Talk:Rein Lang

Birthday bit
WTH is "beer restaurant" ? Never-ever heard such combined termin for these type of places. Perhaps it would be more sence to use "beercellar" or "pub" as they are usually called ?

Constitutional Assembly membership?
ISTR that Lang was one of the authors of the Constitution of 1992. Such would certainly be a high point in the life of any politician or lawyer, and if it can be sourced, merits notion in the article. Digwuren 20:00, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Adolf
I do appreciate very much Digwuren's effort to create page on this fringe play. I still think, however, that mention of Nazi flag being main decoration of the scene should be kept in Lang-related article, as it is the focal point of whole controversy.RJ CG 20:09, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Possibly, but you shouldn't fall for the spin, nor propagate it. The flag is not a "decoration", it's an integral part of the play.  Take a look at the author and first performer standing in front of the flag. Digwuren 20:42, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Nochnoy Dozor (advocacy group) needs to be briefed. They are not major, they have just been active recently.

I will definitely oppose your attempts to remove the artificiality from the article (have you actually read the sources?), as well as contextless flag claims. If you want the flag to be mentioned, put it into its proper context. Otherwise, it does not belong in this article any more than mentioning that Klenski and his minions ran for the parliament but didn't get a single seat. Digwuren 20:56, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Do you really think WP:NPOV requires you to put clear lies into articles if you find them appealing, merely because some yellow newspaper has found paper strong enough to not melt upon recieving them in printed form? Digwuren 21:32, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I added a quote of a review of the play into Adolf (drama). Furthermore, consider this: this play has been performed in Germany. German constitution prohibits any sort of Nazi glorification, to the point that the British TV sitcom 'Allo 'Allo! can't be shown in Germany because it depicts Nazis in humorous situations. If this play could be classified as such, shouldn't you be able to find articles reporting Pip Utton's arrest during a performance? Digwuren 21:54, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm happy with context the flag it is now, thanks to your effort.
 * Then, you must also see why I couldn't have accepted its original out-of-context experience? Digwuren 22:29, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Klensky and his group, do you think that Estonian citizenship (and suffrage) denied to half of Russophones has something to do with it?
 * You have earnt an insult for having attempted to present weird fantasies as fact. Unfortunately, I am too civil to actually present it to you.  Please think of a nasty thing, and then imagine I called you it. Digwuren 22:29, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I'm curious about your rationale to create article on Adolf the play and to move all Nazi-related stuff here, but to keep on briefing reader on Dozor's activities.
 * Ditto. Somebody not blinded by lingering Nazi ideas wouldn't make such a mistake you're making here. Digwuren 22:29, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Frankly speaking, I thought that it does not belong to Lang's article, since Dozor is in Wiki already. But, as I said on my talk page, if you want to diminish the seriousness of your statements by writing illiterate politically charged accusations, I should be the last one who opposes it. RJ CG 22:20, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * REIN LANG: Mis siis tegelikult toimus? Sander Säde  11:05, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

He refers to a review of the play in this article. Unfortunately, I was unable to find it in EPL's archive for September 22, 2005, and his blog's archive doesn't go back enough.
 * Addendum: the problem is only with the blog's indexing system. I have found the review; it is at . Digwuren 12:14, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

However, here's a translation of a relevant passage from the article. I'm not yet sure, how much of it is proper to be used in the article -- it's still rather stubical regarding his biography, and it would be inappropriate to allow such a quotation to dominate the layout.

I am convinced that even here in Estonia, there are too many of those who think like Hitler. Not to mention Russia. The antifascism of official Russia consists of mere heroisation of a military victory over Hitler-led Germany. Such mob-oriented oversimplification serves a certain purpose &mdash; to not think thoroughly about the nature and origins of Nazism. Because this could reveal the sad fact that today's Russia is interchangeably similar to Germany of the 1930s. And we can only hope, and pray to god, that there won't arise a Hitler-like charismatic leader, who would take crazed mob to a fight against Jews, Caucasian-looking people, neighbours, and finally, the whole world. The Republic of Estonia has condemned Nazi crimes and my birthday was attended by people who, without exception, despise fascism.

