Talk:Reinhard Heydrich/Archive 2

Numbers
"which laid out the plans for the extermination of 11,000,000 European Jews" is incorrect according to our own Holocaust article. 6 millions Jews murdered, 11 million Holocaust victims (including communists, homosexuals, and others). Thus, the anonymous editor was correct when changing the number. Rl 14:48, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Do you have a source? Talrias (t | e | c) 15:03, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I cited the source: Holocaust (besides the fact that those are the numbers most people learn at school). Do you have a better one? Are you confident enough to change the Holocaust article as well? Rl 15:05, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I actually agree that the 11 million figure is incorrect. 11 million was the total number anticipated for the FInal Solution.  6 million was the figure that actually died.  Now, Heydrich also killed non-Jews as well due to his policies.  Adding them in, if probably would be 11-12 million people, but only 6 million jews. -Husnock 16:20, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * By source, I mean an external source. I am not saying the current number is correct, I am saying that there is no way of verifying the number you are suggesting without a source. Talrias (t | e | c) 16:22, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * They had plans to exterminate all 11,000,000 European Jews. They only managed to kill 6,000,000 by the end of the war.  Thus the 11,000,000 figure is correct, as this article discusses the plans, not the actual outcome. See Wannsee conference. Jayjg (talk)  16:25, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I see. That makes sense. Is it possible to rephrase that part of the intro to make it less ambiguous? Maybe it's just me, but to me "the plans for the extermination" doesn't sound like they were only partially executed. It is just me, huh!? Ah well. :-) Rl 16:46, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * The Nazis had plans for a "Thousand Year Reich" as well. Those, too, did not come to fruition.  I don't think an article which mentioned Nazi plans for a Thousand Year Reich would mislead people into believing the Reich actually lasted 1000 years. Jayjg (talk)  17:07, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * It has been reported that over 15,000 Czechs were killed in reprisals.: this number isn't sourced and looks suspiciously high. The terror after R. H. death (and before) was targetted and selective (the two villages being exception). Specifically, approving the attentate (schvalování atentátu) was punishable with death and after few publicly announced executions people learned to keep quiet. Large part of executions were already imprisoned people (typically members of political and cultural elite). Pavel Vozenilek 13:41, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Btw, the section about his death has high overlap with other article and should be pruned down.

Heydrich's Death
I added a comment in connection with Heydrich's deathbed quotation of a line "from one of his father's operas, suggesting that this is much more likely to be a quoation from the Bhagavad Gita (ch. 18 v.61). The comment has been removed as "speculation. But the reference to it being from his father's opera is a secondary source. It would be interesting to see the actual German and the primary source of this attribution. It is apparently well established that Himmler himself regularly carried a pocket copy of the Gita around with him. (Even the Wikipedia article on Himmler refers to this.) and the Trimondi booklet on "Hitler, Budddha, Krishna" expressly states that "The Bhagavad Gita was read like a catechism for the SS." Certainly the SS interest in Eastern religious ideas is very well established. I would think therefore that, in the absence of a strong PRIMARY source indicating that the quotation is definitely from an opera, the idea that it perhaps came from the Gita is a little stronger than pure "speculation". Since the comment was made to Himmler himself, he is presumably the original source of the quotation. He would have been far more likely to note and commend a quotation to the "catechism" than to an opera! It makes considerably more sense (and significance!) in the circumstances. (I apologise if I have inserted these thought in the wrong place. I am a bit new to this system.) Sensantius (talk) 17:36, 8 August 2009 (UTC) Sensantius

I have reverted the implication in the article that Heydrich died from secret bioweapons implanted in his assassian's grenades. While I do not doubt the SOE probably did "doctor" certian weapons with gas/bio agents, there is very little evidence this is what caused Heydrich to die. For one, the Czech partisans who killed him made their own bombs when they arrived inCzecoslovakia and the only items the SOE provided were collapable sten guns and a radio. Secondly, Heydrich died of a massive lvier and spleen infection when the blast belw out his car seat and sent metal springs and chairs stuffing into his side. Maybe a line about there being a theroy that Heydrich's bomb might have been laced would be acceptable, but simply saying "years later is was discovered that his death was due to bioagents secretly implanted by the SOE" is very far fetched. -Husnock 17:31, 6 October 2005 (UTC)


