Talk:Regional handwriting variation

g?
write numeral 9 like lowercase g
 * Could you describe this more specifically? There are a wide variety of lowercase "g"s to choose from. --Brion — Preceding undated comment added 23:38, 19 August 2002

This seems like a fairly nonuseful page to me... Australians rarely if ever cross their seven, and while there are different conventions for writing letters and numbers, I think it's fairly arbitrary to say 'X' never does this, or 'Y' always does the other. It depends on who taught you... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karen Johnson (talk • contribs) 02:27, 20 August 2002

Slashed zero
Programmers and mathematicians generally put a diagonal slash through a zero to differentiate it from a capital O, but I wouldn't call that an 'accent'.KJ


 * I'd say more programmers than mathematicians; in mathematics, a slashed zero is more often used to indicate the empty set (which is different from zero). Growing up, I had the slash-zero habit and got a lecture from my seventh-grade algebra teacher about it.  -- Coneslayer


 * Not all programmers either. The "empty set" symbol is also used by programmers to represent null. That rules out many people versed in programming theory (in addition to those versed in mathematics as stated above). I'd say "some" programmers do it, but "most" is an exaggeration. Also I don't think it's characteristic of programmers, probably just "technophiles" in general, i.e. those who copied the practice from early teletypes.
 * Side note: physicians apparently use the "empty set" symbol a lot as well (e.g. for "no symptoms" or "all normal"), so I don't see them using the slashed zero either. I'd say it's a rare and somewhat random occurrence and probably more common in some regions and social groups than others (American technophiles the most, I'd wager).
 * However I do see a lot of programmers adopt the American symbol for the number one when writing binary. This has probably more to do with laziness than anything else, though. They often switch back to European numerals when dealing with non-binary numbers. &mdash; Ashmodai (talk &middot; contribs) 03:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

"This practice is confusing to speakers of Danish and Norwegian languages containing the letter "Ø", and they prefer to place a dot in the center of zero for this purpose." I'm Norwegian and I can't remember seeing anyone write zero with a dot in. Some people might do it, but the common way to write the number is just zero. Slashed zero doesn't appear in handwriting here (at least I don't know about it), but my calculator use it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.177.64.73 (talk) 14:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Same here in Germany. I've never seen anyone putting a slash through a zero. It's just zero - everywhere here. --77.20.125.50 (talk) 13:51, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Slashed Zeros are taught to everyone in the military. In fact how to write and say numbers and letters is essential to clear communications. A miss spoken or miss written letter or number could have horrible consequences. The phonetic alphabet and proper written numbers enable fast clear communications. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sunwukongmonkeygod (talk • contribs) 06:00, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Geocentricism
Er, foreign to where? I thought wikipedia was a worldwide encyclopedia?! DanKeshet


 * Indeed. Perhaps we should call this "geographically distinctive handwriting forms" or some such. I have the same trouble with the term "foreign language" - e.g. French is foreign to an American but not to a Canadian.
 * I just read it again, and the more Amerocentric it looks. Why is there no mention of how Americans write? Why is it "Europeans cross their sevens" and not "Americans leave their sevens uncrossed"? -user:Montrealais


 * Agreed. -- Tarquin 10:15 Jan 6, 2003 (UTC)
 * I agree with user Montrealais. Wikipedia usually is American-centric. And they think that they're being neutral. Idiots! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.146.12.39 (talk) 16:29, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

The whole section should be moved to a section under Grammatology. The study of the history and development of writing systems. Alternatively, it belongs under either Penmanship, Calligraphy or CopyBook Writings. Maybe even as just a section under Graphology, which is where it is linked from. [jb] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.231.120.206 (talk) 10:06, 6 January 2003


 * I'd vote for the section under Graphology. Objections? Sebastian 19:15 Feb 9, 2003 (UTC)


 * Graphology is about the analysis of handwriting.
 * Calligraphy is about penmanship
 * Grammatology is about writing systems.
 * CopyBook Writings are the models that people learn to write from.


 * Of the four choices, CopyBook Writings might be the most appropriate, as this page Handwriting foreign accent is a practical example of the results of using different copybooks in different places. [jb] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pseudo daoist (talk • contribs) 22 February 2003

BTW, what is a "copybook"? -- Tarquin

Examples are Carolingian, Gothic, Humanistic Hand, Foundational Hand, Neuland Hand, Spencerian Script, Palmer Method, Dubay-Getty Hand. http://www.handwriting.org/images/copybook/ contains examples of various copybooks. Basically, copybook is the model used to teach penmanship.

