Talk:Ren Gill/Archive 1

Ren article
I have been researching and writing an article about Ren Since late December 2022. I even started a draft. I have a lot of it already written and a lot of sources and a basic outline for the rest. if you don't mind. I was going to submit it for review when I was done but since you got the ball rolling I hope you don't mind if I put what I found here. I didn't move everything over because it starts to have space between events but I should have it done in the next week or so and I would love help with it. Kiwatts (talk) 04:33, 28 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I have to find other sources for the information Ren gives on the fundraising pages or a way to cite them without using the fundraising links.I may ask for an exception via the white list request board. .There are 3 fundraisers.  One isn't accepting donations any more so it has the best chance.     Kiwatts (talk) 05:13, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
 * It's almost 2 am and I need sleep. Please let me know what needs adjusting or additional sources.  I don't have a lot of time in the next two days but can address things after that. Kiwatts (talk) 06:45, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The content and the delivery of information within this article are excellent. Yes, revisions are needed but the foundation of this article is very good. I hope the author is able to stand by the article as it evolves. Ren Gill, with his illness and all odds against him, deserves a wonderful, glowing introduction to the world (like what I am seeing here in this article). In time, it seems likely he will be viewed as one of the great artists/poets of our time. Thank you. LisaGat (talk) 07:56, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You may be right, but Wikipedia is a lagging indicator of notability. Notability must be established before the article is written. Could you also, therefore, address my question below. We are looking for the 4 best sources about him. If those establish notability for an article, they will also serve as the basis for the information in it and we can get rid of the massive overcitation on on this page. We don't need more citations, we just need a few good ones. Thanks. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:00, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm sure Kiwatts will address the question of sources in time but I would just like to comment on notability as a YouTube reaction channel fan. The song "Hi Ren" started to gain attention shortly after its release in December-January and since then the YouTube reaction community has absolutely exploded with reactions to not only "Hi Ren" but with many popular reactors now regularly reacting to Ren's back catalogue as well. There are too many reactors to mention here but some of the most notable include Knox Hill (with over 900 000 subscribers), Stevie Knight, Alex Hefner, Cliff Beats and Justin Hawkins, frontman of The Darkness. All of them have been very impressed by Ren's artistry. I understand that Wikipedia prefers secondary written sources but in this day and age YouTube, TikTok and other video platforms have become very important, if not the main sources of information about new artists for a lot of people so I don't think the YouTube reaction community's response to Ren should be underestimated. Mackey79 (talk) 13:04, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh, and The Charismatic Voice, a channel with over a million subscribers just reacted to Hi Ren a day or two ago and was also amazed, urging her audience to watch and share Ren's video. Mackey79 (talk) 13:33, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Arguably the biggest YouTube reactor, NoLifeShaq just did a reaction to Hi Ren as well, and the song has kept climbing on Spotify's viral chart, currently at number 11 on the UK top 50. Mackey79 (talk) 06:32, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Now this is not an article about Ren so it probably won't count to notability but it highlights the importance of reaction videos in the world of YouTube and there is a specific mention about Hi Ren near the end of the article. https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/mar/17/justin-hawkins-rides-again-youtube-darkness Mackey79 (talk) 12:38, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * If they decide to make guidelines for Independent artists or update their current guidelines this article will definitely help. Articles about Ren and his impact on YouTube that met the secondary source criteria would be great then we might be able to write a line about it on his page and use the article as a citation. Wikipedia has a list of sources they consider reliable and unreliable.  I will try to find it again and post it here.  This way we can look up the sources and know if they will work.  If the source isn't on it we can always ask Sirfurboy.
 * The fact that the reaction community is obsessed with Ren right now may help him get more articles written about him. Even though the video views and reactors can't help with notably on Wikipedia since it isn't part of the criteria it might help if it gets press coverage.  I am hoping Ren will have more coverage when he releases the song from his new album March 29th  Kiwatts (talk) 21:56, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I found it! the link is below.  I also remember a page on Wikipedia that had box to type the name of the site your article is on and it would let you know if Wikipedia has an opinion about it.  I can look for that page too at some point
 * Reliable sources/Perennial sources Kiwatts (talk) 22:18, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The guardian article is a good source. Articles don't have to be specifically about the subject, as long as they cover the subject. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 22:50, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The article actually does mention Ren! About 2/3rds through the article.  It says
 * Several, like his recent Jeff Beck obituary, are serious or emotional. Hawkins finds the raw, confessional song Hi Ren by singer Ren – AKA Ren Gill, who has Lyme disease and was confined to his bed for several years – “the right side of challenging” and was thrilled to see comments “from nurses and people in mental health saying how helpful it is to get that perspective in a song”. He found the 1975’s brutally honest, self-analytical Part of the Band – featuring lines such as “So many cringes in the heroin binges / I was coming off the hinges, living on the fringes” – so moving he “cried on camera. But I just love it when something hits me like that.”"
 * It might be better to quote that article instead of the Boing Boing one since it is yellow on the reliable list.  That is the only source I can see that might have caused the citation template.  The Federalist was removed when they edited out a line.
 * If you see a source that we might want to find an alternative for let me know which. I think at least one non English source may work for several of the items that have citation.  Kiwatts (talk) 00:51, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * This is one article to consider added to the citation list.  It's a real magazine with named editors etc. https://www.shockmagazin.hu/cd-kritika/ren-hi-ren
 * Founding editor-in-chief: Valentin Szilvia (valentin (@) shockmagazin.hu)
 * Responsible editor: Ádám Draveczki-Ury (draveczki.adam (@) gmail.com)
 * A Shock! team:
 * Gábor Kiss (drkissgaborh (@) gmail.com)
 * Andor Nagy (nagyandor79 (@) gmail.com)
 * Zoltán Oravecz (zombizoli (@) gmail.com)
 * Vince Pálinkás (vincepalinkas (@) gmail.com)
 * Colleagues:
 * Bertli Zoli
 * Cseke Feri
 * Danev György
 * Balázs Koroknai
 * Polgár Tamás
 * Révész Béla
 * Szilvás Gergely
 * Webmaster:
 * Attila Mravi Kiwatts (talk) 00:57, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Ren has also written a book in 2017: https://www.amazon.com/Make-Money-Music-Without-Being/dp/1911064037 Mackey79 (talk) 08:57, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
 * He also supplied music for the 2014 film called White Rose under the pseudo name Ren Penyo according to the White Rose Filim facebook page
 * https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=537930866316161&id=536423313133583&paipv=0&eav=AfZZrn7aQjLEPIRbpU_D_ryOYXxwzjFqDuxyzWHEPHQh1rry2b0l9zHezCW-GxtKaWk&_rdr
 * You can definitely hear his song It's All right as the music for the trailer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRwQDfc9ooE
 * I didn't research the film yet but it looks like it went to several film festivals and one of the posts on the main Facebook page says
 * "We are very excited to announce that White Rose is going to POLAND!
 * It's part of the Official Selection of the International Random Film Festival and will be screening at the end of the month!"
 * I don't really know if that is an honor, award or what. I can look into it. Kiwatts (talk) 10:41, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
 * White Rose music - Worth mentioning, but Facebook is not going to make for a good source. Is the fact recorded anywhere else?
 * Book - Again worth mentioning. The book itself constitutes a primary source, as it is written by him. Primary sources can be used for some things - it is reliable information for what Ren says about himself, for instance. Quotations or biographical information. However, keep an eye on WP:PRIMARY.
 * Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:24, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Ren's song It's Alright is listed as the soundtrack for the film in IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3712942/ Mackey79 (talk) 12:03, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
 * IMDB is user generated. Also not reliable, sorry. Do we know where IMDB got the information from? That would be the thing to cite. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 12:19, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, I didn't find other mentions of Ren in connection with the film on a quick search but I guess the book is fine to add to the article since it clearly exists 😊 Mackey79 (talk) 13:41, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Turns out the book was written by another UK musician called Ren so we can scrap that from the article. Mackey79 (talk) 20:01, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Massive Overcitation and Notability
Please see Citation overkill. This page has way too many citations and it is obscuring anything that demonstrates notability. What would you say are the four best secondary sources about him, demonstrating that he has "gained sufficiently significant attention by the world at large and over a period of time" WP:N for an article of his own? How much of this information on this page can be sourced to just those sources? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 12:18, 7 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Since writing this a little over 10 hours ago, you have added another 40 references to this article! This must be consuming a lot of your time, but please could you address the above comment. What 4 sources are the best here for establishing the notability of this subject? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 21:46, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * If you want me to stop I will. I wrote what I just had before your comment and cut and pasted it when I was finished with my medical care.  I'm paralyzed from the neck down so I have to do things in between care.  I didn't see your comments until after I added the new material. I had the article open on my browser since last night and the message didn't appear until I hit publish.   Kiwatts (talk) 22:04, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Someone had started this page not me. What they did write kept getting removed due to lack of sources and other issues.  I had already started to write a Draft that I was going to put through for review but I haven't finished yet as the message above mentions.  Ren has notability but what had been written before I moved  what I had here kept getting removed.   I figured since I was already working on the subject I would help them out by adding what I have so far.  I'm working chronologically and haven't gotten to present day but I can skip to talking about his last 3 releases that all charted on Youtube and the one that went viral if you want.  He has other songs that have charted as well. There are numerous articles written about him recently, I just haven't gotten to that section yet.  His name is in the requested articles list as someone to write. He is on the charts now in several countries.  His song Hi Ren, is the video went viral.  He is more notable in the UK than the US right now.   I am in the US so I can only learn about him and his career through what is found on the internet.  Kiwatts (talk) 21:56, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks for engaging here. So what I want to do is avoid wasting your time, while establishing notability. The reason the references were being removed is that they were not reliable sources. If you take a look at WP:RS there is a lot of information about sourcing you can read. What we need to establish for this page is not the quantity of sources, but the quality. That's why I asked what you thought the 4 best sources are about him. When we know the best sources, we can (1) establish notability of the subject, and (2) mine those sources for the information for the page, so it is more tightly focussed on the notable information about him. Not every singer is notable, so we do need to establish that notability. There is no immediate hurry. Feel free to spend a it of time reading about what makes a reliable source, if you haven't already done so. Then choose just a few sources you think are good and paste them here, in talk. Then we can discuss those here and see if the page can be improved with them. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 23:11, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I can't go through the articles I have read over the past couple months to give you the best ones but I will.  Here are are two I happen to have open in my browser tabs.
 * https://www.themusicman.uk/ren-gill/
 * https://bryanwinchell-japan.medium.com/hi-ren-the-full-series-c0849ea7b891 Kiwatts (talk) 23:33, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm eating dinner and then have to do care. It's not that I don't want to  Kiwatts (talk) 23:34, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I read the citation article. I think I can remove several citations if I can do things like
 * 1. give the overview page for SongStats.com instead of the relevant sections
 * 2. cite the YouTube community page, artist social media pages instead of the individual posts
 * 3. get rid of articles that echo the same content and so on.
 * I have only had one source deleted and that was the daily mail. I recently moved some citations because the text they were for was removed by another editor.
 * The reason I put links to each individual thing was because after reading what BoyTheKingCanDance's profile said about citations I thought that was what I needed to do. I have insurance coverage battles I have .to fight at the moment after having someone read me my mail yesterday but I will edit down the citations first then work on the articles.  It is hard to cover from 2009 to 2023 with only 4 articles.  That would be had to do with many of the musicians on Wikipedia.  A lot say more citation needed.  I guess in an effort to avoid that given that  BoyTheKingCanDance was deleting everything I went too far in the other direction.
 * It gets confusing when reading the different things and editors view points that conflict with one another. I have been busy reading and adjusting instead of writing with the limited free time I have. I will have to take some time to do life maintenance too because of my physical situation.  I don't want to do all of this for nothing given my limited time if everything is just going to be deleted when I am done.   Kiwatts (talk) 10:03, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I am not saying we have to reduce the whole page to 4 citations. We can have more. I am just looking for 4 good citations that establish that the artist is notable, and why. That would form a core of the information, and additional information with additional citations will be fine.
 * Don't worry, there are no deadlines on Wikipedia, and there is an essay called WP:DEMOLISH that states we need to give editors time to build a page. There is no need to rush, but just, as you can, let's establish the best sources and work from there.
 * Regarding sources, Youtube is not usually the best source to cite. We can cite it, but there should be a preference for secondary written sources that are not self published, and are reliable and independent. I haven't had time myself to investigate the sources you placed, although first read of the Musicman one seems okay, depending on who the author is. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:19, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I was citing only Ren's words about hiself and his undertakings not other peoples statements. I read you can use the words of the subject being written about.  He talks a lot to his audience about everything going on.  I am not using anyone else unless the section has them in it because he is in the band like The Big Push.  The other videos are actual interviews with him so it is his own words again  Kiwatts (talk) 10:34, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * If you look at the citations a lot say Ren Gill for the medical issues. He knows best what is happening with that I figure.  Things get distorted when others write about things.  Like a childhood game of telephone    Kiwatts (talk) 10:43, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Also when the band or artists announce something isn't it better to use them as the source if it is about them? Like tour dates etc Kiwatts (talk) 10:46, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia says if you are writing a biography you can use things written by the person the biography is about. I was going off that  Kiwatts (talk) 11:26, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, you can use Youtube and stuff written about himself, and when a Youtube clip is of Ren saying something, the source does verify that statement. However, what you then have is a primary source. This is the subject talking about himself, or his own words quoted. Sometimes that is fine, but most of the time what you need are secondary sources. Particularly when talking about notability, but also when putting words into context, you need to be quoting what someone else has said about the subject. Per WP:BLPSTYLE, Articles should document in a non-partisan manner what reliable secondary sources have published about the subjects, and in some circumstances what the subjects have published about themselves. So again, this is why we need to find the best reliable secondary sources. You may want to read the whole of that WP:BLP page. I know it is a lot of reading, but we want the article to be the best possible, so important we see what the policies say. Thanks again. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 14:09, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I have articles as well.  I haven't been able to get to any of what I think you are looking for..  I was just saying some of the ways I realize I can reduce the existing citations.  I regret ever posting what I was working on in an effort to help.   Kiwatts (talk) 20:23, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Here are some articles about The Big Push. The band Ren is part of.   I will find more as time allows.  Their UK tour sold out.   https://www.bn1magazine.co.uk/the-big-push-interview/?fbclid=IwAR1dBqsR-WC7peMkSPtJqOLxHdfZl_1-ayT2-1KiW7mKE3cy1XvQ4bCbG_g
 * https://highwire-magazine.com/2021/06/30/the-big-push-can-do-will-do/
 * https://www.brightonandhovenews.org/2021/06/28/brighton-based-rockers-the-big-push-announce-ep-prior-to-sold-out-uk-tour/ Kiwatts (talk) 20:56, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * About Ren - solo
 * https://www.testspiel.de/ren-bittersweet-symphony-the-verve-retake-video/381014/
 * https://seeitlive.co/guitarist-ren-jennys-tale/ Kiwatts (talk) 21:17, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Ren
 * https://acranger.com/2023/02/09/ren-raps-real-good/ Kiwatts (talk) 21:32, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * https://www.muzzik.tv/srp/vesti/131171/detaljnije/w/0/fantasticna-trilogija-rena-gilla/# Kiwatts (talk) 21:34, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Apple Music says he has been on 126 countries music charts
 * https://songstats.com/artist/hsyuo3fq/ren/audience?source=apple_music Kiwatts (talk) 22:24, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You can see some of the chart info now for Hi Ren without paying. Multiple countries.
 * https://songstats.com/artist/hsyuo3fq/ren/feed Kiwatts (talk) 23:07, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * https://thefederalist.com/2023/02/02/listen-as-hi-ren-gives-countercultural-rebuttal-to-godless-mental-health-industry/ Kiwatts (talk) 23:38, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * OK so we are still looking for the 4 best sources. I think we can discount all the Big Push articles as they are about the band, and not about Ren. Songstats are, well, songstats, and again not really about Ren. I note that calls him an "up and coming musician", which is a little problematic as Wikipedia is a lagging indicator of notability. Not all musicians are notable for an article. However this one in the Fedarlist is clearly about him and not wholly promotional . I would still like to find something more independent.  is short but ok, but again, promotional? I cannot immediately read  but can run it through translate. I expect similar comments apply.  I will do some digging. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:19, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * After the latest set of edits I'm not sure what I should write Kiwatts (talk) 19:27, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Notability
WP:BAND has this list for demonstrating notability for musicians:

Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:52, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent of the musician or ensemble itself.
 * 2) * This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, books, magazine articles, online versions of print media, and television documentaries except for the following:
 * 3) ** Any reprints of press releases, other publications where the musician or ensemble talks about themselves, and all advertising that mentions the musician or ensemble, including manufacturers' advertising.
 * 4) ** Works consisting merely of trivial coverage, such as articles that simply report performance dates, release information or track listings, or the publications of contact and booking details in directories.
 * 5) ** Articles in a school or university newspaper (or similar), in most cases.
 * 6) Has had a single or album on any country's national music chart.
 * 7) Has had a record certified gold or higher in at least one country.
 * 8) Has received non-trivial coverage in independent reliable sources of an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in at least one sovereign country.
 * 9) Has released two or more albums on a major record label or on one of the more important indie labels (i.e., an independent label with a history of more than a few years, and with a roster of performers, many of whom are independently notable).
 * 10) Is an ensemble that contains two or more independently notable musicians, or is a musician who has been a reasonably prominent member of two or more independently notable ensembles. This should be adapted appropriately for musical genre; for example, having performed two lead roles at major opera houses. Note that this criterion needs to be interpreted with caution, as there have been instances where this criterion was cited in a circular manner to create a self-fulfilling notability loop (e.g. musicians who were "notable" only for having been in two bands, of which one or both were "notable" only because those musicians had been in them.)
 * 11) Has become one of the most prominent representatives of a notable style or the most prominent of the local scene of a city; note that the subject must still meet all ordinary Wikipedia standards, including verifiability.
 * 12) Has won or been nominated for a major music award, such as a Grammy, Juno, Mercury, Choice or Grammis award.
 * 13) Has won first, second or third place in a major music competition.
 * 14) Has performed music for a work of media that is notable, e.g., a theme for a network television show, performance in a television show or notable film, inclusion on a notable compilation album, etc. (But if this is the only claim, it is probably more appropriate to have a mention in the main article and redirect to that article. Read the policy and notability guideline on subjects notable only for one event, for further clarifications).
 * 15) Has been placed in rotation nationally by a major radio or music television network.
 * 16) Has been a featured subject of a substantial broadcast segment across a national radio or television network.


