Talk:Religion in the Netherlands

Untitled

 * Basically a good overview, but the page is using outdated (2004)data. Would be better if 2005 data would be used, 2005 data are easily accesible, refer to the Dutch wikipedia site "Godsdiensten in Nederland" and KASKI homepage www.kaski.ru.nl . KASKI is the offcial Dutch Roman Catholic Statistics agency. www.kerkbalans.nl provides annual overviews of the major christian churches. Note : One church, the Dutch Reformed Churches Calvinist (Gereformeerd) with 315900 memebers in 2004 or 1.9% of the Dutch population does not appear in any of the known overviews of Dutch churches. Can someone add the source of this data to this wikipage?
 * The page now mentions : "There are also large Catholic communities in Amsterdam, West Friesland and Twente". As per statistics of the Roman Cathic church, the number of catholics in the diocese Haarlem (that covers Amsterdam and West Friesland) is 17.1 % rather a small minority. Can someone provide some data on these "large" catholic communities?
 * User "C mon" added again a sentence stating Amsterdam and other regions being in majority catholic which was deleted again. The listed source "bosatlas" can be rather outdated as this was first published in 1877. Anyway, recent data (2005 figures) from the Roman Catholic church itself is quoting less than 20 percent in this region of the Netherlands to be catholic. Again, see above the request to support statements with data. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ruud64 (talk • contribs) 22:22, 5 February 2007 (UTC).


 * I've taken the liberty of rearranging Ruud64 points, as normal talk pages are ordered. To respond to your three questions.
 * The current scheme, based on the most recent SCP report (2007!) which includes data for 2004/05. I prefer this data over data over the data Ruud has proposed, because it has far more categories, to reflect the complexity of Dutch religions
 * Take your Bos Atlas I have the 51st edition (1997) flip to page 46 and look at the map: Zeeuws Vlaanderen, Twente and West Friesland all have catholic pluralities. I want to include these specifically, because it is a common misconception that there are no concentrations of catholics in other regions that Limburg and Brabant. I've updated these statements to reflect this fact.
 * I will drop Amsterdam, because my current (widely available) soruces, do not specifically reject or corroborate this statement.
 * Finally, dear Ruud, please take your time to get to know wikipedia rules, procedures and custums: we sign our edits to talk pages using four tildes ( ~ ); and we do not remove data but request sources by using -flags. C mon 23:46, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Plurality/majority
As per CBS data given for the year 2003 (see for example their statline religion by region overview), and confirmed by KASKI data there are no catholic majorities in the cities/ regions you keep on quoting. Please check current sources before removing and replacing by outdated 1997 data. Ruud64 23:02, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The article does not state anything about majorities, only about pluralities. (Note: a majority is absolute, above 50%, a plurality is relative, the largest group). In any data, 1997, 2003, Catholics form the largest religous group here. I've reverted back to the original, correct version. C mon 23:16, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

As per CBS data given for the year 2003 (see for example their statline religion by region overview), and confirmed by KASKI data there are no catholic majorities in the cities/ regions you keep on quoting. Please check current sources before removing and replacing by outdated 1997 data. Ruud64 23:02, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The article does not state anything about majorities, only about pluralities. (Note: a majority is absolute, above 50%, a plurality is relative, the largest group). In any data, 1997, 2003, Catholics form the largest religous group here. I've reverted back to the original, correct version. C mon 23:16, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Instead of just once again using the outdated figures from a 1997 publication (referring to data that is from exactly which year ?), you could have checked the www.cbs.nl site and  looked up the 2003 figures (statline) even though these more recent figures are also not fully up to date (% Catholics in the Netherlands in 2003 was 30.4 % , in 2005 dropped down to 29 %). As you seem not to inclined to do this, let me repeat the relevant part of CBS data here (unfortunately the pasting did not work) Regio Utrecht	Percentages	20,7% Catholics, 8,4 % Gereformeerd, 16,5 % Nederlands Hervormd, and 43,7% with no religious affiliation.

Kop van Noord-Holland	29,7 Catholics and 56,2 % with no religious affiliation.

