Talk:Release dove

Release "Duvs"
These do NOT exist. Quit adding them back in. Just because you claim to have "invented" them does not mean that you can use a website meant for VERIFIED FACTS to market your ploy.

update
I'll be adding a lot of work to this article in coming days. The reason it's significant is because of the growing agreement among pigeon breeders that breeding goals for a ceremonial pigeon are significantly different from the breeding goals that brought us the white racing pigeon. The two breeds have diverged significantly in the past dozen years and several new clubs and associations have formed to support these new breeding goals. The need is made more obvious by the fact that Release Doves have quickly become the most popular type of pigeon yet the two largest pigeon associations do not support them. The AU is strictly a racing pigeon organization. The NPA is focused on show pigeons. So, like rollers and tipplers, this new breed of flying pigeon is generating new support groups. In the days to come, I'll be adding links to other articles to help differentiate the Release Dove from other breeds and to bring attention to the new support groups being formed, along with better definition on specific breeding goals and their objective measures.

March 10 edits
The edits made on March 10th were highly objectionable. They removed a lot of the original text for no apparent reason. They erased the original explanation of Utility/Performance/Fancy. They erased the true definition of Duv, and replaced it with their own private definition. They attempted to push their private interpretation for "reputable" commercial service. They attempted to present their opinions of Duvs as facts without ever having witnessed an actual Duv. So much original text was removed, the only choice was to "revert" to an earlier version. I attempted to identify and use some of the March 10th edits where they made sense. WynnSmith 10:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

You are not allowed to edit my comments. Unless you post your own comments and sign them, they will be removed. WynnSmith 04:01, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Who says that no one is allowed to edit your comments?

Try reading the policy for Wikipedia! Everyone is "allowed to" and in fact encouraged to edit the pages here!


 * People are allowed to post comments on talk pages related to improving the article. However, it is considered bad form to 'edit' (in the sense of changing) what other people have posted.  Please feel free to respond but do not change what others have said as it could cause other people to misinterpret what someone said.  Also, please sign your posts with ~ (four tildes), this will automaticallky be changed to a user name and a datestamp during save.  This is so we can tell when a post was made and tell which posts are by the same editor and understand the threading of the comments. RJFJR 13:53, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

RJFJR, Thank you for your help. There is much to do to improve this article, and I'm now recruiting some of the experts I know in this field to help. I particularly appreciate your edits and explanations. WynnSmith 17:05, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Utility Pigeons are bred for income
Most people who keep Release Doves do so for love of the bird. Nevertheless, they eventually begin releasing birds for friends and family until the day they realize how much they would enjoy operating such a business. It's the income aspect that qualifies Release Doves for the Utility categorization.

Racing homers come in a variety of colors, but only one form and station. However, as soon as a breeder begins making breeding decisions based on looks rather than flying performance, as is often practiced with Release Doves, then the strain becomes a Fancy variety.

The word Duv is often used in discussion groups by a number of people and is recognized by White Dove Release Associations such as the NWDRS.

WynnSmith 04:00, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

A pigeon "show" is just that. It's for fancy pigeons. Breeds such as the Show Homer are considered a fancy breed inspite of their flying origins due to the fact that breeding selection criteria is based on looks rather than performance.

State and County fairs are where you find the three divisions of domestic pigeons used to classify entries. Again, the classification depends on what selection criteria is used for breeding; performance, looks, or commercial use. WynnSmith 00:05, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * There is no such thing as a "Duv", this is a ridiculous acronym invented by the author of this thread for self-promotion. Rather than showing his expertise, it shows a severe lack of expertise - the author is simply not qualified. It is not a commonly used term in any aspect of the pigeon or dove fancy, let alone in the dove release industry. This terminology is a discredit to Wikipedia and should be removed. - Kevin Moore, Arizona Doves.

