Talk:Republican Party (United States)/Archive 1

Arnold Schwarzenegger
Shouldn't Arnold Schwarzenegger be in the Moderate section? he is not against abortion or some gun control.

Yes, absolutely. I just moved him there. It was my mistake of putting him in the Fiscal conservatives faction in the first place. But yes, he is widely considered a moderate. He has voted for some pro-environment bills, and he's socially liberal as you have pointed out, which places him within the moderate faction. -- Narc1

Anti-slavery clarification
I think "anti-slavery" should be clarified as the Republican Party was not strictly abolitionist but was formed to oppose the expansion of slavery into the territories. --Daniel C. Boyer 08:44, 1 Aug 2002 (UTC)

Boyer's statement is untrue, the Freesoil Party was established do differentiate between the Republican belief (abolishion and anti-slavery) and the Freesoil belief (ending expansion of slave territory) -- Kyle McGuire

Boyer is correct. The Speech that Abraham Lincoln made on February 27, 1860 at Cooper Union in New York City, made him the first Republican president, so it may be taken as the position of the Republican Party at that time. Lincoln felt, and said, that slavery was an evil that eventually would end, but that the Union and the other states should tolerate it, for the time being, in the states in which it was presently established, so as not to split the country. The speech argued that Stephen A. Douglas was wrong in his assertion that the Federal government had no power or right to limit slavery's spread to the territories and new states. He gave a powerful argument based on the Constitution and the Northwest Ordinance of 1787, as reasserted by the first session of Congress after the passing of the Constitution, that showed that the Federal Government specifically had such power. Lincoln especially eschewed tactics such as those used by John Brown and other radical abolitionists that sought to foment an armed struggle in order to end slavery. See Lincoln at Cooper Union: The speech that made Abraham Lincoln president by Harold Holzer ISBN 0743224671 (paperback). Too Old 04:05, 2005 Jun 24 (UTC)

Legal status of US political parties
Are US political parties incorporated or chartered organisations? Associations, foundations? What is the legal framework here? --User:194.134.189.73 03:22, 15 Aug 2003 (originally unsigned)


 * Technically I think they are criminal organizations, and thus have a rather loose and hard to discern internal power structure. --User:142.177.103.79 19:18, 9 Sep 2003 (originally unsigned)

To address a question way back here --
 * Are US political parties incorporated or chartered organisations? Associations, foundations? What is the legal framework here?

-- this is actually a complicated issue that should be addressed somewhere. american political parties are none of these things. They are informal associations of individuals and organizations. There are "national committees" for both major parties, but it would be inaccurate to describe them as being equivalent to a party organization. Joining or leaving a political party is an extremely informal act and rarely means anything concrete for people who are not elected officials.

That being said, I think that this article on the Republican party still needs extensive work. Portions of it are biased in favor of the party and portions are biased against the party. Need some real neutralization here.

E.g., "beloved" McKinley? Also, the section on the "flip-flopping" of the parties needs work. Anyone who speaks of the relative changes of the parties' positions already knows that the south is a special case through the Civil Rights era (and, after all, this is an article about the Republican party, not the Democratic party). And do we know for a fact that liberal Republicans "died out"? Isn't there a possibility that there are some left? Given that possibility, maybe the language could be moderated. Acsenray 21:10, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Article shortcomings, Israeli issues
OK, this article sucks. First of all, it says nothing about its origins in the Civil War and the controversy over Lincoln, and even how the slogan party of Lincoln gets used in propaganda (any time you want to enslave someone.... invoke Lincoln!). GOP is in fact the legal name I believe, and the term "Republican" is a nickname that may be the legal name of some later state parties.

Is it really right to describe the whole party as "hawkish, pro-Israel, and pro-foreign intervention"? That seems like the Bush Administration and Project for a New American Century but not like John McCain or Olympia Snowe necessarily. It's true that some moderates like Jim Jeffords and Gary Johnson have departed the Republicans recently, so this could be mentioned as evidence of that view of a shift "to the right". Right-wing politics could also be more explicitly mentioned. Contrasts with the United States Democratic Party and Green Party of the United States and Libertarian Party of the United States in structural not ideological terms, would be welcome, as it would show something about the power structure internally.

Also, encouraging every loony Muslim on Earth to join Al Qaeda by stupid invasions and stupid policy blunders and stupid comments is not necessarily a pro-Israel policy, despite what they say. Some believe Republicans who are Fundie Christaligionismists actually want to implement the Book of Revelation which would get most of "Israel" killed off, and the rest converted to (some pseudo off-brand of) Christianity.

Maybe best to avoid the ISrael issue altogether, lest we have to explain Zionist Occupation Government. --User:142.177.103.79 19:18, 9 Sep 2003 (originally unsigned)


 * Seeing as Democratic Party and Republican Party have actually only a few links to them, unless anyone objects within the next few days, I want to make them redirects to Democratic Party (disambiguation), and Republican Party (disambiguation) respectively (or just move the disambig pages there). I've posted this message at talk pages for both the US Dems and Reps, please continue it at Talk:United States Democratic Party.  Comments welcomed... Morwen 00:40, Dec 15, 2003 (UTC)


 * Characterizing the party as pro-Israel here would imply that the opposition (Democrats) are pro-Palestine, which is not necessarily the case. The division may hold true for many members, but it seems most politicians are more sympathetic towards Israel. So yes, I agree, leave it out. --User:68.134.168.94 20:41, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC) (signature added)


 * We definitely need a better description of Rockefeller Republicanism, but I'm far too young for it, and can't really explain it...