Alkmaar en omgeving	25,2 Catholics and 55,4 % with no religious affiliation

Twente	        	33,9 Catholics and 34,0 % with no religious affiliation

Obvious from the data in 2003, the largest groups in these areas are not Catholics but the group with "no religious affiliation". In all areas with exception of Twente there is a large delta and clearly the group with no religious affiliation is relative, the largest group and not the Catholics. Considering the recent developments in Twente - closures of churches in 2004 -2007 in places like Hengelo, Oldenzaal and Almelo the gap between Catholics and no religious affiliation will have widened in this region as well. Some more data, as per a detailed research study for the situation in the city of Nijmegen itself with the title "Kerken kenteren in de Keizerstad' from the Raad van Kerken in Nijmegen and the Nijmeegse University, 2 out of 3 Nijmegenaars were not religious in the year 2001. From a press release of this study (text in Dutch which I hope you can read): Uit het onderzoek, met de titel 'Kerken kenteren in de Keizerstad', blijkt verder dat er tussen de wijken grote verschillen bestaan tussen de aantallen kerkleden. Hees is koploper: die wijk telt op iedere 100 bewoners 55 kerkleden. De Benedenstad, Altrade en Bottendaal tellen het minst aantal kerkleden: 18 van elke 100. Also from this study: Uit een onderzoek van de Raad van Kerken en de Nijmeegse universiteit, dat vandaag wordt gepresenteerd, blijkt dat tweederde van alle Nijmegenaren zich niet meer beschouwt als lid van een kerk, wat meer is dan het landelijk gemiddelde

Lastly to close the earlier discussion on "There are also large Catholic communities in Amsterdam", a few weeks ago the bisdom Haarlem PR chef published following information (again in Dutch)

In Amsterdam-Noord is het aantal katholieken de afgelopen tientallen jaren sterk teruggelopen, net als bijvoorbeeld in West en Oost; de Kommissie Kerkgebouwen Amsterdam, begin jaren tachtig in het leven geroepen, adviseerde in 1988 (!) om 18 van de 40 kerkgebouwen in het toenmalige dekenaat te sluiten. Van 180.000 katholiek gedoopten in 1950 in Amsterdam liep de RK Kerk terug naar 70.000 in 2000.

Wim Peeters Perschef bisdom Haarlem

So in the year 2000, there were a mere 70.000 Catholics in Amsterdam whereas Amsterdam has a population of nearly 1 million. I would not refer to this as a large group as you did.

Lastly for the city of Utrecht I was not able to retrieve any statistics of the number of Catholics in the city. However the number of church attendees in Utrecht has been mentioned to be around 2200. Source: rector N. Schnell van de priesteropleiding van het aartsbisdom Utrecht, interview Nederlands Dagblad January 2006 (in Dutch again)

....Maar door de daling van het kerkbezoek kunnen vieringen in veel minder kerkgebouwen worden gehouden, zegt Schnell. Hij noemt een recente telling op een zondagochtend in de stad Utrecht: er gingen 2200 mensen naar de kerk en er waren 42 vieringen. In zijn visie zou dat aantal kerkgangers beter in vier kerken passen en dan zijn twee priesters voor de hele stad genoeg...

Utrecht has a population of nearly 300.000, with a church attendance figure of 2.200 so a sunday church attendance of less than 1 %, that hardly indicates a catholic plurality either.

In case better data/ recent figures are available demonstrating the opposite from the above, I am interested to learn and find out about these. However continuing referring to a clearly outdated source published 10 years ago in 1997 does not suffice as a basis for the text in this WIKI page given the more recent available data demonstrating the invalidity of the disputed text.

And the another item for user C mon : Sometime ago I asked following question which you rearranged but never bothered to answer: One church, the Dutch Reformed Churches Calvinist (Gereformeerd) with 315900 memebers in 2004 or 1.9% of the Dutch population does not appear in any of the known overviews of Dutch churches. Can someone add the source of this data to this wikipage? Nobody answered so can this clearly incorrect statement finally be removed? Ruud64 20:36, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I've amended the text to address your concern it now reads that catholicism is the largest religious denomination in these regions. Why I think these mentionings of catholic regions above the river Rhine matters, is to give the reader an overview of where catholicism is, (and was historically!), a strong religion. (Note that your argument fails, these regions are also in plurality catholic, since catholicism is the largest religious denomination, "no religion" is not a religion!).
 * Dutch Reformed Churches refers to the Nederlands Gereformeerde Kerken, I got the data from nl.wikipedia, I mistakenly added a zero too much therefore overestimating their size. I have corrected this.
 * I hope that I have answered your questions to your satisfaction. C mon 21:36, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It appears that no-religion is a tag for anybody not being a member in any official church. However there are also many that left the churches, but are in some other faith groups. In the Netherlands those appeared to be 'Pentecostals'. 105.0.6.195 (talk) 10:27, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Catholic Mass Attendance
This citation only goes to the home page, could someone please get the page - preferably with a translation? JASpencer (talk) 21:22, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Hans Knippenberg; very different data in 2000
According to an article by Hans Knippenberg the percentage of Catholics in the Netherlands was in the year 2000, 17% and protestants 16%