Kevin, it's important to avoid bias, and I wonder if your dad put you up to this considering his membership in the WDRP. Duv is not an acronym. It's a word several breeders use to name something new, just like wiki was a new name for a new thing. New things need new names and I don't believe "wiki" was invented for self-promotion. In the case of Duvs, it became obvious that breeding selections that used racing pigeon criteria didn't make sense if a better ceremonial release pigeon could be smaller, tamer, and circle more. I think it's wrong to display such a strong bias in favor of racing pigeons when the subject of this article is ceremonial release pigeons. With your knowledge, you could start a wiki article on racing pigeons, and then your opinions would find a better fit with the subject. BTW, you can press the tilde key four times to sign your name. WynnSmith 07:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

On keeping comments
I appreciate everyone's comments and contributions, but unless they contribute something useful to the discussion and sign their name, is it necessary to keep their comments? WynnSmith 17:15, 12 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Signatures are not required, but are strongly promoted. There are some cases where talk material can be deleted (such as vandalism, profanity, extremely off topic material) but in general just leave it there.  (It doesn't take up that much space in the database and it's better than having to explain why and what was removed).  (That being said, I just realized I haven't looked at the history to see what the comments were; I'll take a look.) RJFJR 18:05, 12 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I took a look at the history. Are we talking about "talk page" edits or "article page" edits?  The statement I made about keeping comments and not editing other's statements, applies to talk pages.  Material that is on the article page is liable to serious editing for format, information, tone, etc.  If there is dispute on material on the article page it should be discussed here on the talk to reach a consensus (rather than fighting over a version of wording on the article page with alternating edits and acrimony).


 * By the way, please add an edit summary before saving an edit, just so people can tell which edit is which in the history. RJFJR 18:15, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

We're talking about "talk page" edits. The comments I'm referring to added nothing to the discussion or knowledge of Release Doves. They were substantially just rants bordering on graffiti, from someone who obviously had a political agenda, but never signed their comments. In any event, I understand your point and will use strong discretion before removing such harangues. WynnSmith 00:33, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Move to Release dove?
Why is capitalization necessary? We don't capitalize animal names. - Wo o  ty   Woot?   contribs  23:06, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

First, it's important to note that the proper name of this breed is "Release Dove" and not "Release". I have a book of breeding standards from NPA and all breed names are capitalized. This seems correct since breed names are proper names like "Show Homer" and not just a common noun animal word like "pigeon". Although the NPA doesn't list recognized breeds on their website, a search on Google reveals lists on other websites that capitalize in the same manner as the NPA. I'm not aware of any other organizing authority that maintains breeding standards for pigeons, and so following the proper name capitilization example of NPA's breed names seems appropriate. WynnSmith 00:13, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Alright, got it. - Wo o  ty   Woot?   contribs  03:17, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Regards Seana Montgomery (talk) 15:43, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Wohoooo Seana Montgomery (talk) 16:07, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Types of White Doves and Pigeons
The white bird release segment is growing tremendously, and wikipedia provides an important opportunity to educate the public. It's very important that we say something about each the various types of birds used for white bird releases, including the White Ringneck doves which shouldn't be used at all.

Wooty, is there a reason we shouldn't be explaining "Release Doves" by normal methodologies such as "compare and contrast"? WynnSmith 01:17, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Comparing and contrasting is fine, but the sections seemed like simply a mini-explanation of other unrelated birds. - Wo o  ty   Woot?   contribs  03:15, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Dove Ceremonies
The most common type of Dove Ceremony is the memorial release, and therefore I restored that section which had been removed. However, the wedding release ceremony is also very popular and it makes sense to keep simplified descriptions of both types of ceremony. I don't understand why the most popular type of ceremony was removed. Can anyone clarify? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by WynnSmith (talk • contribs) 01:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC).
 * Information was removed if it was 1. uncited 2. original research. Since Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, we need reliable sources to verify that those types of releases actually take place. As it is now, nothing but the existence of the breed is verified. This is bad, and leaves it up for a AfD later. I have removed some sections but kept the ones most necessary to the article and with hope of citation with tags so someone can come along and find sources for them. - Wo  o  ty   Woot?   contribs  03:20, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

