Talk:Renée Vivien

Symbolist?
I think that the Symbolists would have been surprised to learn that Vivien was a Symbolist. She is not normally included as part of the movement.


 * Poems by Vivien were included in Bernard Delvaille's anthology La Poésie Symboliste. (ISBN 2221501616)  There may have been a strong element of "wannabee" in Vivien's verse, which is why I wrote that she "took to heart the mannerisms" of the school, and "claimed allegiance" to it.  -- Smerdis of Tlön 04:14, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I am not sure how reliable Delvaille's anthology is as a source of mainstream ideas about Symbolism. I saw the table of contents of the book which included some unusual choices of authors. I am getting a copy of the book and will see what he has to say before making a judgment. Vivien is usually associated with the Sapho 1900 group.

Birth and parents
In the meantime, it is worth noting that Vivien was born in London. Her mother was American and her father British.

American poet?
Born in England, to an American mother and a British father; grew up in both Long Island, London and France; spent significant amounts of time in all three countries; she wrote in French. Does that make her "an American poet who wrote in the French language"? Did she identify herself as a particular nationality? In the absence of choice by her to identify as one nationality or another, I would be inclined to call her an British/American/French poet (in whatever order) -- or even just "a poet who wrote in the French language". The rest of the article discusses her (complicated) national status enough; adding the adjective "American" is not only questionable but also redundant.

Quality
I think the article needs to be heavily rewritten. It's incoherent and unrealible. The sources are of a very low-quality, and are more often than not, cyclical in nature. There's a profusion of bizzare, unsubstantiated claims that are littered throughout. Anactoriaa (talk) 11:00, 8 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I think that you are correct about the low quality of the sources. I am about to add a number of sources in the next section. Please peruse those to which you have access & feel free to incorporate them into the article for its improvement. Peaceray (talk) 05:02, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Citations for the article
As has noted, there is a dearth of quality citations for this article. I have gathered a number of citations. Some will be available to all, some will be available at certain libraries, & some will limited access. I invite you to all to help in adding these citations to the article as appropriate.

Some citations will be available via the Wikipedia Library. If you are not already a member of the Wikipedia Library & you meet the requirements outlined at About the Wikipedia Library: Who can receive access?, then I urge you to join. Peaceray (talk) 05:03, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

A list of citations for Renée Vivien

 * Note: There is a brief chapter (pages 608–613) but Vivien is also mentioned throughout the book. See https://books.google.com/books?id=8dBWMz-FpZcC&pg=PA609&dq=Ren%C3%A9e+Vivien
 * (via the Wikipedia Library)
 * Note: There is a brief chapter (pages 608–613) but Vivien is also mentioned throughout the book. See https://books.google.com/books?id=8dBWMz-FpZcC&pg=PA609&dq=Ren%C3%A9e+Vivien
 * (via the Wikipedia Library)
 * Note: There is a brief chapter (pages 608–613) but Vivien is also mentioned throughout the book. See https://books.google.com/books?id=8dBWMz-FpZcC&pg=PA609&dq=Ren%C3%A9e+Vivien
 * (via the Wikipedia Library)
 * Note: There is a brief chapter (pages 608–613) but Vivien is also mentioned throughout the book. See https://books.google.com/books?id=8dBWMz-FpZcC&pg=PA609&dq=Ren%C3%A9e+Vivien
 * (via the Wikipedia Library)
 * (via the Wikipedia Library)
 * (via the Wikipedia Library)
 * (via the Wikipedia Library)
 * (via the Wikipedia Library)
 * (via the Wikipedia Library)
 * (via the Wikipedia Library)
 * (via the Wikipedia Library)

Natalie Barney's view of Vivien's portrayal in The Pure and the Impure
it's not just reportedly that she didn't like it, - in her piece The Colette I Have Known, she says Colette judges Renee in her profile without 'understanding or consideration.' 94.197.168.225 (talk) 19:38, 3 December 2022 (UTC)


 * she states that the profile shows Colette's dislike of Vivien. Judith Thurman, one of Colette's best biographers, says she didn't really like her, but did feel sympathetic to her because of her mental illness, the cause of much of her behaviour. 94.197.168.225 (talk) 19:39, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Colette did dedicate a piece to Vivien, Printemps de la Riviera, about a lesbian masked ball they attended with the courtesans Liane de Pougy, Carolina Otero and Renee's onetime lover Emilienne d'Alencon. 94.197.168.225 (talk) 19:41, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Barney also felt that Colette's negative view of Vivien's poetry was because she disliked most poetry. Judith Thurman states that Vivien's poems were out-of-fashion even when written (not that this necessarily means they were without merit) 94.197.168.225 (talk) 19:42, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Emilienne d'Alencon
Vivien also dated her 94.197.168.225 (talk) 19:39, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Olive Custance
Vivien also had an affair with her - related in A Woman appeared to me. Custance was also Barney's lover 94.197.168.225 (talk) 19:46, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Sacha Ricoy
Helene van Zuylen eventually dumped Renee for Sacha Ricoy, wife of the Brazilian ambassador Luis Ricoy, and daughter of the Russian-Jewish sculptor Mark Anotokovsky. 94.197.168.225 (talk) 19:47, 3 December 2022 (UTC)


 * see Lot's Wife : Lesbian Paris 94.197.168.225 (talk) 19:48, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Converting citations in the Further reading section to the Cite Book template
As per Citing sources, I am going to convert the citations in the Further reading section to Cite Book format to be consistent with the citation style in the rest of the article. Peaceray (talk) 15:05, 7 June 2024 (UTC)