 * I would say we have begun to find works under (1) but there is a way to go. (6) is not relevant, but can we demonstrate notability under any other headings? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:54, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I think he fails on 5, as his two albums are self released. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:02, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Also fails on 8. I am going to cross through the ones he definitely does not meet so we can concentrate on those he might. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:05, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * While those points make sense, I think in the case of an independent artist like Ren, the rotation that is happening on internet platforms like YouTube and Spotify should not be overlooked. Not being on a major label or on rotation on established national radio or TV networks has not prevented him from becoming known globally in the last few months. The list seems slightly outdated with the emphasis on "traditional" media channels in a world where the internet plays such a big role in the way culture is consumed. Ren currently has just over 500 000 monthly listeners on Spotify, and according to this source, that would put him in the top 0.2-0.3 of the millions of artists on Spotify: https://routenote.com/blog/how-many-monthly-listeners-on-spotify-is-good/ Mackey79 (talk) 14:13, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * If he is so notable, we will find sources that cover him under point 1. However, simply looking at a snapshot of his play/views smacks of recentism. To have an article, notability must be sustained over a period. The notability guidelines are not really optional. We could spend a lot of time on this article, saying everything there is to be said about him, but at the end of the day, if we cannot show notability under any of the above, then an editor will, sooner or later, take this page to AfD and it will be deleted. I don't think that will happen while we are making good faith attempts to establish notability, but this is why we have to establish notability now. Otherwise we might all be wasting our time. I will add, however, that if you are confident that the subject will become notable, whilst not notable yet, then an option is to take the page to draft space and improve it, waiting for the point when notability in the eyes of the world is clearly established. Indeed, already has such a draft, I believe. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 14:26, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Here is another candidate for point 1. https://nation.cymru/culture/ren-the-welsh-musician-attracting-millions-to-his-extraordinary-music/ Mackey79 (talk) 18:31, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Here is the link to my draft. Draft:Ren (British Musician) It does not have the corrections other editors have made or the text that the person who started the page wrote.  I tried to keep as much as I could of it.
 * I didn't give you the shorter articles that might help with the noteworthy part. I can look for more with just him on my possible sources document. It is over 20 pages which is why I said I will need a little time to get back to you with the four articles
 * My draft has info on Patience. His song is part of the Soundtrack and is music heard in the second half of the trailer for the movie  Kiwatts (talk) 21:39, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Will any of this verify his involvement?
 * This Sundance article about the film also mentions him in the paragraph above the trailer. It says this about Ren
 * "They use music from the Unrest original score by Bear McCreary, as well as a licensed track by musician Ren Gill, who appears in the film and is a UK-based ME patient and advocate."
 * https://www.sundance.org/case-studies/creative-distribution/unrest/
 * Here is a link showing his song is part of the soundtrack.
 * https://www.shazam.com/track/374520461/patience
 * Ren also appears in the trailer very briefly 50 seconds in
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvK5s9BNLzA&t=50s
 * About halfway down this page talks about Ren being in the movie and his song being used. Also a bit about his illness.  search Gill to find it quickly
 * https://lymediseaseuk.com/2017/10/01/unrest/ Kiwatts (talk) 23:34, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * As far as sustained the film was 2017 and he is still being talked about now. Is that long enough?   Kiwatts (talk) 23:41, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 *  For number 11 
 * I have found leads that at least two of Ren's songs were played on BBC radio. (I can look for others if needed) Ren posted the day and time for one and I was able to track it down.
 * Now I just need to figure out how to verify the other one without knowing at least one of the days and time periods it was on.
 * I will have to see if he posted about other songs to.  I think I vaguely remember seeing some when I was scrolling though his social media looking for clues. And of course find them played a couple of times.  The song Humble looks like it could fit the rotation part of the criteria.
 * Blind Eyed feat Sam Tompkins
 * Ren's post https://www.facebook.com/renmakesmusic/photos/a.1842909365965204/1991129741143165/?paipv=0&eav=AfZ4lo85lWV2Aml1jMjsOH14iv-Q5co8jZvA_xAbFHCSJ8m5rEJHoBLa9TgecU2WT-M&_rdr
 * Found the BBC playlist with it on it
 * https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bbc8xr
 * Humble feat Eden Nash
 * (article) https://lefuturewave.com/2019/10/16/introducing-eden-nash-lonely/
 * found it on a different station but not BBC yet
 * https://eastsidefm.org/episodes/the-fuzz-1100pm-18th-mar-2019/
 * This is what it says in the about section for the station
 * Eastside Radio is the community station for the City of Sydney and Eastern Suburbs. Having been on air for nearly 40 years, the station is an established cultural icon with a loyal following of listeners.
 * I think How to Be Me received BBC air play too
 * As far as playlists go a sustainability his songs prior to Hi Ren have in playlists over the years. SongStats could verify that but it would be better if the verification was free.
 * I took screenshots of Sick Boi and Bittersweet Symphony on YouTubes chart and I think the global chart for Hi Ren but that is self reporting. He has charted on several streaming platforms in multiple countries and some as high as #1.   I don't know if that counts for anything.  A lot of people only stream.
 * I also know his song It's Alright was sold in the Netherlands in 2016. I might know someone I might be able to ask about it   It's in the Discography section under other
 * It's Alright - MIKVH feat. Ren Gill and It's Alright - Extended Mix - MIKVH feat. Ren Gill Kiwatts (talk) 23:14, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. As for point 10, the film Unrest by Jennifer Brea may be considered as notable since both the film and Jennifer Brea have Wikipedia articles. Ren's song "Patience" was used in the film after Brea heard it as she explains here: https://twitter.com/jenbrea/status/1353165844444921856?lang=fi Mackey79 (talk) 14:31, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * That is helpful, yes. Just the kind of thing we need. IMDB confirms and that he was in the film, although IMDB is not itself a reliable source. But I am sure that will lead to some independent sourcing. So to get the links here, that is Unrest (2017 film). Thanks for this. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 14:38, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/18580563.watch-brightons-disability-pride-2020/
 * If you use the Chrome browser there is an extension called Google Translate that you can install into it. if you activate it it will translate whatever web page you are on. Obviously it isn't perfect but it will give you a fairly good indication of what the page you were on is trying to say.
 * Ren was working on his solo career as well as being a member of the band The Big Push at the same time. I am starting to find information that indicates  he was performing as a solo artist at the same venues the group was performing at.   He and The Big Push we're going to be performing at the Russian Festival Дикой Мятеin 2022.. actually they were supposed to preform in 2021 but it was canceled because of the pandemic. one of the Snippets I found seems to indicate he had performed in the festival previously. I have been trying to find evidence of that.  It is a little hard because I have to figure out what words to use to search and hope that they mean the same thing in Russian when I use translation. I've seen evidence of it during the Google search in preview they give you on the results page but when I click on the link for the page the information isn't there so I think they may have reused the page.
 * The translation for this page is
 * https://violet.mintmusic.ru/news/the-big-push-na-dikoj-myate-2021/
 * The Big Push at Wild Mint 2021
 * August 10, 2020
 * The Big Push  are three friends from Brighton, led by the already known Ren, the spirit of real Britain in a modern reading. Over the past year, the guys have created a crazy buzz both in the Brighton music scene and around the world, collecting hundreds of thousands of views of their performances on YouTube.
 * A new take on British traditions —  The Big Push  will perform at  Wild Mint 2021!
 * This page shows him and the Big Push separately on the list of performers in 2022
 * https://allfest.ru/festival-2022/dikaya-myata Kiwatts (talk) 21:51, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Here is his announcement that he will perform in 2020
 * https://www.facebook.com/renmakesmusic/posts/2328000040789465/ Kiwatts (talk) 22:06, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * He is on the list of performers for that year and The Big Push isn't
 * https://allfest.ru/news/festival-2020/dikaya-myata/uchastniki Kiwatts (talk) 22:09, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * This is the translation for the announcement
 * https://violet.mintmusic.ru/news/ren-na-dikoj-myate/
 * Ren on Wild Mint!
 * December 16, 2019
 * The voice of Britain's generation - Ren on  "Wild Mint" ! Incredible musical discoveries take place at Wild Mint
 * every year   . Next year will be no exception! Meet the UK's most promising musician - urban romantic Ren ! If we talk about independent and wild-growing artists, then Ren is the unequivocal embodiment of these definitions! He started his career on the streets, making money by performing his songs in transitions. In a matter of weeks, the musician's popularity went beyond the borders of his native Brighton and spread throughout the country. Now Ren is gathering halls around the world with his sincere songs, and his tour schedule is scheduled months in advance.
 * Meet Ren at  the Wild Mint  - it will be legendary! Kiwatts (talk) 22:17, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Older Article
 * NEW SECRET: REN – JESSICA (FEAT. ORLEANS)
 * https://brocantehome.net/hi-ren/ Kiwatts (talk) 02:10, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * this is the link for this one
 * https://www.wherethemusicmeets.com/2016/05/16/new-secret-ren-jessica-feat-orleans/ Kiwatts (talk) 02:56, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Short
 * https://www.pmstudio.com/music/music.html?page=20201230-12826 Kiwatts (talk) 02:53, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Not in English
 * https://www.shockmagazin.hu/cd-kritika/ren-hi-ren Kiwatts (talk) 02:57, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Weighing in separately
I'm kind of amazed how sparse the secondary sources are about Ren. I had put in an article request on January 21, and the reason I had left it at that instead of writing an article was my inability to find good secondary sources. It's really a pity that one of the best articles about him is in the Daily Mail, and while I know we have decided that's not a reliable source, of course there's no reason to doubt their reporting on this sort of topic.

