Talk:Reiki/Archive 3

Redirect
Propose to merge Reiki Tummo into Reiki since it is a minor article and does not add new information. Actually, as it stands now Reiki Tummo has a commercial flavor, and may even be removed completely, as far as I am concerned. JohJak2 12:17, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
 * A fine idea. Done. --Fire Star 16:43, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Placebo
I get kind of weirded out when I see that word used in practices like these, so I just wanted to ask some metaphysical opinions out there. The entire point of most metaphysical properties isn't to actually be divine and do the impossible, but to get across to the subconscious mind exactly what your intentions are. Is that truly qualified as a placebo? If the mind has the power to achieve the results on its own and someone finds a way to clarify to their consciousness "This is what I want done" and it happens, does the procedure involved to do so truly qualified as "placebo" or simply a "ritual"? A lot of metaphysics gets a bad rep from skeptics who read and don't understand the point through a closed-mind...any thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.0.230.175 (talk • contribs)

I'd like to add to this, and ask how can the 'placebo' effect work on animals with whom the practioner has no means of verbal communication with? Time and time again I have had great success when working with animals. As far as the animal is aware all I am doing is putting my hands gently on them and that's it, they do not know exactly why I am doing it or the outcome I would be expecting, yet it still works. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.110.129 (talk • contribs)


 * Placebo doesn't work, by definition. That's the point. Because the effects of Reiki are indistinguishable from placebo, scientists conclude that Reiki doesnt work either. --Ronz 15:29, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * If you can tell someones consciousness "this is what I want done", then you could noticeably measure  a person who has received this information and people who haven't. If there is little or no difference between the two people that is considered a "placebo effect". In regards to your animals... Putting your hands gently on their bodies could be successful just from touching them gently. It could have a calming and relaxing effect on them. To test the difference, do reiki on one animal, and just gently touching another. Is there a difference between these animals after time? No matter what result you get, do the experiment again to verify the data (the more the better). If there is no significant difference, welcome to the "placebo effect".--aptdwn26 16:01, 4 April 2007

Interesting...how then does a horse who has had a problem leg for three years miraculously get completely better after 5 reiki sessions, carried out over two weeeks? Are you saying that this is caused by relaxation alone? I could go on to mention many, many more cases of humans and animals that have miraculously recovered after reiki sessions. So are you saying that this is also down to relaxation or coincidence perhaps? In which case how can scientist conclude that reiki doesn't work when there is so much proof around them. People will always be unhappy with things they can't see or understand. We as a human race are still very young, we have come a long way but we still know so little about the world and ourselves. We are still evolving and eventually scientist will find the proof they so much desire, reiki will be used alot more widely in the future years and the human race will benefit greatly. Scientists need to get a move on because people are sick and dying when they needn't be. 88.109.230.10 07:13, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * "Scientists need to get a move on because people are sick and dying when they needn't be"? Are you serious? Science and medicine have done more in the last 50 years than "traditional" medicine has done in the last 10,000.morningwindow


 * I don't know what was wrong with your horse's leg in the first place. The only point I'm trying to make is that all threats to internal validity need to be addressed in order to give a more likely predictable outcome. aptdwn26 12:10, 9 April 2007

This discussion is inappropriate for a talk page, per WP:TALK. Anyone against my creating an archive and archiving this section, along with all others from last year or older? --Ronz 04:04, 8 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Archive away Ronz. I apologize for contributing to the inappropriate discussion. aptdwn26 12:18, 9 April 2007
 * I apologise as well. I should have brought up WP:TALK and proposed archiving from the start. --Ronz 19:22, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

non-traditional reiki
i think it would be best if non-traditional flavors were discussed here before they are added to the main article. Of the three currently listed (celtic, tummo, and something something mantra...), reiki tummo is the only one i've ever heard of. We need to keep in mind that reiki has become extremely commercialized, and to market a new product it needs a new name. There are now hundreds of "new" reiki practices out there, a minority of which I feel are popular enough for mention in this article. If you are not sure if yours is a well known reiki, try scanning for regular mention of it in a general reiki forum. Shaggorama 06:54, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, Celtic Reiki gets about 10,000 Google hits, which makes it fairly notable for this sort of thing. The other one got 44, which practically vanishes when WP and its mirrors are factored in, so I removed it. --Fire Star 19:30, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Syncretization
From the Encarta World English Dictionary, Bloomsbury, 1999:

syncretize To combine, or try to combine, elements from different systems of philosophical or religious belief or practice. syncretization.

--Fire Star 14:11, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


 * It should be written as Syn-cretin-ization. 68.152.95.130 20:34, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Scientific research
I was reading in askmen.com about Reiki and they mentioned quite alot of scientific research is currently being done on Reiki. To balance the wiki article (which in some parts on the controvisories seems very negative) should it not have some details about what real scientific reseach has so far been done, weather positive or negative instead of the sweeping statements made in the wiki article. Please see the secions on "what about reseach?" http://www.askmen.com/fashion/body_and_mind_60/97b_better_living.html If not then lets consider removing the sweeping stament sections. Tummo1 15:51, 14 January 2006 (UTC) Tummo1
 * As the link you provided states: "the data on it is preliminary". When multiple double blind and peer reviewed medical studies have clearly shown effects beyond that expected by the placebo effect (as the FICSIT trials have done for T'ai Chi, for example), then they will be notable enough to include in the article. Wikipedia is not a free advertising service. The language in the article isn't intended to be negative, but objective. --Fire Star 18:38, 14 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia does not require doubleblind peer reviewed data. Notability is not defined this way. If someone prominent in a field related to Qi is noting the information, it is notable enough for inclusion. Peace. &#2384; Metta Bubble puff  00:14, 7 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I think a doubleblind peer reviewed data is a good standard to use where it makes sense, and Reiki is a good enough candidate to require this standard because it is technically feasible to produce this kind of data. -- Newhoggy | Talk 11:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * A compromise would be to mention these other studies, but note that there are no double blind peer reviewed studies which are the golden standard in medicinal research. -- Newhoggy | Talk 04:52, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I have proposed a Reiki experiment @ my website http://www.kundaliniyogablog.com/-2006-10-12-reiki-experiments-testing-the-validity-of-energy-healing/, the text from the pose is as follows: Reiki Experiments: Testing the Validity of Energy Healing

I came across an interesting post on the topic of Reiki, so I figured I would comment on it. I do believe that it is important to establish experiments to test the validity of healing practices. And while I do believe there is something to being open to the healing sessions, there is still needs to be some tangible concrete evidence to give validity to the practice. Scientific analysis is not beyond the scope of spirituality, in fact the science of spirit is a necessity for its existence.

First of all I agree with the assertion made.

“It seems reasonable that if this “spiritually-guided life force energy” exists, there should be some way to detect it.”

However I believe your test scenarios for Reiki are not completely in line.

The detection of a living creature within a closed box, would be cool, but this is more along the lines of sensing the aura of the animal in the box and less so in the lines of channeling spiritual life force energy into the boxes/animals.

The second proposed experiment is also not appropriate. While Reiki practicioners can sense the spiritual energy as it is flowing through them during a session, it does not serve as a spiritual life energy temperture reader.

The most tangible, measurable component of a reiki healing session is the heat generated via the transference of energy.

Proposed Experiment

This would need some further definition but this is a good start.

Administrators- 2 Reiki Practicioner 2 Non Reiki Practicioner

Sampling of 30 or 60 people selected for “psychological experiment”

Equipment- Body Heat Measurement Tools - perhaps brain wave scanner as well for extra data- I would suspect that specific brain wave patterns would be encouraged during a reiki session.

Approach


 * Pre-experiment- provide psychological background information along with a glass of color liquid to have the people thing the study is tracking the results of something else
 * Hook up heat monitoring equipment on several location on their bodies, either side of the shoulders, stomach, thighs and shin
 * Have them lay down on a test bed with a blanket covering them
 * Place them into the brain imaging equipment
 * Half the group gets two reiki practicioners to place their hands in a series of predetermined locations down the sides of the subjects body, in conjunction with the heat readers
 * The final location would be around either side of the head
 * The other half have non-reiki practicioners do the same thing

Hypothesis

The group that recieves the Reiki treatment will on average have their body heat raised significantly higher in the locations that they practicioners hands are placed.

I also suspect a common brain wave patter would express itself with those who were treated by the reiki practicioners.

I think I would need some help to pull off the brain imaging component of this experiment. Perhaps Richard Davidson, cited here for his brain wave research into the benefits of meditation, can help support this experiment?? I’ll split the prize with his Waisman Laboratory for Brain Wave Imaging and Behavior.

Let me know if ya think this approach holds weight?

Hersh

Reiki controversies
Why is there a page Reiki controversies, but no link from here to there? --Hob Gadling 15:15, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, it seems to be a fork of a previous version of the main reiki article which has been created to maintain some earlier statements. Its content is very similar to content that already exists at this article, and it should probably be merged. --Fire Star 15:55, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I've redirected it to the main article. There was no material in the old article that hasn't been covered here, indeed, it was just a reposting of an older version of the main article from its page history. It seemed to be an attempt at reposting material that consensus has deemed too negative. --Fire Star 17:33, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Reiki Endorse by Doctors and Practiced in Hospitals
Reiki is practiced in hundreds of hospitals round the US including many that are respected and well known. These include M.D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, Texas, The California Pacific Medical Center, The Warren Grant Magnuson Clinical Center at the National Institutes of Health, Wentworth-Douglass Hospital in Dover, New Hampshire, Concord Hospital, Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center, Bennington Southwestern Medical Center, Frisbee Memorial Hospital, Catholic Medical Center, Elliot Hospital all in New Hampshire, and Anna Jacques Hospital and Union Hospital in Massachusetts. AT the Portsmouth Regional Hospital in New Hampshire, over 8000 Reiki treatments have been given. This information comes from articles authored by Pamala Miles and appearing in the Reiki News Magazine. There is also a Consortium of 27 Academic Health Centers that promote integrative medicine including Reiki see -   See -

In addition, double blind scientific studies have demonstrated that the value provided by Reiki comes from more than just the placebo effect. A recent study was published in a peer reviewed scientific journal: Autonomic Nervous-System-Changes During Reiki Treatment: A Preliminary Study, THE JOURNAL OF ALTERNATIVE AND COMPLEMENTARY MEDICINE Volume 10, Number 6. And in fact in the field of spiritual healing, there have been over 100 studies conducted, many of which demonstrate positive results. See Spiritual Healing, Scientific Validation of a Healing Revolution, by Daniel J. Benor, M.D. The previous 2 paragraphs were added by William Lee Rand William 20:59, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

The problem with the first paragraph is that the only reference provided in support is a self published article -- this is the seconde reference. The first reference says nothing about Reiki. However, the preliminary study should certainly be mentioned in the main page, if it is not already mentioned. --Lumiere 01:19, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * While I do publish the Reiki News Magazine the articles describing Reiki in hopsitals were researched and written by Pamela Miles. The Consortium website does list Reiki as one of the modalities in many of the member hospitals, but you do  have to follow the links to the program descriptions. Here is an example: -- William Lee Rand 14:00, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Ethical Principles Concerning the possiblity of those with serious illnesses choosing to be treated solely by Reiki rather than seeking medical attention, and thus eliminating the benefit that could come from medical treatment, this rarely occurs as the majority of Reiki practitioners have the view that Reiki is complementary to Western medicine and usually advise anyone with a medical condition to also be under the care of a licenced health care provider. This is evidenced by the code of ethics of most major Reiki organizations which includes this stipulation. ,

Religious Concerns While members of some religious groups are opposed to Reiki, many others are either neutral or actually practice Reiki. In fact there is a website created by Christians who practice Reiki. 

Popularity of Reiki According to a study published in Alternative Therapies, Jan/Feb 2005 issue, in 2002 there were over one million U.S. adults who recieved one or more Reiki treatments. 

_______________________________________________________

Possibly, but I the word "claim" does not seem to be neutral, which is the point of wikipedida information. If I were to use that word in the sentence, Quantum mechanics "claims" to explain Newtonian mechanics and classical electromagnetism at the atomic and subatomic levels, it wouldn't sound neutral it would sound like I personally didn't believe it. That is what the language of this article sounds like to me. brymerrick@yahoo.com Feb 3 2006


 * Well, saying that reiki definitely does miraculously cure people definitely isn't neutral. We (Wikipedia) can't say it works, we can't say it doesn't work. Wikipedia can't say that it believes anything in the articles, we are reporters, not salesmen. We report the claims of reiki adherents and the rebuttals of reiki critics, that's all. Please read the Neutral point of view policy, and the archived discussion of this article. --Fire Star 15:09, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I would reccomend everyone (the biast people too) to look at this book which perports and claims by the words alleged to have been written by a sceptical Medical Doctor http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1886785112/002-1064284-4565619?v=glance&n=283155 that there is Scientific Evidence for Reiki/Spiritual healing and that it works. You can even browse the books pages.

