Talk:Renaud de Montauban

Untitled
Is the description of the plot correct? Charlemagne was centuries before the crusades...I can imagine the author of the chanson played around with history (as it seems to have been written during the height of the crusades), but I just wanted to check. Adam Bishop 02:08, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * Yes, it is. Renaud has to go to Palestine to seek to deliver the Holy Sepulchre.  The poem was written in the late 1100s at the earliest, at a time when the Crusades were well underway.  It may have been meant to promote them.  -- Smerdis of Tlön 02:57, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Renaud
Is this the same Renaud that caught the eye of Armide?


 * Yes, more or less. My recollection is that this episode comes from Tasso's elaboration of the story of Renaud's trip to Palestine in Jerusalem Delivered; it does not figure in the twelfth century versions.  Didn't Handel do an opera of this? Smerdis of Tlön 13:46, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Actually, no. The Rinaldo of Jerusalem Delivered is a descendant of the real Azzo II, count of Este and father of Welf I Duke of Bavaria. Is is speculated that Azzo II had another son named Bertoldo, who is the father of Rinaldo. According to legend, Azzo II is descended from Bradamante, Rinaldo of Montalban's sister.

Operas based on Renaud's encounter with Armide
Thank you for the clarification. I am not sure if Handel used this story. Louis XIV selected this story to be made into an opera by Jean-Baptiste Lully with text by Philippe Quinault. Christoph Willibald Gluck later used Quinault's text, minus the dialogue intended to flatter the Sun King, for his own opera. In addition to Lully and Gluck, composers that have used this story for opera include Joseph Haydn, Gioachino Rossini, and Antonin Dvorak. At least, this is what I read at the Lully Web Project.

English translations of the prose romances?
Were the prose romances of the Renaud chansons de geste ever translated into English, for those who might want to read an English translation? I know there are translations for Orlando Innamorto and Orlando Furioso, so I'm wondering if Renaud's own stories got the same treatment, and what the best translations might be. People interested in medieval literature might find this interesting to know about.(208.58.207.32 (talk) 04:51, 17 June 2010 (UTC))

Proposed merger
I propose that Reinold be merged into Renaud de Montauban. They are the same person: he later became a monk and was canonized in the Catholic church. See, for example, the de.wikipedia article de:Reinoldus, which has both parts of his career. - Striking this out because it's apparently complicated. (a) he was martyred, but never actually canonized; (b) the identity of the two Reinolds/Renauds is denied by many historians, although there are texts that assert it and it has been important in Dortmund, where he is the patron saint. Reinold is an undeveloped article that would be relatively easy to merge into this article, and is also younger, and since there is apparently no alternative background for the saint, it still seems logical to treat the saint in the same article. Yngvadottir (talk) 19:37, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The topics are evidently related, therefore I agree. --Tremonist (talk) 16:44, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I think this is time expired, and the original proposer appears to have recanted. Saint Reinold may have more importance as the patron saint of mediaeval masons than Renaud's literary importance in the longest chanson de geste. They need to be treated separately, and the probable connection written into both articles. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 01:13, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Writing the probable connection into both articles would perhaps be better, but should be done if we leave them separate. I moved on to other things while awaiting input from experts :-) Yngvadottir (talk) 04:52, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think there have been any experts since the early 16th century. I tripped across this pairing researching Hiram Abif, and I haven't traced the Caxton reference yet (Caxton mushed them together). Reinold appears to have been brushed under the carpet in the Counter-Reformation, and wasn't in the original Butler's "Lives of the Saints". Useful stones to look under would be commentaries on Caxton and French/German hagiographies. My German is rubbish, and what I've got so far is rough OR. The Naudon reference I put in the Hiram Abif article seems to indicate that he expects the French Freemasons he is writing for to already be aware of much more than he put into print. The Anglo-American world of merry masonry have never heard of either of them. Any more ideas? Fiddlersmouth (talk) 11:18, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Art historical relationships
I'm surprised there isn't a section on the well-known (to art, costume, and dance history students, anyway) 15th c. cycle of paintings by Loyset Liedet, (Paris, Bibliotheque de l'Arsenal MS 5073) which include a) depictions of the brothers together, b) Renaud's marriage feast and c) an apparent/probable *basse danse* scene with a simultaneous panel showing he and Clarisse seated on their marriage bed afterwards. The wikimedia file for the latter is execrably pixilated and should be replaced, someone could do two favors in one if they could locate a better version and put up something about it.96.233.98.79 (talk) 17:20, 7 October 2012 (UTC)