For what it's worth: I think in respect of people coming up as independents nowadays, it may be time to consider adding a criterion that relates to much-watched videos. Five million views is nothing to sniff at, but when we wrote our criteria for musicians, it wasn't a way anyone got started; even Tim Minchin didn't start getting attention that way. I'm pretty sure we have people who are (for example) TikTok sensations with fewer views than that, and certainly bloggers who don't approach that level of audience.

Anyway, if we somehow can't get enough "reliable sources" to establish notability at this time, such sources should almost certainly be forthcoming over time, so if this does get deleted on that basis it would be good if the deletion comment in the log makes it clear that in the event that notability is later demonstrated, there is enough salvageable material in this article that someone should not have to start from scratch in re-writing it. - Jmabel &#124; Talk 23:56, 11 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I posted some candidates under the topic Timeline. Hopefully they will pass muster <~> Kiwatts (talk) 03:34, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh and the views are at 7.3 million now! Look for yourself.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_nc1IVoMxc  I don't think it's stopping anytime soon.  The reaction community is reacting to a lot of his music and all his views on his songs are going up.  Several songs have a million views or more. Scroll down his videos and see https://www.youtube.com/@RenMakesMusic/videos   Kiwatts (talk) 07:18, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Money Game 2 April 16, 2020 has 7.8 Million currently. More than Hi Ren.
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YonS9_QJbp8
 * Ren x Chinchilla - How To Be Me (Lyric video) December 25, 2019 has 5.17 Million  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IhoPpHYXjo
 * There are still other with a million or more and a few that are getting close to a million Kiwatts (talk) 07:33, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * This has 11.3 Million views
 * Ren & Sam Tompkins - Earned it /Mans World / Falling Sep 20, 2018
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8nBzrhd8Ro Kiwatts (talk) 07:42, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * If, and at this point it is only if this went to deletion discussion, even without sufficient sources, I would be suggesting "draftify" as the outcome. Putting an article in draft space, where it can be improved, in the clear belief that the subject will become notable, is perfectly acceptable, so nothing need be lost. YouTube views often do get counted in deletion discussions. They shouldn't - it is not a policy reason for keeping an article - but they often (but inconsistently) do. So at this point I have no idea how a deletion discussion would go, but I would really like to put the issue beyond doubt by finding just a few good secondary sources. I think we are half way there. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:52, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * One interesting thing is to take a look at Ren and for example these artists listed as most exciting "rising stars" of 2023: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/4cDF1mffDg143CCgwdfDkdH/radio-1s-sound-of-2023
 * All of the artists listed there have Wikipedia articles. One of them, the group FLO was formed just two years ago and has already disbanded so there is not a very long period of notability there. And Ren has way more subscibers on YouTube than the top three put together. The only one on the list who has more total views on YouTube is Asake, one of the runner-ups. Something to consider at least. Mackey79 (talk) 10:51, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You will have seen the edits by another editor yesterday, which are a reminder that any editor can raise notability concerns. Also, other pages existing is not really proof of anything. A lot of non notable bands and singers get pages and then, eventually, they get deleted. The ones you mention may simply not be deleted yet. But on Ren, I find myself erring on the side of notability, despite concerns that we may be WP:TOOSOON. I would like a second opinion from an editor experienced in deletion discussions, but I think the article is worth working on. I will start making some substantive edits to the article soon. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:57, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I uploaded a copy of most of the sources I found to the same folder on dropbox that I put the article translations in but here is a direct link https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/8u4qblv5tonrk5y439hqa/Copy-of-Ren-Wiki-Source-possibilities.docx?dl=0&rlkey=q7cchq8vrd92himtwto5w24m8 Some links might appear more than once but hopefully not a lot. I noticed some were in the wrong top ic and moved them but I didn't go through the document yet,  A and B has a mixture of things.  Some links fit into multiple categories but are only in one.  Sorry if it's a bit all over the place. It was a working copy that evolved the deeper I went when looking to piece the story together.. His social media has clues that leads to sources.  I didn't think to include all of the relevant ones at the time.   I was going to go back through it all.  It's in your hands now.  Let me know when you have downloaded it so I can delete it.  Please share with Jmabel and other interested editors. Kiwatts (talk) 02:34, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I clicked the link above and and it wanted a sign in. I'm not sure why.  try this one.  If it doesn't work I'll put it in google drive and share from there
 * https://www.dropbox.com/s/m2zsq5scq76cmvt/Copy%20of%20Ren%20Wiki%20Source%20possibilities%20.docx?dl=0 Kiwatts (talk) 02:40, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Nation CYMRU has 6.8 million in two months if you want to have a citation that doesn't add to the count. instead of the 5 million. Kiwatts (talk) 18:58, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I have been looking for the site with the 5 million but found another. I didn't want to just add it.  I haven't had the time to check it properly.  I'll continue to look for the original if this one won't work.  Sometimes I forgot to copy and save a URL.  Looking at the link address after I just pasted in.  I'll keep looking
 * https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/hi-ren-ren-gill.1170032/   Kiwatts (talk) 22:40, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, perfectly acceptable to change the text to what is in the Nation.Cymru article and use that as the citation. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 22:52, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * When checked at 4pm EST Three of Ren's songs are on iTunes Top 40 UK Hip Hop & Rap Tracks.  The song he released just yesterday is #1 Illest Of Our Time,  Hi Ren is #5, and Power is #23.
 * Power was released April 7,2022. Hi Ren was released December 16,2022.
 * Is it acceptable to include this information in the article about Ren? I haven't checked the other charts yet.
 * http://www.itunescharts.net/uk/charts/songs/hip-hop/ Kiwatts (talk) 20:16, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Only illest and hi ren there now. Might be difficult to use them as the source changes by the minute. 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:8CE3:6307:56F6:5B11 (talk) 04:31, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Song Stats stores the information longterm. He is on the iTunes UK top 40 for hip hop Illest is #1 and Hi Ren fluctuates between #5 and #7 depending on the day.  Power, an older song, was further down the list on the 30th but it's gone now  I believe  Kiwatts (talk) 09:49, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I didn't cite that because it's a grey areas in the rules. He is also in the iTunes top overall in the UK.  The rules have iTunes as Red unless no other accessible charts are available and then you can use it only for the country that the artist is primarily making music in   I decided to be cautious and not include it, especially since I cited YouTube.  He has other songs that have charted in the UK Overall chart on iTunes too.  It would show that he is charting on multi single vendor charts which is I believe they were trying to accomplish when they specified the charts they did but I don't want to assume anything.   Kiwatts (talk) 10:03, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * This is the iTunes hip hop chart. He is at #1 and #5 as I post this.
 * http://www.itunescharts.net/uk/charts/songs/hip-hop/
 * This is the top 100 on iTunes. He is at  #57 today April 1st, 2023.  You can view previous charts in this category without having to pay for SongStats.
 * http://www.itunescharts.net/uk/charts/songs/current/
 * Yesterday he was #57 also http://www.itunescharts.net/uk/charts/songs/2023/03/31
 * He debuted on the 30th, the first full day after his 3 pm EST / 8pm GMT release, at number #29. Here is that chart http://www.itunescharts.net/uk/charts/songs/2023/03/30
 * I live in Massachusetts in the US so I think EST first. It was late in the day to chart on the 29th but was able to have the full 24 hours on the 30th. Kiwatts (talk) 10:19, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Ren has been in the UK top 100 on YouTube for 5 weeks now. It's down this week to #68  the chart let's you know what it was last week and how many weeks straight it has been there
 * https://charts.youtube.com/charts/TopVideos/gb/20230317-20230323 Kiwatts (talk) 20:42, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Timeline
I used my google translate plugin to translate articles to english and printed the results. I put them in my dropbox and I am providing a link so you don’t have to go through the hassle of translation. If I forgot to attach a link let me know. Here is a link to the folder the translated articles are in on Dropbox https://www.dropbox.com/sh/cpdfqvlfy1lk2f1/AAD1SkT%20Z%20zPEYh47f8k3-vXa?dl=0