It is important to understand that 'Caucasian-looking people' refers to a Russian idiomatic classification of people of South Central Asian heritage, with a characteristic physiognomy and recogniseably darker skin than that of most Russians; it is a distinct classification from the common English usage of Caucasian race. The relevance of this mention is that, in absence of black people in Russia, the local racists, such as the skinhead groups of Moscow and Sankt Petersburg, have chosen to victimise those "Caucasian-looking people" as a readily available outgroup of clear visual distinction. I am not sure how to represent this distinction in the translation; the best ways I see involve adding some sort of editorial remark. Digwuren 11:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps, the most succinct way would be replacing the "Caucasian-looking people" in the quotation with "[dark-skinned] people" or "[dark-skinned immigrants]". Digwuren 12:01, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I suspect that wouldn't work, after all. A negatively inclined reader could easily suspect the rephrasing is done to cover up a racial slur.  Thus, my best bet is still to add an editorial comment. Digwuren 18:37, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * His review of "Adolf" is here, same as on his blog. Sander Säde  12:18, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed, it is. It was published on September 26, 2005, however.  I guess Mr. Lang made a mistake regarding the date. Digwuren 13:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Quote
Here's a quote copied from Adolf (drama):

Prevent Genocide International : It is a searing analysis of fascism, and the arguments Hitler used to justify genocide to educated, cultured, reasonable people like us, making them collectively responsible for the deepest, most enduring scar on the 20th century. Adolf is structured to lull us first into believing we are on the “right” side vis-a-vis Hitler. Once we are feeling comfortable, it unsettles us by worming its way into our minds to tease out prejudices we hold consciously or unconsciously against people of other religions, regions, caste, colour or sexual orientation, whose elimination by hook or by crook would assure us, we believe, of our utopias.

Digwuren 01:01, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Spin
Mikkalai may be mistaken about the content of the referred article of Postimees. The article is not a report of the supposed controversy; rather it is a report of the skewed reports in Russian media. Thus, the mention of spin is not a summary of the Russian-language article cited; it is a summary of Postimees, analysing the Regnum's article. Digwuren 00:42, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I see. Opinion added. But there is no reason to keep the misquite, because Estonian media has its own "spin": Russian text says: "a huge flag with swastika was used a decoration of the stage, Eesti Eskpress reports today", i.e., it was quoting Estonian sources. If it is a Russian misquote, you are free to point this out, as a confirmation of the Russian "spin". `'Mїkka 01:34, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It was referring to Eesti Ekspress, not citing it. It would seem most of the Russian media's spin was actually a fault of Nochnoy Dozor (advocacy group), who fed it distorted data.  Unfortunately, I can't source it in this case.  The Eesti Ekspress' article was very laconical, and only listed four main facts. Digwuren 09:57, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * So if The eesti Express did not say "spin", then the sentence with this word goes away. `'Mїkka 18:10, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You're being thick. Eesti Ekspress reported on the party.  Nochnoy Dozor run to Russian media with it.  Regnum did the spinjob, followed by others.  Postimees reported on Regnum et al's spin.
 * It's obvious that Eesti Ekspress couldn't report on the spin, because the spin only appeared after Eesti Ekspress' article. Digwuren 18:37, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You are mistakenly crediting Nochnoy Dozor for all the publicity around this case. rus.delfi.ee reported it independently of Dozor, quoting Express. Amid laughable campaign of arrests and deportations of Nashist kids wearing plasch-palatka capes by Estonian authorities, Russian media bit into "costumed ball in nazi-themed beer hall" story as trained Jack Russell into it's victim. Contrast was too startling to avoid.RJ CG 18:48, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

If no one is quoted as "spin", you cannot use this loaded generalizing term. The quoted REGNUM article carefully avoids any exaggeration. I have no doubt that some yellow press was happy to make noise, but again, calling it "spin" is your opinion, unless you quote someone. `'Mїkka 19:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Here's a translated quote from Kesknädal: And so it happened that he presented Russians a scandal for his birthday; a scandal that has by now travelled rather far from Tartu. A birthday party imbued with Hitler's associations sells well in both East and West. After all, it's not known that some European Union's member state's minister would have thought of decorating his birthday with imago of evil Adolf. But see, Estonians have once again outdone the western world!

