Talk:Refugees of Somalia

Contested deletion
This article should not be speedy deleted as being recently created, having no relevant page history and duplicating an existing English Wikipedia topic, because Michtrich (talk) 20:24, 4 June 2016 (UTC) I created this article a few hours ago and have not yet written enough to show how the new page will be different from existing pages. On the page 'Somali diaspora' the word refugee does not appear at all (only in the references) - on the page 'Somalis in Kenya' the word refugee does not appear (but there are 400,000). The newly created article wants to focus on Somali refugees (as the name says - and not on people of Somali origin/ethnicity living in exile) - whereas Somali diaspora refers to other people such as asylum seekers or migrant workers who left Somalia and moved to other countries. If the main reason for deletion is the fact the the page only has headings at the moment then please go ahead and delete it but I do not agree that this new page would be a duplicate. Thanks.

Article deletion
Soupforone deleted the whole article on 'Refugees of Somalia' and made it to a redirect page to 'Somali diaspora' out of it. Michtrich (talk) 16:58, 18 June 2016 (UTC). I restored it to previous version Michtrich (talk) 17:12, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Duplicate
Page is a WP:POVFORK of Somali diaspora. Most Somalis in the diaspora are refugees. UN figures also includes many non-Somali migrants, particularly Bantus. Soupforone (talk) 17:23, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Reply
Your explanation of why you deleted it is, as it appears to me, neither valid nor thourough enough. I would like to suggest to you that you add your own thoughts (e.g. on UNHCR figures and Bantus) to the page or the acticle talk page rather than just deleting the whole article on Refugees of Somalia. Please add your thoughts as I would like to learn more on that topic. I strongly disagree with your opinion that the article on 'Somali diaspora' covers the content of the page you have deleted. It does not mention refugees at all, i.e. the word 'refugee' does not appear. How good, in your opinion, is the quality of an encyclopedia acticle when the main word - you said all those mentioned on the Somali diaspora page are refugees - is not mentioned. Equally the article on 'Somalis in Kenya' does not mention refugees, not a word about the largest refugee camp in the world, hosting Somali refugees. Both pages don't include the UNHCR which is essential in determining who is a refugee and in supporting them. Refugee is a legal status, and somehow, in a strange way, a 'lifestyle', not just the fact that they left their country of origin. Incorporating the refugees of somalia article into the somali diaspora page would be possible - but the diaspora page would need to be largely restructured. If you continue to believe that the Refugees of Somalia article is a duplicate you could incorporate its content into the Somali diaspora page rather than deleting it again. Somebody with a suspicious mind could get the impression you are trying to hide something - rather than trying to keep wikipedia free from duplicate pages. Many thanks for your understanding.Michtrich Michtrich (talk) 18:23, 18 June 2016 (UTC)