Introduction seems biased
I oppose the use of word "claim" in the introductions. Why isn't the word "states" used instead? Most of the introduction seems to have an air of skepdicism about it. Is it quite possible it is too one sided?

"Reiki is claimed by its adherents to be a technique for healing physical or mental disease. Reiki was formulated during the early 20th century by Mikao Usui (usui mikao 臼井甕男) in Japan. Practitioners use a technique similar to the laying on of hands in which they claim that they act as channels for Reiki energy — which they say flows through their palms to specific parts of the body in order to facilitate healing. Scientific studies have not confirmed the existence of this specific Reiki energy. Most of the explanations of the technical aspects of Reiki rely upon the existence of "subtle energies" and "auras." Reiki practitioners and holistic healers believe these descriptions of such energies and also believe in the validity of the practice."
 * Well, what reiki theory states does indeed seem to be claims that it is able to heal with the ability to generate an energy that is debatable at best with a method that hasn't been proven to exist beyond simple physical metabolism. That justifies the word "claim" to my mind. Many other of our New Age and Alternative medicine articles have similar language. --Fire Star 18:03, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree the introduction is a bit biased, having just looked at the Shamanism pages(where it is treated with more respect) I am concerned that a Bad press for Reiki, does more harm than good! As Christian Reiki Master, what happened to tolerance and a balanced presentation? User:Toom 15th January MMVI

Whole Article Needs Scrapping
This is basically a biased article from a Skeptical point of view.

I dont even know whether a Skeptical view deserves any merit.

I am Skeptical about whether crank telephones existed. I dont have to have a reasonable base behind it, just believe that they didnt exist, and its a figment of peoples imagination. So therefore I must rewrite the whole article - on Crank Telephones - & say that crank telephones are rubbish & didnt exists.

This is a poor but 'bugger-it, that'll do as an example' useless ...example... of a Skeptical-ist view on life. Its ideology. When its ideologically driven, dont expect to hear many viewpoints.

Thats is NOT what I went to 'Reiki' to hear. I dont care about your ideology against Reiki, I want to read the facts about Reiki.

How come Anarchists arent interviewed for world political event stories? It would be "fair" & "balanced" to have them contribute to everything on the news...but you dont see Noam Chomsky being given airtime on Fox News or the Murdoch Press.

Please please please, can we scrap this & move onto a more pure descriptive article about Reiki without this directed interference. I would be happy to write a completely new article.

I'll put skeptical links down the bottom with a note "many people have challenged the validity of Reiki. Here are some of their websites". That'll do...

Happyez 14:37, 8 March 2006 (UTC)Eric Vigo, RMT, Reiki 3


 * Well, I'm sorry that you feel that way, but you have to read our Neutral point of view and What Wikipedia is not policies to understand what is going on. Wikipedia isn't free advertising for any group. You believe in reiki, not everyone does. Some consider it harmless New Age fluffy bunny wishful thinking, others consider it demon channeling sorcery that preys on its victims. We can't say those things any more than we can say "Reiki is wonderful, it cures cancer, eliminates war and world hunger and reverses baldness with every treatment." Many sceptics would be as insulted by a pro-reiki "description" such as you propose as true believers would be by a right wing fundamentalist coming here and saying reiki was a tool of Satan. So, we concentrate on simple reporting. As it happens, there is a lot of scepticism out there on the subject. Also, if you look through the article's edit history, you'll see that we have removed much blatantly anti-reiki POV that has been inserted into this article over the years. --Fire Star 20:11, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Fire Star. Actually, I was thinking of editing the article myself a few days ago for POV issues but couldn't really decide where to start. I think the article lays on a few too many unecessary POV qualifiers and ends up sounding resoundingly like it's panning Reiki. The opening sentence particularly is pretty much overkill:


 * Reiki is claimed by its adherents to be a technique for healing physical, emotional, spiritual or mental disease.


 * Saying 'claimed by its adherents' is a huge qualifier that detracts from what the sentence is actually trying to say. I'd like to workshop a better version of this and I don't really have an alternative that I'm satisfied is NPOV. How about something like:


 * Reiki is a spiritual healing technique for treating physical, emotional, spiritual or mental disease.


 * I think that covers the unscientific aspects of Reiki without overloading the qualifiers. Any thoughts? Anyone? &#2384; Metta Bubble puff  10:54, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Or perhaps:


 * Reiki is a spiritual healing technique proposed for the treatment of physical, emotional, spiritual or mental disease.

&#2384; Metta Bubble puff  10:59, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Greetings! I agree we can reduce the (over)qualifiers, but we have to keep at least a few for attributive purposes. My theory is, the drier, the better. I don't want to pan or promote reiki (or Tai Chi, or yoga, etc.), only to report it. How about: Reiki is said by its practitioners to be a spiritual healing technique for the treatment of physical, emotional, spiritual or mental disease. ? Regards, --Fire Star 21:48, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Greetings! said by adherents immediately posits that the writer thinks this is a false statement. What's wrong with the lesser POV qualifiers I suggested? Namely spiritual healing and proposed? &#2384; Metta Bubble puff  22:38, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Or, said differently: It's immediately obvious when you say a technique is proposed for something that we are talking about adherents. To mention said by adherents/practitioners as the second phrase in the article directly sets up opposition. We don't do this kind of POV for the vast majority of other articles about healing techniques. Why do we set Reiki up for a fall? &#2384; Metta Bubble puff  22:43, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Hello again. "Said by adherents immediately posits that the writer thinks this is a false statement." That is reading an intent into it. Taken at face value, it more simply posits that not everyone agrees that the practise in question is what it says it is, while truthfully reporting what reiki groups publish about themselves. Those assertions are controversial and unproven to many people, and that should be reported, as well as any answers reiki practitioners have made to those criticisms in public. Dry language set forth in a measured, straightforward idiom. Wikipedia isn't a place to publish definitively that reiki is what Usui and subsequent devotees have asserted that it is. I don't believe we should say that reiki is spiritual healing because it has yet to be established that it actually has the ability to heal anyone beyond the statistical artefact predicted by the placebo effect, any more than our article at Mars should say there is definitely life on that planet, or that the Earth is flat or that Jesus rose from the dead after 3 days. Some people believe those things, others don't. We can say that reiki groups say they practise spiritual healing, though. As for other practises that get the same or similar treatment, please see Astrology, Homeopathy, Scientology, Falungong etc. Regards, --Fire Star 16:15, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi again. I think I pretty much agree with everything you said. I also read the links you provided and found that none of them use any phrases such as "Homeopathic adherents claim" in the first sentence. They start by clearing defining the field before talking about who claims what. I feel the wording I provided takes into account all viewpoints. I am not a supporter or Reiki. Please read the wording carefully and if you disagree with it please state why clearly. I am a supporter of a neutral viewpoint. If anyone would like to add Reiki is controversial (ala homeopathy) I am open to that, but I think that's a separate issue being NPOV in the opening. &#2384; Metta Bubble  puff  00:54, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Hello. I will (when I have a bit more time) go over the article and try to take out as many unncessary and redundant qualifiers as I can. The article as we have it is pretty unwieldy, IMO, the result of many editors over a long period. It isn't consistent even with itself, as my finding, in three different places, three sentences that said the same thing yesterday, or your discovery of the word "rediscovered" today shows. Cheers! --Fire Star 21:32, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi. I'm into that. I like how the wikiprocess works. The word "invented" was changed to "rediscovered" and now it's more neutrally "developed". I wish you every success bringing balance through the wikiprocess. Best of luck. &#2384; Metta Bubble puff  23:03, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I would like to remind all of you of a little passage in the NPOV article. "The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these are fairly presented, but not asserted. All significant points of view are presented, not just the most popular one" This page has a consistent anti scientific bias. all criticisms of reiki are blanked by firestar. that is a blatant violation of NPOV. -User:Speaker Of Absolute Truth


 * Actually, I am very critical of reiki, but the criticisms have to be fair. "Flavordynamic"? The use of such idiosyncratic words led me to believe I was dealing with vandalism. --Fire Star 14:04, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

its all right here Fundamental interaction, and here Quantum flavordynamics. HOW is this criticism not fair? all I said was that in order for reiki energy to exist, A: the laws of physics are wrong, or B: Reiki is not noticably subject to the laws of physics, it is subject to different laws, the laws of psychology, in which case, science deems it "placebo effect." You HAVE to aknowledge conflicting POVs if you claim to follow the principles of this wiki. I was simply stating facts. I would even argue that what i was saying was even more factual than the pro reiki stuff, but thats niether here nor there. I say put it back and let people modify it as they want, but dont take out every single criticism... thats not really NPOV. "All significant points of view are presented, not just the most popular one" -User:Speaker Of Absolute Truth


 * OK, but the word wasn't linked to its Wikipedia article, it didn't show up in a Google search and it wasn't in any of my dictionaries. I'm not averse to having your criticisms in the article, so I will put them back in in the "controversies" section. --Fire Star 22:34, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

thank you for being reasonable. I am not trying to disprove reikis effects... im just saying i think the lack of scientific evidence is because it is not a scientific phenomenon... I think most scientists (and maybe most reiki practitioners) would say the energy is more of a psychological thing... now i just have to convince the admins that i am not a vandal after they marked me as one. The Speaker Of Absolute Truth 00:07, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Not to worry, I'm an admin and I don't think you are a vandal. I didn't mark you or otherwise complain, and you convinced me that the terms you used were valid. If that isn't enough, I'll say: Keep up the good work! Cheers, --Fire Star 00:15, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I have no real problems with the article other than the opening sentence and I am happy for you two to work out the rest of the article. &#2384; Metta Bubble puff  00:54, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Hiya Happyez. I support your suggestion to write a new article, in part. Is it possible you could start a sandbox page and write your entirely new article there so that we have another source of wording to draw on? Sometimes it's hard to imagine what the problems with an article are without someone providing the alternative. It's quite possible that editors will use only a little bit from your article but it could be a great help in finding a middle ground. Of course, it's completely possible that other editors will use a lot of your article. Up to you. Peace. &#2384; <strong style="color:orange;">Metta Bubble <sup style="color:red;">puff  23:10, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I am not trying to disprove reikis effects... im just saying i think the lack of scientific evidence is because it is not a scientific phenomenon... I think most scientists (and maybe most reiki practitioners) would say the energy is more of a psychological thing.... I think this shows how little some people know about science and about reiki. A lack of scientific evidence does not have to suggest that the laws of science are wrong or that it is not a scientific phenomenon. Science is an ongoing learning process as is Reiki. Just because there have been no "laws" developed as yet for Reiki does not mean that they will not be determined in the future. As a scientifically minded Reiki Master I believe there is a great deal of correlation between science and Reiki. I must admit I did find the article as a whole quite negative and biased against Reiki, but this is not a worry to me, I know that Reiki exists (I used to think it was a load of rubbish myself until I experienced it first hand). ;) GC

What Reiki is
answer: the energy and activities of god and religious people effect: healing, living, feeling good, changing parts of your body etc.

It really is not good if you call the power of God Reiki .. there is too much confusion!!!

The previous opening sentence: is akin to saying You see? Reiki is a spiritual healing technique, just as sure as Christianity is a religion. Whether Reiki works or not is a different matter. Just as whether there was a Christ or not is a different matter. I'm happy to keep workshopping this opening sentence in an NPOV way. I'd still like to hear specific reasoning if there is anything at all wrong with saying: For me, the sentence makes the difference between what Reiki is and what Reiki proposes absolutely clear. You can't get more NPOV than that. Please discuss your own view on this below. Peace. &#2384; <strong style="color:orange;">Metta Bubble <sup style="color:red;">puff  04:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Reiki is asserted to be a spiritual healing technique...
 * Christianity is asserted to be a religion...
 * Reiki is a spiritual healing technique proposed for the treatment of physical, emotional, spiritual or mental disease.

Okay, I consider the opening sentence issue closed. &#2384; <strong style="color:orange;">Metta Bubble <sup style="color:red;">puff  23:59, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Warmer Hands
Regarding this sentence:


 *  Some studies have, however, found that while a paractitioner is "channeling" Reiki energy, his or her palms become significantly warmer.

What's going on? Why delete? Has someone got a source for the some studies statement? Peace. &#2384; <strong style="color:orange;">Metta Bubble <sup style="color:red;">puff  01:00, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The Wikipedia editors here have a long- biased and expecially self centered interest in this topic. Take some time and read through the archives and you will see what I mean. I call it the gatekeeper syndrome. How does one overcome the troll on the bridge? Three right answers does not apply here :-)


 * The good news is that new evidence and supporting documentation will soon overcome most of their objections. Even if it doesn't, a new and more easily accessible bridge will be used.


