance can be taken from websites of a party or organization, or from promotional material of the party in question."
 * The convention is quite clear: translate the name, when there is disagreement, look at how the party solves it itself.
 * Moreover the naming convention you refer to specifically says that this common name (not most popular google search) must be unambiguous. Which, as I have shown, GPV is not!

C mon (talk) 16:01, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Organisations also count as things.
 * 2) The section you quote from WP:NAME is in the section titled "Use English words", which goes on to say "Sometimes the usual English version will differ somewhat from the local form as in Franz Josef Strauss; and rarely, as with Mount Everest, it will be completely different." This is clearly a case where the "usual English version" differs somewhat.
 * 3) Naming conventions (political parties) carries several exceptions: the third exception is "Parties whose name is more commonly known by acronyms than their full name in international newsmedia." Since GPV is more commonly known by its acronym, this naming convention does not apply.
 * 4) There is no problem with ambiguity, since there are no other topics in Wikipedia that carry the name GPV. Even if there were, this article would then be named GPV (political party) to disambiguate them.
 * In conclusion: please read naming conventions in full before quoting them to me. Also, please demonstrate that GPV is not the most commonly used name in English for this party, which you have not yet done. Thank you.--Aervanath (talk) 01:02, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Further discussion

 * Note: Please continue discussion of the move request here.

Oppose reversal of move. I closed the discussion above based on the arguments presented there; since C mon has challenged it I have become even more convinced that it was the right decision. I have copied our discussion from my talk page below. I do not agree that the name is ambiguous on Wikipedia; there are no other articles named GPV. WP:NAME states that we should use the the most commonly used term for the article; there is no argument that GPV is not commonly used, and there has been no attempt to verify how many of the GPV hits are/are not misleading (I have done this pretty well, I think, but C mon disagrees, see below). C mon conveniently ignores (as I stated below) that Naming conventions (political parties) has several exceptions, one of which specifically applies to acronyms, and which clearly applies in this case.--Aervanath (talk) 08:05, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * There has never been any conclusive evidence that GPV is most commonly used. The party naming convention article clearly states that translations are preferred and that for guidance in translating the party website can be consulted.
 * The google searches are completely corrupted for any party you will find more google searches of the acronym than the name, especially if you include more characteristics as Aervanath did. As an example I have included the searches for German CDU:
 * 103.000 hits for "Christian Democratic Union"
 * 2.190.000 hits for CDU
 * 453.000 for CDU + Germany + Politics
 * 22.300 for "Christian Democratic Union + Germany + Politics
 * The exact same pattern for the CDU for the GPV. More hits for the acronym than for the translated name. What does this prove? That google searches will tend to find acronyms more, while these do not necessarily establish common usage. I think it is clear for anybody that the CDU-article should be called CDU, otherwise, this argument necessitates changing the name of every non-English political party article.
 * For common usage google searches are not advised at all, the party naming convention article refers to international news media and the party's own English communication.
 * The google searches are corrupt the successor party's website clearly advises a particular translation. I think it we should choose that.
 * C mon (talk) 08:19, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Just another example: UMP
 * UMP: 2.230.000
 * UMP Politics France: 65.900
 * "Union for a Popular Movement" Politics France: 34.900
 * "Union for a Popular Movement" 22.800
 * Again the translations obtain less hits than the acronyms. C mon (talk) 08:35, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose per original move rationale. I don't believe a sufficient case has been put forward that GPV is not the most common name for the party. Appeals to authority such as what the party wishes to be called are irrelevant, as are arguments concerning different articles altogether. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:19, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * C mon and Chris, I hope you don't mind that I have moved our comments down here below the "prior discussion" so that the chronology is preserved for incoming editors. To address C mon's most recent points:
 * If anything, the results you obtained above argue for moving the other political parties to their acronyms, instead of the opposite.
 * As I have stated before, I completely agree that Google searches are not the be-all-and-end-all of proof for determining common usage; but in the absence of proof against it, they can be fairly convincing. Could you please show me the google hits from my searches which are NOT in any way related to the political party?--Aervanath (talk) 10:29, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Support. 1) GPV is not a particularily common naming used in English. It is not comparable to say ETA, or other cases were the acronyms are far more known than the full name. Counting google stats is not the best way to determine this. 2) When I google for GPV, the first results that comes up are 'General Purpose Vehicles', 'General Practice Victoria', and Gällivare PhotoVoltaic. Amongst the top 50 results, only the Wikipedia page refers to the Dutch political party. 3) I cannot see that any well-established naming in English-language media exists at all for the party. The fact that GPV is used in some press articles is analogous to CDU, PSOE, PP, PCF, etc., but not comparable to say ETA, Hamas, Fatah, etc. In such cases, where there is no particularily strong motivation as to why evade the MOS standard of using English titles, a English translation of the full name is to be used. I think 'Reformed Political League' is an apt translation from Dutch. --Soman (talk) 15:50, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that's approaching it from the wrong end. The question is not "is the most common use of GPV to refer to the political party"; it is "is GPV the most commonly-used term when referring to the party". So far there's no firm evidence that this isn't the case. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 14:51, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The right end to start the argument is: in the case of GPV, are there any particularily strong arguments why not to adhere to the MOS guideline of using English article name? --Soman (talk) 21:51, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The relevant part of WP:ENGLISH is under WP:ENGLISH, which states that we shouldn't use an English translation if there's no evidence that it's widely used. The counterargument is WP:NAME, but I think it's been shown that "GPV" is used rather more often than "Gereformeerd Politiek Verbond" in English sources. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:11, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * That doesn't trumph this passage at WP:NAME, "For articles on organizations the general rule applies. That means: Name your pages with the English translation and place the original native name on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly used in English media than the English form." Examples like Hamas, Hizbollah and Sinn Fein are cases when foreign names are retained, as they are commonly established in English-language media. For the GPV, there is no such indication. What is the logic of singling out GPV as a test case for using non-english abbreviations instead of full names in English? In Google Hits, PSOE is used more than ten times as often as 'Spanish Socialist Workers' Party' in English pages. Should we move Spanish Socialist Workers' Party to PSOE, Christian Democratic Union (Germany) to CDU, etc. Any shift in established practice should be discussed elsewhere, to build a wider consensus. I suggest the apt place for discussion would the Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (political parties). --Soman (talk) 11:51, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Taking this to a wider forum does sound like a good idea, yes. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:31, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I absolutely agree with Soman. We have to use English full names when there is no evidence in the direction that the native full name is more used. Native names doesn't mean anything to Enlgish readers, most of whom cannot even pronounce the names correctly. Abbreviations are also not very enlightening except for the cases in which they are absolutely the most common name (like ETA for Euskadi Ta Askatasuna). But I also agree with both of you in that we should discuss this issue at an upper level in order to reach a healthy consensus.--Againme (talk) 23:10, 6 February 2009 (UTC)