 * Help? -Penta 15:31, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Leadership
Speaking of a single "leader" of the Republican or Democratic Party is not simple. Gillespie is the chairman of the Republican National Committee. However, an incumbent president is generally considered the head of his party, and he selects the chair of the RNC ("in-party chair"). An "out-party chair" (i.e., McAuliffe right now) is sometimes considered the head of the Party, but even there it arguably makes more sense to speak the party's congresional leadership, or the current presidential nominee (who typically has the authority to pick a new chair if he so chooses). Really, we need a section here on how the party is structured, including an explanation of all of this. But in the meantime, calling Gillespie the party leader is inaccurate. -- Radicalsubversiv 03:02, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * Technically, they are the "leaders" of their respective parties--they control the budgets and so on. In theory, John Kerry could yell until he was blue in the face, and McAuliffe wouldn't have to spend anything (on say, ad campaigns, etc.).  In practice, he'd get fired in 5 minutes.  So they're leaders, but in a somewhat figurehead way.  That's not to say they don't have influence, however, or that they are only figureheads. Meelar 03:07, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Except that the national committee is not interchangeable with "the party." Even from a fundraising and budgetary point of view, the Hill committees (NRSC/NRCC,DSCC,DCCC) raise money and operate independently from the nat'l committee. Mostly, the national committee is responsible for fundraising and spending in coordination with federal campaigns (plus overseeing the nominations process in presidential years) -- overseeing that narrow field of campaign operations hardly you makes you "the leader" of the party. When I find the time, I'm going to work on a United States Political Party Structure article which can be linked to from the articles on both parties. Radicalsubversiv 06:31, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The President Pro Tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House should be listed as leaders of the party. I tried to put them in the box, but I was not sure how to do it correctly--frmaximos 01:22, July 31, 2005 (UTC)--frmaximos 01:22, July 31, 2005 (UTC)


 * Frmaximos, the President Pro Tempore of the Senate and Speaker of the House are not party leaders - they are there to serve the Senate and House as a whole. Indeed, the Speaker is elected by the whole body (both parties vote) and the President Pro Tem is generally an honorary position, for the longest serving member of the majority, though there is an election.  They are certainly important members of their parties, but they do not "lead" the House or Senate party members the same way that Majority Leaders do.Rkevins82 03:24, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

The President Pro Tem and the Speaker are not party officials ( and the President Pro Tem does tend to be a position of honor) but the Speaker of the House is normally the defacto leader of the Majority party ( in this case the GOP) though he is formally elected by the whole body, he is in fact selected by the majority party caucus. In the current situation with a passive Speaker and a dominant Majority leader the Speaker does seem more institutional and less of a party leader, but in the days of New Gingrich or Tip O' Neil it was clear that these were party leaders. This is reflected in the custom of the Speaker of the House presiding at the party Convention. Just as the President and Vice President are not party officials they are surely and clearly party leaders. I checked the web page for Sen. Ted Stevens, the current President Pro Tempore of the Senate and he claims he is part of his party's leadership team.--frmaximos 20:19, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

Strom Thurmond factual error
Recent modification to Strom Thurmond's entry in the list of noted Republicans:
 * Strom Thurmond (1902-2003), Senator from South Carolina and infamous segregationist while a Democrat

The qualifier is just plain wrong. Even the most apologetic interpretation of Thurmond's voting and rhetoric record has him as a segregationalist into the 1970s, and there's a reasonable case to be made he never repudiated his segregationalist past. I'm removing the qualifier. If someone wants to remove the bit about him being an "infamous segregationalist" as a compromise, that's fine. However, I'm leaving it there because it's a true statement, and it's an important reason why he joined the Republican party. -- RobLa 06:33, 6 May 2004 (UTC)


 * The qualifier is correct. The entire time Thrumond was a Democrat, he was a segregationist.  There is no evidence he continued being one after the 1970s, so for the majority of the time Thurmond was a Republican he can not be classified as being in support of segregation.  And the idea that Thurmond moved to the GOP to continue segregation doesn't make sense.  In 1964, Republicans in both the house and the senate voted in favor of the Civil Rights Act by a larger margin than did Democrats.  In the House, 61% of Democrats voted in favor, vs. 80% of Republicans, while in the Senate it was 69% of Democrats vs. 82% of Republicans.    He may have left because he didn't like the treatment he recieved from a president from his own party, but it was not because he thought the GOP would help him bring back the old ways. The statement of his being a segregationist should be removed because it has nothing to do with his party affiliation, but because he was an old white guy from South Carolina.  If that statement stays, the entry for Robert Byrd on the Democratic Party of the United States artilce shoule be changed to include  infamous segregationist, as it is just as true. Gentgeen 12:34, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

I'm going to have to jump into the author's defense here. By the time the 1970s rolled around Thurmond was the first Senator to hire a black assistant (and no I don't mean servant).

Reversion (17 May 2004)
I reverted this because I took it to be politically motivated vandalism. Someone with more knowledge on the subject might want to check up on it. This contributers other edits look a little 'political' to me too but it isn't my area of expertise, so I wouldn't like to evert all their stuff. Monk Bretton 19:16, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

Serious NPOVing needed
First, this article is crippled by conservative apologetics. Describing the Republican Party without some appropriate historical reference to both Spanish American War imperialism and post-Civil War state capitalist industrialization is akin to describing the Democratic Party without reference to the Civil Rights Movement and the Vietnam War. Where is the discussion of the runaway corruption during the Grant Presidency? That earnest young conservatives might be embarrassed by such revelations is not surprising, but to exclude them is downright dishonest. Orwellian rewriting of history is a sure indicator of an authoritarian mindset. So, YES, this article really really sucks. Attempts to edit it are efforts to save it and not POV.

"reference to the Civil Rights Movement and the Vietnam War" What the hell does this mean? Republicans overwhelmingly supported Civil Right legislation. And being anti-communist they rightfully supported the war against the North Vietnamese agressors.