First, thanks for signing my comment. I agree we need citations, and I'm working on that. Today I spent my time on the "fastest growing" claim, but without success. For the past couple of years I've noticed Yahoo groups has been sprouting one new white pigeon forum after another, and each of them is growing faster than existing pigeon forums in membership. This year two different white bird forums hit the top ten in membership. But how do I cite that without having older numbers to compare to? I've noticed the AU has created a white release web page for their members, but how do I use that as a citation for "fastest growing"? It was just three years ago the NPA allowed show entries for "Release Doves". But again, I don't have numbers. The article is new. Eventually we'll gather the citations we need. WynnSmith 06:06, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, but the growing thing may be best left out - it may fall under original research. If a notable organization like the ones in the external links were to post "hey, these forums are growing faster, here's some stats", that's definitely fine. But the way sources on Wikipedia should work is that, say, 100 years from now, assuming we're not all dead, someone should be able to look at the article and say "hey, this is right, I can go dig up that (old, granted) book and find it." If no reliable source (100 years from now, will you be able to remember? ;)) can say that the forums grew quickly, it's not advisable to add it. I think a reasonable amount of time to find sources is OK, but usually the way editors deal with it is by removing things that aren't 100% necessary and slapping fact tags on whatever is. Since the article's so new, and I'm sure there's sources somewhere for this, I'll throw my immediatist towel in for the moment and not remove anything. Good luck. - Wo o  ty   Woot?   contribs  08:05, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Clarification of "DUVS"
I would like to see proof/clarification of what a DUV is, since so far, I'm unable to find any sources that prove such a species exists, other than on the author's own website.

According to Wiki's policy, original inventions are not allowed, as this is supposed to be a factual encylopedia.

From the policy: "Original inventions. If you invent the word frindle or a new type of dance move, it is not article material until a secondary source reports on it. Wikipedia is not for things made up in school one day! "

The author has failed to explain what type of pigeon a "duv" is .. or if it is indeed a 'new breed' that he has created. He says they are not homing pigeons, but does not explain what happens then to his birds when they are released somewhere other than home?

Perchace the author is using Wikipedia as a venue to sell his 'new invention' ? Release doves 13:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Your reaction is typical. Many people who judge the quality of their birds based on race results somehow feel threatened to learn that many people are breeding a new strain using selection criteria that is more appropriate for ceremonial release.  Smaller sizes, more tame, birds that circle rather than race away, show qualities that improve appearance, vocalization... and no doubt other traits are being used for breeding selections.  You merely need to search the pigeon discussion groups to discover strains such as the Coyote, Kentucky Diamonds, and several others.  I haven't given a name to my personal strain.  The word "Duv" is important to Release Dove breeders because there are two ends on the spectrum and a special ceremonial strain needs to be differentiated from both extremes.  At one end of the spectrum we find Ringneck doves and most people agree ringneck doves are different from "pigeons".  Therefore the word "duv" differentiates from "Ringneck Doves".  At the other end of the spectrum we find white racing pigeons which are large, less tame, difficult for brides to handle, and their loud wing slapping often spoils what would have been a good photograph as brides cower, and children startle.  However, white racing pigeons are used more often than any other strain for ceremonial release and it would be wrong to exclude them from the definition of "Release Dove".  Therefore it makes sense to include white racing pigeons in the definition of "Release Dove", and include ceremonial release strains in the definition of "duv".

WynnSmith 15:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry .. but WHY are you afraid to answer my question ? All I want to know is WHAT TYPE of pigeon do you use the term 'duv' for?

What do you base your information on when you claim that "duv" differentiates from "ringneck" ? Do you have any proof of this? Can you cite any sources for it? Can you cite ANYWHERE that 'duv' is used, other than the websites/forums that you have used it? You've still not proven "DUV" as an "encyclopedic content", "attributable to a reliable source", as Wikipedia states.