I have not looked into details for the reasons and causes of these very different data, but the article is not NPOV at all. Andries (talk) 19:20, 19 April 2008 (UTC) Source: Knippenberg, Hans "The Changing Religious Landscape of Europe" edited by Knippenberg published by Het Spinhuis, Amsterdam 2005 ISBN 9055892483, page 92

Affiliation means being a member of an organization. Adherence means follower of a belief system or a set of beliefs. You can be an adherent of a movement without knowing it or even while sincerely convinced that you are not. In other words, affiliation and adherences are quite different concepts. Andries (talk) 19:40, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

LDS - Mormon
I suggest that the photo of the LDS temple be deleted. My reasoning is this: the LDS church has only 9,000 members in a society of 16 million people. Photographs are powerful; many readers skimming the article quickly (which are most "readers" on most topics; let's call them viewers) draw inferences from size of coverage (an entire paragraph with the same header font size as others) and the presence of photos.

LDS members are noteworthy for their proselytizing, which they are probably doing here on Wikipedia with aggressive displays.

This entry would benefit from more photos, and not less, but this one should go based on context.

Other opinions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mislilac21 (talk • contribs) 02:02, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Feel free to remvove the pic. I had already shortened the section about the LDS some time ago. I do not consider the absence or presence of a pic a big deal. Andries (talk) 07:43, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * On second thoughts you are right. Mentioning/linking may be okay, but even a short treatment is too long in this main article for a church with only 9000 members or adherents. Andries (talk) 13:34, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Catholic Church - mass attendance
Currently, there is the following sentence in the section about the Catholic Church:

Fewer than 200,000 people, or 1.2% of the Dutch population, attends Mass on a given Sunday, according to the Catholic University of Nijmegen Institute for Ecclesiastical Statistics (KASKI) in their 2007 annual statistical update of the Dutch Catholic province,[9]  I suppose this sentence refers to Catholic Masses. If that's the case it seems a bit strange to state the number of churchgoers as a fraction of the whole Dutch population (that is including atheists, agnostics, protestants, muslims ect). Usually such fractions refer to church members (which obviously makes much more sense). Gugganij (talk) 20:55, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Catholic decline
I think the Catholic decline does not take into accoutn the many unregistered Poles in the Netherlands who have come to the Netherlands since 2007. Because they are often unregistered this will not show in the official data. I do not have a reliable source that the catholic decline is exaggerated for this reason/cause. Andries (talk) 16:05, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Use of lower-case
many of the changes you've made today are not consistent with Wikipedia's manual of style as detailed here. Could you revert them or otherwise resore normal capitalisation? NebY (talk) 11:50, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Overall statistics and pie chart/second paragraph
As far as I can see we have no reference for the statistics used in the pie chart and second paragraph of the article (the reference at the end of the second paragraph is dated 2005 so obviously cannot be the source of 2010 data). The US State Department has "In a 2011 survey of Statistics Netherlands (CBS), 45 percent of the population declared no church affiliation, 28 percent self-identified as Roman Catholic, 18 percent as Protestant, 5 percent as Muslim, and 4 percent as “other,” including Hindu, Jewish, and Buddhist" which seems the latest and most reliable data that I'm aware of. I'm inclined to switch to that unless their is a better source.--Erp (talk) 03:03, 23 January 2015 (UTC)


 * The second pie chart and the demographic table were mixing data from Kaski with data from elsewhere and I think calculating non-affiliated from what was leftover. I managed to get the 2009 data straight from CBS (on the English side) which I added as "Statistics Netherlands which does regular surveys has for 2009, 27% Roman Catholic, 6% Protestant Church of the Netherlands, 8% Dutch Reformed, 3% Calvinist, 10% other denominations, and 44% no denomination".   This meshes fairly well with the State Department claim for what CBS stated in 2011 (and presumably the US State Dept. has someone who can read Dutch).  I'm not too sure about the new pie chart that has appeared; someone who can read Dutch should probably check the source. Perhaps we should also check with the Dutch Wikipedia sister article. --Erp (talk) 02:18, 18 April 2015 (UTC)