 * Tom05

Thanks Tom. A link to new evidence would help me most. I would have appreciated your assessment of this talk page a lot better if you didn't use personal attacks. No offense intended. Peace. &#2384; <strong style="color:orange;">Metta Bubble <sup style="color:red;">puff  01:58, 30 March 2006 (UTC)



Hi, it's not a personal attack. I am just sharing the theme of this article when it comes to the Wikipedia editors in general. Look over the archives as I mentioned above. My somewhat offbeat analogy about the gatekeepers is appropriate. Don't take it personally just be aware of the many visitors and contributers to this page over time that have been treated with abrupt disregard for there point of view and shut off. The editor's comments are in general far from a professional and non biased point of view.

Tom05

Tom05


 * Calling people you disagree with "trolls" does indeed come under WP:No personal attacks and is sanctionable as such, FYI. There is also a difference between not providing usable material and being "shut off". As MB says, "A link to new evidence would help...most". If someone tries to insert their point of view into an article, WP editors in general will enforce a Neutral point of view by removing unsourced material, speculation or original research. Unfortunately, New Age articles lend themselves to those syndromes. If you will look over the history of the page, you will see that I have also reverted a lot of unfair anti-reiki edits. I am a reasonable person, and certainly not a gatekeeper in any sense. I happen to have some knowledge of what reiki purports to be, and therefore feel qualified to edit this article. If people want to advertise reiki here in a manner that contravenes WP policy, they are going to run into problems. If anyone has the results of serious research to report, though, that is fine w/me. Fire Star


 * Regarding research, I would qualify the "serious research" phrase. In regards to Reiki I believe any notable enough individuals who claim to have done research are admissable if we stick to merely citing those individuals rather than saying what they've researched is evidence. Whether or not the research has been peer-reviewed or otherwise disqualified for scientific publication is becoming more and more irrelevant when you goal is to report topics like this in a neutral way. I hope that's not too controversial. Peace. &#2384; <strong style="color:orange;">Metta Bubble <sup style="color:red;">puff  23:20, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Keeping information
I reverted the edits of User:67.170.170.248 because I felt the information lost thereby was important to the article. The article's wording is the product of many authors, not one. I'm not biased against non-western medicine, but I do believe that there is a lot of chicanery in the New Age healing community. Unlike some other forms of traditional medicine, there aren't many studies at all that point to reiki making much of a difference, so for us to call it a form of "medicine" just won't work as yet. It may just be that reiki is relatively new, or it may be due to some other reason. --Fire Star 23:31, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't disagree with your actions, and also I think there was some merit in 67's edits. I encourage 67 to bring some of the edits here for discussion. For example, using "imbalance" in the opening sentence seems good to me, but it would then force us to define imblance in usable terms to our readership. I think there's some middle ground to be reached with the other edits also, but too much at once is impossible to discuss. Again, 67, please post problem sentences and suggested changes and I'm sure we'll get consensus on this talk page. Peace. &#2384; <strong style="color:orange;">Metta Bubble <sup style="color:red;">puff  05:19, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Reverting is for fighting vandalism not for punching newbies
Hello editors. Please stick to restoring the parts of the article you actually have a problem with. WP:REVERT reminds us that "Reverting is used primarily for fighting vandalism."

Reverting is not a mechanism for avoiding editorial discussion.

Blind reversions against any editors acting in good faith are unhelpful. I recently restored the edits of an anon editor. I'm not saying I agree with all the anon's edits. However, I do agree with some and many of the edits were spelling corrections and grammar improvements. These kinds of edits should be clearly encouraged.

Also remember, as per WP:REVERT "Explain your reverts!"

Peace. &#2384; <strong style="color:orange;">Metta Bubble <sup style="color:red;">puff  05:32, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Hello, my bad. I meant to leave a note here but got distracted and I must apologise. My concern was the anonymous ed.s change in the dollar amount of pricing info, and that gets me thinking about any pricing info in this (or any other) article. Do we have a source for it? As well, we should mention if it US dollars or not if someone does have a source. Again, sorry about that. --Fire Star 23:11, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

with Thanks...
I came back to this page today after many months to refresh my memory on a couple of items. I took a moment to read the page, and am __so__ thankful to all of you editors for your work on this page. When I first read it all those months ago, I was very discouraged by the negative POV, especially after having experienced the positive effects of Reiki myself. I understand fully the wiki credo of neutrality, and truly appreciate the care you all have taken in presenting this material with a careful and delicate style. Thank you so much. In love and light. Zirx 22:56, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Secret Teachings
A couple of days ago I deleted the entire section on Secret Teachings as this was offensive, extremely inaccurate and possibly libelous. The whole section was simply biased, unproven and unproveable opinion. 88.108.10.83 22:12, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, it didn't cite any sources, to be sure, so removing it was probably a good idea. --Fire Star 03:24, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd love to know where this idea has come from that Reiki is about "Secret Teachings". Any person who knows correctly about Reiki will know that the teachings and symbols used by Reiki are "Sacred" not "Secret". Yes, when students are taught Reiki level 1 they are not shown the symbols, not because they are secret, but because they are not needed at this level and it is seen that the student should become familiar with the use of energy techniques before progressing to level 2 where they will be shown the symbols. If they really want to see what the symbols look like then they can be easily found in many Reiki books or on the internet. As with teachings in any skill, students are taught what is needed for the level that they are at. I would like to request that the article is updated to say "Sacred" rather than "Secret". GC

Yes, certainly there is a valid point to be made over the issue of secret/sacred etc, but the piece that I deleted had nothing to do with symbols at all. It was an entirely derogatory statement made about the lineage of Reiki Jin Kei Do and the lineage head of that tradition, Ranga Premaratna. 88.108.3.164 11:32, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Nice attempt!
I'm assuming this is part of the the new Wikipedia Joke Articles Project (JAP). Actually quite well done. It starts off with kind of rant that almost sounds plausible:

"Reiki is a spiritual healing pseudoscientific technique proposed for the treatment of physical, emotional, spiritual or mental disease. It has no scientific basis."

There are many different kinds of research, not just "scientific", which is   a word sometimes used by lay people for the quantitative research and experimental research.

and then gets into some kind of "facts information" with references.

"According to a study published in Alternative Therapies, Jan/Feb 2005 issue, in 2002 there were over one million U.S. adults who have had one or more Reiki treatments."

I'm assuming this a reference to some kind of qualitative research.

But I think the best part is the picture. That's what really tipped me off. A man of Asian descent making a goofy face! That's great. Of course a real article would have a more flattering picture.

I don't mind the fact that it is a joke article that seems to be written by a four year old with no background in research or professional writing. What I do mind is that it is not in the new "Joke Articles Project" section (JAP). When doing research I need to find data fast. I don't want to read through most of the article before I figure out it's a joke. Anyway, well done! Good luck with the new project. Max fischer 14:09, 20 May 2006 (UTC) Max Fischer 8:54, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Taking the Micky
I've removed the image from the Reiki page, as someone had replaced the "healing hand" image that was there the other day with an image of someone slapping someone else with a backhand slap. They may think it's funny, but it is not Reiki. GC
 * Sorry, I laughed my head off. Jefffire 18:54, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Pseudoscience
User 58.178.137.47 states in an edit summary that there is consensus that Reiki is not a pseudoscience. This is untrue. I say it is a pseudoscience. Googling "reiki science" throws up many links which claim to explain reiki scientifically. Because those claims do not stack up to scientific scrutiny, they are pseudoscience. QED. I have reverted. Please discuss. Mccready 01:55, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Reiki is classified as a spiritual healing technique. It is not classified as pseudoscience (except amongst certain cliques, which obviously you are a member of). Please provide the following to back up your claim:


 * a verifiable reference for Mikao Usui stating he believes Reiki is a science.
 * a verifiable reference for a scientist who researched Reiki stating emphatically that Reiki makes verifiably unfounded claims to science.
 * a verifiable reference for the research that backs up those statements (if they exist)


 * The onus is on you to prove that Reiki is considered a pseudoscience. Googling "Reiki science" doesn't mean anything. I couldn't care less what every man and his dog is saying about Reiki. There are standards for inclusion in Wikipedia. I can google "Reiki and gardening" or "Reiki and cooking". So what?! It's doesn't mean that Reiki is edible or that it grows when you throw dung on it. 58.178.137.47 04:11, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * James Randi certainly calls it pseudoscience and I can maybe look up other sources if necessary. See  as examples. JoshuaZ 04:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * NPOV solution would seem to be just to say who calls it a pseudoscience and why, not to present the designation as fact. thx, Jim Butler 04:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * JoshuaZ. I read the two James Randi links. The second link doesn't contain any opinion from Randi about Reiki whatsoever. It is more like an internet forum. You summarised the first link by saying "Randi certainly calls it pseudoscience". Actually, what he does expound is this:


 * He interviews an anonymous Reiki practitioner
 * He challenges the practitioner to prove Reiki works (and hence win a million dollar prize)
 * The practitioner refuses
 * Randi concludes, Reiki is pseudoscience.


 * The whole thing reads like a variety show performance. Which part of this anonymous interview did you want to incorporate into our encyclopedia as being a notable scientific reference about Reiki? 58.178.153.192 06:05, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

copied from Jim Butler's talkpage for information:
 * Jim, You seem to be following me around. I don't have a problem with that because I believe the definition of wikistalking MUST involve harassment. Your edits on Reiki appear to have been done without looking at the discussion and examining the links. A googling of "reiki science" throws up many sites which set out in great detail why reiki is a science. Given the fact that these claims do not stack up scientifically (prove me wrong), the pseduoscience label applies. I have reported user 58.178.137.47 whose edit summary adding cooking etc said Added other fields Reiki has no basis in... to balance out the biased science comments in opening, for vandalism and suspected sockpuppetry. Mccready 08:32, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Kevin -- just keeping an eye on your alt-meds edits for POV, and editing them in good faith, which as we both know is not Wikistalking. (I took no offense when you did the same thing on the Adi Da and Facilitated Communication articles, although in both cases your edits reflected some lack of understanding of the topics, which you had never edited before and haven't edited since.) No harm intended by my edits, I hope you realize; we simply disagree on NPOV and on what is appropriate in lead sections. I stand corrected on Reiki as "science", as I'd never seen it portrayed as a "science" before. To the extent that it is portrayed as scientific, I would have no problem designating it as pseudoscience. In any case, since the label is contentious and not universally agreed-upon (since some Reiki practitioners don't portray it as scientific), we need to remember NPOV. As I indicated on the Reiki talk page, the NPOV solution would seem to be just to say who calls it a pseudoscience and why, not to present the designation as fact. Looks like other editors have done this already. Also, for the record, I have no particular opinion on the value of Reiki as a healing art or spiritual practice. thx, Jim Butler 04:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

User 58.178.137.47, what the "founder" believed is not the clincher in this discussion I'm afraid. What is relevant is that many practitioners seek to legitimise it by calling it a science. If you seek to disprove the label you need to show how many reiki beleivers think it's a religion and not a science. Mccready 06:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't agree with your attempt to place the burden of proof here, Kevin. Calling something a "pseudoscience" involves a judgement call.  There are no universally agreed-upon objective criteria for that category (e.g., as with the category cult, but not quadruped).  What's the matter with the obvious NPOV route I mentioned above, per JoshuaZ's recent edit?  Honestly, I think your passion for these issues has made you somewhat tone-deaf as to how to frame them appropriately; this latest edit is still in the ballpark of your writing in lead sections that "X has no basis in science", which other Wikipedians have criticized.  No respectable encyclopedia would say such things.  thx, Jim Butler 06:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Kevin, the terms "religion" and "spiritual" are not synonymous at all. It's a nescient comparison. We'd be hard pushed to find a notable Reiki practitioner that doesn't consider Reiki to be a spiritual healing technique. So I'd be interested if anyone can show us where there is a notable Reiki practitioner that considers Reiki to be more based in scientific work than spiritual/energy work. 58.178.153.192 00:20, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Jim and believers in Reiki, you'll just have to get used to the idea that pseudoscience is a legitimate word to use in an encyclopedia whether or not you think it's a loaded term. Check the definition of pseudoscience. Reiki fits. If you can show some objective basis in science for it then we can talk about an alteration. 58, necsient is a nice word don't you think? Again you confuse the issue. Whether it is MORE science than not is not the issue. The issue is that many claim it IS science. Since it is not then it is a pseudoscience. I'll place pseudoscience in the lead again. Mccready 11:20, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Echoing my comments from the prolotherapy talk page: First, I don't agree that it's an appropriate designation to give without sourcing under NPOV, because it's a loaded and contentious term.  Obviously, the NPOV solution is to say "Randi (or whoever) has criticized it as pseudoscience": why is that insufficient?  Second, leaving aside its negative connotations, one must consider the technical accuracy of the designation:  Reiki is psuedoscientific only to the degree that its practitioners call it scientific.  How widespread is that designation?  Bottom line, calling something pseudoscience is a POV because there are no objective criteria for putting something in that category.  As I said, if ALL Reiki practitioners claimed it was a "science", I personally would have no problem applying the term.  Still, I don't think that my judgement calls (or my POV, or my "original research") are what ought to drive Wikipedia.  Jim Butler 20:01, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The point of the Randi links is that there are skeptics who call it pseudoscience (and there are other times Randi has done so), whether he is justified is a separate issue. The point is that there are prominent skeptics who call it a pseudoscience. JoshuaZ 05:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't doubt your point, JoshuaZ. And I think your NPOV rewording was the way to go.  But the reference in the lead nonetheless doesn't support the assertion, so let's find one that does.  thx, Jim Butler 05:42, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Obtuse re Randi
it's obtuse in the extreme not to make the wholly legitimate inference that randi thinks Reiki is bs. This is akin in logic to saying the pope doesn't abhore certain sexual practices which he doesn't actually name. I'm reverting. And Jim, your removal of the link altogether was also extreme. WP is about improving, not about removing stuff you don't like. In future could you please reword to achieve what you consider to be NPOV, rather than remove stuff entirely. This is not the first time you have done this. Mccready 07:47, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The question isn't whether Randi thinks it's bullshit, but whether he says it's pseudoscientific. Why should I leave in a reference that doesn't say what it's cited for?  Jim Butler 07:55, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * What needs to be said in the lead isn't what Randi thinks, but that scientists are skeptical; done. -Jim Butler 08:04, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Because you can use your brain and make the inference, that's why? Are you trying to contribute to an encyclopedia or defend BS. We are allowed to make inferences you know and this is the smallest one I have ever seen. Your attitude is tiresome and unproductive. Pls desist. Mccready 08:11, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * You honestly think a flawed citation of Randi is better than a fact tag, or a statement saying "most scientists are skeptical" as I suggested? I'd like to hear from other editors on this.  As for the reference, read it.  Randi is saying Reiki is BS and that it can't be proven, which is not the same as saying it's pseudoscience.  Sure it's in the same ballpark, but why not just have a better reference, or make the point differently?  You're assuming I'm in total bad-faith mode here, and that's not the case.  -Jim Butler 09:31, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Stop being a dick Mccready. You're applying double-standards everywhere. You can infer to your hearts content. Just don't write your inferences into the article. If Randi's opinion is so bleeding obvious then it should shine through like organic sunshine from any citation we use from him...