And that's how Russian channels already make up stories of Estonia's possible expulsion from European Union and other, worse things. Media stresses that Lang's chosen solo play, that his guests watched in a beer cellar, characterises the führer not as a war criminal criminal [sic] but as a sympathy-deserving human being. It's being emphasised that the play is from old repertory of Vanemuine and therefore, specially elected by Lang. The scene presented on background of a great Nazi flag is a pre-death monologue of Adolf -- that's how Russian media describes the party in the Gunpowder Cellar. It's added that comments from the minister were unavailable.

(Alas, some of the wordplay and references are lost in translation.) Digwuren 19:14, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It reminds me that nobody has explicitly mentioned on this talk page that the pre-suicide monologue is not the whole play, but only its first act. RJ CG has, once again, chosen to repeat Russian media's spin as fact. Digwuren 19:22, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I requested the quotation about "spin" in Russian media. `'Mїkka 19:24, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * How about the headline of the EPL's article: "Vene meedia haaras Rein Langi sünnipäeva mõnuga hambusse"? Digwuren 19:31, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The article lists several russian media uncritically propagating news, kind of broken telephone. I don't see any particular "spin" described. Lang, as a politician, did a stupid thing IMO. Next time he will think better. BTW, please keep in mind that not everybody in English wikipedia reads Estonian. `'Mїkka 19:45, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The play had been planned on months in advance. If he had cancelled it, do you have any doubt Russian media would have been all about "Estonian minister of justice refuses to see an anti-fascist play!"? Digwuren 21:11, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The headline translates as "Russian media gleefully started spinning on topic of Lang's birthday party". There's another, less charitable translation involving the image of old women making up nasty rumours, but because I'm so civil, I won't present that one. Digwuren 20:33, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Some of the Russian media in question has also made assertions that Lang blocked the legislation regarding prohibition of occupation symbols. This is untrue; Lang initiated it. It fell through in a parliamentary commission that considered it too onerous for constitutional freedoms. I guess this should be mentioned in the article. Digwuren 20:44, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Digwuren's bad faith warning
Despite my numerous requests to provide any source but article of Lang himslef calling "Adolf" anti-fascist, he just reverts my edits with false accusations of vandalism. Digwuren, would you be a man and try to present your hollow lies and false accusations to arbitrage comission at last instead of peppering my talk page with warning and repeating resorting to name-calling? RJ CG 16:03, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Quotation of a review by Prevent Genocide International is provided above. And there are more in Adolf (drama). Digwuren 16:24, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Quotation of review does not contain word "anti-fascist". And statement "there are more in Adolf (drama)" is plain lie, as there are none in any English-language articles linked to page which contain word "anti-fascist". This is WP:OR on your side. I was right to assume that Korps!Estonia will intervene to cover it's member from 3RR punishment. I was also to assume that Digwuren obviously understand how false his hollow accusations of vandalism are, as he chose to call in Korps instead of standing behind his accusations. RJ CG 16:40, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Please stop this... It is getting ridiculous. A mockery of something is always against the thing it mocks. An intelligent person does not need everything spelled out to him. --Alexia Death 16:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

"The aim is to lay bare the evils of fascism: its flimsy justifications, its perverted utopias. In a time when political theatre is in the poorhouse, Adolf is a call to arms. It is educational, but also divisive: you can be guaranteed a healthy discussion in the pub afterwards, if not a healthy fistfight." Quote from BBC link. It spells ANTI-FACIST loud and clear...--Alexia Death 16:51, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The words "Separation of Church and State" appear nowhere in the United States Constitution. Guess how many constitutional scholars consider this a sufficient basis of not considering it a solidly established constitutional principle? Digwuren 16:54, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You forget that US Constitution has a number of amendments, including the one that addresses the issue.A power of American Constitution is that it is not cast in stone. `'Míkka 18:27, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You are being thick. But I repeat myself. Digwuren 19:37, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Temporary sources
is not a good source. When the minister's term will run out, this will likely have a biography of a new person. A temporary solution would be adding a remark of download date, but in long term, a more stable source will be necessary. Digwuren 15:43, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I sourced this to the fact that Rein Lang is a current minister of justice. And that should change anyways when he is not anymore. The second reference was accident. Suva 15:46, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