 * This publication from CBS (2012) may be useful. It is used in the Dutch wikipedia article.
 * "More than one quarter (27 percent) are Roman Catholics. Altogether, 18 percent are Protestants: 8 percent are Dutch Reformed, 4 percent are Calvinists and 6 percent belong to the Protestant Church in the Netherlands (PKN). Another 4 percent are Muslims and 6 percent belong to another religious denomination or philosophical creed." 46% percent defined themselves as not religious.
 * I would prefer to present only one pie chart with CBS data. JimRenge (talk) 07:56, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I have a 2013 CBS reference in the lead; however, I can't find in it explicit info on those who declared no religion or did not answer. I note the 2012 info also does not separate out explicit 'no religion' from 'did not answer'. I agree on the pie chart but wanted to have a firm reference first. --Erp (talk) 14:13, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
 * The current reference for the pie chart looks useful but I'm a bit baffled why the source split into Nederlands hervorm (Dutch Reformed Church, NHK), Gereformeer (Reformed Churches in the Netherlands, GKN), and Protestantse Kerk in Nederlan (Protestant Church in the Netherlands, PKN) given that all three merged in 2004.  However I don't read Dutch so someone who does should look at the source and figure out what is going on.--Erp (talk) 02:01, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Schmeets states: "Dit doet vermoeden dat een deel van de protestanten zich erniet van bewust is dat ze in feite tot de PKN behoren, of zich meer verbonden voelt met de gezindte waar se voor de fusie toe behoorden." Translation: This suggests that some of the Protestants themselves were not aware of the fact that they actually belong to the PKN, or feel more connected to the denomination which they belonged to before the merger.
 * 15,8% protestants might be better. JimRenge (talk) 08:56, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Membership table categories and figures
The cited work, ''Godsdienstige veranderingen in Nederland'', for the membership table in this article did not categorize by type (pp. 30–31). "Free Catholic Church in the Netherlands" is labeled in the table as a Free Catholic Church but, according to the Vrij-katholieke Kerk article, it is a Liberal Catholic Church and according to http://www.vkk.nl/internationale_sites.htm it links to other Liberal Catholic Churches. According to references in Free Catholic Church article, the Free Catholic Church is(was?) affiliated with the Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church. Religie in Nederland contains updated 2014 figures through Stichting Interkerkelijke Ledenadministratie that report that Vrij-Katholieke Kerk in Nederland has 440 members. The table contains figures that do not match the 2004 figures in the cited source and includes inadequately sourced figures from 2005 and 2006. –BoBoMisiu (talk) 19:56, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Recent edit warring
I have fully protected the article for 2 days to stop the current edit warring. Come to the talk page and work it out. --MelanieN (talk) 18:57, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
 * We have I guess two different sources. One is Bernts, Tom; Berghuijs, Joantine (2016). God in Nederland 1966-2015. Ten Have. ISBN 9789025905248.  And the other is the national statistics bureau, Schmeets, Hans (2014). De religieuze kaart van Nederland, 2010-2013 (PDF). Centraal Bureau voor de Statistiek. p. 4. Retrieved 23 April 2015.  A question would be how did Bernts/Berghuijs get his information?  Is the book a reliable source and has the information been reliably extracted from the book. --Erp (talk) 05:13, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

"Roman is needed to avoid confusion"
Regarding your edit, claiming that "the Old Catholic church also exists in this country, Roman is needed to avoid confusion." If you check Old Catholic Church of the Netherlands, it says it has 4,819 members, against 3,943,000 members of the Catholic Church in the Netherlands. Do you really think that ratio creates confusion to the ordinary reader about what is referred to by the Catholic Church in the Netherlands? Well, consensus for the title of the article says not. Now, reversely, for things pertaining to the Old Catholic Church, "Old" is a perfectly fine ambiguator. No confusion. A better argument for your case would be at hand, please. Chicbyaccident (talk) 14:53, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I note that many of the sources use Roman Catholic not Catholic and we should be wary of changing source usage. I also note that the Dutch Wikipedia uses "Rooms-Katholieke Kerk" as does at least some of the official church web pages in the Netherlands such as https://www.rkkerk.nl/.  "Catholic" is informal and possible cause of confusion which can be avoided by using "Roman Catholic".  Worldwide this is leaving aside that many Anglican  churches consider themselves part of the "Catholic church" as recited in the form of the Nicene Creed they use. Some lowercase "Catholic" some capitalize (and the Episcopal Church in the US seems to use both forms, see http://www.bcponline.org/; as does the Scottish Episcopal Church http://www.scotland.anglican.org/who-we-are/publications/liturgies/scottish-ordinal-1984/).  --Erp (talk) 01:54, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Regarding the data
Hi, I noticed that in the article is not even mentioned the surveys made by the Statistics Netherlands. They intervew about 90.000 people each year to make updated statistics about the religious situation of the Nettherlands. I think that this data should be also in the lede and in the pie chart, since it's very reliable. Here it is the link for the latest avaible sources: https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2016/51/helft-nederlanders-is-kerkelijk-of-religieus