 * but it doesn't... funny that.


 * The truth of the matter is that Randi's words are cagey and non-specific -- other than saying that he doesn't particularly like alternative medicine practitioners and he has a penchant for picking on new agey types. If you think this man is some shining beacon of truth, then let his words stands for themselves. As per Wikipedia policy. It seems you only like to follow policy when it suits you. 202.67.127.250 12:19, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * My my sensitive little soul aren't we. If you think it through 202 you'll see perhaps we agree. Quote some words or find a form of words we're all happy with. DON'T DELETE THE SOURCE. That's not nice and it's not cooperative. Jim, Once again you waste more time trying to defend a position rather than make a sensible edit. If that is your position then WHY delete the source? How can I assume good faith of an editor deleting sources because references to them may not be word perfect, who has an obvious position to defend and who has placed misleading edit summaries on his edits? In fact I have read the source. I thought the reference to obfuscating drivel particularly apt. Would you or would you not be happy with the statement "Randi is skeptical of the scientific claims for reiki and notes that not a single reiki believer has taken up the offer to win a million dollars by proving reiki in a scientific test."?


 * Sorry Kevin, but I can't accept that sentence. Even as a skeptic, I cringe at the idea of having Wikipedia giving these million dollar offers any legitimacy.  These offers have no bearing on truth or science are nothing more than PR stunts and have been employed by ID proponents to artificially boost their credibility.  See  (search for $250,000).  If Wikipedia were to document these things, the better place to put them would be on a Randi page or under controversy as a POV and providing a link to a page that explains that cash prizes are problematic.  -- Newhoggy | Talk 13:15, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Newhoggy good point and one I accept. Would you like to propose or insert a form of words? Mccready 13:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm content with calling Reiki an art over psuedoscience, for a number of reasons. Firstly, while there are people who claim it is an science (ie. explanable in scientific terms) and hence supports the view that it is a psuedoscience, there are people who don't go there and in fairness we shouldn't try to paint them all under the same brush.  The second reason is the fact that scientific evidence does not show that it provides any benefit beyond the placebo effect does not invalidate it as a healing art because the placebo effect can be a powerful way of giving relief where other methods have failed.  I was reading about when a doctor administered a pain killer to a patient which worked, only to later discover the 'pain killer' was only a saline solution.  Apparently, believing the shot contained morphine was enough to trigger the same neural-chemical response as the real thing.  The pseudoscientific nature of some practises and explanations should be noted as they are found - but specifically rather than generally. -- Newhoggy | Talk 05:07, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Another alternative that could break the ice is to say something like "it is psuedoscientific to the extent that it is describe as having a scientific basis beyond the placebo effect (citations needed)." -- Newhoggy | Talk 06:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't delete the source? Just like you just did on Chiropractic? Nice double-standard. The short of it is this... find a quote, source it, put it in.


 * You write paragraph after paragraph crying about people deleting your words, when you could be actually looking for sources for your words. The fact that you keep arguing instead of backing up your edits really proves the point... the edit has no basis. 202.67.127.250 13:13, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah, 202, you are very amusing. Please assume good faith. If I deleted a source in error from the chiro page please provide the diff on the appropriate page and we can have a look at it. Mccready 13:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Pseudoscience - Monthly notice
I edit lots of pages where pseudoscience is an appropriate appellation. I also edit other pages so don't get the wrong idea. In order to increase efficiency and avoid repetition I plan to set out on my userpage some editing principles I abide by. Once a month, or as needed, I'll post to individual talkpages on this issue. Please note this is NOT an attempt to avoid discussion as some have alleged. I have also used the revert function which does not allow an edit summary. Again this is an efficient way to handle the problem of editors who IGNORE stuff I have already written on talkpages and then have the temerity to suggest I ignore them. Again, please assume good faith and don't accuse me of being unwilling to seek consensus - that is blatantly untrue.

The problem with pseudoscientific explanations is that they pop up all the time like the multi-headed hydra, either by deluded people or by people seeking to exploit vulnerable people. James Randi in a list which makes no claim to be comprehensive sets out 28:


 * Dowsing. ESP. Precognition. Remote Viewing. Communicating with the Dead and/or "Channeling". Violations of Newton's Laws of Motion (Perpetual Motion Devices). Homeopathy. Chiropractic Healing (beyond back/joint problems). Faith Healing. Psychic Surgery. Astrology. Therapeutic Touch (aka "TT"). Qi Gong. Psychokinesis (aka "PK"). The Existence of Ghosts. Precognition & Prophecy. Levitation. Physiognomy. Psychometry. Pyramid Power. Reflexology. Applied Kinesiology (aka "AK"). Clairvoyance. The Existence of Auras. Graphology. Numerology. Palmistry. Phrenology.

Wikipedia lists 46 (some overlap and some are disputed by wikipedians):
 * Acupuncture (Williams 2000:3-4; Carroll 2003:5-7), Applied kinesiology (Hyman 1999:34-43; Kenny et al. 1988:698-704),  Astrology (but this was once protoscientific in that it once tried to record measurement of the position of heavenly bodies) (Williams 2000:18-19; Carroll 2003:34-36),  Anthroposophy (Carroll 2003:25-28),  Biblical scientific foresight,  Christian Science (Williams 2000:51),  Creation science (Williams 2000:64-65; Carroll 2003:85-89) and its offshoots and many of the "theories" invoked in its defense:,,     * Baraminology,     * Creation biology,     * Creationist cosmologies,     * Flood geology,     * Intelligent design ( Carroll 2003:180-83),           o Irreducible complexity,           o Specified complexity, ,  Cryptozoology (Williams 2000:70-71; Carroll 2003:9),  Dianetics (The pseudoscience of Scientology.) (Williams 2000:82-83; Carroll 2003:99-102),  Duesberg hypothesis (Claims that HIV is a "harmless agent" unrelated to AIDS),  Eugenics (Williams 2000:98-101),  Graphology (Williams 2000:137-38; Carroll 2003:156),  Homeopathy (Williams 2000:148),  Megalithic yard and other pseudoscientific metrology (Williams 2000:210),  Melanin Theory,  Modern geocentrism (see also Flat Earth Society),  Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) (Williams 2000:235; Carroll 2003:252-57),  New Chronology,  Novelty Theory (aka "Timewave Zero"),  Orgonomy (Williams 2000:248-49; Carroll 2003:267-68),  Palmistry (Williams 2000:256; Carroll 2003:271-72),  Perpetual motion (Williams 2000:262),  Personology (Carroll 2003:282-83),  Phrenology (Williams 2000:266-68; Carroll 2003:286-88),  Physiognomy (Williams 2000:268; Carroll 2003:288-89),  Pyramidology (Williams 2000:290-91),  Quantum mysticism,  Remote Viewing (Williams 2000:301-2; Carroll 2003:331-33),  Scientology (Williams 2000:312-13),  Spiritualism (Williams 2000:326-27; Carroll 2003:364-65),  Synchronicity (Williams 2000:338),  Telekinesis/Psychokinesis (Williams 2000:288; Carroll 2003:374),  Telepathy (Williams 2000:346-47; Carroll 2003:374),  Time Cube (also see Gene Ray),  Unidentified Flying Objects (Williams 2000:359-60; Carroll 2003:146, 387-88),  Vedic science (Alexander et al., Select Press; 1st edition, 2005)

So you can see the problem, we as encyclopedists are dealing with because on many pages in wikipedia there are people who will swear blind that they know their particular belief in their particular psuedoscience is true. They often cite their personal experience, not understanding their own psychology, not understanding the regressive fallacy and not understanding that anecdotal evidence is an oxymoron, or not understanding the need for replicability before such claims can be accepted in an encyclopedia or by science. It is difficult dealing with this type of religiosity in editors.

So I will continue to use the revert function, but will do so only under the conditions outlined above.

Newhoggy's suggestion
On Newhoggy's statement above. Yes we are getting closer to consensus. How about "many believers of reiki use psuedoscience to support their beliefs". I don't agree with calling it an art which I'm using in the OED meaning of skill in doing anything as the result of knowledge and practice. Anyone can set up shop as a Reiki Master (I personally know one poor fellow who has done this) and it requires no skill, no knowledge and no practice. Yes the placebo effect is powerful and, unfortunately, not well understood. But that is no reason to avoid the use of the term pseudoscience. I didn't quite understand the form of words suggested above but it is heading in the right direction. I might note that we don't need citations for every statement we make. We are quite at liberty to draw logical inferences in creating an article. Mccready 08:20, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * "Reiki is an art", or "Reiki is a skill in healing as the result of knowledge and practice". Certainly this concept is in need of explanation so I will try express my own rationalisation of how these apparently contradictory ideas can be reconciled from a skeptic's point of view:  Reiki is a practise (ie. something a person does) that is used for the purpose of giving relief from ailments (usually symptoms of pain) through the use of the placebo effect.  The placebo effect is not a well understood phenomenon, but it is well documented and scientifically shown to be real.  The effectiveness of the placebo effect is heavily dependent on the state of mind of the patient including but not limited to the extent to which the patient believes in the validity of the practise and believes in the competency of the practitioner.  The Reiki skill is therefore not how the practitioner channels energy, but rather the degree to which the practitioner can convince the patient that a substantial action is occurring and that the action is beneficial for the treated ailment.  Only then will a positive placebo effect be brought forth in the patient.  Unfortunately it is difficult to be convincing without believing - thus the predicament that the practise on the one hand can bring about beneficial physiological changes, but on the other hand accumulates explanations with no physical basis, that exist as a reality only in the mind of believers (ie. a useful form of knowledge despite its falseness - science usually calls these things models).  Some Reiki supporters would probably be very upset with my explanation, but with this reasoning does allow me to honestly say Reiki is an art.  -- Newhoggy | Talk 12:54, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * On citations. Though not strictly needed, its still a good practise which on the one hand improve the quality of the article and on the other hand helps editors deal with reconciling contradictory POV.  The improvement in quality I believe is real because it forms the basis with which future editors (particularly those with less expertise in the topic) can verify and conduct further research. -- Newhoggy | Talk 13:07, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Sounds reasonable to me. Convincing the "patient" to part with substantial amounts of their currency for the placebo effect would put it in the realm of a "confidence art," perhaps! Regardless, the proposal is perfectly acceptable as far as I am concerned. --Fire Star 火星 13:13, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Newhoggy, I enjoyed your thoughts, but I really don't think that using a term like "art" is NPOV just because it's amusingly double-edged. If we have to rationalize it that much, it's probably POV/OR.  Why not just use "practice"?  And I think "faith healing" which Kevin had earlier certainly fits; objections from some Reikiists appear to be along the lines that the patient need not believe in it, but that's actually not part of the definition. Unless a lot of Reikiists reject the term, seems like an appropriate one. -Jim Butler 07:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh well, I can't say I didn't try :-) -- Newhoggy | Talk 12:50, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Aye, 'twas a worthy screed. :-) -Jim Butler 19:09, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I've been trying to think of a reason why it can't be called "faith healing", but I haven't been able to come up with anything. -- Newhoggy | Talk 06:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC).