The Grammatology is not that of Jaques Derrida. [jb]

Really Japanese don't cross 7? I do at least. -- Taku 02:23 Feb 22, 2003 (UTC)

From WP:VFD
WP:VfD/Handwriting_foreign_accent

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 * Most Europeans write numeral 9 like lowercase g (Arial-style)

I don't, and most people I know don't do that (I'm Spanish). I tend to think the French write the numeral 9 like g, although I don't know about other countries. BTW, this article is too Amerocentric: it talks about "foreign accent" and it doesn't say anything about how Americans write. Why not... a list of letters, numbers and symbols and an explanation on who writes each of them in which way? Like:
 * 1: In country X it is common to write it with a hat and underline, in country Y it's writte like an Arial l. Sabbut 08:05, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

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Maybe some picture/image will be useful.

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I know of difference for figure 2: European write a stright horizontal line at bottom, American make it curley (making it like a 'swan'). AnyFile 11:25, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That "European" 2 is actually very common in America, possibly even more common than the "swan" version. Tverbeek 12:56, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

We shouldn't say x IS done here, but indicate that it is the most common practice. I'm American and usually cross my 7's, for example. --Tothebarricades.tk 05:58, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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I have a problem with the "European Way", because Europe consists of independent nations which have different schools. So the handwriting actually depends on the country, not the continent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.160.232.140 (talk • contribs) 09:01, 2 November 2005

North America?
Every time I looked at the way I write, I saw North America. I'm from the UK, and it's most likely that the 'North American' style comes straight from here. Maybe it should be changed to make the point that North American is actually 'British-style' Big Moira 13:53, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed Big Moira, handwriting in Britain resembles North American styles more than Continental Western Europe styles in my experience. Also - echoing a point made further up the discussion - I find these descriptions of letters difficult to follow, surely if the text describes a graphical image such as a glyph, it would be much clearer to accompany the text with illustrations? Niki2006 18:57, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

What about this? "The capital letter Z — In North America and China this letter is usually written with three strokes." I'm from North America (NW United States) and I've never written nor seen anyone write a Z with three strokes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.209.61.152 (talk) 01:09, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Fifty years ago, one could talk about a "national" copybook, because the two dominant copybooks were somewhat similar. Currently there are three or four major players whose copybooks are very dissimilar. Fifty years ago, a copybook from one of the minor players would only be found where that company was located. Currently, the geographical location of the headquarters of the minor player has no bearing upon where their copybook is taught.jonathon 12:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

This article is strange in its assumption that 'North America' is the standard. North American usage derives from the UK (UK styles are largely ignored), but the base form of handwriting is European so the European style should be the starting point. The Yowser (talk) 12:55, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Two
What about the absence or presence of a loop in the arabic numeral 2? 134.250.72.191 00:19, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Slant
In the main article, I noticed "Slant is always a function of the taught copybook.[citation needed]".

Do we really need to have a citation for something that obvious? Or to put it differently, can somebody point to an instance of a copybook where slant is not one of the parameters of the copybook?jonathon 19:26, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what's obvious, because the statement is confusing. Does it mean that the only way someone would slant their writing is if they learned to do it from a copybook? Presumably they would be copying something like an italic hand. Or does it mean, as in your interpretation, that there exists no copybook without some mention of slant? The editor adding the citation request was polite enough not to simply delete the statement for its audacious lack of helpful information. Mephistopheles 11:41, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I think I see where the confusion is now. I rewrote that sub-section. I'll check my reference material later, to add the appropriate citations, and correct anything I misremember. jonathon 23:22, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Graphics
Would adding graphics of the various copybooks be useful? Either to demonstrate slant, or what the different glyphs look like.jonathon 23:48, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think that abundant graphics would be very useful on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.166.145.108 (talk) 09:05, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

This whole page is nonsense
Basically the whole page is nonsense. Even in the same country or region (or even in the same school) different people have different writing style. I vote that this page to be changed into "Handwriting Variations" and the regional differences parts all removed or lowered to a subnote to be taken with a (lot of) grain of salt.