Website - Stabal TV

Broadcasting & media production company

"STABAL | The On Demand Music Experience 🎵 Get Lost In Music, Anytime, Anywhere."

https://www.facebook.com/StabalMusic/?%20ga=2.242853634.1063306399.1678567762-332417890.1675550900

Where to find us: Warlies Park House, Horseshoe Hill, Upshire EN9 3SL.

“Ren & Sam Tompkins”

https://watch.stabal.com/ren-sam-tompkins

You have to pay to be able to view this music channel has performer that are on Wikipedia

Heather Small https://watch.stabal.com/heather-small

Skinny Living https://watch.stabal.com/skinny-living

Nick Mulvey https://watch.stabal.com/nick-mulvey

CANiDATE

Website - Where the Music Meets

An online music magazine curated by musicholics.

Lisbon, Portugal

phone number +351 919 160 074

info@wherethemusicmeets.com

Their facebook page https://www.facebook.com/wherethemusicmeets

2016 May 16 “NEW SECRET: REN – JESSICA (FEAT. ORLEANS)” By Bea Szwarc

Orlean's R&B-synth mash-up meets Ren's scratchy and frisky rap in a mixture of genres, beats, instrumentals and vocals which works wonderfully and explodes every time Jessica is called out.

https://www.wherethemusicmeets.com/2016/05/16/new-secret-ren-jessica-feat-orleans/

CANiDATE

Website - The Brighton & Hove News

2016 May 26. “Brighton musician dumped by Sony over illness goes to US for treatment” by Jo Wadsworth

https://www.brightonandhovenews.org/2016/05/26/brighton-musician-dumped-by-sony-over-illness-goes-to-us-for-treatment/

Canidates - Proof he was in and wrote a song on the soundtrack for Unrest

These two sites state Ren was in Unrest and his music was used. He is also the spokesperson for Lyme Disease UK

1) Website - Lyme Disease UK

About halfway down this page talks about Ren being in the movie and his song being used. Also a bit about his illness. search Gill to find it quickly

2017 October 1st ‘Unrest’ – UK Screenings An Award-Winning Film about ME

https://lymediseaseuk.com/2017/10/01/unrest/

"LDUK spokesperson and talented musician, Ren Gill, is featured in Unrest and his music is also used in the film." also has quotes from Ren in the article

2) Website - Sundance

This Sundance article about the film also mentions him in the paragraph above the trailer. It says this about Ren

"They use music from the Unrest original score by Bear McCreary, as well as a licensed track by musician Ren Gill, who appears in the film and is a UK-based ME patient and advocate."

“Distribution Case Study: Unrest - sundance.org.” by Jess Fuselier

https://www.sundance.org/case-studies/creative-distribution/unrest/

3) Here is a link showing his song is part of the soundtrack.

https://www.shazam.com/track/374520461/patience

4) Ren also appears in the trailer very briefly 50 seconds in (the link is cued to that time.

He is the man that says “It’s like I’m just watching my life disappear”

His song is the music you hear on the Trailer from time 1:19 on

2017 June 25 “Unrest - Official Trailer HD” by Unrest Film

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvK5s9BNLzA&t=50s

CANiDATE

Website - Guerrilla Radio

Str. General Dimitrie Salmen, No. 20, Ap. 7, Code 021371,

Sector 2, Bucharest.

statmajor@guerrillaradio.ro

phone number 0758 948 948

2019 November 1 “REN – MONEY GAME”

https://www.guerrillaradio.ro/artisti-la-reboot/ren-money-game/

Translated with google translate plugin then Printed

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xzz8rb07gpussxi/Ren%20%E2%80%93%20Bittersweet%20symphony%20%28The%20Verve%20retake%20Video%29%20-%20Testspiel.pdf?dl=0

CANiDATE

Website - pm studio world wide news

1-1-41,tenmabashi,kitaku,Osaka,Japan, 530-0042

pmstudio@pmstudio.com

They have articles of very well known music stars also eg Miley Cyrus and it’s done in the same format as the article about Ren https://www.pmstudio.com/music/20230311-19286

2020 December 30 “Ren Shares New Music Video for “Penitence” featuring Molly McKinna”. byToshio Maeoka,

https://www.pmstudio.com/music/music.html?page=20201230-12826

CANiDATE

Website - Muzzik TV

address

Original film DOO

Belgrade, Koče Popovića no. 9

Tel: +381 11 3283806

"Muzzik is a unique guide through various genres of world and regional popular music"

Social media links at bottom bring you back to the Muzzil TV article - not to Ren

2022 August 9, “Ren Gill's fantasy trilogy” by Maja Jovanović

https://www.muzzik.tv//srp/vesti/131171/detaljnije/w/0/fantasticna-trilogija-rena-gilla/

Translated with google translate plugin then Printed

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jbdwtozwv6pn3q/Muzzik%20TV%20_%20Muzi%C4%8Dki%20portal%20-%20Fantasti%C4%8Dna%20trilogija%20Rena%20Gilla.pdf?dl=0

2022- December 18, "Ren is back with new song "Hi Ren Once you enter the world of his songs, you won't get out easily" by Maja Jovanović

https://www.muzzik.tv/srp/vesti/131635/detaljnije/w/0/ren-je-ponovo-medju-nama-s-novom-pesmom-hi-ren/

Translated with google translate plugin then Printed

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lc1htt73tw5tw71/Muzzik%20TV%20_%20Music%20portal%20-%20Ren%20is%20with%20us%20again%20with%20a%20new%20song%20_Hi%20Ren_.pdf?dl=0

Canidate

Shockmagazin

Shock!

Béla Bartók u. 17.

Budapest XV.

1151

(Hungary)

Writers etc. https://www.shockmagazin.hu/impresszum

Translated with google translate plugin then Printed https://www.dropbox.com/s/sih2t2o5tcj18vt/Imprint%20-%20Shock%21.pdf?dl=0

2023 January 23 “Ren: Hi Ren”Hi Ren by Bertli Zoli

https://www.shockmagazin.hu/cd-kritika/ren-hi-ren

Translated with google translate plugin then Printed https://www.dropbox.com/s/jqco4iiv9sdd4u2/Ren_%20Hi%20Ren%20-%20Shock%21.pdf?dl=0

Canidate

Website - THE FEDERALIST

The Federalist

712 H St NE

Unit #847

Washington, DC 20002

Phone number (571) 358-9028

FEBRUARY 02, 2023, "Listen As ‘Hi Ren’ Gives Countercultural Rebuttal To Godless Mental Health Industry" BY: EVITA DUFFY-ALFONSO

https://thefederalist.com/2023/02/02/listen-as-hi-ren-gives-countercultural-rebuttal-to-godless-mental-health-industry/

Translated with google translate plugin then Printed

https://www.dropbox.com/s/17x8xhpae0uybix/_Hi%20Ren_%20Gives%20Countercultural%20Rebuttal%20To%20Mental%20Health%20Industry.pdf?dl=0

Canidate

Website - Testspiel.de

Marc Ehrich

Anna-von-Gierke-Ring 137

21035 Hamburg

email: marc [AT] testspiel [PUNKT] de

Telephone number +49 (0) 160 – 7547509

On their about page if says

https://www.testspiel.de/ueber-testspiel/

Translated with google translate plugin then Printed https://www.dropbox.com/s/wu1stnwxrzi2l4u/About%20Testspiel.de%20-%20Testspiel.pdf?dl=0

Dear bands, artists and agencies, please understand that we cannot answer every email. There are too many requests. If we like something, we'll let you know. Thanks for your understanding.