Use of the words "science" and "pseudoscience" ... in the lead section etc.
Pseudoscience refers to something misrepresented as being scientific (i.e., in compliance with the scientific method). Some have pointed to Reiki proponents' use of the term "science" as evidence of such misrepresentation, but that logic fails to take into account that the term has a generic meaning beyond the scientific method. It can mean simply an "Organized body of knowledge; any particular art or discipline". (Variations on this definition appear in other dictionaries; e.g. Merriam-Webster has "knowledge obtained through study or practice".) Thus, a Reiki practitioner may legitimately refer to Reiki as a "science" and simply mean that it is systematic.

I'm not familiar enough with Reiki to know what its proponents really mean when they call it a "science", and it's fine for the article to say (verifiably) "so-and-so says Reiki is pseudoscience", even if so-and-so's logic is faulty. However, this issue serves as another reminder of why Wikipedia's three pillars of NPOV, verifiability and NOR are important. I still firmly believe that classifying something as a pseudoscience requires NPOV wording and a citation, no matter how obvious the classification may appear to be, and no matter how much the alleged pseudoscience reeks of bullshit. Remember, if it's that obvious or noteworthy, someone will have said so already.... thx, Jim Butler 06:45, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think I'm having problems with my brain physiology. After looking at Kevin's removal of the fact-tag on Randi and pseudoscience, I find myself thinking that I've entered into a world where Wikipedia has gone away and been replaced by an exact duplicate where WP:V no longer applies.  Can anyone help? -Jim Butler 06:31, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Whatsidynamics?
Chromodynamically, flavordynamically, geometrodynamically, and electrodynamically? I don't think the credibility of the scientific criticism of Reiki is helped by these words because they make no sense to a lay person. Why can't we just say the four known fundamental forces of nature and leave these terms to the scientific articles that have the scope that can do them justice? -- Newhoggy | Talk 13:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Completely agree, and the section isn't even technically correct because it conflates energy with force. I tried a rewrite... thx, Jim Butler 14:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Much better. Thankyou.  -- Newhoggy | Talk 01:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Faith healing
The entry for faith healing is clearly written so that it encompasses Reiki. Some definitions are written more narrowly, indicating explicit (rather than, say, implicit) belief on the part of the person receiving treatment. In popular usage, are the terms "faith healing" and "spiritual healing" distinct from one another? Probably not, as I think about it, since one hears of faith healing being practiced upon people who don't believe in it. But it may bear some research.... -Jim Butler 20:29, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Criticism from Christian Churches and Groups
The recent rewrite of this section is unsourced, appears to draw heavily from the fundamentalist/Evangelical Christian POV, and portrays that view as speaking for all Christianity. Needs work from editors familiar with subject matter and Wikipedia conventions. Tagged, and moved back under controversy heading. thx, Jim Butler 20:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Jim - I'm a now retired Reiki/Seichim master, and wrote that section - so you're incorrect to say that I'm unfamilar with the subject matter as I have contributed a great deal to much of the present wiki Reiki article - without blowing my own horn too much, I was the first Westerner that was known of to translate the distant healing and master symbols (I for example helped William Rand with his attempts to translate them and found errors in his claims) - I trained with Beth Gray among many others (one of Takata's masters) over 20 years ago. I also helped track down what is now called Traditional Japanese Reiki in the 80's etc, etc. I would say that it is quite incorrect to say that the POV is Christian fundamentalist/evangelical, as any sect of Christianity whatsoever condemns any and all sort of supernatural practice. There just isn't any form of Christanity that I can think of that accepts any supernatural/occult practice in any form. If you can think of one, please let me know - but I just can't think of one. I'll cite some evidence to substantiate this.

Regardless of one's particular form of Christanity, theologians agree that their are three main streams of Christanity - Roman Church, Eastern Church and Protestant Church (see the above link for info on it if you're interested) - and all of them condemn practices like Reiki directly or indirectly without any exception. Fundamentalism/ Evangelical Christianity is a relatively small (but rather loud) sect within Protestanism, but the cricticism against occult practive is universal in all Christian churches. It's quite common to hear the term incorrectly to mean "hard line" or "extreme viewed", however I'd respectfully suggest that you're using the term in this way as even the most moderate Christian Churches condem supernatural practices. I've therefore removed the tag, but will provide some sources soon. Regards - Sean White


 * Thanks Sean. I didn't say you were unfamiliar with the subject matter, only that the article needed attention from someone familiar both with the subject matter and Wikipedia principles WP:NPOV, WP:V and WP:NOR (the latter is one reason why your own expertise isn't sufficient unless you can source your claims).  You are simply wrong that opposition to Reiki is as universal among Christians as you say it is.  There are many who both practice Reiki and self-identify as Christians, as Googling for e.g. "Reiki Methodism" will show.  In fact, your claims are so over-the-top that I'm moving them to the talk page for now.  No offense, but unsourced statements can be removed at any time, and these are so extreme that they I feel they don't even belong in the article with an NPOV tag.  (Wikilinking to terms is not adequate sourcing as you know.)  I'm more than happy to put some of them back in once you have adequately sourced them, but some are so extreme that they are plainly wrong.  thx, Jim Butler 19:32, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Jim - I don't agree that I am unfamilar with Wikipedia and POV an would suggest that you are having some trouble with bias and using fairly superficial criticism to counter an idea that you don't personally like. I stated that all Christian Churches are opposed to Reiki and similar practices, Not all people who self identify as being Christian in some sort of vague personal sense - the topic pertains to Christian Churches and their doctrines not to not practicing but self identifying Christians (who may or may not be infact in line with their actual Church if they have any at all). For instance, a person may call themselves a Catholic and worship Satan etc, so they may call themselves Catholic and may perhaps not be a baptised Catholic at all, as they are clearly not in line with Catholic teaching or having recieved the baptism to call themselves one. This is all pretty much common sense.

I personally don't particularily agree with the Christian POV myself as I belive it's quite simplistic, however it is the Christian POV and so therefore must be accurately represented, regardless of you or my particular opinions about it (whether for or against). I have therefore returned it to the front page, and will continue to do so if you unfortunately attempt to censor what it clearly fact because it doesn't conform to your particular tastes. If you are able to cite Christian churchs doctrine that supports Reiki, I'd be happy to change the section, however until you do it (which won't likely happen), it will remain. to qualigy however - You might have some luck with the actual Episcopalians (and perhaps some new age Anglicans clergy) in terms of some of their clergy actually practicing Reiki but they are not generally seen as not being a coherent Church as it appears to be falling apart because of so many conflicts and divergent views (however I should add this to the section too I think). In any case, as I have said no Christian doctrine from any Church actually condons supernatual practices like Reiki. Please feel free to cite a teaching to prove me wrong, and I'll include it in the section.

Here are some brief links that support my claims on say for instance the Eastern and Western Churches (Catholic and Orthdox): "Reiki has foundational beliefs and practices that are irreconcilable with Catholicism, including not recognizing Jesus as a divine Person and the Savior of all mankind. Reiki involves a belief similar to pantheism, in which a universal life energy—not Jesus—provides life to all living beings and is also said to govern the Reiki healing process. Because Reiki practitioners believe they can harness and use this universal life energy, Reiki is not simply a form of superstition but rather opens oneself up to dangerous involvement in the occult practices of divination and magic" (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, nos. 2111, 2116-17).

A good general discussion of the Catholic/Eastern Orthodox arguement http://www.cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=200

In the Catechism of the Catholic Church nos. 2116-2117 (written by the current Pope - The CCC is the definitive encapsulated doctrine of the Catholic Church (East and West Churches)): "". . .Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, **the phenomena of clairvoyance**, and recourse to **mediums** all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone. All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others even if this were for the sake of restoring their health are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her own part warns the faith against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either powers or the exploitation of another's credulity." NB - I have added the bold markings.

Regards, Sean --59.167.69.32 22:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Sean - Thanks for clarifying your view. I too am not partial to the Christian view and agree it should be represented accurately, which means we should source adequately and not overgeneralize.


 * I don't want to get into an edit war here, but you seem confused about burden of proof, and you aren't abiding by Wikipedia policy by putting unsourced claims back into the article after they have been challenged. Please review this, from Burden of evidence:
 * The burden of evidence lies with the editors who have made an edit or wish an edit to remain. Editors should therefore provide references. If an article topic has no reputable, reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on that topic.


 * Any edit lacking a source may be removed, but some editors may object if you remove material without giving people a chance to provide references. If you want to request a source for an unsourced statement, a good idea is to move it to the talk page. Alternatively, you may tag the sentence ...


 * Please also see WP:NOR regarding overgeneralizing and formulating your own conclusions and arguments. There are way too many statements in that section that require sources.  I didn't mean to be a dick by taking it off the page, but I hope you realize that it's very uncool to remove tags without discussion.  I'm fine with leaving the material there for awhile so you can dig up sources, but in the meantime I'm at least going to put the tag back on the section.


 * I do acknowledge your point about the distinction between churches and practitioners, and agree on what Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox leadership say. Please feel free to add the sources you cite for those branches.  However, your claim about "all Christian churches" just doesn't work for Protestant denominations given their diversity (ha, I almost typed "demon-inations" -- must have been Satan! ;-).  Great latitude exists as to how much emphasis is given to concerns about the occult, or what is identified as occult.  Some Christians, including leaders of churches, perceive Reiki as a valid form of faith healing.  Googling for "christian reiki church" turned up this example written by the pastor of an Oregon church.  So, that's a counterexample that is sufficient to refute the general claim.  But it's still necessary on Wikipedia to cite a source saying that other churches, or a majority, hold that Reiki is occult.  Hope you agree.  Jim Butler 00:38, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Jim, I'll put some decent work into citing some strong sources (such as adding the CCC quotations), and will also expand the discussion to incorporate some of the actual practices of clerics such as the one in the link you've provided. There have even been cases of Catholic nuns running Reiki workshops too for example (who have subsequently been disciplined for doing so). I think from our discussion that I should also clarify what "occult" specifically means to these various churches by their particular definitions. I agree as you say that some Protestant clerics endorse Reiki, such as the link you provided however I think I really need to clarify the divergence between Church doctrines and actual Church practice, and this seems to me to be the main point of contention in what I'm claiming so I'll clarify this. - Regards, Sean