 * There is no evidence to suggest biotoxin grenades were used here; therefore the article should deal with absolute facts - although references can be made to such theories- however misplaced. The fact that the assassination was planned to have been carried out by Gabchick using the Sten Gun seems to discount much of the the 'bio-grenade' theory- why go to all the trouble of such a weapon if a simple machine gun burst was going to be the primary tool to be used? In addition, a grenade (of whatever design) is a notoriously imprecise weapon; far surer to shoot Heydrich at close range ( as was intended) than rely on an indescriminate and inaccurate means of assassination.Harryurz 15:48, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * In the article:"Lina Heydrich later stated that she believed Heydrich had expected an early death, saying that she saw his frequent unnecessary risk-taking (such as his valiant adventures in his Luftwaffe Me 109) as an attempt to ensure that, should he die, his would be a dramatic death." Source? Lina Heydrich also said she suspected the Czech partisans had Nazi help. (in other words..that Heydrich was 'set-up'. I think she was quite right. Anyone here agree? oldcitycat 23:50, 6 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Lina Heydrich in her memoirs speaks about "expected early death", here I agree. Not in the second point: There is no evidence of Nazi help for the partizans. The Nazi conspiration is a rumour and probably comes from the apologizing memoirs of Walter Schellenberg, chief of Foreign Secret Service of the RSHA and assistant to Heydrich.--charlandes 15:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the death of the assassins, according to William Stevenson's "A Man Called Intrepid" (which draws heavily from previously classified British Intelligence documents), the assassins died when German soldiers stormed the church, removed the slab of rock concealing the tomb they were hiding in, and sprayed the inside of the tomb with machine gun fire, killing all inside. I believe this source is valid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by U2nyd (talk • contribs) 06:49, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Heydrich and Canaris' Abwehr
I read that Canaris, the head of the Abwehr that competed with the SD, was a personal friend of Heydrich and that Canaris' wife used her children to spy on Heydrich. It would be nice to have a source for this so that this interesting anecdote can go into the article. Andries 19:04, 6 October 2005 (UTC)


 * The Heydrich's and the Canaris' were two times neighbours and friends. Canaris himself is described as a 'difficult character', the marriage with Erika Waag was not lucky, the both daughters Eva (born 16. Dec. 1923 at Kiel) and Brigitte (b 16. Jan. 1926 Berlin) were mentally ill.
 * Heydrich and Canaris met first in the navy, their friendship stems from there. In 1934 when Heydrich moved to Berlin they lived close in flats in the same street without knowing from each other simply meeting during walk. In 1937 both couples moved to Schlachtensee (district of Berlin) where they were neighbours again by chance.
 * It is true one of the girls, 13 at this time, was found in Heydrich's room raking up a drawer of his writing desk. Unexpectedly Heydrich came back and said: "Do not do that". No more, as everyone knew that the girl was not normal.
 * A servant of Canaris named "Mohamed" from Arabia was once found persecuting Reinhard Heydrich. When Heydrich noticed that he called Canaris immediately on phone asking him "not to play with me childish games". Source: Lina Heydrich, Verheiratet mit einem Kriegsverbrecher, p. 62ff. Commentary by Werner Maser, p. 176f.
 * She also speculates about rumors Mrs. Canaris after 1945 had taken "gold" from the "Abwehr" for personal purpose to Spain but without any proof (p. 66).
 * There are much more anecdotes and better ones: How Reinhard Heydrich and Walter Schellenberg founded the spy brothel "Salon Kitty"; how Mrs. Heydrich sees the Wannsee conference after the war, how she was not persecuted and got a nice pension (salary like a prime minister!) from a Court in Schleswig Holstein in 1956, how she nourished old SS comrades in her inn... if you like I can contribute.--charlandes 13:32, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Interesting anecdotes, but they don't seem too relevant or necessary for the article. And about the Arab who was allegedly "persecuting" Heydrich. What exactly was this "persecution" ? The Gnome 21:08, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Mythology about RH's death
I had deleted section on myths (created after war) about un-natural causes of his death. While I never heard about "chair of Rabbi Loew" I read about similar event involing Czech crown jewels.

An easy-to-digest legend for obviously propaganda reason, created after the war, is neither important nor relevant. Wikipedia is not collection of quips and irrelevancies, I hope. Pavel Vozenilek 02:03, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Heydrich and Stalin's purge
The article states: He is believed to be the creator of the forged documents of Russian correspondence with the German high command that sparked the Great Purge.

I believe this has been proved a tall tale spun by a mid-ranking German intelligence officer post-war to impress his western Allied interrogators. At least no serious historian I know of pays any credence to this allegation that Stalin's purges of Red Army officer corps was started by these German forgeries (if they ever esisted).

- Mikko H. 09:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article on the Great Purge states that the claim that the purge was instigated by Nazi forged documents is not supported by evidence.

"The claim is, however, unsupported by facts, since by the time the documents were supposedly created, two people from the eight in the Tukhachevsky group were already imprisoned, and, by the time, the document was said to reach Stalin, the purging process was already going. However the actual evidence introduced at trial was obtained from forced confessions.