In my exprience, and the experience of many other people I know, white homers can be tamed, and are very easy to handle. It is in the breeding and training that this is achieved. You claim that they are all "racing" pigeons .. yet less than 20% of the people I know that release white HOMERS do any racing, or have any intention of doing so. Less than 5% of the many racing lofts I know have ANY white homers/racers .. most racing folk despise whites, and feel they are worthless in a race loft. While all racers are homers, not all homers are racers, as you seem to think.

For what it's worth, I judge the quality of my birds on their health, intelligence, calmness, and ability to return home reliably, not in any race time. If someone is breeding their birds for other qualities, great. My concern is that my birds are home and safe before dark, period.

I'm still waiting on information about what type of birds you have .. since you say they aren't homers. DO they return home after a release? Release doves 13:29, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I've answered your comments several times now. If your message above is honest and you're making breeding decisions to produce a better ceremonial release dove, then I wonder why we're having this debate.  It sounds like you agree that a ceremonial pigeon is less desirable for racing and a racing pigeon is less desirable for ceremonial release.


 * Your question is answered in the article if you read it. The term "Release Dove" applies to all white doves and pigeons that are 'used' for ceremonial release.  It's common usage.


 * The term "Duv" is also common usage. It applies to homing pigeons 'bred' for ceremonial release.  PLEASE!  All you have to do is Google "White Dove Release" and you'll find domain names that use the term "duv".  Those websites are not mine.  They belong to other people who use the term "duv".  It's common usage.


 * If you are serious about your study of genetics and breeding than you know why we don't "train" King pigeons for homing skills. You know why we don't "train" Jacobin pigeons for rolling contests.  Certain genetics give certain specimens traits that are more suitable for certain behaviors.  I'm glad your message above confesses the important role of "breeding".  Breeding refines genetics for homing, smaller sizes, release point circling, beauty traits, and others, including tameness.  These traits are good for ceremonial release but not for racing.


 * Concerning your rhetoric about the homing skills of my personal pigeons, now you're being silly. This isn't the appropriate forum for silly personal rhetoric.  However, since you posted the challenge and have a high awareness of me and my birds, I know that you already know that I always single toss except for ceremonial releases and flyoff rankings.  I've never had a "smash" release and so it's obvious that my Release Duvs are better homers than some racing pigeons.  As a pigeon breeder you already know that you can't breed birds that were released and didn't come home.  It's time to quit this silly rhetorical debate.

WynnSmith 15:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Editors need to maintain NPOV. Wikipedia is not a venue for publishing, publicizing or promoting original research in any way. Wynns views on his Release "Duvs" are his own. The article Release Dove should be kept free of controversial terminology if possible. The vast majority of white release pigeons will be homing pigeons simply because once released breeders want their charges returning to them. Individual breeders will no doubt select for qualities most usefull to them in operating their dove release businesses. Sting_au | Talk 12:10, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

New Pope
Is this the breed of pigeon that they release when a new Pope is selected? Peter Napkin Dance Party (talk) 21:19, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

SERIOUS ERROR
The species is Columba livia, and the common name has not be "rock dove" for a very long time. The common name is "rock pigeon". ALL rock pigeons are homers; there is some evidence that selective breeding can enhance this, but it is open to question. Homing pigeons used for racing, e.g., commonly are mated, and the return-to-home element is enhanced by return-to-mate. This article is based on a whole lot of serious misconceptions and misinformation, and should be purged. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.242.72.221 (talk) 23:31, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi there! This article is about any breeds or species used as release doves. I can't find any passage here that claims that only certain breeds of C. livia have the homing ability, to which you might be referring. The homing ability of the species is covered in greater detail in homing pigeon. Also, you're right that this article primarily concerns C. livia. The International Ornithologists Union assigned "Rock Dove" as the English common name for this species in 2011 ("Rock Pigeon" being too ambiguous, as it also refers to the genus Petrophassa and even to Columba guinea). Ibadibam (talk) 23:10, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:52, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Release Dove attacked at Vatican by seagull.jpg