 * Thanks, Sean. I agree that divergence between church doctrines and practice is a big issue here.  The other one is, again, what exactly the church doctrines are.  Big and little Protestant denominations, and unaffiliated churches, are all over the place in terms of how much concern they give to what is "occult" and whether Reiki fits the definition.  So, just because X denomination is greatly concerned about occultism doesn't necessarily mean that they automatically put Reiki in the same boat as (say) invoking pagan spirits.  Denominations also vary in terms of how much latitude individual congregations and members retain to determine these things (e.g., Quakers).  Therefore I'd like to remove the "all" statement, which is unsourced and, when it comes to Protestantism, most likely untrue.  We can leave the RCC and Eastern Churches in there since it seems likely that their "official" position is opposed to Reiki.  best regards, Jim Butler 04:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Introduction
A large part of the article appears to have been written from the skeptic POV. I have attempted to remedy the introduction for now, which should always be written in a voice sympathetic to the subject. Some sentences have been moved to their appropriate sections as well. Aquirata 03:45, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, the voice for any of our articles should be neutral. If there are people who believe in it, we should report that. Conversely, if there are notable critics who think reiki is a load of bollocks (and I think there are) we have to report that as well. --Fire Star 火星 20:20, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The standard is to implement NPOV by sympathetically describing a group from its own perspective, then sympathetically describing other perspectives. NPOV requires including all significant viewpoints. -Will Beback 22:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure of the level of separation you are talking about here. There has been a trend recently to use this idea to write a sympathetic article with all criticisms hidden at the bottom. Doing so is not acceptable. Differing views should be integrated together into one coherent article, where the reader takes in the views at the same time. The introduction should contain an introduction to major criticism as well as an introduction to the topic, if the criticism is notable enough. Otherwise Time Cube (my favorite example article) would have a rather interesting introduction. --Philosophus T 00:47, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * That's a very badly written intro in my view. Aquirata 12:41, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * An introduction should familiarize the reader with the subject. The reader must be familiar with the subject before he can understand and appreciate any criticism. By including criticism in the introduction, you are encouraging partisan mentality, which is not what an encyclopedia is about. Aquirata 12:44, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * How is labelling Reiki 'pseudoscience' relevant in terms of the article? Do practitioners claim that Reiki is science or scientific? I'm specifically referring to the sentence: "Scientists and skeptics such as James Randi consider Reiki a pseudoscience, and point to studies finding no difference between Reiki and the Placebo effect.[4]" Aquirata 12:45, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not labelling it as pseudoscience. I am saying that certain groups of people consider it as such. What the practitioners claim isn't important to that - they would matter if we were labelling it as pseudoscience. --Philosophus T 14:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Your argument falls by the definition of 'pseudoscience': "Pseudoscience is a term applied to a body of alleged knowledge, methodology, belief, or practice that is portrayed as scientific but diverges substantially from the required standards for scientific work or is unsupported by sufficient scientific research." If Reiki is not portrayed as scientific, then it is irrelevant who calls it pseudoscience. Aquirata 16:53, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * No, it is relevant. The definition of pseudoscience doesn't matter, since the text is just stating the opinion of a group of people. Even if that opinion makes no sense from the definitions of the words, it is still relevant. --Philosophus T 22:03, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, so the quote is non-sensical in your opinion, too. I am removing it based on violation of WP:NOT. Aquirata 00:32, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * That is not what I am saying. It is a major viewpoint by a major and significant group of people. Not also that I did not say that the opinion makes no sense. I was just saying that the rationality and correctness of the opinion does not matter so long as the opinion is notable. --Philosophus T 00:38, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It is non-notable due to it bearing no relation to the subject matter. It violates WP policy, how can you disregard that? Aquirata 00:44, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It is a major view on the subject matter. It certainly is relevant to the subject matter. This argument is akin to saying that the criticism that Time Cube is nonsense is not related to the article's topic because supporters don't claim that it makes sense. --Philosophus T 00:50, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Please don't be personal attack removed . Reiki doesn't claim to be scientific, therefore the term 'pseudoscience' doesn't apply no matter who says it. Aquirata 00:55, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Please, no personal attacks. --Fire Star 火星 01:38, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, please - would you address the issue? Aquirata 01:40, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The personal attack policy is non-negotiable. Until that is established, the only issue is how long until administrative sanctions are imposed. People usually get three warnings. --Fire Star 火星 01:42, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * By the way, would you please explain how my post in your view was a personal attack? I've seen various administrators interpret policies in wildly different ways, so nothing surprises me any more. My post was certainly not meant as an attack, and I'd like to know how you can see it that way. We've been dancing around this simple issue for some time now. I've explained my position several times, but understanding has not happened so far. Aquirata 02:02, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The machinery is now set in motion. Isn't editing other people's comments considered WP:VAND? Aquirata 01:45, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Fire Star, Perhaps you can actually help solve this problem we are having here? Aquirata 01:50, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, you described Philosophus using terminology that could be seen as accusing Philosophus of not being intelligent. Traditionally, many editors when enforcing WP:NPA policy remove personal attacks on sight. It didn't have anything to do with the content of the article, it had to do with a personal attribute you were assigning to Philosophus. You are relatively new, so an explanation of the policy is reasonable expectation. As far as the content dispute goes, if a notable critic has described reiki as a pseudoscience, using that word, then we will report that. Of course, it will have to be sourced. What we want is an article written so that a reasonable reader will not be able to discern the personal biases of those who wrote it. --Fire Star 火星 02:55, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the explanation. Like I said, that wasn't what I meant. Ultimately I guess it will be the user in question who will decide whether it was a personal attack.
 * The issue at hand is whether the statement in the article is relevant to the article. If I understand your reasoning correctly: can say physics be called pseudo-religious as long as a reliable and notable source says it is regardless whether or not physicists claim their discipline is a religion? Aquirata 08:46, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, since I'm an administrator, I decide if it is an attack. To be fair, it was in the middle of an argument, and you are taking my points seriously, so now I'm convinced it isn't a problem. Your point about physics and religion is a valid one, I've heard that proposition before actually, and if you were to find a source that you could show meets the notability requirements well enough for the people who watch the physics articles (or at least the scientific method) to be satisfied then I at least would consider it an interesting aside. I am wondering if Randi specifically said that reiki was a pseudoscience or whether it was lumped in with all the other paranormal activities Randi likes to rain on. The latter would weaken the argument for inclusion of the statement, IMO. --Fire Star 火星 13:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks for this clarification. The 'Randi bit' was a letter to a hospital planning to host a 'Reiki healing clinic'. In usual Randi style, 'pseudoscience' was just one of the pejorative terms used with respect to Reiki; others included "quack notion", "retreat to superstition and medieval thinking", "quackery", "hand-waving" and "superstition". The actual sentence in which the term appeared reads: "It appears that the quackery session, an exhibit and endorsement of hand-waving, pseudoscience, and superstition, will take place under the auspices of Massachusetts General Hospital as officially scheduled." So he doesn't actually state that Reiki is pseudoscience, but this can be inferred from the sentence in the context of the letter. Aquirata 07:51, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * What I want to avoid is passive language like "...believed to be beneficial for treating physical, emotional, spiritual and mental diseases" that implies we here at Wikipedia believe such a thing. --Fire Star 火星 15:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Criticism section
The way this article is currently organised relegates all criticisms to the end of the article, essentially making it a sympathetic article with criticism tacked on the end. This is highly detrimental to the NPOV of the article. A reader should read both sides of arguments at the same time in a truly neutral article.

There are a quite a few cases where this is very noticeable. For example, the Training section doesn't contain any of the controversy over teaching speed. In my opinion this rather makes Reiki look more like a scam. Someone wanting to learn about Reiki training would learn from the section that teaching times very widely, that some courses are very fast, and some courses can even be done over the Internet, which is rather suspect for a skill that would need finesse and experience. Nowhere in the section is it mentioned that some in the community disagree with these courses, and the section makes the situation sound as if no one really cares about quality in the teaching. If the subsection of the criticism were merged into this section, a reader would get a balanced view that would show a more positive situation, with wide variance in requirements and speed but with very fast courses being considered suspect by others in the community. --Philosophus T 01:16, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * We need to mention the criticims in the intro. I've added a brief mention, it doesn't need to go into the same detail as later in the article. NPOV requires that all significant viewpoints be included. -Will Beback 08:25, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Why? It is an irrelevant comment and simply degrades the article into name calling and labelling. Aquirata 10:14, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * An editor removed some text with the summary:
 * Reiki doesn't claim to be scientific hence cannot be pseudoscience'.
 * The matter here is that we, as Wikipedia editors, need to constrain ourselves to verifiably summarizing reliable sources using the neutral point of view. It is not our job to say that those who call Reiki a "pseudoscience" are wrong, or right, or that those those make any claim about it are one thing or another. We just report that some folks say X, while other folks say Y. That's the WP:NPOV way. -Will Beback 10:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, so if some reputable and notable source says that "many scientists are faggots", then we include that in the 'Science' article as a relevant POV in the spirit of NPOV? Or do we include the statement "the Pope hates niggers" in the 'Catholicism' article as long as the source is reliable? The point of not including the 'pseudoscience' comment is that it is irrelevant in terms of the topic. Surely as editors we need to decide whether or not a statement is relevant to the topic? Aquirata 11:13, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

If you can reliable verify those statement then yes, you could put them into the appropriate article (with a NPOV rewording). For the record, I'm sure that many scientists are homosexual. Jefffire 13:29, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * But can you quote them word for word? Aquirata 14:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Please read our core policies, WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:NOR. They cover this situation. -Will Beback 18:24, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Spiritually guided
This phrase in the introduction has been replaced by "ghostly", which shows a total lack of understanding of what Reiki is and what the kanji character Rei means. I have reverted this change based on the following: I can come up with more references in case the above is not satisfactory. I would also like to ask anyone not familiar with Reiki to Talk before making such changes. Aquirata 15:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Indian Reiki Masters - Introduction to Reiki
 * Dharma Memphis - Reiki
 * Alef Reiki - What is traditional Reiki?
 * NY International Reiki Center - What is Reiki?
 * The International Center for Reiki Training - Reiki Energy
 * SpiritLightWorks - Reiki - Spiritually Guided Life Energy

Section to be reworked
I have moved the following section here so we can work on it and move it back to the main page when the two tags can be removed. We shouldn't have a tagged section as a permanent part of the article.

Please edit within the section and add your comments below in the 'Comments' subsection. Aquirata 15:36, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Criticism from Christian Churches and Groups
Orthodox Christian Churches (whether Eastern Rite or Latin Rite Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and some Reformation derived Protestant Christian Churches etc) identify Reiki as being occult and so therefore a demonic power coming from Satan. Most agree that Reiki is more akin to the occult than to medicine and is not the equivalent to the Christian charism of Laying on of hands. Christians who believed in general about the existence of the supernatural (or who had some experience with Reiki and it's power) would concede that Reiki does exist in a supernatural way and works in some degree to heal, but would object to it from the perspective that it is an occult practice and therefore derived from evil regardless of good intentions or a beneficial result.

With Reiki, as in most esoteric systems of belief, initiation into secret teachings, symbols, mantras and techniques are required. These initiation methods and their secrecy, as well as the conferring of supernatural powers (often for large amounts of money) is a hallmark of occult practice, and is similar to traditionally understood magical systems such as that of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Freemasonry, Satanism and Witchcraft (or Magic (paranormal) practices in general). The belief in summoning, controlling, manipulating or channeling an invisible energy through symbols based on pagan symbolism, is sufficient by Christian theological standards to call it occultism. Occult practice, is clearly condemned according to Christian practice and Faith. Some groups specifically speak against it (such as the Dominicans from the Catholic) Church.

Proposed version: Criticism from Christian Churches and Groups
Orthodox Christian Churches (whether Eastern Rite or Latin Rite Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and some Reformation derived Protestant Christian Churches etc) identify Reiki as being occult and so therefore a demonic power coming from Satan. Most church doctrines interpret practices like Reiki as more akin to the occult than to medicine and do not the equate Reiki to the Christian charism of Laying on of hands. Some Christians who believed in general about the existence of the supernatural (or who had some experience with Reiki and it's power) would concede that Reiki does exist in a supernatural way and works in some degree to heal, but would object to it from the perspective that it is an occult practice and therefore derived from evil regardless of good intentions or a beneficial result. There are however Christan groups who do equate Reiki to the same healing as practiced by Jesus and as such there are more and more Christian groups who are accepting of Reiki and even practice it (see http://www.christianreiki.com/).

Churches seem to believe that Reiki, as in some other esoteric systems of belief, involve initiation into secret teachings, symbols, mantras and techniques are required. These initiation methods and their secrecy, as well as the conferring of supernatural powers (often for large amounts of money) is a hallmark of occult practice, and is similar to traditionally understood magical systems such as that of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Freemasonry, Satanism and Witchcraft (or Magic (paranormal) practices in general). The belief in summoning, controlling, manipulating or channeling an invisible energy through symbols based on pagan symbolism, is sufficient by Christian theological standards to call it occultism. Occult practice, is clearly condemned according to Christian practice and Faith. Some groups specifically speak against it (such as the Dominicans from the Catholic) Church. In fact, the truth is that Reiki does not involve secret teachings but instead has teachings which are considered sacred by those who practice and teach it. As with any field of learning a student is not given all the information in one go but will receive further teachings as they progress through their learning levels. The use of Reiki symbols are merely as a tool to assist the student in focusing their intention on the required purpose of those symbols. In general, these symbols are Japanese in nature and bear no relation to paganism. Should anybody really wish to find out all the details of Reiki teachings, there are some people who have made these publicly available on the internet.


 * How does that sound? --213.38.92.242 10:34, 3 July 2006 (UTC) GC

Comments
Please identify the problems with the section that warranted the two tags. Aquirata 15:36, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me except for the lack of internal links and citations. Aquirata 15:59, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * How about adding..."Any search on the internet for 'Reiki Manuals', 'Reiki Symbols' or 'Reiki Teaching' will provide most of the varying information and techniques used by the different schools of Reiki.". There's no way to reasonably cite links for everything relating to Reiki.  (plus I haven't quite got the hang of this Wiki editor :) --213.38.92.242 09:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC) GC

The Italian article is much larger than the English - they seem to be just getting on with it, instead of these tiresome skeptic/placebo effect/etc circular arguments. Their Glossary article is huge! 62.231.39.150 15:50, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

endless circle of skepticism
you guys are hilarious!

couldn't you just put a big: warning, the following information hasn't been evaluated in scientific blah blah and is rejected by most blah blah

and then be done with it? Then let people get on with the rest of the friggin' article! Somebody above mentioned how great the italian wiki article is, because there aren't so many negative minded people trying to pull reiki down into nothingness. If reiki is personally offensive to someone, they should just not do it, and ignore wiki pages about it. It is a very minor movement, and I doubt it's going to take over the world any time soon.