Second, with respect to the question of legal organization of U.S. parties, the answer is that they subject to both state and national law. Each state has its own laws governing state party organization and national laws control campaign finance etc. Although the German Constitution (former Basic law) establishes a party-state and assigns specific roles and responsibilities to German poltiical parties, that is not true under the U.S. Constitution or under the "British Constitution" which our British cousins have neglected to commit to a single document. --User:66.20.28.21 16:17, 30 May 2004 (originally unsigned)

I concur. This article is just a little over the top. Puts the GOP into a very bad light. Granted, personally, I would never vote for them, but thereare some serious POV issues here.


 * If I'm not mistaken, the comment you're "concurring" with (which is six months old) is complaining that the article is biased in favor of the GOP. I'm not saying the article's perfect, but the fact that two different people can read it and see it as biased in opposite directions is probably a good sign of its relative neutrality. RadicalSubversiv E 21:36, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

McCarthy as an "infamous anti-communist"
How is calling McCarthy an infamous anti-communist a POV statement? Certainly he called himself an anti-communist. And my dictionary defines infamous as "having an exceedingly bad reputation," which McCarthy unquestionably does (see any history textbook), regardless of what any of us think of him. What's the problem here? RadicalSubversiv E 05:58, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
 * I suppose it's based on the implied link between the two; there's a suggestion that he's infamous because he was an anti-communist, which is inaccurate. MisfitToys 15:27, Sep 8, 2004 (UTC)

Would the moderators please automatically disqualify Radical Subersive based on his hokey leftist username?

It makes it sound as if anti-communism is infamous as opposed to Sen.McCarthy. One could allude to his infamy so as to distinguish if from his anti-communism " The the infamous Joseph McCarthy, the noted anti -communist" If we were, for example to refer to Roy Cohn as " the infamous homosexual" it would imply he was infamous for reasons of his homosexuality. McCarthy was not infamous because he was an anti -communist, he was infamous for his methods of dealing with his anti-communism. --frmaximos 19:49, July 31, 2005 (UTC)
 * Frmaximos, if anything, McCarthy is infamous for not being able to deal with his anti-communism. --Ezeu 01:38, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

all anti-commes are usually pretty infamous. They have a talent for always thinking they are right and not hearing second opinnions.


 * Anti-communists do not "always" think they are right any more than most political activists. Think of it this way, if one is willing to stand-up for a cause, whatever it be, that person is opening himself to criticism.  He must be convinced of his righteousness before he will enter the arena.  Also, please put some more consideration into future posts (judging by your contributions a bit more effort at reconciling would be welcome).  Oh, and you can sign your post with four tildes. Rkevins82 07:16, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Putting Republicans for Kerry back
I guess the person who removed "Republicans for Kerry" didn't read their website, as they are a coalition of registered Republicans (not Dems or liberals, Republicans) trying to draw the party back to its traditional values. They are similar to the Green Elephant, Republicans for Environmental Protection, and the Republican Majority for Choice. One of the feature articles on the website is by a founder of the Oregon Republican Mainstream, who was asked to leave solely because he had chosen not to support Bush this year.

They have a clear stance as Republicans and should not be eliminated, anymore than the Log Cabin Republicans or any other controversial group should. I'm not sure how someone can justify this is more about "Kerry" than about the Republican party - it's about both, just as the term "Goldwater conservative" or the term "Rockefeller Republican" (linked in the article without any problem) are about a figure and the group of Republicans he inspired. Why would they bother identifying as Republicans if their party membership lacked meaning to them? Kerry Republicans are similar to the swing voting Reagan Democrats who have been mentioned in Reagan's article and have a wiki entry of their own. Note also that the term "Reagan Democrats" appears in the *Democratic party* wiki entry, and no one had a problem with it there.

Since this person will no doubt try to remove it again if I put it back in the same spot, I am putting a different link below to note that they are critical of the current GOP leadership. Let's see if that can solve our problem as happily as possible. --Noirdame 05:45, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Since when were socialized health care, revoking tax cuts, etc. "traditional values" of the GOP? That's stated right on the front page. But I digress. I will stand by your revert, but blame their unfortunately named website. You're right, I didn't read it. I apologize for my shortsightedness. I also thought it belonged more with Kerry because after the election, will they still be "Republicans for Kerry?" Will they still be Republicans for Kerry in 2008?


 * Your mention of "Reagan Democrats" is valid, but I don't see an extlink for Reagan Democrats. I can see there being one back in 1984, but I always thought of extlinks as being a permanent thing, not temporary. But again, you bring up good points. Probably doesn't help, though, that I've actually heard of "Reagan Democrats."


 * I don't like Bush. But dear lord, why were we given John Kerry as the substitute? I am a registered Republican and I will gladly and unflinchingly vote Badnarik in my state, NC, quite possibly a swing state. A pox upon on all their houses. (I really ought to stop being lazy and change my registration to L)


 * I like your baseless assumption that I am immune to reason and will "no doubt" try to remove it. Put it back wherever you please. --Golbez 06:45, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I would recommend removing the link because Wikipedia is not a link repository. Furthermore, this group is of marginal significance. Kevin Rector 17:27, Aug 17, 2004 (UTC)

I understand your concern about where this group would be after the election, but by and large these are moderate Republicans who are breaking with the current GOP leadership, including office holders, long time party members and former political appointees. An article called the "Moderate Republican primer" is a main story on the site. Considering the people who have left other GOP organizations (like the Oregon Republican Mainstream founder, and the leader of Republicans Abroad Belgium) to join Republicans for Kerry, this will likely evolve into a more official opposition group - such as WesPac and one of the anti-Nader groups evolved from the Draft Clark campaign. As for my assumption, I never suggested you were immune to reason, but it was snipped while the other link (to another moderate group that is playing a bigger role in the party) was kept. But I appreciate that that disagreement doesn't need to be continued.