 * The page is indeed a fork of Somali diaspora, and was already tagged as such. That an anonymous ip conveniently removed the tag does not change this fact. What you also don't seem to understand is that "refugee" is a transient status. As such, a person could be a refugee one day, and a citizen the next. This is the situation with most Somalis abroad, who were once refugees but have since obtained citizenship. Also, as already pointed out, the UN registration figures include many non-Somalis, so they aren't adequate proxies for the census estimates of actual ethnic Somalis. Anyway, per the suggestion above I've merged the relevant parts of this fork with the Somali diaspora page. Soupforone (talk) 18:28, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Merger
Okay, I am looking forward to see the Refugees of Somalia incorporated into the Somali diaspora page. However, you need to explain me how a Somali refugee in Kenya will become a citizen the next day. You probably have heard of the legal status of Somalis in Kenya. Somebody can be living one day and be dead the next. Does it mean that it is not worth talking about it? Because being a refugee is transient we don't need to talk about all these years of suffering when we can also see the Somalis who made it and are successful now? It is not up to us to judge UNHCR figures, I am using official figures and if there is a problem with these figures this should be mentioned in the article! By the way, it wasn't me who deleted the duplicate tag - as you seem to imply. Michtrich (talk) 18:44, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Actually, I merged the relevant, non-transient and non-redundant portions of this WP:POVFORK to the central Somali diaspora page per the recommendation above to incorporate its content into the diaspora page. As pointed out, the UN figures include many non-Somalis - it is using "Somali" in a broad sense to mean anyone who entered adjacent territories from the direction of Somalia, including Bantus. This is key since Bantus form most of the displaced persons within Somalia (page 17 - ). Only the actual census figures can distinguish the ethnic Somalis from other migrants. Soupforone (talk) 19:02, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Reply
The information on Refugees of Somalia, that was deleted by Soupforone was neither redundant nor transient. It was not redundant because it does not exist in other wikipedia articles and it was not transient because it is information that relates to people who live as refugees e.g. in Kenia for more than 20 years. I have difficulties following Soupforone reasoning and get the impression that Soupforone may be biased by either ethnic or political affiliations that may prevent him from understanding the significance of information on somali refugees (whatever the title of the article). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michtrich (talk • contribs) 22:18, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
 * You indicated above that I "could incorporate its content into the Somali diaspora page", so don't act surprise when I did just that and merged the content into Somali diaspora. The fact remains, refugee is a transient status, and in any event most of the displaced peoples are Bantus. The link above indicates this explicitly. Also, the fork was already tagged for deletion, and certainly with good reason. Soupforone (talk) 22:30, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Incorrect UNHCR figures
The above link does not indicate anything: "While an accurate picture of the famine-affected population is not available, it is believed that the majority of IDPs from southern Somalia displaced as a result of the famine in mid-2011 were from the Rahanweyn and Bantu communities." footnote 30 on page 17, in pdf that Soupforone attached. Is this the sentence that you are using to say that UNHCR figures are incorrect? Really? Firstly, the sentence itself says that it is not giving an accurate picture. Secondly, it is only talking about southern Somalia. Thirdly, ethnicity does not matter when we are talking about nationality or territory of origin. Soupforone has not incorporated any of the information that was included in the Refugees of Somalia page - which was still work in progress. I am quite sure that Soupforone will delete every piece of information about refugees of somalia as soon as I add it to the Somali diaspora page.Michtrich (talk) 12:03, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify, I did not say that the UNHCR figures are incorrect. What I wrote is that those figures include many non-Somalis, and the HRW asserts as much too. Also see USAID, which indicates essentially the same thing (IDP camps are divided along clan lines, mostly Bantu and other minorities) . So yes, these migrants are of course citizens of Somalia. They are not, however, ethnic Somalis for the most part. This certainly does matter when Somali serves as both the name of an actual ethic group and a nationality, much as Albanian does. This is why the CIA asserts that Somalia's demography consists of Somalis and non-Somalis . Soupforone (talk) 13:00, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

A Third opinion has been requested about whether Refugees of Somalia should be a separate article from Somali diaspora. I will try to comment; maybe someone with admin glasses will need to take a look. It appears that there previously was an article on Refugees of Somalia that was then redirected to Somali diaspora. I haven't read the previous article on the refugees or the discussion that led to the redirect. On the one hand, the redirect was probably appropriate, because we don't need two articles when the information about the refugees, who, as noted, have a transient status, also is relevant to the diaspora. (Once the refugees receive immigrant visas somewhere, they remain part of the diaspora but are no longer refugees.) On the other hand, I haven't read the discussion that led to the redirect, and can't find it. My thinking is that, unless a compelling reason can be offered as to why a separate article is needed, it isn't. Any discussion should continue here. There hasn't been any discussion here. (This is the first substantive post to this talk page.) If there is any information about the refugees that isn't in the diaspora article, add it. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:03, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Would one of the two editors please explain whether there is something that I have missed? Why is a separate article needed? Robert McClenon (talk) 14:03, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Where was the discussion of the redirect? Robert McClenon (talk) 14:03, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