Can we please get some positive-minded people on here to tell us what REIKI is, instead of all the skeptics telling us everything about what it is not? Most people are quite capable of deciding for themselves without having so much endless circular debate.

stop the madness please! —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Wwilson 1 (talk • contribs)


 * The problem is that all people, even practitioners among themselves apparently, don't agree what reiki is. It is demonstrably controversial, and so we have to report all notable views, pro, neutral and con. Because the Italian Wikipedia may have an incomplete article on the subject doesn't mean we have to. To call people that want to report critical things about reiki or any subject "negative" is a violation of Assume good faith at least, and isn't likely to persuade people to your POV in any event. --Fire Star 火星 19:58, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

It's too bad you take offence to the word negative. something that detracts from the purpose of the article would be negative, is this not a reasonable statement? The focus of the article, is to provide information about Reiki. Isn't it a GIVEN that only reiki practitioners believe in all the claims of Reiki?? The article shouldn't have to apologize for itself and be all semantical in every sentence (i.e., "allege" "claims that" "supposedly" all over the place)

Since Elvis is no longer alive, and wasn't while I have been alive, I could be skeptical that he even existed. I could go to the Elvis Wiki page and rewrite it "Elvis is CLAIMED to have been born in 19.., He purpotedly grew up..." I mean come on man! Why don't you put some GOOD FAITH in the readers, and appreciate the fact that the average person can decide for themselves what to believe without you coddling them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Wwilson 1 (talk • contribs)


 * I do take offence at being called "negative", because it is an accusation based on your subjective attitude. I don't call people things like that, instead, I hope that I explain the reasons, one point at a time, why I think the language in the article is necessary, and why hyperbole about reiki's wonderfulness is unacceptable, reasons that hopefully satisfy the requirements of Wikipedia policy better than "come on man!". If you will go through the archived discussion above, you will see that we have gone into great detail over the rationale for what we say. As for Elvis; eyewitnesses, US govt. records, articles, video and audio recordings, etc., and the ongoing tourist trappings at Graceland are all citable, verifiable evidence that Elvis existed and had a lucrative career. We don't say he was the best singer ever and was a living saint, no, we just report his record sales, his cultural impact and also talk about his well-known drug abuse and philandering. There is verfiable evidence that reiki us practised, there just isn't evidence that it is anything other than a New Age confidence scheme. Of course, such blatant scepticism on my part, actually calling it a "confidence scheme" in other words, doesn't belong in the article. That would be negative. Instead, we stick to blandly stating that the perceived effectiveness of reiki seems to be due to the repetitive assertions of its practitioners and the statistical artefact expected from the placebo effect. --Fire Star 火星 11:40, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I see the problem as having to do with undue weight given to skepticism. Reiki doesn't claim to be scientific. The effect of healing with hands has been documented through-out the ages. Reiki is not a New Age phenomenon at all, it is simply a modern variant of an age-old healing technique. Given all that, it would be sufficient to have a note saying that no scientific proof has been put forward on the effects. It is counterproductive to push the skeptic view any more than that as it will be viewed as a missionary attempt at trying to save the world from the big bad practitioners of Reiki. Aquirata 12:41, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


 * As for the big bad practitioners of Reiki, from the perspective of a professional martial artist, I consider them to much more realistically be the ineffectively feeble practitioners of Reiki myself... --Fire Star 火星 16:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Criticisms consist of a single sentence in the introduction and a few paragraphs at the end, detailing the criticisms from science, Christians and traditional Reiki practicioners of the modern wave of poorly trained faddists. Hardly undue weight. Jefffire 13:26, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Yo, Jeffire, what's up with you dude? you just stated that criticisms consist of a single sentence in the intro, and a few paragraphs at the end, yet you quite harshly mauled all the 'unskeptifying' I did. Here I was, all excited that the rest of the article would be left alone by the ultra-skeptics, yet you insist on having apologetic wording relentlessly included in every sentence. (claims to, is said to be, etc.) What a hippocrite you are. I can't imagine any scientific article being subjected to this level of 'language policing'. Why don't you apply your 'scientific skepticism' evenly to everything instead of bullying the poor reiki page? Also, why don't you start a new REIKI CRITICS page, and let it all out, so the rest of folks can get on with writing about reiki without fear of your censorship?? In response, please don't quote some wikipedia dogma at me, speak to me with an original sentence of your own thought about why you are doing what you are doing. I like speaking to people, not wikidoctrine worshipers--Wwilson 1 04:08, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, since this is Wikipedia, that is what you are going to get. It says right on every edit screen: If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it. There is no consensus to make this article a simple advertisement for reiki. If you want an uncritical view of reiki completely to your personal taste, you are going to have to start your own website. --Fire Star 火星 16:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

As for the big bad practitioners of Reiki, from the perspective of a professional martial artist, I consider them to much more realistically be the ineffectively feeble practitioners of Reiki myself... --Fire Star 火星 16:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

regarding this quote, I can see that Fire Star has projected his own ego's sense of being a "big bad martial artist" onto all reiki practitioners. Why not claim that shadow side for yourself Fire Star, and just admit that you are being a bully? I'm curious as to what your deeper reasons are, for being the self-proclaimed reiki police. Your behaviour seems irrational to me. If you are not into reiki, than why the constant attention to it? It's like a Buddhist constantly editing a Christianity wiki. --Wwilson 1 20:47, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You may believe anything you like about reiki or about myself, but there is no "shadow" to what I am doing here. I operate in the light, and will happily explain every action I take to any editor. Reiki is interesting to me, and will continue to be interesting to me, because it is a vocal part of a fringe of groups surrounding east Asian medical practises whose practitioners don't seem to like their activities being described objectively. Particularly, reiki offers promises of "mastery" and miraculous cures for big piles of money, yet never seems to be anything more than accidentally efficacious. I work extensively with the medical community, and for everything I do I can provide direct, demonstrable results and practical explanations for those results and how they are achieved. I know what I know and I know what I have had to go through to learn it. It has everything to do with years of discipline on my part and a systematic approach to the observation and balanced manipulation of everyday physical processes on the part of my teachers. And nothing whatever to do with waving my arms in secret patterns or channeling Japanese ghosts. Reiki says that if you pay enough money you will be master of something they can't tell you about until you spend the money. So, your arguments seem to consist of nothing more substantive than "come on man!" If my not being convinced of reiki's effectiveness by your arguments makes me a bully to you, I can only wish you the best. I'm not going away. --Fire Star 火星 04:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Likewise I am fascinated by east Asian traditional medicine and potential that (other) practices may hold. I am also fascinated by pseudosciences of all descriptions, and the psychology of those involved. Jefffire 12:23, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Fire Star you say "Particularly, reiki offers promises of "mastery" and miraculous cures for big piles of money...". I don't know who you got that from, but it just aint Reiki.  Sounds like you got it from someone who has done Reiki but still has not dealt with their own ego.  The use of "Master" as a title for someone who is able to attune others to Reiki is not Master in the sense of someone who demands undying respect and control over others.  Many Reiki Masters do not in fact like to use the term Master for themselves for this very reason, and instead use Japanese terms such Shinpiden (or other names) to indicate the stage that they have reached within Reiki without ego.


 * "And nothing whatever to do with waving my arms in secret patterns or channeling Japanese ghosts.". As previously mentioned, there's nothing secret about the symbols.  They are sacred, but easily available in books and on the internet. As for "Ghosts" hmmm, now that IS taking one specific translation of "Rei" to the extreme.  Reiki is not about channelling ghosts, but about channelling universal energy through our own energy body.  You must surely believe that our energy body exists, for even modern medical science knows that.


 * "Reiki says that if you pay enough money you will be master of something they can't tell you about until you spend the money.". A totally unfounded statement to make.  Again, this is not Reiki.  What do you want to know about Reiki? I'll tell you and it won't cost a penny/cent? --GC 213.38.92.242 13:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, thanks for the honesty Fire Star. Myself, I don't particularly like Reiki, as I've only encountered individuals who seem to want to take my money and give me 'attunements'. I don't believe in attunements. The only thing I believe is that the body uses its own energy to heal itself, and the job of any doctor or healer, is add to the pre-existing energy of the patient with their own. Whether that 'energy' comes in the form of simple care and attention to their well being, or the crude matter form of a 'pill', or energy passed through hands, to me it's ALL placebo effect, and it's ALL based on suggestion. It's all part of. Saying that western medicine is entirely responsible for healing in our world is like saying the addition of a few shingles to a roof keeps the whole house from falling down. There is a bigger picture at work, and I think Reiki represents that. No one would deny that it is the energy of our own cells and the activity of our immune system that heals us of disease, and not pills, they only facilitate. Some have a valid hypothesis that energy can be directly accessed and infused into cells directly, through the power of mind. We all know the studies of positive thinkers healing faster than negative thinkers. This is all very reasonable stuff. I know nothing about this 'grandmaster reiki master' stuff, I think it's BS myself, but the foundational theory of reiki is not only conceiveable, but quite reasonable as a hypothetical system of healing. About the money part. This is a very valid criticism. The most valid. No spiritual truth should be dependant on money exchanging hands. This is what makes mormonism, scientology, and certain reiki practitioners cultists. perhaps I would be better off serving the cause of 'ki' rather than reiki, as I believe that healing power is naturally available to all as a gift from the universe aka/God --Wwilson 1 16:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


 * No problem, thank you for your consideration. This article is just one of several I try to keep an eye on to prevent their becoming simply ads for their respective practises. I try to do the same at the pages for disciplines which I would recommend in the "real world" as well. For example, I have contributed to and continue to maintain the criticism sections at the Taijiquan and qigong articles for a few years now. While I don't support it, thinking it mostly wishful thinking, I don't really have anything against reiki, either. I'm perfectly happy with an objective description of their financial practises. If someone doesn't mind that and really wants to study reiki thinking the price is worth it, more power to them. Maybe they'll help someone some day. I guess I'm not comfortable calling them "masters" however, as I don't see evidence of anything that I would consider "mastery" of a subject like healing from them myself. If debate on this sort of subject interests you, you should look in on the imbroglio over at the Falun Gong complex of articles. --Fire Star 火星 19:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Wwilson, I totally agree that "No spiritual truth should be dependant on money exchanging hands.". Any reasonable Reiki practitioner will only charge for the time they give to people, as everybody needs money to live by. Obviously you will get the Reiki practitioners who are only doing it for the money and will try to charge people over the odds for Reiki treatments/attunements. I personally give Reiki treatments for free and only ask for money to cover the time I have given (and travelling expenses if appropriate). You say that you don't believe in attunements and that Reiki is all about the placebo effect, yet you talk about your belief that we all use our own energy to heal ourselves, and that healing power is naturally available to all as a gift from the universe. Yes we all have the ability to move energy about, and this is something that is widely used in martial arts, such as Tai Chi (taijiquan) and Chi Kung (qigong). Using the energy built up through these practices depletes the energy of the user as it is their own energy they are using, whereas a Reiki practitioner is channelling the energy from the universe through themselves to give it to the recipient so that their own body may heal itself. The attunement process is the use of energy by the Reiki Master to alter the students energy and bring them "in tune" with the energy of the universe so that they may channel it too. Some people are naturally in tune with universal energy, some practice to strengthen their natural connection (spiritual healers) through being trained in certain techniques, whilst others choose to receive an attunement to make this connection happen more easily. Think of it like tuning in a radio ;). The Grandmaster / Master stuff is all about tradition and peoples need for a mentor, but as with all things some people let it get to their head and use the title as a means of control and power.  These sorts of people are not practicing in the true nature of Reiki.  The original teachings of Reiki from Dr Usui did not include Grandmasters and Masters, just levels of progression on a spiritual path. --GC 213.38.92.242 12:34, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * "Using the energy built up through these practices depletes the energy of the user as it is their own energy they are using" Now reiki can generate more energy than martial artists? Do you actually say that to people you work on? That is pretty funny, and if you ever say it to the face of a good martial artist you may be asked to "prove" it... Martial artists use what they've developed through their training to protect themselves (and others) from physical attacks. I don't think reiki can do that. I don't know who you've been talking to, but there is no "depletion"; human potential is unlimited in this area, so we train our own potential through years of hard work, kung fu, using our own, honest, human energy. No ghosts. --Fire Star 火星 13:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh Fire Star, you make me laugh; you take everything so literally. There you go with your "Ghosts" again.  :).  Perhaps I wasn't clear in what I said.  I'm not talking about the physical energy that martial arts employs but I was merely mentioning the way that martial arts employs the shifting of the Chi energy in the body for balance and grounding (and throwing some pretty powerful punches etc.).  There is more to Martial Arts than merely training for self defence; there is also the honour, respect, lineage, and use of energy in a positive manner too.  Practitioners of things like Qigong and Tai Chi (not on the martial arts side) use the exercises to concentrate the energy and then may use that energy for healing purposes.  Dr Usui studied and was a great expert in a form of Qigong.  It was because the use of the energy for healing depeleted a persons own energy that he sought enlightenment to discover how to provide healing energy without depleting his own, and eventually he found this method by drawing on the energy of the universe.   Nowhere did I mean to say that Reiki "generates" more energy than in martial arts.  Reiki doesn't generate any energy, but is practice of channelling the universal energy.  The term "Ghosts" you are obviously taking from the Japanese word "Rei" meaning "Ghost" or "Spiritual".  Indeed it is true that in Japan the word Reiki is seen as something a bit "spooky" because of their belief system and because Spiritual tends to refer to the spirits of the dead.  However, that is a modern day interpretation and "spiritual" can also be interpreted as being "that which is unseen" or "of god" (if you happen to believe in God, which incidentally I don't, I'm an Atheist Reiki Practitioner).  If you're interested in energy work that is used for both self defence and for healing you may like to take a look at Yellow Bamboo (aka Bamboo Kuning) http://www.yellowbamboo.info/Teachings.htm (developed in Bali) that is able to knock a person over (and sometimes knock them out) from about 10 meters away.  I've had a go at building up the Yellow Bamboo energy (fire in the belly as they call it) and the energy build up was quite intense, but we were only being introduced to the system rather than actually putting the energy to any defensive or healing use.  It was definitely a worthwhile experience.  I hope this clarifies things for you a little.  Any more questions and I'll be happy to answer. --GC 213.38.92.242 08:21, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your friendly reply. You are correct that I am very literal, it is important to be so for sorting through these issues, IME. Yellow Bamboo, as with reiki, has their own unique take on energy issues that doesn't necessarily agree with many of the more orthodox styles. Then again, the orthodox styles don't necessarily agree with each other... --Fire Star 火星 13:22, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I am a martial artist: Shodan in GKR Karate. I have participated in three Usui Healing System Reiki Initiations. Being a part of a reiki circle, or experiencing a thorough whole body massage by a practitioner who also uses reiki is incredibly relaxing, nurturing, and helps release numerous toxins in the body and mind. There are many Reiki systems, traditional and non-traditional. Dr. Mikao Usui did not CLAIM to discover reiki... he re-discovered it from reading Sanskrit texts. There a remany stories. One of which is that Mikao Usui, and Japanese Christian Minister was the first to create the reiki lineage system. Anyway, I am no expert, I havent paid buckets loads of money to learn reiki, and get rid of the word CLAIMED from all wikipedia articles... Its just makes this reiki article look ludicrous. Maybe Wikipedia should have a sub-topic... 'Wikipedia: The Big Handbook of Science vs. Art vs. Religion vs. Skepticism.'