Kevin Rector, you may be making a good point - this group (which has several hundred members) may or may not be of marginal significance. The recent coverage of Republicans who are planning to vote against Bush, his low approval rating, and interparty spats indicates a significant minority that is very angry with his administration specifically and the neoconservative wing of the party generally. Can't remember this happening with Bush last time, certainly not with Dole or Reagan. Whatever the outcome of the election, this is the tip of the iceberg in terms of the current schism between the moderate, conservative and neoconservative wings of the party. There's a laudable section detailing the different wings, but not noting that they have been in more conflict during the Bush administration. The emerging Republican majority theory held that the moderate and conservative wings would probably become the new primary parties, marginalizing the Democrats further. Perhaps rather that just links, more details need to be added to the article about these trends and controversies, i.e. the Club for Growth, Republican Main Street, etc. --Noirdame 07:23, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC) (originally unsigned)


 * "Republicans for Kerry" gets some 4,500 Google hits, so I think it's safe to say that they deserve at least a cursory mention in the Wikipedia. My suggestion: Republican critics of the GOP (er, isn't that redundant?) or Schisms within the GOP party could be a useful new article. If this schism is even half the iceberg you say it is, it deserves its own article. We shouldn't try to cram an iceberg into the main Republican article. List the factions here, sure. But we should probably devote a separate article to their, um, interactions. &bull; Benc &bull; 12:08, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Seeing that it's a non-insignificant group of republicans &mdash; yep, it it should be there. But put in a few sentences to put it into perspective. And don't list it below external links -- the relavant paragraph (which I don't think I'm qualified to write myself) should be part of the article, under a heading of "Dissident republicans". I think "Republican critics of the GOP" is the wrong title. These guys are members of the GOP themselves and they are not critics of the party per se. They do however appear to be at odds with a majority of other fellow party members as regards a number of issues &mdash; so much at odds that they are taking the unusual step of supporting the democratic party's candidate on this particular occassion. For this reason, I think "Dissident republicans" would be the best title. Ropers 21:52, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Any link to "Democrats for Kerry" is inherently POV and not encyclopedic. Rex071404 22:47, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I saw this at WP:RFC and thought I would drop by. I am not too hot about this issue, but I thought I'd drop by because it just didn't seem quite encyclopedic. Then again, a lot of things that are not ecyclopedic seem to be creeping in as links at the bottom of articles. Does the article discuss the issue of Republicans for Kerry? Or does the link amount to a spam ad? Tom 15:17, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

NO NEED FOR REPUBLICANS FOR KERRY: THEY DID NOT PLAY A HISTORICAL ROLE IN THE PARTY OR IN THE UNITED STATES. REAGAN DEMOCRATS HELPED TURN THE TIDE OF AN ELECTION. END OF STORY.

might be more appropriate on the election 2004 pages. Kevin Baastalk 03:40, 2005 Apr 25 (UTC)

Page refactoring
I've refactored this talk page so that I could read it thoroughly, subject by subject, before responding to the issue posted on Requests for comment. I organized the threads chronologically, added section headers, re-indented, and added missing signatures and timestamps. I did not change a single word of in any of the comments, however. &bull; Benc &bull; 11:50, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Primary principles
"Today its primary political principles include deregulated free-market capitalism..." ... then why do they subsidize corporations all the time? That's not laissez-faire. How should this be resolved in the article? Kevin Baas | talk 01:13, 2004 Sep 1 (UTC)

Corporate Subsidies
I don't see anywhere for that in the Republican part platform, and it was added by a clear democrat supporter. Unless he has some neutral source I think it should be removed as it's not NPOV.

Neutral source: - look at the voting records and bill sponsorship. Kevin Baas | talk 00:47, 2004 Sep 8 (UTC)

This might be a more efficient source: Kevin Baas | talk 00:51, 2004 Sep 8 (UTC)

It's up to the person that added to defend his sources, provide me links to bills where Republicans provided money (with no expectation of payback) without receiving a service or product in return. I can think of several instances on the top of my head where Democrats sponsored bail outs bills, and the Republicans go along with it.

Now they might overpay for that service or product because auditors increase the cost (USAF auditors cause a 30% in GE aircraft engines on cost+ contracts).

PPGMD

(whine) Because people are too lazy to do clear and open-minded research before they form their hard opinions. (end whine) Here's one: Medicare Act of 2003, (FOX news).

Here's some more:

2002 Energy Bill

Farm Bill (H.R. 2646)

That's just a start. Those bills should be very familiar to people. Although the claims that PPGMD asked me to substantiate can be substantiated, I am not making them. I am making only one claim, which I wrote in the article. Kevin Baas | talk 22:41, 2004 Sep 8 (UTC)

Your wording makes it sounds like the GOP is the only party that pushes for them, they are used on an equal or greater basis as democrats by the Democrats. *whine* people feel they can edit this articles all they want without asking for proof. The burden of proof for partisan pages like Bush and such is on the editor. Otherwise I could edit the McPeak page and say he was the spawn of Satan (which many in the USAF would probably believe hated as he is), and you must prove me wrong */whine*

I feel that the way that the statement is worded is wrong, I know that the government offers business encouragement to do things the way it wants, but it's used by both parties.

I think that it should be worded: "excepting tax breaks and subsidies, to encourage business to follow their agenda, as used by both parties." or something to that effect.

PPGMD


 * Firstly, my wording does not suggest that it is only done by the Republicans. Secondly, look at the voting records for those bills, and an unbiased sample of bills in general.  Thirdly, watch CSPAN & CSPAN2.  Then discuss the empirical facts regarding corporate subsidies, support for / opposition to bills, and republican principles.