The followup controversy
A new one is brewing. Postimees today printed Langi nõunik toimetas ministri kohta käivat artiklit Wikipedias. The headline translates as Lang's advisor edited a Wikipedia article on the minister, and it details yesterday's events. Digwuren 19:36, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it is understandable, I always thought that the "Artificial Birthday Controversy" section was given too much weight compared to the rest of his short biography that it can be misleading and damaging to his reputation. I don't know what the libel laws are in the USA, I could be wrong but in Australia it may be sufficient to prove a person's reputation was damaged regardless of whether the underlying facts were true or not. Martintg 20:48, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Australian libel laws, developed after old English laws, are actually notoriously draconian. American laws are much more lenient.  For the record, so are Estonian laws (although it merits notion that Lang himself has pushed for harshening them).
 * As for the 'too much weight' problem -- yes, so it was. But I believe you can imagine how foul RJ CG and Mikkalai would have cried if this removal had attempted without the support of the OTRS ticket.
 * The uprising scandal, actually, is more about the behaviour of Gerog112, who is presumed by the journalist to work at the Ministry of Justice, than about the excessiveness. (Take a look at User talk:Gerog112 for a taste.) Digwuren 22:28, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Australian libel laws are indeed draconian. A recent high profile Australian High Court case Gutnick v Dow Jones regarding internet defamation established the precedent that Australian residents can sue US based companies running US based websites for defamation. So I am not surprised that Wikipedia is sensitive to this issue, hence the OSTR ticket. Martintg 23:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

In, Peeter Marvet (of Tehnokratt) has recruited Alexia Death to talk about the issue on radio this weekend. Presumably, the broadcast will also be available through Web. Digwuren 22:44, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Hopefully Alexia will have memorized core Wikipedia guidelines/rules both backward and forward by then ;) Sander Säde  09:26, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Its a radio show, so I can cheat a little *thinking what to put in notes* ;) What I hope most from this show is some new editors already aware how things work here... --Alexia Death 09:29, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is what I hope from this whole mess as well - some new Wikipedia editors with a basic understanding of both WP process and rules. Do call for more editors to join and participate - with explanation that if Lang's birthday controversy was too "prominent", then not deletion but expanding of the rest would have been a wise course... ;) Sander Säde  10:03, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ooooh, I always wanted to be on the radio :-p --Deskana (talk) 10:36, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Interview with Peeter Marvet in Kuku:  Sander Säde  10:16, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

And now, Eesti Päevaleht has an article:. Digwuren 11:36, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Minut, too -- a kind of Estonian version of Slashdot -- has a post:. Digwuren 13:35, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

And delfi.ee:. This one is a shortened version of the EPL article. Digwuren 17:13, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Strange manipulations by Mikkalai
Mikkalai has repeatedly, as RJ CG before him, attempted to remove the sourced classification of spin as spin, in violation of WP:SPADE. Furthermore, he has misclassified and rephrased the Prince Harry incident, in an attempt to create a false analogy, and claimed that this originated in the Russian media. This is incorrect; the original similarity (*without* this distortion) appears in the first (very laconic) article of Eesti Ekspress.
 * Then insert the correct phrasing and reference about prince. I saw it in Russian media, hence I quoted what I saw. I invented nothing. `'Míkka 17:53, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Consequently, I have reverted. I cite WP:BLP, too. Digwuren 17:49, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Adding "interesting", so it reads "interesting distortion", isn't WP:NPOV, as it's your opinion that it's interesting. I don't find it interesting. I find it a distortion. --Deskana (talk) 17:50, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Also "a critically acclaimed" sounds wrong. There used to be award winning, witch is a sensible and true statement.--Alexia Death 18:04, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ive put these changes in. hope this meets with your approval.--Alexia Death 18:10, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I can compromise to 'award-winning'. Digwuren 18:13, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * After some research I inserted a more specific term instead of "spin": wikipedia has the article artificial controversy. I hope this make you happy. `'Míkka 17:53, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Certainly not! These concepts do not replace each other.  While spin was the process, a manufactured controversy was the outcome.  Replacing concise 'spin' with something artificially long such as 'partook in generation' is not constructive, and I suspect, is only designed to avoid linking to the Wikipedia article on 'spin'. Digwuren 18:13, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I would dare to say the comparsion with prince harry is very unappropriate. This is an encyclopedia, not tabloid. Hey! Let's add "Prince Harry is nazi too!" to every WW2 related article in wikipedia? Suva 06:39, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