For now, I will add it in the lede. ---FrankCesco26 (talk) 14:13, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

New line chart - December 2017
The new line chat does not show 2014 and 2015 data because the Template:Line chart does not support more than 25 x parametres. I suggest to remove from the line chart the mid-decade data (1975, 1985, 1995) and 2000, and then remove 2010, 2011, 2013 and 2014, leaving only 1970, 1980, 1990, 2002, 2012 and 2015. This would make space for the most recent data.--Wddan (talk) 18:19, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I think that would be better to show new CBS data for every two years, so 2010, 2012, 2014 and the upcoming 2016. --FrankCesco26 (talk) 20:03, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

==main card gerrymandering: You've analyzed the hyponyms of Christianity and you compare it with the hyponyms of non-religion (Atheism + Irreligion but here you made a second mistake by confuzing the hypernym non-religion with the hyponym Irreligion== The organization who created the statistics of the main card plays a filthy game. They believe or wish that is correct to analyze all Christians while merging all non-theists (atheists: conscious atheists + irreligious: religiously indifferent or simply people who don't practice any religion).

Politically filthy people usually pseudocorrect one mistake by introducing a major one. A true scum, claiming that he/she is a person of gentle intentions, would now merge all Christians as one, while maintaining all non-theists merged. The point is that the supergroup nontheists here is merged, and Islamists are part of the supergroup theists.

They compare the supergroup of nontheists (atheists + irreligious and erroneously dub all of them irreligious without to respect the analytical group naming) with hyponyms of the theistic supergroup.

Question

 * 1) Still atheists and irreligious people are so many. Why atheist statisticians are so politically filthy?
 * 2) Richard Dawkins used in the past many gerrymandering tricks by not respecting different nontheist opinions, simply to merge them and present a bigger number. Some Dawkinsostatisticians (militant atheists) pseudobelieve (claim to believe) that conscious atheism and irreligion (not to care about, not to have, not to practice, not to identify with any religion) are one and the same even if philosophically both views are important and that is recognized in separate articles in Wikipedia. These bastards believe that we are at war, and we must gather all non-theists in one hypergroup and but them in battle against all the separate hyponyms of religion to make them even weaker!

'''If you believe that atheists and irreligious people aren't philosophically different, then merge the Wikipedia articles Atheism and Irreligion as a hypergroup: Nontheism. (in Wikipedia they reverse the names Irreligion and Nontheism, but the merger of the main card here remains)'''

You might believe I'm a Dutch monarchy causator (= a Christian, because the only excuse we have about the causality of monarchy is some crap about that pig Jesus Christ).

All Dutch are equal! All opinions must be analyzed! You've no excuse that the nontheist hypergroup is a minor one and that we had to MERGE DIFFERENT PHILOSOPHIES!

15 February pie chart
The following is the right interpretation of the data from the source:


 * Rooms-katholiek (Roman Catholic): 23.7%
 * Nederlands hervormd (Dutch Reformed): 6.5%
 * Protestantse Kerk Nederland (Protestant Church of the Netherlands): 5.7%
 * Anders (other): 5.7%
 * Islam: 4.9%
 * Gereformeerde kerken (other Reformed churches): 3.3%