 * Also, stay on topic: this have nothing to do with "business encouragement". Regarding your whine, let me reassure you that people do not feel that they can edit this aricle all they want without asking for proof, and that you could not edit the McPeak page and say he was the spawn of Satan without people reverting it as vandalism.  So rest easy, people are worthy of more Good Faith. Kevin Baas | talk 20:48, 2004 Sep 9 (UTC)

Church and state
Re: my addition "and interpret the traditional separation of church and state as prohibiting only the official establishment of a state church", and Kevin Baas' comment on revert "have you read the law? it is impossible to interpret it that way. it begins "congress shall make no law..."" If you read the article on separation of church and state in the United States, this subject is covered there; in fact, the law was interpreted precisely that way for about 150 years. Referring to "revoking" the separation is technically meaningless, as separation is a term used in discussing the clause, rather than a term which is actually in the constitution. Stating that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion was long taken to mean that Congress could not establish a state religion - not that the law could not demonstrate or reflect a public respect for religious values/beliefs. (This subject goes toward European issues regarding disestablishmentarianism.) Re: Changing right-wing to morally traditional (as to Judeo-Christian values) - "right-wing" can be somewhat pejorative; the article on that term doesn't discuss religious issues at all, and merely points out that the term is generally used to mean conservative. Little, if anything, is added by the link. MisfitToys 15:43, Sep 8, 2004 (UTC)


 * Regarding "right-wing" - i don't have any attachment to that phrase/link, and I agree, it's relevancy is questionable, at best. i don't like the use of the word "morally", though, because it's assumed/redundant - you can't have a social body without mores, and it makes it sound like their morality is the morality, and that they are innately "good", i.e., it's subtle pov.  how about just "traditional"?


 * Re: church and state, i would not say the law was interpreted precisely that way, and i don't see anything in the article on separation of church and state to suggest that. Perhaps some people interpreted it that way, but does that constitute the majority view of this faction?  that's the question i'm concerned with.  I have no problem with it being in there if it indeed represents the majority view.  In any case, I think "weakening" should be in there.  Kevin Baas | talk


 * I just saw the recent compromise. I like the new wording of the "traditional Judeo-Christian moral values" part. I would still like the church-state section to be tweaked.  I think we should have both interpretations in there, granted that they both represent majority views. Kevin Baas | talk 16:11, 2004 Sep 8 (UTC)


 * How about (wiki links bolded): ... and interpret the establishment clause of the First Amendment as prohibiting only the official establishment of a state church, as opposed to the more secularist view that the clause prohibits the government from incorporating religion-based values in the law, so as to effect a strict separation of church and state. MisfitToys 18:05, Sep 8, 2004 (UTC)


 * That sounds good. :) Kevin Baas | talk 18:41, 2004 Sep 8 (UTC)

VANDALISM
THERE IS VANDALISM GOING ON in the article that this page represents. WHILE I SUPPORT John Kerry, I DO NOT SUPPORT VANDALISM BY ANYONE, DEM OR GOP. Rickyrab 03:09, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Andrew Johnson
"upheavals of Reconstruction under Republican presidents Andrew Johnson (though he had bitter disputes with the Republicans in Congress, who eventually impeached him) and Ulysses S. Grant."

Is this factually correct? I have always read that Johnson was a Southern Democrat tolerated by the Republicans because he did not leave the Senate upon secession, and used by Republicans to show their bipartisanship. I have also read that he was less than dedicated to Lincoln's reconstruction.


 * More or less, yes. Johnson was disliked by both Dems and Republicans. There was a split in the Republican party between the Radical Republicans, who despised Johnson, and moderates, who were willing to work with Johnson. But the Radicals wielded power in the party and had the upper hand. older &ne; wiser 00:58, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

So then Johnson was not, in fact, a "Republican President". Someone should correct this factual error in the document.


 * Although Johnson had been a Democrat, he was elected on the Republican Party ticket headed by Lincoln, so he was technically a Republican president. older &ne; wiser 16:03, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

That's incorrect. Johnson was a Democrat running with a Republican on a "National Union" ticket. This does not make him a Republican anymore than a say, Liberal-New Democrat coalition in Canada would make New Democrats into Liberals. Khanartist 22:50, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Then we need more information about this "National Union" ticket. It is usually reported as being a Republican ticket, but then parties then were not quite the same organizations as what we have today. older &ne; wiser 23:02, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

It was a ticket designed to attract War Democrats such as Johnson to Lincoln. It was used only in the presidential election.

But the point is that there is no reason to assume that running with a Republican automatically made him a Republican. There is nothing in law or the Constitution to that effect, and none of Johnson's contemporaries considered him a Republican. There's nothing to stop two canddates of different parties to run on the same ticket, either. Khanartist 17:46, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * The so-called "National Union" party was simply the Republican Party using a new name to try and attract voters. Your comparison to this being like a "Liberal-New Democrat coalition in Canada" is misleading as it was the Republican Party in all but name only. They simply recruited a Democrat to run as vice-president. The Democratic party ran its own candidate so there was no coalition. So he was in fact elected as a Republican, under the National Union rubric. older &ne; wiser 14:20, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)

So, Johnson was a Democrat who was President, but he was a Republican President? Did this Democrat who was President at least act like a Republican President?

GOP
Is there any explanation for the name Grand Old Party? What is the history of the name? Any possibility of editing the article to explain this. --Tagishsimon

Removals
I removed that fiscal conservatives are in favor of "illegal immigration" and "equal taxation". First of all, illegal immigration--I strongly doubt they actually favor people coming into the country illegally. Meanwhile, their opposition isn't nearly as strong or notable as the paleoconservatives. Better to leave it out. As for the "equal taxation", what does that even mean? I think it's a code word for a flat tax, but I can't be sure, and even if I'm right, there's by no means universal agreement on the need for a flat tax amongst fiscal conservatives. Meelar (talk) 22:43, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)

Unnecessary factions
I do think the Factions section is bloated by beyond necessity. I'm going to remove "Reagan Republicans" as that alleged faction is spread out and encompasses the Religious Right, neoconservatives, and fiscal conservatives in a Republican union that began during his tenure. In fact, by describing the factions of the Republican party, you are describing the very coalition of conservative and right-wing groups that Reagan brought together. Despite partisan talk, Reagan is not what you would term a classical conservative. He increased defense spending and U.S. involvement overseas - which is ideologically diametrical to the isolationist policies of traditional conservatives. Classical conservatives probably identify more with Goldwater and his fiscal conservatism. Reagan conservatism is what supplanted much of Republican Party's classical conservatism with a more radical branch that intends to implement stark right-wing CHANGES to government and society. --Narc1