It merits notion that the original article of Eesti Ekspress contains at least one clearly verifiable factual mistake. It states that Vanemuine "last" played Adolf (drama) on autumn of 2006. In fact, its last scheduled play was on 4 April 2007. Digwuren 07:04, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Mikkalai is continuing his crusade. However, it seems he's missed out on a much more striking similarity between Mr. Lang and Mr. Hitler: they both had heads, with one nose, two eyes and two ears. I wonder why that is? Digwuren 14:32, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

"Artificial controversy"
Please stop this "artificial birthday" nonsense. Reword the heading, or, better still, quote reputable sources who find this controversy artificial. Because a different point of view is entirely possible. And I am NOT a member or even supporter of Rahvaliit. I support NPOV. AdaHeidelberg 09:52, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Birthday is not artificial. The controversy is, after all if was entirely a result of misrepresentation of facts. Digwurren has provided you with the explanation of the term. --Alexia Death 10:06, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Unjustified deletions
It turs out that the "articficial controversy" was started by Estonian media and only later was "spun" by Russian media. Some editors insist on deleting the corresonding referenced text. Please explain. `'Míkka 14:32, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You're mistakenly thinking that the controversy is "Lang watched an antifascist play. Prince Harry went to a birthday party wearing a Nazi armband."  This is emphatically not the case, but this is the essence of the Ekspress article.
 * The artificial controversy was born when Regnum spun the original report into "Lang watched a play with Hitler in it! There was a large Nazi flag!  When Prince Harry did that, outrages rose to the highest heavens!".
 * Now that the artificiality of the controversy is fully explained, but the incident's section in the article is essentially, a summary, citing this piece of the artificial controversy constitutes a violation of WP:UNDUE. Save such details for Rein Lang's Adolf incident. Digwuren 14:37, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This is irrelevant to my point. My point is that the "artificial controbersy" (note that I do not object this term) was started in Estonia, not in Russia, and this is an important point. `'Míkka 14:50, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * No controversy was claimed nor started by the Ekspress article. If by "started in Estonia", you mean to implicate the Nochnoy Dozor activists, go ahead, but don't forget to add reliable sources. Digwuren 16:17, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Please explain what was written in Ekspress. Russian newspapers refer to it. Please provide the original source, translated in English, if necessary. Rissan press wrote: "The newspaper  reminds that three years ago a scandal occurred in Europe after UK Prince Harry came to a birthday party dressed in Wehrmacht uniform with a swastika on his sleeve." Is the quote correct? What is the political affiliation of Ekspress? `'Míkka 16:33, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not a quote, but it's close. The Ekspress' artile dedicated exactly one sentence to the Prince Harry incident, and this, by and large, represents that sentence.  No claims of controversy; not even claims of similarity; 'reminded' is misleading summary.  In Ekspress' framing, it constituted an impassionate 'You might be interested in this possibly related story' remark.  (Such remarks commonly appear in Estonian news reports; in electronic news, though, they're rapidly overtaken by automatic keyword-based 'related story' suggestions.)  Regnum's story is reasonably faithful in *that* aspect, but by the ITAR-TASS' "aegis" story, this had "become" an important international precedent applying to Lang's choice of theatres.
 * Broken telephone at its best. Digwuren 18:02, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Since you apparently know this history better, I would take you to your own suggestion and write the Rein Lang birthday incident and replace the corresponding pieces in Rein Lang and Adolf (drama) with a link in the "See also" section, both to avoid unnecessary duplication and remove the undue weight. `'Míkka 18:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm tempted to, but I'll wait for the wikigate incident to wind down first. Digwuren 18:45, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, this is a proven way of dealing with such incidents: to move a controversy into a separate article, so that the related edit wars do not cteate an obstacle for editing the main article. `'Míkka 19:00, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Page protected