--Wddan (talk) 15:10, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind that the Dutch Reformed Church is non-existent, and so are the Reformed Churches in the Netherlands (Gereformeerde kerken). Both are now incoporated into the Protestant Church in the Netherlands. Someone who made these statistics was really high on pot or something and I question the reliability of these statistics.Ernio48 (talk) 18:33, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Those are data from Statistics Netherlands, not unreliable sources. The Dutch Reformed Church and the Reformed Churches are not "dead" but merged with the Protestant Church in the Netherlands. The statistical report in question treated the churches as separated, as they likely continue to have separate congregations. Indeed, summing the various % of Protestants the result is 15.5% which corresponds with the general Statistics Netherlands datum for Protestants. I can't find anywhere in the source the data you added: 9% for the PKN, and 5.7% for other Christians. --Wddan (talk) 22:04, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Explain why there are three different categories, one of them being the PKN? This makes no sense.Ernio48 (talk) 22:07, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
 * It represents PKN congregations which existed before the merger. In other words, the large PKN (15.5%) is composed of three groups of congregations: PKN proper from before the merger, Nederlands hervormd and Gereformeerde kerken.--Wddan (talk) 22:11, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
 * There was no PKN to speak of before 2004. So if 6.5% are congregations of the former Dutch Reformed Church that now belong to the PKN, 3.3% are congregations of the former Reformed Churches in the Netherlands that now belong to the PKN, what are these 5.7%? Lutherans? I don't think so. It is important to get the right interpretation of these statistics.Ernio48 (talk) 13:12, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I suspect self-identification. The groups may have merged but many people may still identify with the previous nomenclature and use it to identify themselves when asked.  I can point to the Religion in Scotland and  those who considered themselves Anglican (or belonging to an Anglican communion denomination) in the last census.  The majority listed themselves as Church of England even though that denomination does not exist in Scotland (the official Anglican denomination in Scotland is the Scottish Episcopal Church). --Erp (talk) 14:52, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Why not keeping all the Protestants together at 15.5% as it was before the latest edit?--Wddan (talk) 21:20, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
 * We need a fluent Dutch reader to see what the source says (or even the material behind the source). The 15.5% might well not include all Protestants.  For instance Baptists are probably under "others" as are Pentecostals and there are probably Reform and Lutheran splinters that aren't part of the main church which btw is why Protestantism in the Netherlands should not redirect to Protestant Church in the Netherlands.  It should either have its  own article or point back to the section on Protestantism in this article. --Erp (talk) 03:21, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
 * There was the same case with Protestantism in Germany, which used to redirect to Evangelical Church in Germany. It was fixed. Someone should make something like that for the Netherlands.Ernio48 (talk) 22:23, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

An explanation is given in the more detailed CBS report for 2014 (Schmeets, Hans; Mensvoort, Carly van (2015). Religieuze Betrokkenheid van Bevolkerungsgroepen 2010-2014, Centraalbureau foor de Statistiek, p.4). Google translate with minimal correction: "A quarter (24.4 percent) of the population in 2014 is Catholic. In total, 15.8 percent Protestant: 6.7 per cent says Dutch reformed and 3.4 per cent reformed, and 5.7 percent indicate that they belong to the PKN. This distribution is remarkable as the Reformed and Reformed churches - along with the Lutheran Church - in 2004 almost all have merged into the PKN. It should also be noted that the PKN in the period 2010-2014 virtually has remained stable. This suggests that some of the Protestants are not aware that they are in fact part of the PKN, or feel more connected to the denomination they belonged to before the merger." JimRenge (talk) 00:57, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm inclined to have the pie chart reflect the source and (a) note that this is self-identification not formal church membership reports; (b) display the stats for the 3 groups that now make up the PKN (but adjacent and in related shades) but note that legally they all belong to the same church, the PKN, since 2004. I'm a bit concerned about using "Protestant" as a direct translation of "Protestantse" as the word might have a more restricted meaning in Dutch than in English (for instance it might not include Baptists, Pentecostals, Quakers, Anglicans [though the last two are almost certainly too small to affect anything]). Also where does the stats for Other Christian and Other religions come from; the source only has 5.7% for other as far as I can see.  --Erp (talk) 15:09, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree. So, this version of mine would be the best rendition of the data.--Wddan (talk) 17:04, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
 * It might be, but additional notes are a must for this.Ernio48 (talk) 23:04, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I've put up a new version of the pie chart with notes. I also changed the caption to Religious identification to reflect that this is self-identification not a count of those on the membership rolls. --Erp (talk) 05:02, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Large scale vandalisme
Unfortunately there is some large scale vandalisme ongoing. Especially the numbers of the PKN are being inflated. I will correct this Grsd (talk) 22:21, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
 * just to add, in the PKN statistische jaarbrieven (annual statistical overview) several totals are listed for membership. Some include the category OVERIG. These are not to be used, in this category members living abroad are for example included. PKN membership as per PKN church definitions is to be calculated as the addition of the two categories belijdende leden en doopleden. Grsd (talk) 22:41, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Text (in Dutch) from the 2013 jaarbrief In tabel 1 onderscheiden we drie groepen: belijdende leden, doopleden en overigen. De voorheen gebruikte term ‘overige leden’ voor de derde categorie zullen we niet meer gebruiken. Het betreft hen die wel zijn opgenomen in de ledenadministratie maar geen belijdenis hebben gedaan en niet zijn gedoopt. Volgens de kerkorde zijn zij daarom geen lid van de kerk. Source: https://www.protestantsekerk.nl/download/CAwdEAwUUkNHWUM=&inline=0 ---Grsd (talk) 22:48, 30 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Just see the following articles: Dutch Reformed Church and Reformed Churches in the Netherlands. The key word in the first sentence in each article is was, because these denominations do not exist anymore. Leaving NHK and GKN in the statistics is just causing confusion.Ernio48 (talk) 21:13, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Other religion section
Hi, the source CBS lists as "Andere" the religious followers that aren't members of the Catholic Church, the PKN, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism and Hinduism so it clearly leaves only other Christian denominations, like the Eastern Orthodox Christians, other Protestants outside the PKN or Mormons and Jehova's Witnessess and as well members of minor and irrilevant religions. So the majority of this part is made up of Christians, including followers of minor religions. I'm seeking consensous because the problematic user Wddan always tries to make edit wars and I'd like to avoid it.