And in the opeining lines of the article ... "...It is believed by its adherents.."... Just replace this phrase with the word CLAIMED if there is a need. Whenever I see the word CLAIMED now in wikipedia... the flag warnings go up for me. In my mind it reveals that... someone who read this article didnt like the contents and has disdainfully added their POV.

Bah! I shouldnt be so sceptical about wikipedia! lol!Drakonicon 08:08, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem is, there is no way to prove the claims of reiki practitioners on Wikipedia, so we have to have qualifying language. This is true of every subject. Even our articles on the scientific method discuss perceived (see, a qualifier!) limitations and criticisms of that method. Myself, my opinion is that Usui was either a con man or insane, and reiki a feeble New Age attempt at legitimising Japanese sorcery, but you won't see me putting that in the article, either. That is just my opinion and has no place in the article. As well, you are of the opinion he rediscovered reiki using Sanskrit texts, but which ones? Do we still have them? What are their provenance? There is a burden of proof that has to be met before we can say definitively that "Usui rediscovered reiki using Sanskrit texts" in the article. Until we have verifiable evidence of his knowledge of Sanskrit, the texts he used, when he read them and his citable writings about how he interpolated Japanese characters from Sanskrit texts, we have to use qualifiers: "Some adherents say Usui rediscovered reiki using Sanskrit texts". And then we have to say which adherents, exactly, using citations of books, interviews and articles. --Fire Star 火星 13:38, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * "The problem is, there is no way to prove the claims of reiki practitioners on Wikipedia, so we have to have qualifying language. This is true of every subject. Even our articles on the scientific method discuss perceived (see, a qualifier!) limitations and criticisms of that method.".  You're absolutely right Fire Star. We've yet to have proof that electrons exist.  We've got plenty of scientific experiments that show effects which would suggest the presence of electrons, but they've yet to be seen by the naked eye.  Likewise... magnetism.  We can see the effects of magnetism, but I've yet to see what it actually is.  Reiki... I can see the effects it has on people but, currently, there is little scientific evidence to show what it is.  Perhaps I should go and change the entry on Magnetism from "Thus, magnetism is seen whenever electrically charged particles are in motion" to something like "Thus, the effects of magnetism are believed to exist by its adherents whenever, what is believed to be electically charged particles, are in motion", and also something similar for electrons.   Ah well, that's life. ;)  --GC 213.38.92.242 07:18, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Spamming
It appears user:Rekhaa Kale is spamming the article with a section on their personal varient on Reiki, including commercial links. Clearly undue weight, non-notable and verified only from personal websites (a geocites account for crying out loud). Just remove this if you see it. Jefffire 12:11, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the article should be protected from anonymous edits, as he is doing the same thing without logging in. Aquirata 17:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It isn't too bad, yet. We want to show a clear, sustained pattern of spamming for the admin who has to consider protecting the page. If it keeps up for another day or so, one of us should be able to submit a successful request at Requests for page protection per Aquirata's suggestion. --Fire Star 火星 19:15, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Post by 221.128.150.107
Some new methods are being tried to be added but the dear editor is deleting them again & again.

These are the methods popular in India and are taught since 1996.

Is it not necessary that others know about them?

How can any method get hit till it is allowed to be listed?

These methods are:

Vishitao Reiki, a method with 25 symbols that provides you an ability to do practically anything constructive in no time! and Kriya Reiki, a method that teaches you to heal others while healing yourself. Acu-Reiki, that shows a wonderful combination of acu-pressure and Reiki with proven miracles. and Chiti Reiki, a method with symbols that restore and reactivate various mind related functions in a very short time and that can work even by writing physically on the affected area of the patient. India being relatively primitive country as far as computerisation is concerned, these methods were not yet on line. Does this mean that the seekers have no right to put them on this site?

Who is to decide what is commercial and what is not? Spreading knowledge is not commercial. If some Master has made some achievements, letting the world know about it is not commercialisation. But when the entries about that master are taken as spam, it just shows prejudice! Remember, this master has also found out the original sanskrit mantras from which Dr Usui got his Reiki symbols. She has also Received special blessings Of Dr. Usui has regular astral communication with him. If the editior still feels that such informations have no place in Reiki section of wikipedia because this section is someone's privete property, no one can say anything!


 * The problem was wording and undue weight as far as I could see. Try condensing the information and presenting it in an encyclopedic manner. It would be a good idea to start discussion on it first here. Aquirata 10:57, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * There is also an issue of establishing the new practise's notability. We don't use Wikipedia to make something notable, generally, a subject has to be notable first, then it can stay in Wikipedia. --Fire Star 火星 12:04, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Líng
Here is a link to the unihan character and definitions for rei or líng: that should help with the translation issue. --Fire Star 火星 21:54, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * If you need to go to a dictionary to know what Rei means in the context of Reiki you are absolutely NOT qualified to write this article. Notwithstanding, there still isn't a dictionary definition anywhere that says REI is a disembodied ghost. Are you a troll or what? 58.179.183.145 00:46, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Here we go again. First off, if you would like a little info on how things are done here, please read WP:Civility, WP:Assume good faith and last but not least, WP:No personal attacks. I have been involved with this article for years. If you will look through this talk page archive, you will see that I have been accused of being both pro-reiki and anti-reiki by editors with various axes to grind. Just as I won't permit this article to become a simple advert for reiki, I haven't stood by and let it be criticised unfairly, either. As for my qualifications, I am a longtime Wikipedia administrator and in the real world a professional martial artist and neigong teacher to the medical community. I am thoroughly qualified to feel that reiki is a confidence scheme, relatively unknown in Japan, perpetrated on the western medical establishment by New Age shysters. As far as the article is concerned, my opinion of reiki doesn't matter, however. Whatever you believe the word means, you can say reiki means frying an egg if you want to, certainly a meaning of the word rei is some kind of ghostly spirit, and the link I provided (it isn't a dictionary) even shows that the character is used for words that mean "Holy Ghost" and "spectre". How much more disembodied do you want? --Fire Star 火星 03:21, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * P.S. Quite a few of your edits and the edit summaries describing them I agree with. Perhaps we can find language describing the contentious points that will satisfy both of our concerns? --Fire Star 火星 03:30, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

+++++


 * Why is Celtic Reiki, Reiki Tummo and Magic Reiki used in the article? Do they have some special identification that makes them a stand out derrivative of the Reiki experience? Celtic Reiki has been part of this article for quite some time. Will the editors justify why it continues to be placed in the article while other forms of Reiki are not discussed. The issue of commercialism applies to all programs. Having Celtic Reiki listed so prominently and continuously really does give that business free advertising (Iam sure they charge for their services- Have the editors checked?) and also gives the appearance of legitamacy. Seems to me that an unbiased approach would give equal time to all of the derrivative forms. Fairness would give Celtic Reiki and the others posted only limited exposure. Fair is fair.

+++


 * The scientific requirement for Reiki is very lame. How do you scientifically demonstrate that emotions exist?. Can you see them with a microscope? What are the chemical combinations? What is the mathematical formula for an emotion? Oh, I see, you can observe them. This is science? Well many people have a positive experience working with Reiki as well. You can observe the reactions of one receiving Reiki before and afterwards. A simple questionaire would be helpful. Perhaps data could be collected in this manner that shows a statistically significant result that Reiki is helpful and healing.


 * Hi anonymous. I invite you to include other forms of Reiki and give them equal time. Please make the positive edits you suggested to bring balance to the treatment. I have no idea why Celtic Reiki is given so much prominance. It doesn't seem right to me either. Be bold in editing. It's all saved in the article history so you can't really do any damage.
 * I agree the article leans too heavily on science. Reiki isn't a scientific field and so the science stuff should really be kept in it's own section. 58.178.238.236 02:31, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

++++


 * The theme of unintended consequences should be applied when addressing specific forms of Reiki that are actually for profit entities or focusing on the specific organization rather than educating readers that they exist. Like it or not what is applied in this article will be "Googled" and positioned in a place of prominence on search engines. So instead of putting Magic Reiki or Tummo Reiki (specific) the article would be more unbiased to describe the differences. This takes a little more effort but goes a long ways in making the article more informative.

Along this same line of reasoning, rules about what goes into the links section should be reviewed as many of the existing links are again not adding value in supporting the article but appear to be merely commercial hooks. One simple idea is to have link contributers put up web pages that are cleaned up in regards to advertising and focus on Reiki related material that is educational. These days it is quite simple to online publish by blog etc. So why the commercial links with little substative information?

Reiki and Transcendental Meditation
Has there been any instances of individuals practising both Reiki and Transcendental Meditation, and having some experiences which are unique in nature. I am sure each by itself is a unique experience. But a combo of both - does it enhance each other or does it open a new world?

== Removal of claim on cancer in mice There is an impressive claim that "Laying On of Hands" cured breast cancer in Mice, but the paper contains no reference to Reiki, and despite an appeal for funds in http://www.emergentmind.org/Research%20Leads/_resleads/00000027.htm there appears to be no follow-up study. Certainly the layers-on were not Reiki-trained so this claim appears to have no place in this article

what is the

 * WHAT IS THE POINT OF HAVING A PICTURE OF A HAND [NOT IN ACTIVE REIKI USE] AS THE VERRY FIST PIC ON THE ARTICLE? Smith Jones 04:07, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Reiki Magick
'Reiki Magick practitioners assert that one must attend a ritual of initiation and that one should be cleansed upon an altar of all the evil spirits and energies said to be invading their soul.'

Hi I don't feel I know enough to change it, but I have asked on Christopher Penczaks' website for a Reiki Magick practitioner to come and rephrase this comment about them. Reiki Magick is worth mentioning as one of the more currently prevalent non-traditional forms of reiki.

I really doubt this comment is how a Reiki Magick practitioner would put it though and it makes them sound a bit 'wrong.'

I suggest it be removed as there is no citation and it makes them come across as some kind of fundamentalists or is in a sense 'slanted'

'Reiki Magick practitioners liken the attunement process to the process of initiation in Wicca and other Western Magickal traditions. They tend to be practitioners of magick and incorporate reiki into their magickal work and other spiritual practices.'

Something like that?

I definitely suggest removing the existing comment above unless an official Reiki Magick source can be cited for it Merkinsmum 10:03, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

section suggestion : reiki and other modalities
I’m a newbie, so try to be patient please. Okay, I tried to add a link to my web site, which was removed forthwith. I understand, but I’d like to discuss being able to add it again because it discusses combining modalities. Here is what I propose: Would it be okay, if I/we create a section that would connect reiki to other things? I am working on connecting chakras with tarot – far fetched to some perhaps, but it represents the combining of therapies or modalities. I would like to be able to contribute in this area, and have a link of supporting articles to my web site. Would that be okay? Whitelighttarot 20:26, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Since you are the one making the connexions, it would unfortunately fall under the policy WP:OR. If you had some notable published sources concerning other people or groups who do that sort of thing (again, they should meet the criteria established at WP:Notability) then that would have a better chance of surviving. --Fire Star 火星 22:09, 20 October 2006 (UTC)