I think it’s a polite way of saying stop bothering us. We don’t promote.

2023 February 5 “Ren – Bittersweet symphony (The Verve retake Video)” by Marc

https://www.testspiel.de/ren-bittersweet-symphony-the-verve-retake-video/381014/

Translated with google translate plugin then Printed https://www.dropbox.com/s/sih2t2o5tcj18vt/Imprint%20-%20Shock%21.pdf?dl=0

Kiwatts (talk) 02:46, 12 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm showing how new I am to Wikipedia editing. Can someone please make my links work Thank you!
 * I doubt he will ever sign with a label again after what happened with Sony Music Kiwatts (talk) 03:04, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I figured out how to fix the links! Welcome distraction from the bad weather that is coming and making my back hurt enough that I can't sleep.  Plus I get to learn more!  I live in Massachusetts in the US Kiwatts (talk) 07:08, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Another article that is a movie review and has his name in the featured section
 * Unrest by Mansel Stimpson
 * https://www.filmreviewdaily.com/all-reviews/unrest Kiwatts (talk) 06:34, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Another very short mention
 * 2020 July 14 Watch Brighton's Disability Pride 2020 By Jody Doherty-Cove
 * https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/18580563.watch-brightons-disability-pride-2020/ Kiwatts (talk) 09:25, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I want to thank you for all the effort you are putting in, but just want to make a quick point. The reason I asked for the four best references was because that is a small and manageable number that demonstrates notability without providing so much information that no one else will be able to reply. There is an inverse relationship between the length of discussion on a talk page and the probability of any other editors commenting. We really nned to focus on this smaller number. Let's choose the 4 best sources and go from there. If 4 is insufficient, then at that point we can look for more. But 4 secondary sources. We have 2, I think. The nation.cymru article is one, and one of the Unreal reviews is another. Half way there. What additional 2 secondary sources do we want to discuss? When we have that, I suggest a new talk section tightly focused on thise sources may encourage other editors to contribute. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:48, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry if this was already mentioned but here's an article from Music Crowns, a platform focused on unsigned artists: https://www.musiccrowns.org/new-music/rens-lyrics-have-a-raw-and-emotional-intensity-that-is-present-throughout-hi-ren/ Mackey79 (talk) 11:46, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Which of these two do you mean for the Unrest article? I'm guessing the first one since it mentioned both being featured and his song
 * 1) Website - Lyme Disease UK
 * About halfway down this page talks about Ren being in the movie Unrest and his song being used. Also a bit about his illness. search Gill to find it quickly
 * "LDUK spokesperson and talented musician, Ren Gill, is featured in Unrest and his music is also used in the film."
 * ‘Unrest’ – UK Screenings An Award-Winning Film about ME
 * https://lymediseaseuk.com/2017/10/01/unrest/
 * 2) Website - Film Review
 * A movie review and has his name in the featured section
 * Unrest by Mansel Stimpson
 * https://www.filmreviewdaily.com/all-reviews/unrest Kiwatts (talk) 18:58, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * If it's the first site then I pick these four
 * 1) ‘Unrest’ – UK Screenings An Award-Winning Film about ME
 * https://lymediseaseuk.com/2017/10/01/unrest/
 * About halfway down this page talks about Ren being in the movie Unrest and his song being used. Also a bit about his illness. search Gill to find it quickly
 * "LDUK spokesperson and talented musician, Ren Gill, is featured in Unrest and his music is also used in the film."
 * 2) The Welsh musician attracting millions to his extraordinary music by Lowri Llewelyn
 * https://nation.cymru/culture/ren-the-welsh-musician-attracting-millions-to-his-extraordinary-music/
 * 3) Listen As ‘Hi Ren’ Gives Countercultural Rebuttal To Godless Mental Health Industry BY: EVITA DUFFY-ALFONSO
 * https://thefederalist.com/2023/02/02/listen-as-hi-ren-gives-countercultural-rebuttal-to-godless-mental-health-industry/
 * 4) Brighton musician dumped by Sony over illness goes to US for treatment by Jo Wadsworth
 * https://www.brightonandhovenews.org/2016/05/26/brighton-musician-dumped-by-sony-over-illness-goes-to-us-for-treatment/ Kiwatts (talk) 19:05, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * If these had been in English I would have chosen them instead. I figured no one would want to deal with them not being in English.
 * Ren – Bittersweet symphony (The Verve retake Video) by Marc
 * https://www.testspiel.de/ren-bittersweet-symphony-the-verve-retake-video/381014/
 * Translated with google translate plugin then Printed
 * https://www.dropbox.com/s/sih2t2o5tcj18vt/Imprint%20-%20Shock%21.pdf?dl=0
 * “Ren: Hi Ren”Hi Ren by Bertli Zoli
 * https://www.shockmagazin.hu/cd-kritika/ren-hi-ren
 * Translated with google translate plugin then Printed
 * https://www.dropbox.com/s/jqco4iiv9sdd4u2/Ren_%20Hi%20Ren%20-%20Shock%21.pdf?dl=0 Kiwatts (talk) 22:25, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @Sirfurboy
 * I know #10 (Has performed music for a work of media that is notable) says if this is the only claim, it is probably more appropriate to have a mention in the main article and redirect to that article, but since there is an article that is currently under consideration would it be allowable to include a line about Ren's involvement in Unrest? Maybe something along these lines
 * Ren was featured in the 2017 movie Unrest and his song Patience was part of the soundtrack. Kiwatts (talk) 00:39, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, include it here. The notability guidelines are about trying to decide if the subject is notable for a page or not. As we have the page and arguably enough other sources to demonstrate notability, there is nothing wrong with mentioning the information on it. We are not saying that this is his only claim to notability. Rather, Hi Ren is a claim, bolstered by his role in Unrest as well as notability around Fallen Angels and to a lesser extent, his previous signing with Sony that fell through with illness (which, I think, is how he was chosen for Unrest?). So once again, yes, please do add something about Unrest. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:02, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Notability - Best Sources
Starting a new section. Try to keep comments short to encourage wider involvement. Thanks to for this list of potentially the 4 best sources to establish notability


 * 1) ‘Unrest’ – UK Screenings An Award-Winning Film about ME
 * 2) Nation.Cymru - The Welsh musician attracting millions to his extraordinary music by Lowri Llewelyn
 * 3) The Federalist - Listen As ‘Hi Ren’ Gives Countercultural Rebuttal To Godless Mental Health Industry BY: EVITA DUFFY-ALFONSO
 * 4) Brighton and Hove News - Brighton musician dumped by Sony over illness goes to US for treatment by Jo Wadsworth


 * The first is fine. It is clear that Ren and his music feature in Unrest, and even though the article is from that source because of his own Lyme disease diagnosis, the source is reliable.
 * Nation.Cymru is also fine. National newspaper coverage that is independent of the subject.
 * The Federalist is a bit of a problem as it is not a reliable source. See Reliable sources/Perennial sources. We have the same issue with the Daily Mail article. However, in establishing that the subject is notable, it is worth noting that the reliability issues are not generally with entertainment articles, and these do demonstrate national press attention in two different countries.
 * I am going to say that Brighton an Hove news is probably not a best source. My concern is that it is a local newspaper, although it does mention his abortive Sony deal.