So the pie chart should be as the following: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Religion_in_the_Netherlands&oldid=836937036

As the main contributors to the article, Ernio48, Erp, JimRenge and Grsd I'd like to know your opinion. FrankCesco26 (talk) 14:37, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I think we need some clarification. My guess is the discussion is on the 4.5% and what the legend and/or notes should state. Currently the legend has "Other Christians and other minor religions" with a footnote stating "Including other Protestants that are not members of the Protestant Church in the Netherlands" but previous versions also had "Other religions/Christians", and "Other religions" with a footnote saying "Possibly including other Christian denominations".  I suggest two changes. First "geen" which is translated as Irreligious should probably be "none" (possibly linked to irreligious). Second "andere gezindte" should be translated as "other denomination".  This adheres closely to what the source uses (note "none" in this survey could well mean people who consider themselves religious but not affiliated with any denomination). The word "denomination" should be a clear hint that the 4.5% does include Christians who aren't affiliated with the other listed Christian denominations and a note can cite another source that describes some of the minor religions in the country (btw this includes Old Catholics who aren't exactly Protestant) or the reader may gather it from the religions/denominations discussed in the article that aren't in the pie chart.--Erp (talk) 15:47, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree with Erp. We should translate what the source says. JimRenge (talk) 16:33, 19 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Regarding the section, we should restore the precedent version of the pie with the right translation. Instead of other christians, it should be "other Christian denominations" and instead of "Irreligious", which is strictly legated to religious beliefs rather than religious affiliation, it should be "Unaffiliated". As for the demography of religions other than Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism, the dutch version of the article includes data for the Sikhism and for the Baha'i which respectively count 12.000 and 1.300 adherents, that is around the 0.08% of the total Dutch population as per the 2001: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religie_in_Nederland#Statistieken:_ledenregistratie . We have two options: remove the 0.1% from "other Christian denominations" and adding an other section for "other religions" or simply leaving them together with the other christians and specifying that there are other minor religions. FrankCesco26 (talk) 09:17, 20 April 2018 (UTC)


 * , actually, Schmeets (De Religieuze kaart) at p. 5 has andere gezindte, which means "other convictions". It is not clear whether they are Christian denominations or other non-Christian religions. If it had andere denominatie and the row was located just after those of the major Christian groups, it would have been clearer that it referred to Christian denominations.--Wddan (talk) 22:54, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
 * , so where do you think the Old Catholics, Baptists, Mennonites, and Mormons among others are? I'm dropping note b.  BTW the list of religions at the end of the article lists quite a few without any supporting evidence or a link to a relevant article. --Erp (talk) 04:57, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
 * They are obviously in that category, but I suspect they represent an extremely small %, so it is not for us to determine that they form the majority of that 4.6%. The current version, to me, is the best possible rendition of what the source says.--Wddan (talk) 14:51, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
 * , all of these religious groups are in the "Andere gezindte" section, and I've found this publication from the dutch article ( https://web.archive.org/web/20140103140527/https://www.wrr.nl/fileadmin/nl/publicaties/PDF-verkenningen/Geloven_in_het_publieke_domein.pdf ) referring to figures of the end of 2005 including data for the other christian denomination than Catholic Church and the Protestant Church of the Netherlands. At page 92 you can see a detailed table with every christian denominations. At the end of 2005 there were 782.000 other christians, representing the 4.8% out of a population of 16.350.000 of 2006. There source for both the Baha'i and the Sikh is a publication by Piet Bakker from 2002.FrankCesco26 (talk) 09:01, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
 * The CBS definition of "andere" or "overige gezindte" means "other", there is on the CBS website no subdivision available for the 2015 number in subcategories. Above listed WRR report is referring to numbers for 2005 not 2015 and also WRR did not (fully) comply with CBS definitions. A translation to "other" or something similar is fine by me. Adding a subdivision of this "other" category not based on the source is I think highly problematic. Grsd (talk) 12:54, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree, is is not for us to determine the subdivision of that 4.6%, especially on the base of largely outdated 2005 data.--Wddan (talk) 14:51, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Sample based om adult population
The currenly used pie-chart is clearly based on 18+ years / adult population only. See text in Dutch : De resultaten over religie zijn gebaseerd op de bevolking van 18 jaar of ouder. In totaal zijn gegevens beschikbaar van 606 duizend personen in de periode 2010–2015 (n=108 463 [2010]; 77 110 [2011]; 130 529 [2012]; 98 195 [2013]; 93 927 [2014]; 97 965 [2015]). De gegevens zijn verzameld met behulp van het internet, de telefoon en met huisbezoeken. I have once again corrected this bit. Grsd (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:38, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Nice, I'd like to know your opinion about the precedent section.FrankCesco26 (talk) 09:04, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I stopped reading after the words "problematic user", I am not interested in that kind of discussion. I have read more of it now. The English translation of andere is other. Grsd (talk)