This page is hereby protected due to edit warring. Please discuss the matter below then contact me to request unprotection. --Deskana (banana) 23:28, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Discussion
Please unprotect article: you have no rights to do this. You are involved in editing. My disagreements with Dwiguren are already resolved, see talk. the new editor made new change. There is no unresolved conflict that warrants page protection. `'Míkka 00:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I apologise if I mistook the revert warring for a dispute that had not been resolved, and have unprotected as such. I dispute the fact that I was "involved in the dispute". I had no part in the addition/removal of the disputed sentence(s). True, I had helped to write the paragraph, but I've had no part in the actual sentence that was involved in the dispute. --Deskana (banana) 00:27, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I didnt say you were involved in dispute. The policy says it clearly: do not. Period. Protection is not matter life and death and may wait for "reuest for protection". Since you edited the article, you may be easily accused of having vested interest in the version protected. `'Míkka 00:34, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * There was a request for Deskana to do something. I had requested Deskana to come over and oversee your and Digwurens dispute on his talk. Also, accusing Deskana from protecting "that" form out of selfish interests is wrong. If he had reverted himself and then protected you could say that. He did not. He protected just the current version. Even more, his original edits were made out of need to fill an OTRS ticket, not out of any particular vested interest in the matter. He has no reason to have any bias. How about assume good faith?--Alexia Death 10:01, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The protection was requested mainly to keep away vandals because the article was mentioned in estonian media. Suva 17:00, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't one add something about the controversy (in Estonian newspapers) concerning Wikipedia's entry of Rein Lang (see links above)? This debate is a fact now, the users who started the campaign to 'defend' mr. Lang actually reminding me of the intriguing topic of the Internet brigades. Erik Jesse 16:47, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It should. That's a reason I collected the links above. Digwuren 17:18, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * One has to be careful about continually adding new material so that the section becomes bigger and bigger, until it is so huge that everyone will think the only notable thing that Mr. Lang has done in his life is to hold a birthday party. :) Martintg 21:18, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, his most notable skill is that of Saying Outrageous Things. When he was a talk radio host, it was a rather marketable skill; when he decided to convert his media career into a political career, it may have become a liability.  If you recall the Cyberattacks on Estonia 2007 incident, one of the first people to point his finger towards Russian high echelon was Lang, as a Minister of Justice, and many Estonians remained skeptical of this precisely because Lang's history, and waited for a separate confirmation (which, in this case, did arrive).
 * In any case, the Delfi Bill needs an article (by the way, recent news have Hans H. Luik's Ekspress Grupp having negotiated for buying the whole of Delfi in a leveraged takeover, so it might become more Lang-friendly in the future), and I would consider the Wikigate incident separate from the birthday incident. There are at least claims, if not strong evidence, that Wikigate was instigated by Lang's office, but not without the knowledge of Lang himself.  Furthermore, Kairioun, who has been confirmed as an advisor of the ministry, has publically denied knowing Gerog112's identity, which would imply that the latter could just as well be a rather mundane troll.  Due to Estonian newspapers generally moving to web a number of years ago, there are thousands and thousands of people who -- sometimes rather aggressively -- say and do weird things in Estonian-language web media, and sometimes these drip around to non-Estonian-language web. Digwuren 22:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