I requested a third opinion on this issue because Somali diaspora talks about "expatriate Somalis who reside in areas of the world that have traditionally not been inhabited by their ethnic group". As Soupforone repeatedly pointed out above his (and the diaspora page's) focus is on Somali ethnicity, whereas the focus of the deleted article was on Somalia as territory of origin. Somali diaspora includes ethnic Somalis who are Kenyan or Ethiopian nationals and born in these countries. Whereas Refugees of Somalia (would you like it more when it would be called refugees from Somalia?) covered people who are born in Somali territory and had to flee Somali territory. Its focus was on people who are refugees so either have refugee status or are fleeing and looking forward to get refugee status. None of the people on the diaspora page will still have or want refugee status. Also a situation that lasts more than 20 years is not transient. The article on another, supposedly transient issue, the european migrant crisis has about the same length as the page for Jesus Christ. I agree that two articles are not needed, but I do not agree that information on around 2 million people is not relevant because the refugee status is transient - which again is not true. Some refugees are and remain refugees since 1948, others since 1968, or 1975. In the case of Somali refugees in Kenya it is since 1992. Is that still transient?

Furthermore, Soupforone and others have deleted all information on Somali refugees from several pages I edited, e.g. Somalia, Somalis in Kenya. My issue with this editor is not that he/she thinks the page is a duplicate but that he seems not want information on Somali refugees on wikipedia at all. A seperate article is mainly needed because the content will - that is my suspicion - not be allowed to remain on any other suitable page. Michtrich (talk) 15:05, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Robert, that makes sense and is what I had thought. The fork was actually already tagged for deletion for the reasons you enumerated. The problem was that the refugee figures were based on nationality and mainly pertained to ethnic minorities, whereas the Somali diaspora page is on the transnational Somali ethnic group. The census estimates can delineate this ethnicity, but the migrant figures again appear to be based on country of origin. With that said, I've found one global estimate that pertains to ethnically Somali migrants. Per the above, I've appended it to the Somali diaspora page. That should do it. Soupforone (talk) 15:22, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Added section on Refugees of Somalia to Somali diaspora page
I saved the below paragraph at 16:08 on the 19th June on the Somali diaspora page, as was suggested by Soupforone. Let's see how long it takes until it will be deleted from there again because it is not the type of information some people want to be on wikipedia about Somalia or Somalis. Quoting Somali diaspora:

Refugees of Somalia
This section refers to refugees of Somalia or Somali refugees as people originating from the territory of Somalia, who are not necessarily people of Somali ethnicity, and who are seeking refuge outside the borders of their native territory. In 2016 there are around 977,000 Somali refugees registered with the UNHCR, mainly in neighbouring countries. Somalia has witnessed over two decades of conflict, violence, human rights violations and natural disasters, all of which have triggered repeated waves of displacement. Below is a list of host countries for Somali refugees.
 * Kenya: There are 414,000 Somali refugees in 2016 based in three main locations: 327,000 in Dadaab camp complex, 54,000 in Kakuma camp as well as 32,000 in Nairobi.
 * Ethiopia: There are 215,000 Somali refugees in 2016 who are mainly based in five refugee camps in the Dollo Ado region.
 * Yemen: In 2016 there are 235,000 Somali refugees in Yemen. They are based in Al-Kharaz and Al-Mazrak refugee camps but many are also living as urban refugees in cities such as Aden, 'Amran, Al Mukalla and Sana'a. Somali refugees in Yemen find themselves in a situation that is quite similar to Somalia: around 10% of Yemen's total population have lost their homes and are internally displaced, 80% of Yemen's population are in need of some form of humanitarian assistance and, ironically, 4,390 Yemenese actually fled to Somalia.
 * Uganda: In 2016 there are 37,000 Somali refugees in Uganda.

As explained above and noted in the first sentence on Somali diaspora, the page is on the Somali ethnic group. It does not pertain to Bantus and other minorities from Somalia, who according to USAID constitute most of the displaced persons (IDP camps are divided along clan lines, mostly Bantu and other minorities). Per the UNHCR, the official registered refugee population from Somalia is also: Kenya (413,170), Yemen (253,876), and Ethiopia (250,988). No sweat though I fixed this. Soupforone (talk) 02:18, 20 June 2016 (UTC)