Integrate section "tendencies" into "history"
In my opinion the section "tendencies" should be integrated in the section "history" since they are redundant, and both should be trimmed.--Wddan (talk) 15:05, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
 * No, they are unrelated. Tendencies section of course shows demographic tendencies, while history means the religion in the Netherlands in a socio-political and cultural background.FrankCesco26 (talk) 11:31, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Are muslims the largest religious group in Amsterdam?
Of course not: "Het christendom is onderverdeeld in vijf aparte stromingen, namelijk rooms-katholiek, protestants, Nederlands hervormd, gereformeerd en de in 2004 opgerichte Protestantse Kerk in Nederland. Bij elkaar opgeteld vormen ze een groter percentage van de Amsterdamse bevolking dan de islam. " Or in English: "Christianity is divided in 5 denominations, namely Roman-catholic, Protestant, Dutch reformed, Reformed and the 'Protestant church in the Netherlands', which was established in 2004. Combined they make up a larger percentage of the population of Amsterdam than muslims do." Parool, 22 december 2016 All muslims taken together in Amsterdam are just 0,1% larger than only the Catholics... And then you still have those other 4 Christian denominations.NeoRetro (talk) 17:24, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Religions in Amsterdam according to OIS: Christianity 17%, Islam 13%. According to CBS: Christianity 17, 2%, Islam 11,4% Republiek Allochtonie, 20 November 2017 NeoRetro (talk) 17:55, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Section move proposal
I propose moving relevant portions of this article to Irreligion in the Netherlands, particularly the relevant portions of the section Modern era: secularization, decline of Christianity, and growth of religious minorities. This article should provide a brief overview of the topic, while more specific detail should be moved. The subsection Humanism should also be moved, with this article retaining a brief summary. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:21, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

I've since made the listed changes. The main information was preserved while more specific details were moved to Irreligion in the Netherlands. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:27, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

You've merged all nontheists but you didn't merge all theists (I blame the Dutch statisticians)
nontheistic subgroups:
 * 1) metaphysical logicists = physicalists (atheists focusing on quantum foundations, neuroscience, human-like AI, = soulless personhood machines, chemical abiogenesis of life
 * 2) atheists = people focusing on debunking religion
 * 3) agnostics = open to both possibilities of a logical and an exological/supernatural universe
 * 4) religious indifferents/ apatheists (the term religious indifferent is hypernymic; an apatheist is an atheist)

People have unique identities. A metaphysical logicist (physicalist) is an atheist but they focus on affirmative impersonal logical foundations of what exists = of the substantial/ of substantiality. Typical atheist philosophy is antitheistic = debunking religion. Some people have the exact same view in the fundamental necessity of impersonal logic, but they don't necessarily have the same interests and goals in life; they have different interests. Metaphysical logicists = physicalists = metaphysical naturalists are affirmativists; focusing on logical explanations. Many people have overlapping views. Some Christians are scientists, but they reject the necesity of impersonal logical quantum foundations and don't understand that personhood is unrelated to the physical foundations, because it is yielded by a personhood-yielding computer which has spacetime as a prerequisite (the Landauer's principle is the conversion of lost information into heat, and the reversible computing isn't achievable; exologic/the supernatural isn't only unreachable but it cannot have specific attributes nor meet the axiomatic prerequisites for existence; foundational vagueness cannot yield something specific; and logical foundations would be common physics or some other logical physics). Partial overlapping views doesn't mean tautological metaphysical worldview.