I think this section needs to say that there is considerable doubt amongst historians as to whether Heydrich and the Nazis were responsible for instigating the purge

However, the former Czechoslovak Prime Minister, Benes, claimed in his post-war memoirs to have received the documents from his intelligence agencies and to have forwarded them to Stalin. That corresponds with the post-war claims made by former SD officers that Benes was used as the conduit for forged incriminating documents.Michael mills (talk) 03:20, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

This article used to be better
Now the part of Heydrich and the Nazi Party and the SD is missing. That part is, I believe, the most important part. Can somebody please go through the history and try to cherrypick from the old versions and combine them in a new version? Andries 20:53, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup
I've added the cleanup tag to this article as a significant amount of text is fairly ungrammatical; however, since I feel my own grammar isn't quite up to scratch I'd like someone else to take a look. I also think that some of the text isn't written in a terribly encyclopaedic manner, for example the 3rd paragraph of "Early life" seems terribly dramatic.

-- Chris  ( blather  •  contribs )  21:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm, seems it's gone again. Oh well, I'm not getting into a revert war over it.
 * -- Chris  ( blather  •  contribs ) [[Image:Flag of the United Kingdom (3-5).svg|20px]] 17:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Can the Bezeq International user who keeps changing "bizarre" to the incorrectly spelt "bizzare" kindly desist? Thanks. &mdash; Chris (blather • contribs •  e )  03:16, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Part "Early Life" (what I call "Calic-theory"). Please also clean up:

There is no doubt that Lina Mathilde von Osten (born 1911) was an enthusiastic follower of Hitler. When she was 16 (1927) she first time listened to a speech of Hitler. Heydrich met Lina in 1930, no contact to the Nazis is known before Lina came into his life. At that time (1930) he was desperate about his dismissal from the navy and looked for a job sending out lot of letters. He intended to become a sailor-teacher in Hamburg for 380 Reichsmark, but Lina recommended to send one letter to the NSDAP headquarters to Munich to Heinrich Himmler. A relative of her and staff member to Himmler, Karl von Eberstein was responsible for that contact. So Heydrich came uninvited to see Himmler at Munich on June 14th., 1931, performed the legendary twenty  minute test and was engaged for 180 Reichsmark to set up the 'Sicherheitsdienst'. So with that income he was able to marry Lina in December 1931. Source: Lina Heydrich's memoirs. For me it makes therefore no sense that Heydrich "was spying on the navy in the service of the Nazis" and I ask for correction.--charlandes 19:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Reichsprotektor
The one obvious gap in this account of Heydrich's life concerns his role as Reichsprotektor of Bohemia and Moravia. As an administrator he proved to be highly competent; and while there was terror there was also some attempt to win over the Czech workers, thus ensuring maximum armaments productivity. Amongst other things he introduced comprehensive social insurance policies previously lacking. There was more to Heydrich than Wansee and the Holocaust. White Guard 00:46, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Deputy Reichsprotektor, please. Str1977 (smile back) 22:57, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * We seem to be chasing each other all over the place! Technically you are correct; but he is generally just knows as Reichsprotektor.White Guard 23:01, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I admit that I saw this on your contributions list, but I have no intention of stalking you. The article should be accurate and not perpetuate popular misconception. On the talk page, we can all be lenient. Str1977 (smile back) 23:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * In full agreement, of course.White Guard 23:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Joachim Fest claims that Heydrich was murdered on England orders because he was becoming too popular with the Czech masses. I guess Fest's opinion is one we have to respect. 201.19.219.54 11:03, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Only Fest has put forward this claim, which, moreover, comes wholly unsupported. It is also somewhat illogical. One could accept that Heydrich would be popular among Nazi sympathizers among the Czechs - but "the masses"?! Czech nationalists would not sympathize with the Nazi cause, since it openly included the subjugation of Czechoslovakia to the Reich.The Gnome 19:33, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Self-hating part Jew
Some of the wording in the section on Heydrich's alleged Jewish history seems to me to be far too impassioned for encyclopedic purposes. I note that an attempt was made to edit it out, but its was edited back in shortly after. It really should be removed, having no bearing whatsoever on Heydrich's career.White Guard 00:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * If you are refering to my observation that attempts to identify a Jewish forebeare of Heydrich like similiar and far more absurd attempts to invent jewish forebearer for Adolf Hitler must be suspected as attempts to reduce the holocaust to the rampage of certain self-hating part-jews, then I must admit puzzlement as to what you regard as "too impassioned". it is necessary to bear in mind this suspicion when evaluating the credibility of the various claims that major antisemitic predators had Jewish forebearers, and it is relavent to Heydrich's career and life in so far as his supposed Jewish ancestry holds such relavence.