Open to other views. Hopefully other editors are watching this page and may have a view. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:44, 12 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Here is a source from GQ magazine Thailand, it is in Thai but if translated it has a lot of info about Ren in it although their sources seem to be sources we already have on the Ren page. If anybody wants to put in the effort then it might flesh out the page more plus GQ magazine is a reputable source I guess?
 * https://www.gqthailand.com/culture/article/ren-gill-the-welsh-musician 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:DDC3:8098:CAFF:133F (talk) 20:59, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I translated them with Google translate and put them in the Dropbox folder. It will be good for the medical data.  Wikipedia is one of it's references so be careful and only use it for things that are on the other 2 references.  Here are the direct links.
 * GQ article translated to English and in a word document
 * https://www.dropbox.com/s/n78n3q0yiv3j4f9/GQ%20Ren.docx?dl=0
 * GQ article translated to English
 * https://www.dropbox.com/s/cmfurmr4nn6qeca/Ren%20GQ%20English%20.pdf?dl=0
 * Ren was in Canada for treatment in January, before Sick Boi was released on January 19, 2023..
 * Ren landed in Calgary January 12th
 * https://www.facebook.com/renmakesmusic/posts/pfbid0HxeZD9ktt81T9yVjVfVvvV9pKCqKa1QnRYwQV5rGfE3wZGMoQCBS6VShQqX9cZsHl
 * and had his first appointment January 16th
 * https://www.facebook.com/renmakesmusic/posts/pfbid02gzivyNHX84zahTPdnu7gf4uvNzrDCTZexW1ieHRcnnH8zHFKH9KYVAGcCmG8r9gtl
 * If you want to avoid citing Ren you can use another article to do it article and also boost the fact that he has long term popularity. The article talks about how he couldn't promote Sick Boi when it was released because he was in Canada receiving treatment.  It says "
 * "Ironically, now that the first single from the Sick Boi album is out, he's in hospital and doesn't have much of an opportunity to promote it. But his audience rewarded him with over 750,000 views on YouTube and over 230,000 listens on Spotify in ten days."
 * This is the article It is the second one I mentioned under Articles to consider
 * https://licata.bg/te/ren-prerodeniqt-shakespeare-s-usta-kato-eminem/
 * I put the translated article in my DropBox so you can see the English translation easier. Two different formats
 * 1) Print out of the article after the Google translate plugin for Chrome has translated the page
 * https://www.dropbox.com/s/kin5gb7tq3nspkc/Ren%20-%20Shakespeare%20reborn%20with%20a%20mouth%20like%20Eminem%20-%20THE%20FACES.pdf?dl=0
 * 2) Word document of the translation from the Google translate plugin for Chrome
 * https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jsifvuucmzwv24/Ren%20-%20Shakespeare%20reborn%20with%20a%20mouth%20like%20Eminem%20-%20THE%20FACES.docx?dl=0
 * Kiwatts (talk) 00:54, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Name and Nationality
I can only see one source for his name being Ren Eryn Gill and that is discogs, not sure who writes them. On the birth death and marriage index his name is stated as Ren Erin Gill and another link to his name further down the page from genesreunited states that it is Erin, so I have changed it to that until anyone can source it as being Eryn. Also, he was born in Wales, he grew up there, went to school there and seems to have been there until at least he was 19-20 years old. So can we say Welsh musician? Or stick with British? 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:A9F8:218C:B9FD:1B81 (talk) 19:25, 13 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Per MOS:ETHNICITY there is no policy preference for Welsh or British, but we should see what the sources use about him, and also consider his own preferences. Do we have any sources where he says he is either British or Welsh? If not, then Nation.Cymru calls him Welsh (but it would!) What do other sources say? Note that we can give preference to British sources when considering this question. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:31, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
 * He is on a youtube video called catching a coffee with Ren at 8.11, where he is asked a question England or Wales, he says Wales man, there's no question plus the Nation, Cymru article states he is Welsh. Not seen any other sources as yet. 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:A9F8:218C:B9FD:1B81 (talk) 19:40, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay, well its not the strongest evidence, but with the lack of any contradictory evidence, let's set it to Welsh. Note that the page title will remain Ren (British musician) (for now at least) as page moves are a little more involved, but the article text (and short description, when that gets added) would say Welsh. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 20:15, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I have changed it to Welsh for now. There seems to be a dispute over his name, official records have him as Erin, the discogs link says Eryn. Is discogs a legit source for his name? Surely it does not trump his birth records, maybe some cane remove that link. Plus there is a link to genesreunited showing his birth record as Erin but the title to the link says Eryn, which obviously does not correspond to the links info. Could someone sort these out? 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:A4C3:DF0B:C64D:3E68 (talk) 05:01, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I changed the genesreunited link to reflect the information in it. 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:A4C3:DF0B:C64D:3E68 (talk) 08:41, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I think Erin is correct. Discogs is user generated and thus is not a reliable source. See Reliable sources/Perennial sources. I have also been supplied a link (company registration) that confirms Ren states nationality as Welsh. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:09, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * So, as we are more certain now that Ren refers to himself as Welsh, we can consider a page move. However there are three options, so let's try and get it right:
 * Ren (British musician) - i.e. no change
 * Ren (musician) - There is a Ren (singer) already but no Ren (musician)
 * Ren (Welsh musician)
 * I can make the move, but would like some consensus on the best name before doing so. Page moves create redirects so we don't want to be changing our minds after the fact. Preferences? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:14, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm no expert on national identities in Britain but I don't see it as a problem if we stick to option 1. British does include Welsh too, after all, and if more info is added to the site later on, it could be mentioned that he grew up in Wales. He's been living in Brighton for over a decade now, it seems, and in several of his songs he references and comments on Britain as a society and kind of comes across as representing some sort of general Britishness. I'm probably not making much sense but these are some vague thoughts going through my mind 😅 Mackey79 (talk) 19:32, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * And well, the text already says he is Welsh. So maybe no move is necessary? Mackey79 (talk) 19:36, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I see no problem leaving the the page as it is now. It does state that he is Welsh which is also British. If at some later date we get more info then it can be changed then. 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:81B:F8CB:929:A04A (talk) 00:08, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I just confirmed with Ren's father that his middle name is spelled Erin 184.164.126.167 (talk) 17:55, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Well done. :) 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:F58E:39D2:A0B6:3E12 (talk) 14:43, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Singles table
New to this, and I cannot figure out why the table is cutting off the last 4 tracks from Demos Vol 1. Ideas? Thanks! 184.164.126.167 (talk) 19:08, 17 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Looking at the template code, it looks like it is coded only to allow up to 20 titles. I think that template is for singles though. You probably want an album template. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:20, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I chose singles because of all of the tracks he has that are not associated with an album, unless Genesis, Losing It, etc are on an album I don't know about. The template only had 5 singles, so I was able to extend it, but maybe missed a limiting factor. Thanks, I'll check it out. 184.164.126.167 (talk) 17:28, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, nothing in the template documentation tells you it is limited to 20, but the code is quite clear - although to see that you need to know to view source and know what you are looking at. It is basically a secret! 🤫 😁 Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:11, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I did have tables with all of his Albums, EPs etc. They were deleted when an editor was deleting a large amount of material.  They are still on my draft copy.   Freckled Angels, Demos 1 & 2, and Violets tale (EP version) as well as his singles, and other releases.  I'm not sure at this point how you will find a citation that will work to support them.  You could try https://renmakesmerch.com/en-us/pages/cds for the album and EPs but it might be an issue since it seems one of the editors is taking issue with the citations already.  They deleted a line of text and 3 citations supporting it and added a template about the citations to the article.  Kiwatts (talk) 19:07, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * So the editor who added the unreliable sources template (David Gerard) is a very well respected longstanding editor who does keep an eye on sourcing in many articles and regularly removes deprecated sources. In doing that, he no doubt spotted the use of user generated sources like YouTube and Songstats here. We have been reducing those, but they are still there. When we get those cleaned up we can remove the template, but it is just a flag that there is an issue. Regarding the tables, I am neutral on those and so if you want to reinsert some of your deleted tables, that is fine, but I would strongly suggest limiting it to the most notable songs. It seems to me (and on the subject of Ren, I am very much a non expert!) that Freckled Angels is an album that has some notability and Hi Ren is his notable single. Albums performed with previous bands are not notable here. At least, not yet. If I have that right, that would suggest that a Freckled Angels table could be appropriate, if you wish to try that. It is just my opinion though - no one has to agree with me. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:50, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * There are others that are notable. I have articles written about them.  The sources might have been the issue.  Discogs was one of them.  Would it be better to have them on a separate discography page?  I did find a non English source that has trick the fox information including the third members name.  Later on I can translate it. Kiwatts (talk) 12:40, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * this is it
 * Ren – Shakespeare reborn with a mouth like Eminem (after translation)
 * https://licata.bg/te/ren-prerodeniqt-shakespeare-s-usta-kato-eminem/ Kiwatts (talk) 12:41, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm willing to ask which sources he would like to see replaced if you want Kiwatts (talk) 12:47, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Pretty sure that David would just direct you to Reliable sources/Perennial sources. Regarding tables, how about we start with Freckled Angels and build it up slowly? We can use non English sources, but we still have to show that they demonstrate the material is notable. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 14:19, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I didn't use a template. I made my own table using the directions in the Introduction to Wikipedia Help:Introduction  Is that okay or Should I use a template?  Kiwatts (talk) 19:22, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't see any problem with that. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:38, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Every time I try to add the table or just hit enter (I use visual editor) anywhere in the document the reference section goes from 20 references down to 5.  I'm not sure what is going on.  I even tried using the reuse citation tool and it only lists 5 also.  I don't want to mess everything up so I didn't save the edit.
 * I did notice that citation 6 and 7 are the same.  When I click on them they say template generated from: R. I have only used the basic method for citations and don't want to mess anything up by deleting one. I'm not familiar with that way of doing citations yet Kiwatts (talk) 20:29, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Duplicate ref now deleted. We only need the reference at the end of the line anyway. As regards the 5 reference thing, if you edit just a section of the page, your edit window only shows you the references in that section. That may be why you only see 5. You can always try adding it and if it does mess up, just back out your change by immediately self reverting. If you do that, I can take a look at the issue too, as the bad edit will be in the page history. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 20:47, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I will give it a try. The duplication is also in the early life section too.  I noticed that Discogs isn't included in the references anymore but it is in the external links section.  Should I avoid using it as a reference for the album information or is it okay.  I don't want to add the citation reliability issue   Kiwatts (talk) 20:54, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Discogs is user generated so not reliable. Leave it off and we can find better sources. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 21:00, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Articles to consider including in write up about Ren
Guitarist Ren plays rollicking adventure story with song ‘Jenny’s Tale’ By Johndel Callora 04-01-20 https://seeitlive.co/guitarist-ren-jennys-tale/

This article from 2020 about his song Jenny's Tale. It has several quotes that might go to notably. (It also mentions Screech's Tale which is part 2 of 3)  I'm not quite sure how to write something about it and comply with the neutrality requirements.

