Talk:Relief of Ladysmith

Renaming of article?
Many historians refer to this series of engagements as the "Battle of Tugela Heights" rather than "The Relief of Ladysmith". Would it not be appropriate to change the title of this article accordingly? Alternativly, the contents of this page should be moved to a new page entitled "Battle of Tugela Heights" and this page contain a summary of the four major battles that were part of the Relief of Ladysmith: Colenso, Spioenkop, Vaalkrans and Tugela Heights showing how the four were inter-related. (M Vlietstra)

This has been done. Martinvl (talk) 21:16, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

WP:SAFRICA assessment
Assessed article as C-Class. It's not far off B-Class; what I suggest is paying attention to citations (in particular: more inline citations, and more than one reliable source for inline citations). Ron2K (talk) 14:09, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Nomination withdrawn. RL0919 (talk) 01:08, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Relief of Ladysmith → Battle of the Tugela Heights — Ladysmith was besieged during the Boer War by the Boers in 1899 - 1900. The British made four attempts to break the siege - the Battle of Colenso, the Battle of Spion Kop, the Battle of Vaal Krantz and the Battle of the Tugela Heights. In the first three battles, the British failed to break the siege, but did so after the last battle. None of these battles, although related to the siege, took place in the immediate vicinity of Ladysmith - they took place between 15 and 30 kilometres away from the town.

Apart from the last paragraph, this article deals with the last of these battles rather than the actual relief itself.

There is controversy as to whether one should use the older name Tugela Heights or the more modern name Thukela Heights. I have chosen the former as it is consistent with the spelling used in the titles of the other battles. (Nowadays Spion Kop is written Spioen Kop and Vaal Krantz is written Vaal Kranz). - Martinvl (talk) 19:03, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The modern names of the topography make no difference unless the name of the battle has changed (in English, not Afrikaans); compare Battle of Stalingrad.


 * As for the request itself; this is a series of battles, a sub-campaign; again, compare Peninsula Campaign; Battle of Tugela Heights should redirect here until the battle proper - presumably the action on the 27th - gets its own article. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:44, 29 December 2009 (UTC)


 * There was no "battle proper" on the 27th as postulated by Septentrionalis. Once the British broke through the Boer lines at the Tugela Heights (some 15 km south of Ladysmith), the Boer forces retreated during the night giving the British no oppostion. I have two independent contemporary sources of this - one British Winston Churchill and the other Boer Deneys Reitz.  It has been suggested to me that once the move has been made, I rewrite the article Relief of Ladysmith as an overview using the Main Article feature for details of each of the battles.  The article will also describe the British troop build-up which was a crucial part of the sub-campaign. Martinvl (talk) 20:32, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * That rewrite would be entirely reasonable, and does not require a move. (Secondary sources are, in general, preferable to primary ones, like Churchill.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:29, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Unless I have any other feedback that dictates othewise, I will withdraw the move request and create a new page entitled Battle of the Tugela Heights, copy the text of the Relief of Ladysmith to it, rework it slightly and then rewrite the Relief of Ladysmith. BTW, do you regard Churchill as being a primary or a secondary source (your comment was not clear)? He wrote an eye-witness account of the events which he was covering for the Morning Post, but only published his book My Early Life thirty years later  Martinvl (talk) 22:50, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Memoirs are generally regarded as primary sources, even when published years later. There may be an exception when the memoirist has taken really exceptional care not to write out what he remembers, but did Churchill ever do that? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:29, 30 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Seems reasonable to have an overview article detailing all the relief efforts and a specific article for each battle, including the Battle of Tugela Heights. Please also update Book:Ladysmith and the Second Boer War once you have created the new article. --NJR_ZA (talk) 07:15, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Nick

The consensus appears is that this move request should be cancelled, that a new article entitled Battle of the Tugela Heights be created by the requestor and that the article Relief of Ladysmith be retained. Would an administrator please close this rename request so that the above can be done? Martinvl (talk) 15:37, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Article has been overhauled
As discussed above, the original article Relief of Ladysmith has been copied ot a new article Battle of the Tugela Heights and this article has become a summary of the entire campaign for the Relief of Ladysmith, (Battle of Colenso, Battle of Spion Kop, Battle of Vaal Krantz and linking material). Martinvl (talk) 21:16, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Letter from Ladysmith
Don't know if it's of any interest, but here's a letter from a chap who was there, as part of No. 1 Troop F squadron, South African Light Horse. Sam Wilson 05:27, 22 October 2017 (UTC)