"Same-sex marriage" vs. "gay rights"
I reverted it to the earlier phrasing because the Republican position on gay issues go far beyond opposition to same-sex marriage. The Republican Party has consistently opposed virtually all legislative efforts in favor of gay rights almost as long as it has been an issue, whereas the specific focus on same-sex marriage is merely the latest front in these battles. Republicans have and continue to oppose anti-discrimination ordinances, allowing gays to serve in the military, and the providing any form of legal benefits to gay couples (the 2004 GOP platform is very clear on the latter point). I see no evidence that the "gay rights" phrasing is inaccurate, especially next to the far more questionable "militarism" that follows it. RadicalSubversiv E 03:41, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

No, I think your interpretation is rather POV. The platform, and most prominent Republican politicians support disallowing same-sex marriage, not restriction of gay rights. You may personally think Republicans are trying to limit gay rights, but for a neutral article, I suspect it is more fair to stick to the actual stated positians of the party. - Matt


 * This is demonstrably not true. Go re-read the platform, which opposes any form of legal benefits for gay couples, and is silent on anti-discrimination legislation, which Republicans have routinely opposed. "Same-sex marriage" is far too specific. RadicalSubversiv E 04:32, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Judging by the actual language of the platform, I think you are still overstating matters. It reads, "We further believe that legal recognition and the accompanying benefits afforded couples should be preserved for that unique and special union of one man and one woman which has historically been called marriage."  It is possible I'm overlooking something, but calling this blanket opposition to 'gay rights' seems like a far too broad interpretation of the party's stated position.  What if we changed the text to something more specific, such as "opposition to instituting same-sex marriage, and several other additional forms of gay rights"?
 * UPDATE Assuming no one objects to my proposed language within 24 hours or so, I'm going to update it to what I have proposed here.


 * I continue to object. That platform language was specifically approved so as to oppose to civil unions and similar arrangements (alternatives were proposed -- they were voted down by the platform committee). And still no one has responded to the fact that Republicans have opposed virtually every piece of gay rights legislation in Congress and state legislatures for the last three decades (anti-discrimination legislation in employment and housing, allowing gays to serve in the military, allowing gay couples to adopt children, etc.). RadicalSubversiv E 01:36, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Homosexuals should not have any more rights than normal people do. Period.

Right now they have less rights, and are you also implying that homosexuals are not normal? I believe that everyone should have equal rights, no matter what sexual orientation. That could be considered discrimination, and some gay legislation that has been struck down by conservative republicans intent on "protecting family values" was actually something that should have been passed. This includes anti-discrimination laws and laws barring harrassment based on sexual orientation.


 * Can you be more thorough in explain exactly what it means that they're against "gay rights". I'm don't live in America, and I want to know more about the party, but that phrase doesn't explain the position at all. Is the party against giving gays the right to vote? Against allowing gays drivers licenses? Against gay marriage and any kinds of benefits for two or more gay people associating together? Using the broad phrase "against gay rights" seems like you're suggesting that the Republican party is against giving gays equal rights altogether in all aspects of the society. --65.161.65.104 00:42, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Certainly, it means opposition to gay marriage; the status of civil unions is less clear, but most Republicans certainly aren't putting much energy into that fight--one gets the impression that the status quo (i.e., no form of partnership rights for gays) is quite acceptable to the party as a whole. In general, most Republicans also support Don't Ask, Don't Tell, though again, it's a big-tent party, even if there's one more-dominant faction. Bear in mind, this is my analysis only, disclaimer, yadda yadda. HTH, [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 01:00, Dec 20, 2004 (UTC)


 * Gay rights has a fairly clear meaning in American politics, explained in its Wikipedia article and encompassing a set of initiatives to protect gays and lesbians from discrimination and afford gay couples the same legal benefits available to heterosexual ones. Republicans have opposed basically all of these initiatives, though they are now concentrating their fire on the marriage issue. I'll take issue with Meelar here on several fronts. First, Republicans, as a whole, are opposed to civil unions while doing their best not to talk about it directly, as the fight over their 2004 platform indicated. Secondly, Republicans did not support Don't Ask, Don't Tell when it was an issue; on the contrary, many of them fought tooth-and-nail to preserve the earlier policy of active investigation and punishmnent. Now that the policy is fairly entrenched, they of course prefer it to allowing gays to serve openly in the military. This isn't about "same-sex marriage", it's about the party's consistent position over the last few decades of opposing all gay rights initiatives. As for making the article more thorough, that could be done somewhere further down; the section you're citing is an attempt to summarize the key political principles of the party. RadicalSubversiv E 01:56, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Immature Vandalism
Please stop. If you disagree with the subject of this page you are welcome to offer a rebuttal. As it is you are acting as an ass.


 * There's been quite a bit of vandalism in the past few days, on both this and on United States Democratic Party. It won't go away until some time after the election is decided.  Should these pages be temporarily protected?  George W Bush and John Kerry are.    Banks 23:32, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Republican Senatorial Medal of Freedom
Can we have help sorting this out please? Does anyone have a trustworthy list of recipients? Dunc|&#9786; 17:51, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

ElectGOP.net link
Wikipedia is not a links directory, or a vehicle for personal advertising. The purpose of an external links section in an article like this is to provide links to the relevent key organizations of the GOP -- the RNC, the Main Street Partnership, etc. ElectGOP.net is a non-notable site run by a single individual (I presume the contributor, trying to attract more visitors) -- I see no reason for Wikipedia to link to it. RadicalSubversiv E 19:22, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This person seems to have added that link to quite a number of GOP-related topics. Khanartist 20:56, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Please ban Radicalsubversiv from this topic
Please do not allow this individual (Radicalsubversiv) to sabbotage the viability of the Wikipedia, as well at the good name of the 'Grand Old Party'.