 * It would help if you signed your remarks. This is an issue over which you clearly feel strongly, and I have no wish to cause you any offence.  These theories, a la Hans Frank and others, may indeed be absurd and a form of latent anti-semitism; but the use here does not correspond properly to intellectual detachment, and could invite an equally emotive counter-response.  I am sorry but expressions like "far mor absurd" and "rampaging of self-hating part Jew" are dangerously out of place: it makes it read like a manifesto.White Guard 02:26, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

A "manifesto" no less. You truely and honestly feel you have not inflated the matter beyond all reason. Oh well, I beg the difference.


 * You are far too close to this issue, and have clearly not understood what I am trying to say to you. It's also obvious that English is not your native language; so I think there is little more to be gained by this exchange.  I have only one final point to make: stand back a little and try to think rationally.  Hysteria only breeds hysteria.  Best wishes.White Guard 22:26, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

From a peddler of internet manifestos I have further declined in this world into a hysteric, but can at least seek solace in having been favoured with your best wishes. I propose that you at least try to practice what you preach and cool down a touch to say 99 centigrade. As for my impoverished English. If I have failed to fully fathom "what you were trying to say" it may be that you have failed to convey it. While I am inclined to agree with you that this is fast becoming a poignantly pointless exchange, albeit for a reason opposite to yours, I wish to offer ypu one last piece of very friendly advice. Take greater care to insure that what you say is indeed what you mean to say and, that it would not be something that, having said it, you would not then be embaressed by it. best wishes all around and goodbye!

Biowarfare Angle
It would be worth noting that there have been reports over the years that the assassins' hand grenades were filled with anthrax or some other biowarfare agent at the British Porton Down facility which would, it is said, explain Heydrich's rapid deteroration after his seeming initial survival. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Basesurge (talk • contribs) 15:45, 10 January 2007 (UTC).

Slayer
Why does the reference to the Slayer song (SS-3) about Heydrich keep getting removed? It is both fact and relevant.


 * WTF is Slayer BTW??? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.19.208.184 (talk) 19:00, 28 February 2007 (UTC).


 * A thrash metal band. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.186.172.75 (talk) 20:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

If you don´t know THAT, give a quick look to their Wikipedia article. Where do you live? 195.46.254.85 13:37, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

A note on "Revisionism"
The term "revisionism" is used throughout this discussion pejoratively, if not as an outright despicable act. I recall such a use during the heated political debates of the 1960s amongst Left groups in Western Europe, particularly of Maoist tendencies. A "revisionist" to them was anyone who followed the official, Moscow line, and, hence, was in accord with the 1956 denunciation of Stalinist practices by Kruchev; i.e. a revisionist. (A "reformer" was mostly anyone who tended towards the purely parliamentarian, legitimate course of action, instead of the "armed class struggle". "Cosmopolitan deviationists" were the Trotskyites, and so on.) Well, since this is supposed to be an encyclopaedia, we, the contributors, should reclaim the term for what it truly is. Every serious researcher in matters of science, history, art and most human disciplines, should strive to learn more and seek more perspectives. And if this brings him to a different outlook on things, one based on new findings, revelations, etc, then, by all means, revising his ideas is not just an option but a duty to oneself. The Gnome 15:47, 4 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The debate about the veracity of the Holocaust (or the accuracy of the claims about it) has lowered even further the status of the terms "Revisionist". This is quite unfortunate -- for both freedom of ideas in general, and for historic research in particular. Imagine if a historian was to ignore the plethora of information contained in the recently opened Soviet archives! Imagine if we were ordered to protect "official History" from the revelations contained therein! In sum, one should be quite ready to revise one's ideas when justified for doing so; in fact, one should feel honor bound to do so. The Gnome 15:47, 4 August 2007 (UTC)


 * We are active contributors to an encyclopaedia which is constantly revised, and we accuse other contributors of being revisionist. I hope everyone can see how silly this is... The Gnome 15:47, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Interpol
There is no mention of Heydrich serving as the President of Interpol. I would add it myself but I really don't know much about it other then he was president from 1940-42. LCpl 15:51, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Reinhardt Heydrich speech excerpt.ogg
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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Heider Heydrich
Though reluctant of offending the privacy of the children (i.e., the son) of the person this article is about, Reinhard Heydrichs son Heider seems to be well alive.  here is an open brief from Dipl. Ing. Heider Heydrich, dated as of September 18. 2007: I therefore delete the remark that he "died in july 2007".--84.163.122.230 (talk) 03:47, 6 December 2007 (UTC)