And btw, this page's second nonsenseness is because there is no graphic to explain what's being talked about. Half of the texts can be removed and changed into graphic. I (being a layman, not a typographist) can't understand half of the different glyphs being talked about. And I'm sure many people would feel the same as me. The Kid (talk) 20:59, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * And no two people talk alike; does that make dialects "nonsense"? —Tamfang (talk) 19:17, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

--- The handwritten number (which we in the "west" call arabic numerals, which are actually probably more like Indian numerals is the clearest indicator of ethnicity in forensic science. It has nothing to do with religion or race but everything to do with the dominant style of writing in the language group or culture.  I used to have to read page after page of numbers written by Chinese when I lived in Taiwan.  They had the most fluid way to write numbers, not wasting any movement their "9's" looked like commas or in some cases were written backwards in one stroke.  Yes there are individual differences but by in large if you have to guess where someone is from a thorough knowledge of the regional differences is very helpful.  Unfortunately this typed medium is not well suited to conveying such information.  I think that the development of a system to convert handwritten symbols to a numeric code would be useful. I learned to use two different systems like this to look up Chinese Characters and they worked reasonably well, my favorite system is still being used by the police in Hong Kong to look up / record names. It assigns digits 0-9 for each of the first two and last two strokes of the character. This produces a 4 digit number that is not unique but enables someone who only knows how to write Chinese characters to find that printed character quickly without knowing the meaning or pronunciation. I once conversed with a man who worked in setting up the CSI office in Miami (the real one, not the TV show). He was once able to track down the author of a letter that was evidence in a case. He did this by tracking down the type of handwriting that was taught in the school systems. He could narrow it down to a single county based on this clue. The rest came from other leads. I think being able to draw the characters/symbols/numbers/letters in question is needed to make this a more usefull web page. I would love to find a suscinct .pdf file with samples of regional and ethnic / cultural differences in handwritten numbers. Sunwukongmonkeygod (talk) 06:30, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Unverified Claims / Original Research
Would whoever added the templates for "unverified claims", and "original research" state exactly what they consider to be the unverified claims, and original research? jonathon (talk) 21:37, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Outdated Information
In cleaning up the citation to this entry, I noticed that the only reference is to a 1911 publication (reprinted but not revised or republished as a new edition, per WorldCat) by Lewis Foreman Day. Since Day was known primarily as an art critic associated with the English Arts & Crafts movement, is his book anything more than assumptions and generalizations by an enthusiastic amateur (ala Sabine Baring-Gould)? Hence the "unverified status" on this entry, perhaps? Librmt (talk) 22:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Article quality is poor
There are no sources for anything. Many of the examples aren't just regional variations but are variations which could occur within a single country and historical variations. The article is very incomplete, mentioning a few variations in different countries, but doesn't describe all letters for all countries in a systematic way. Count Truthstein (talk) 21:55, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

zero and O
Confusion between the numeral 0 and the letter O can be resolved by using a script letter O (with a loop at the top), and leaving the numeral 0 without embellishments; this was a common practice before use of the slashed zero became the norm. This sentence about an alternative to slashing the zero was changed today to Confusion between the numeral 0 and the letter O can be resolved by using a script letter O (with a loop at the top), and adding a diagonal stroke (slash) the numeral 0 without embellishments. which is ungrammatical and incoherent, so I reverted. The same edit also added these two references: Should they be attached to the beginning of the paragraph, which discusses slashing? —Tamfang (talk) 23:32, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Fox, D., et al. “Examining Legibility of the Letter ‘e’ and Number ‘0’ Using Classification Tree Analysis.” Usability News 9.2 (2007)Print.
 * "Reference Data For Radio Engineers, Fifth Edition, Howard W. Sams & Co., Inc., 1970

Uppercase I?
Isn't there wide variation in the use of crossbars? 76.18.160.47 (talk) 23:51, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Getty-Dubay Spam?
It seems a huge number of script related articles have references to the hideous commercial Getty-Dubay method. I suspect this is a form of spam. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.233.193.37 (talk) 02:32, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

numerals vs digits
Let's at least talk about whether numerals is better than digits here. "4" is a numeral, but so are "1729" and "DCLXVI"; digit is more specific. —Tamfang (talk) 20:46, 8 July 2014 (UTC)


 * No takers, okay. How about why numerals precede letters? —Tamfang (talk) 06:45, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

More images
There is much to be improved in this article, but in particular I believe it needs more of the very helpful images. Many of the descriptions are incredibly confusing, and even if rewritten would still be unclear for many readers. MikeJamesShaw (talk) 12:32, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

American uppercase G
I found it surprising that the most distinctive variant of a letter I've ever seen, the American handwritten uppercase G, is absent of the article! I mean, most people I know (from South America and several Western European countries) write it either like a big lowercase g or as a block capital G; Americans, instead, use a letterform that resembles a handwritten Y or an inverted &. Amaral92 (talk) 19:37, 4 February 2017 (UTC)Amaral92

Numeral 8
I can think of at least four different ways to write an eight, but there's no coverage here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.140.1.28 (talk) 18:14, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

S with Swish?
Hey I remember occasionally seeing the cursive lowercase s written with a swish like ś and I'm wondering what is the origin of this practice --Thegunkid (talk) 08:35, 25 October 2020 (UTC)