This kind of behavior is a drain on Democracy, and a sure killer of the faithful efforts of contributors. user:weide 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Illegial bombing of Cambodia
I'm no expert on the topic, so under what jurisdiction was it illegial? Thanks.
 * The bombing attacks, not to mention the boder incursions, by US forces into Cambodia during the Nixon adminstration, were illegal under the jurisdiction of international law. At the time, Cambodia was an officially neutral country.  Although the nation did not remain neutral after the deposition of Sihanouk, it is quite cleat that Cambodia was formally neutral during much of the bombing campaign, and thus the bombing campains were illegal.  Banks 03:36, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Thanks. In light of that, shouldn't we note that the bombings were illegial under international law, since said law is somewhat controvesial?
 * I don't really think that is neccesary. I don't really see any serious controversy, although I am of course willing to listen. To add some more details to those given in my previous post, the rules surrounding neutrality are defined principally by the Hague Convention V of the Second Peace Convention of the Hague, to which the United States of America is a signatory.  This states in Article One: "The territory of neutral Powers is inviolable."    Banks 01:22, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I'm a little fuzzy on the details, but wasn't there an argument that Nixon lacked the authority to bomb Cambodia (as opposed to Vietnam) under the war powers clause/resolution, and hence the bombings were illegal under American law? RadicalSubversiv E 01:00, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I beleive the main point called into question under US law was the legality of Nixon's use of executive privlege to conceal the existence of the bombings from all but his inner circle. I've read that this issue was considered for the Articles of Impeachment, but eventually dropped due to legal ambiguity.  I'm not certain as to any arguments regarding the War Powers Act Banks 01:22, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I would argue rather the poorly supported term massive versus the term secret which is historically significant.  Perhaps it is wiser to avoid jabs at complicated secret foreign policy in an encyclopedia sound bite.  The fact that this issue affected Nixon's legacy is the key point here. weide 01:53, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Label "right-wing" appropriate?
Is it really right to have the Republican Party branded as "right-wing" while the U.S. Democratic Party is not branded "left-wing?" It should be edited out to conform with NPOV standards. --rmsharpe Dec 16 2004 10:25PM CST


 * I'm not sure if I have a particularly strong opinion about the use of the term specifically, but the article should make clear the GOP, taken as a whole, is more ideologically uniform and extreme than the Democrats. The Democrats are not a left party, especially by international standards (and I say this as someone who wishes they were). The GOP definitely is a conservative one, by virtually any standard. NPOV does not mean that we create "balance" between articles where there is none in reality. RadicalSubversiv E 05:21, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I think it is highly debatable whether or not the GOP is more ideologically uniform or extreme. It may seem that way to you (given your political stance), but many other observers disagree.  Both parties are complex alliances of different factions.  Within the GOP, you have a libertarian wing, religious right, neoconservatives, Rockefeller Republicans, and so on.


 * It is definitely important to place the GOP on the political spectrum as a part of the article. In the accepted left=liberal right=conservative political spectrum, the GOP is firmly in the right wing, whereas the Democratic Party is significantly more centrist in their views.  Understand that I am not speaking solely in terms of american political parties here; I am speaking in terms of political ideals as a whole.  Of course the Democrats are "left-wing" compared to the GOP- we only have two effective parties.  If viewed more global terms, Radicalsubversiv is precisely correct- the Democrats are moch less left than the Republicans are right.  Thus, I don't think it's inappropriate at all to describe the GOP as right-wing - they ARE right wing.  Banks 06:53, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I must completely disagree with the notion that the GOP is "right-wing" as viewed from an international perspecive. Traditionally, "right wing" on the international political spectrum has been used to describe groups such that are monarchist, militarist, or theocratic, ie nazis, fascists, the Taliban, Peronistas. The Republican Party in the US clearly falls well within the "liberal" category on the international scale, ie supportive of things such as democracy, free markets, and rule of law, ie ideas that are almost universally shared in the US. Compared to the Baathist party that rules Syria, for instance, the GOP is in fact, extremely liberalPoe 0235, 29 Dec 2004


 * Using the Ba'athists as a benchmark seems slightly miscalculated to my mind. If we use the generally-recognized right-wing parties of multiparty democracies instead, such as the PC in Canada, the Liberals in Australia, the PAN in Mexico, the aptly-named Conservatives of the UK, then we see that the GOP is firmly right-wing, internationally. What political party doesn't look liberal when compared to fascists? Khanartist 09:01, 2004 Dec 29 (UTC)


 * The term "right wing" in American politicans is a term of derision applied usually towards the more extreme conservatives by Democrats or social moderates. It is often used to contrast one end of the party from the Republican moderates.  Calling the entire party "right wing" is not accurate.  Also, I added that the GOP is "currently" the more conservative of the two parties, because it was definitely a radical party during the time of its inception and postbellum periods.  --BaronLarf 15:22, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

Oy! NPOV, folks
You're making us look bad.

Section on "...deregulated free-market capitalism (excepting corporate tax breaks, bribery and subsidies), along with nationalism, cronyism, nepotism, bloated government, religiosity, ..." uses pejorative terms for behavior, rather than remaining neutral. If no one speaks up shortly, I'm going to edit this mercilessly. -- Metahacker 20:25, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Much of what you point to was just inserted by an anonymous IP who I've just reverted. Beyond that, I'm not sure what you mean by "edit mercilessly", but I would caution against inciting an edit war. Might be better to cite specific concerns here and try to arrive at consensus. RadicalSubversiv E 20:35, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * That was in fact what I was referring to. And "edit mercilessly" was just a referral to the standard text at the bottom of every edit page...