"The party featured a performance of the play /.../. In an additional note, Lang pointed out" - in addition to what? "Lang pointed out that this era was characterized by poverty" - what era? 195.80.96.210 13:33, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Lang invited guests to dress in style of 1930s Munich. RJ CG 13:53, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Splitting Russian accusations from Estonian response
I find it confusing that Russian position is presented through Estonian eyes. Accordingly, I split the Russian accusations (based on the report of an Estonian newspaper from Estonian response, therefore letting each side to speak for themselves. Also, comment about Nazi banner being an element of the play is necessary. Overwise it becomes completely unclear where all "Nazi flag" accusations are coming from. RJ CG 13:53, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Calls for resignation.
In it's present form article completely misses calls for Lang resignation made by Parliament fraction, although it mentions statement by informal group Nochnoy Dozor, which mostly include individals who are denied Estonian citizenship. This is as POV-ish as it comes. Unless some Estonian contributor will explain why one have to be here and another doesn't (I mean, except your zealous efforts to present this as attack by wile T...lad), in the next 24 hours, I'll restore reference to calls for Lang's resignation. RJ CG 13:06, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Whats the purpose if trying to add a completely irrelevant quote?
SO? --Alexia Death the Grey 15:02, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * What looks irrelevant for you may be pretty relevant for others. Velliste is as Estonian nationalist warhawk as they come, so I guess if it is allright to use political accusations in an article, it is allright to explain to a reader who is author of those statements. Problem is, anyone remotedly interested in region's affairs knows Zhirinovsky, for example, but Velliste is relatively unknown. BTW, could you comment why calls for Lang's resignation from Estonian parliament fraction should be ingored in the article but one from Dozor should be there? RJ CG 16:49, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That relevancy cannot be established sensibly, because its a POV matter. Right now it looks like you are inserting some random stuff to make a WP:POINT. You are free to put any quotes to Vellistes article. As to the whole Adolf thing I will not get into the that argument again.--Alexia Death the Grey 17:07, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * On the other hand, it's easy to establish ir-relevance by noting that there isn't any supposed "struggle to gain independence" for Velliste anymore, and hasn't been for 16 years. Or 13 years, if you count withdrawal of Russian army from Estonia as the starting point.  (By the way, who celebrated the anniversary yesterday?)
 * Anyway, to declare Mr. Velliste "warhawk" is beyond ridiculous. Even back in 1980s, his positions involved, for example, promoting the newly reanimated discipline of history, rather than proposing, say, an armed overthrow of the Soviet government, as one might think from RJ CG's remarks.  In context of severe Russification campaigns and a push for bilingual schools, the idea of national identity has a certain flavour, and it's quite different from the flavour of national identity ideas in 1930s' München -- the flavour that, apparently, RJ CG is so fond of.
 * By the way, Wikipedia doesn't appear to have an article on Elsa Gretškina. It should. Digwuren 10:56, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you for another childish personal attack regarding my apparent fondness toward national identity ideas in 1930s' München. I will wear it as a badge of honour. RJ CG 18:56, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * On the related note, is badmouthing one who has no way to asnwer just your personal lack of common civility or is it a trait you had been taught in school? RJ CG 18:59, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you notice your own behaviour sometimes? Like the last comment? Suva 19:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

