Talk:Reich Chancellery meeting of 12 December 1941

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It (the meeting) was a shift from propaganda, intimidation and attacks to outright and planned extermination.

'''THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS.

THE AUTHOR, WHO MUST BE A DISCIPLE OF THE LOATHESOME DAVID IRVING, AFFECTS UNDERSTATEMENT CONCERNING THE Einstantzgruppen, WHICH WERE EMPLOYED IN "OUTRIGHT AND PLANNED EXTERMINATION" FROM THE START OF THE WAR IN 9/39, AND WHO RATCHETED UP THE MASS MURDER RATE AFTER THE START OF THE WAR AGAINST THE USSR 6/22/41ff.

THE Einsatz ARE PER SE PROOF OF GENOCIDAL INTENT AND BEHAVIOR, AND THE NAZI KILLING MACHINE WOULD NOT HAVE SPARED ONE PERSON IF THE USA HAD NOT ENTERED THE WAR.

THIS ARTICLE SHOULD BE LOCKED AND REVIEWED WITH A FINE TOOTH COMB BY RESPONSIBLE EDITORS, AND THE AUTHOR SHOULD BE BANNED FROM FURTHER CONTRIBUTION BECAUSE OF HIS REVISION AND FALSIFICATION OF HISTORY IN WHAT COULD ONLY BE TERMED BAD FAITH. ''' --NCDane (talk) 00:55, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I deleted the offending historical falsification from the article.--NCDane (talk) 01:14, 12 December 2009 (UTC)


 * First, a couple of suggestions:
 * 1. Please don't accuse people of being holocaust revisionists or falsificationists just because they disagree with you. At least try to present some evidence.
 * 2. If you really have to make capslock rants, try to put them on talk pages rather than in articles.
 * Anyway, onto the history. I believe the earlier version is consistent with the available evidence. For example:
 * "The question remains as to whether, without an ideological motivation, the Holocaust would have happened. I think not. We now have convincing proof, in that only recently did we discover the famous Hitler statement about destroying the Jews. On December 12, 1941, Hitler spoke in front of about 50 Party leaders in the Reich's Chancellery in Berlin. He said that now, with Germany's declaration of war against the United States, the time had come for his January 1939 prophecy about the annihilation of the Jews to be fulfilled."
 * - taken from http://www1.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%203875.pdf - perhaps Yad Vashem are DISCIPLES OF THE LOATHESOME DAVID IRVING?
 * There is some debate over exact timing - not everybody agrees with Gerlach - but there is clear evidence that the Nazi regime's attitude to jews changed over time, particularly in late 1941.
 * However, it's important to avoid generalisations and oversimplifications. "THE NAZI KILLING MACHINE" that you mention was, in late 1941, still tinkering with legal measures such as travel restrictions, disability benefits, and telephone usage by jews. Why bother with those trivia if, as you suggest, the machine had already started extermination two years earlier? Why were jews allowed to emigrate earlier (a policy that changed in late 1941) if they were already marked for death?
 * Bobrayner (talk) 05:38, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Bobrayner:

re your point 1:

I cited "einsatzgruppen". I guess so many people have to be led by the hand that I should have suggested reading the Wiki entry on that subject, which attests to the fact that the Nazi killing machine began its work in 9/39, and expanded its efforts in 6/41.

I also suggest googling the names of such concetration camps as Dachau, which was opened in 1933, which housed thousands of Jews prewar (approx. 300 arrived on 6/12/37 alone according to this link: http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Dachauscrapbook/prisoners.html), and from which very few escaped with their lives.

re your point 2:

Outrages of surpassing magnitude deserve editorial denunciation in the article itself, until proper editing and archiving is completed. I will, however, content myself with simple deletion for the rest of the discussion of this article.

re the rest of your comments:

"Fulfilled" does not mean the same thing as "begun" or "started". The Holocaust was begun 9/39. If the article under discussion is accurate, Hitler only decided to increase the tempo in 12/41.

There is no evidence at all that the Nazi "attitude to jews changed over time, particularly in late 1941." Evidence is not lacking that mass murder was intended before the start of the war (cf Dachau' etc.), and once the war began it becomes plentiful, and the Jews were not of course the only victims- gentile Poles, especially the intelligensia, were among the first classes of people to suffer mass murder. Anyone to whom this is not obvious is a disciple of the loathesome David Irving, and it does not matter if the disciple's last name is Rayner or Greenberg.

This passage by you is nonsense: "THE NAZI KILLING MACHINE" that you mention was, in late 1941, still tinkering with legal measures such as travel restrictions, disability benefits, and telephone usage by jews..." See Wiki on the Warsaw Ghetto. You will also again find the Wiki article on the "einsatzgruppen" and "Dachau" inconvenient for you falsifications. --NCDane (talk) 17:31, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

re alowing the Jews to emigrate:

There was never any possibility that more than a tinky fragment of the Jewish population of Germany and Europe would be able to emigrate.

Emigration might have been allowed as a token or a less costly alternative to imprisonment and surruptitious murder which became less difficult after the war began, since news of atrocity was less easily spread and verified due to increased wartime restrictions on the flow of information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NCDane (talk • contribs) 17:43, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
 * True that the attitude of the Nazi's didn't "change over time" about Jews - all that changed was the method of exterminating them/what could they get away with.50.111.19.34 (talk) 06:17, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Date of shift to outright genocide in East
According to Peter Longerich (and others), the Germans began murdering not just male Jews above a certain age, but all Jews they found, by August 1941, not as late as September. Not a huge difference, but it seemed worth correcting. --Tbanderson (talk) 21:52, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
 * They had killed men, women and children before that date in Poland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.19.34 (talk) 06:19, 12 December 2021 (UTC)