By the end, Gill’s storytelling is so good that you would think it was real.

With only his guitar and his words, he tells a story that is beyond realistic.

Anyone who listens to this is sure to have their brain filled with vivid imagery. Although it started off as just a poem, his guitar playing and his attitude brought the entire thing to life!

He applied the right amount of suspense and grim elements of the story and perfected the song on many levels.

In the song, he carefully describes scenes implicitly by using symbolism and other figures of speech. His poetic approach in this song is a masterpiece to behold, and it’s not something we see in music very much anymore.

As of 2020, the video got 3.3 million views on YouTube. Kiwatts (talk) 22:34, 19 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Does not seem to be much info in it about Ren, so unless you are writing an article about those tales then I cannot see how much use it would be to the overall Ren article. You might be able to use it as a link for some info, it has editorial standards supposedly. 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:7067:27CB:925D:9E77 (talk) 23:02, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It's actually all about him. He wrote the song Jenny's Tale.  It is part of a trilogy of songs that was released at different times.  Screeches tale and Violets tale are the other two'  Each one can stand alone but when you listen to all three in the right order (the order of release, the story as a whole takes on a whole now significance / meaning.  This is all three songs together in order https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYAnqQ--KX0  He has video of each song by itself, and a live performance of the three.    Kiwatts (talk) 00:51, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
 * This article from Bulgaria has lots of useful material in it, including the three songs mentioned above which together are called "The Tale of Jenny and Screech". That country discovered him in 2019.  Рен – прероденият Шекспир с уста като Еминем (google translates it to Wren – Shakespeare reborn with a mouth like Eminem)  His name is misspelled during translation)  30 January 2023 by by Ivanichka Kyuchukova
 * https://licata.bg/te/ren-prerodeniqt-shakespeare-s-usta-kato-eminem/
 * He are quotes from 3 different areas of the article but there is more in there.
 * One quote
 * It quickly dawned on us that there was no way any boring musician could be behind such an "amusement park". And that was a perfect reason to dig deep into an artist with the vision of Tommy Shelby from the series Peaky Blinders, who could easily be Shakespeare reborn (with his talent for telling entire tales in his music) combined with Eminem's quick mouth. Old school rapper with blues guitar. Or a combination of at least three different artists in one body.
 * another Quote
 * Ironically, now that the first single from the Sick Boi album is out, he's in hospital and doesn't have much of an opportunity to promote it. But his audience rewarded him with over 750,000 views on YouTube and over 230,000 listens on Spotify in ten days.
 * Meanwhile, Wren has been taking advantage of his snowballing social media following and splitting their attention between new singles pouring in almost every month and high awareness of Lyme disease. He talks in detail about his treatment as well as his mental health.
 * A third quote
 * After gaining popularity, he started doing duets with various successful local artists. One of them is Sam Tompkins, who has become an Internet sensation in the last 3 years. Their combined live performances draw 1,000 people each, and their recordings are also Wren's first videos to receive six-figure views on YouTube. He is currently taking over the pavements with his band The Big Push, together with Romain Axisa and Goran Kendall, with whom they not only make phenomenal covers, but also original tracks.
 * The first big success of his author's projects came in 2019 with the trilogy "The Tale of Jenny & Screech", collected in a conceptual mini-album. Alone, with one guitar and the entire palette of musical styles in his head, armed with good lyrics in the form of fairy tales, he reaches millions.
 * Almost at the same time he makes a second strike. This time with his rap alter ego on the track "Money Game", which is a brutal and raw satire of today's money-driven world. It is his talent for arranging rhymes that attracts the attention of the British elite - people like Robbie Williams, but also people like ex-prime minister Boris Johnson, who make him more and more famous on social networks. The final powerful push of his career came from the personal confessional "Hi Ren" and the follow-up "Sick Boi". Even their music videos are socially oriented, shot in the setting of a dingy hospital room, wearing hospital clothing and visualizing his personal demons, Ren directed the videos himself (having previously written and recorded the music and vocals himself).
 * The way in which Ren reached listeners in our small country in recent days is amazingly similar to the way in which Stromae became popular with the mass audience in Bulgaria a year ago. Kiwatts (talk) 01:11, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I put the translated article in my DropBox so you can see the English translation easier. Two different formats
 * 1) Print out of the article after the Google translate plugin for Chrome has translated the page
 * https://www.dropbox.com/s/kin5gb7tq3nspkc/Ren%20-%20Shakespeare%20reborn%20with%20a%20mouth%20like%20Eminem%20-%20THE%20FACES.pdf?dl=0
 * 2) Word document of the translation from the Google translate plugin for Chrome
 * https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jsifvuucmzwv24/Ren%20-%20Shakespeare%20reborn%20with%20a%20mouth%20like%20Eminem%20-%20THE%20FACES.docx?dl=0 Kiwatts (talk) 01:25, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
 * This is Jenny's Tale by Ren without the two companion songs Screech's Tale and Violet's Tale. It was released first.  It currently has 6.7 million views. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT4PtvgakLU Kiwatts (talk) 06:56, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 4512Joe@gmail.com
 * Here are a couple articles that may have worth.  The first one is by GARETH BRANWYN about Illest of Our Time but it's extremely short and not very detailed.
 * UK rapper Ren releases video for "Illest of Our Time" GARETH BRANWYN  3:00 PM SAT APR 1, 2023 https://boingboing.net/2023/04/01/uk-rapper-ren-releases-video-for-illest-of-our-time.html?fbclid=IwAR3VrCBpNS8LT0ZEdMo8SA79fWWbseQJWiVC7tn85qIM5WC-zYbrF9d3Jkg
 * Ren: Hi Ren and Sick Boi by Sheila Taylor  https://amplifythenoise.com/2023/01/20/ren-hi-ren-and-sick-boi/
 * HOT TRACK: “Bittersweet Symphony” by Ren by Sheila Taylor https://amplifythenoise.com/2023/02/06/hot-track-bittersweet-symphony-by-ren/
 * LISTEN & WATCH: “Illest of Our Time” by Ren posted by SHELIA TAYLOR https://amplifythenoise.com/2023/04/03/listen-watch-illest-of-our-time-by-ren/?fbclid=IwAR3O-F-UbBVF7I64Xr5WTx0UCcH53dWpvz66IFN5BZdAUrP0xmGO8SVEpkM
 * [Dutch] REN – ILLEST OF OUR TIME by IVO TERPSTRA  HIPHOP | R&B29 MAART, 2023 https://www.nieuweplaat.nl/hiphop-rnb/ren-illest-of-our-time/?fbclid=IwAR3haa8FfHIZgSD88KO3FR69ZxZ2KPH9M3Ev8PwgmL_EAGuj8CrU7mHjjg0
 * [German] „Bittersweet Symphony“: Rapper Ren covert The Verve Gepostet von Annika Eichstädt | 8. Feb 2023 https://mads.de/bittersweet-symphony-rappe
 * (mentioned elsewhere on the page) [German] Marc. “Ren – Bittersweet symphony (The Verve retake Video).” Testspiel.de, 5 February 2023, .https://www.testspiel.de/ren-bittersweet-symphony-the-verve-retake-video/381014/
 * (already mentioned above) [Bulgarian] Ren – Shakespeare reborn with a mouth like Eminem by Ivanichka Kyuchukova 30/01/2023 https://licata.bg/te/ren-prerodeniqt-shakespeare-s-usta-kato-eminem/ Kiwatts (talk) 19:38, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * one more I forgot.
 * [Finnish] Surprises in contemporary music by Esa Linna 2/22/2023 https://www.sjl.fi/paakirjoitus-mielipide/5741782?fbclid=IwAR0BRKkue4tW4V_wH50naJ-k3_OaWd16Qh5OUo4s09lcMdlGqd4x5JtQw8Q Kiwatts (talk) 21:28, 4 April 2023 (UTC)