RJ CG's lack of creativity
RJ CG has dozens of times attempted to claim that Adolf (drama) features a "pre-suicide monologue by Adolf Hitler". I find it fascinating that he's so many times parroted Russian propaganda sources instead of trying, say, to switch to claiming that it features "Adolf Hitler" -- which is just as accurate (that is to say, just as misleading). Something to meditate on ... Digwuren 13:53, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Message to admins.
My edits, , are part of one revert in a hopeless attempt to understand what is enraging other editors. RJ CG 20:44, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Irrelevant or inconvenient?
Please explain how badmouthing of Russian coverage as "spin" is relevant and official document of European parliament is not. It is for sure inconvenient for pushers of "vile Russia hounding honest and blameless Estonian" story, but I was under the impression that WP is supposed to be NPOV. MEP request is pretty Encyclopedic material, much more so than opinionated articles from Estonian media so often used as sources here. RJ CG 14:26, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I can find plenty of parties and whoever who found it inappropriate for Rein Lang to watch the drama. Even Estonian skinheads ironically complained that it's evil to watch anti-fascist drama. The drama has won several awards and is highly respected anti-fascist piece. It is notable that some people got into the spin of media portraying it fascist, but I don't think any list of people who got in the spin and people who actually have seen the play is necessary. As I said. The incident is throughly analyzed in this article and it doesn't need more balancing or unbalancing. Владимир И. Сува Чего? 14:41, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I think we should wait, if something comes from this. That particular Greek communist has a history of making Nazi accusations, see a list of his questions. As far as I can tell, by far most are baseless and have gone without any further notice. --  Sander Säde  15:18, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Pafilis note
I quote: "It should be pointed out that Rein Lang exhibited similar tendencies in the past, since he undertook to remove the antifascist monument of the Red Army soldier from the centre of Talinn; and he opposed demonstrations marking  the popular victory over fascism on 9 May 2007 , describing them as an attempted coup." So, Pafilis' POV is that the Soviets are anti-fascist heroes and that Estonia should celebrate its liberation (not occupation) by the Soviet Union. This is certainly suspiciously (!) identical to the official Russian line as opposed to expressing some non-POV EP concern. Therefore presenting with no additional context (implying it is some objective European Parliament action) is not in keeping with the actual content and it should remain deleted as completely anti-Estonian biased. It is irrelevant at best, again, remaining deleted. &mdash; Pēters J. Vecrumba 06:23, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

P.S. His denouncement of the Ukrainian Museum of the Occupation is classic pro-Soviet claptrap. There's nothing to develop here. (The Lang motion has been tabled, by the way.) &mdash; Pēters J. Vecrumba 06:25, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Russian press has a way of presenting fake hypothetical questions to politicians, and then performing contextoctomy on the results to make it sound like the politician had a particular POV. It works especially well if the politician in question is relatively remote from the actual issues, for this improves the chance of his not noticing the slanted question or the fakeness of the hypothetical question on time.  While I am not entirely familiar with Pafilis' general outlook on world politics, his supposed statement is sufficiently anomalous for me to consider it suspicious, unless it, and its relevance to Rein Lang, is backed up with considerably better evidence than we have right now.
 * Considering how much I hate baseless accusations, I of course have a source; alas, it's in Estonian: . Those who don't understand Estonian will have to do with another related yet distinct interesting incident: . 泥紅蓮凸凹箱 07:28, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


 * RJ CG's contention and edit (regarding reputable) is a classic case of practicing "reputable by association". By the same logic, Tatyana Zhdanok declaring the moon is made of cheese would be a declaration by the European Union that the only question remaining regarding the composition of the moon is whether it's Kolbasny or Poshehonsky cheese. &mdash; Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Artificial controversy?
According to Digwuren, "artificiality of this particular controversy is well-established by sources". I can't agree with this. In fact, I can see at least two different controversies here: 1) whether or not Lang expressed pro-Nazi sentiments by the choosing to celebrate his birthday in this manner and 2) whether or not it was responsible behaviour for a minister to enable an opportunity for Russian media to mention Estonia and Nazis in one sentence, right after the notorious bronze soldier incident. Apparently all references to this other side of the controversy (like Rahvaliit's calls for Lang's resignation) have been deleted from the article. I find this simply not right. This is an encyclopaedia, not information war. I find that the heading of the section should be just controversy and in the article there should be references to sources who find i artificial or not. -- 88.196.103.139 12:40, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Delfi bill
It was actually passed, although 800SE (http://web.riigikogu.ee/ems/plsql/motions.show?assembly=10&id=800&t=E) failed same text was re-introduced as 913SE (http://web.riigikogu.ee/ems/plsql/motions.show?assembly=10&id=913&t=E) and passed without much discussion. http://www.epl.ee/?artikkel=307863 spells out some real problems. As I participated in the process I'd be happy if somebody more neutral could correct the sub-section that appears to miss the point ... Peeter Marvet —Preceding comment was added at 22:47, 30 January 2008 (UTC)