Watergate as a "disappointment?" The convenient removal of the illegal Cambodia bombings? After a quick look at these changes and Libertas' user page, it's clear that neutrality isn't on his agenda. Khanartist 05:15, 2005 Jan 7 (UTC)

I am a Republican. I loathe Howard Dean. I spit on Ralph Nada. I am honest about it, as per User page indicates in stars and stripes. I am here to challenge the dominant leftist paradigm which is crippling Wikipedia's neutrality quest. And to do that credibly, I think it's important to fully disclose views.


 * One must, when confronted with a perceived ubiquitous bias among a not entirely uninformed group of people, at least consider the possibilities of its as well as ones own judgment being misguided.

"Disgrace" is probably as POV a term as there is. "Disappointment" is neutral.

I removed the Cambodian issue because it was so clearly not an issue in the 1976 election, which the paragraph dealt with.

You will not get very far with me just reverting and not explaining. Play by the rules and we'll make some progress. Libertas

Where do I start? The entire article is a joke. Libertas

Factions
Factions exist within the GOP but if you take this biased article seriously you'd think they were separate parties. It's never been that way. I propose a complete removal of this unsourced nonsense and note there is nothing of its kind in the Democrats article. Funny that. Libertas


 * I agree that this whole section on factions needs major reworking. The GOP is a more cohesive party than the Democratic party, many would argue, and the Dem article doesn't have a huge list like this.  Could we move it to a seperate article with a link to it from this article?  There's potential for enough information to fill up another whole article.  --BaronLarf 14:08, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)


 * Seeing how the page is also over the 32Kb limit, I'm going to move this to a seperate page with a link underneath the heading unless I hear an objection soon. I won't delete any of the information, so any debate over its content can talk place over on that page.  --BaronLarf 22:37, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)

Objections to Revised Article
Can anyone objecting to the Revised Article please list and explain their concerns here. Returning to the previous article, a tall tale of factional division and disputation within the GOP where all Republican Presidents were crooks and cowards is just not an option, so let's work through the changes and work towards neutrality and excellence. Libertas


 * A small sampling:


 * Calling the GOP the "majority party" is POV. The matter of whether the GOP now has an enduring political majority is dealt with later in the article -- there's plenty of well-respected critics who dispute the notion, for a variety of reasons.


 * A majority party is a statemnt of fact. The Democrats have been the majority party for most of their history, particularly when promoting segregation. Libertas
 * Majority is a temporary thing. I think it is not a necessary element of the Republican party; it is what they currently are. I think leaving it at "holds a majority of seats in the House and Senate" in the following sentences is sufficient. -- Metahacker 15:49, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, perhaps just a change to "holds the White House and the majority of seats in the House and Senate" would be more clear. --BaronLarf 18:17, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)


 * There is no reason to move "It is not to be confused with the Democratic-Republican party ..." to the bottom of the article. It is not phrased as a formal disambiguation notice, and if it were it would belong at the top.


 * It probably ought to be deleted entirely, there is no confusion. Libertas
 * Actually, there is some confusion, especially when history students learn about the Democratic-Republican party and think it split up into two parties. I would recommend moving it to the beginning of the history section. -- Metahacker 15:49, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Metahacker's suggestion sounds better than having it at the top of the page. I really doubt that someone's going to come to this page looking for the old Democratic-Republicans. --BaronLarf 18:17, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)


 * No reason whatsoever to remove "Many of its initial policies were inspired by the defunct Whig Party. Many of its early members came from the Free Soil Party and American Party."


 * Just not relevant, not interesting, plenty of other things to say Libertas
 * Not sure about that. Knowing where its members came from is interesting. I'd love a big chart of how parties split up, recombined, and fractured over time. -- Metahacker 15:49, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'd agree that the origins of the GOP should be retained. --BaronLarf 18:17, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)


 * Whether the Democratic Party supported slavery more than a century ago is a subject for the history section of the Democratic Party article, not the lead of this one. In addition, Libertas's change is incorrect: the party was seriously split over the matter.


 * Its very important to contrast the Republicans opponents, the Democrats desire to treat African Americans like cattle was a defining issue of the time. It nearly destroyed the Union. Libertas
 * Yes, no, and BOY is that a complicated question. To state it in a single appositive clause is to rob it of complexity. Start a page for Democrats Supported Slavery or something, and link to it on the Democratic page. Personally I'm not sure why the Democractic party is even mentioned on this page. -- Metahacker 15:49, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * I think it would be impossible to write an article on the Republicans without mentioning the Democrats, and vice versa. (The Demoratic Party (United States) article mentions the Republican Party quite often.)  The stance that one party takes is often in reaction to the stance of the other party.  I think that mentioning that the Democratic Party at this time would not take an anti-slavery position is quite important to the founding of the Republican Party, and one of the few issues which united its early members from the Whig Party, Free-Soil, and some anti-slavery Democrats.  It should at least be mentioned.  --BaronLarf 18:17, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)
 * Okay -- so if the Democrat (or was it D-R then?) support of slavery at the time of the founding of the Republican party was relevant then, can we put it in the historical section? As it does not represent the current values of the party -- unless I missed a memo -- it does not currently describe the Democratic party, and should not be used epithetically in their first mention. Information is most useful in context. -- Metahacker 18:29, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * The following is blatantly POV: "Today, the Republicans stand for small government, individual freedom and free-market capitalism along with national security, winning the War on Terror, family values, the reinvention of social security, and generally a Pro-Life stance on abortion." The paragraphh it replaced  had some issues as well, but was far less slanted.


 * It replaced a list of nonsense that Howard Dean himself would have objected to. Libertas
 * There should be room in this article for an articulation of what the GOP says it stands for. I would expect the same thing from an article on the Democratic party.  --BaronLarf 18:17, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)
 * How about rewriting this to list platform issues, and state that the the GOP is the source? "According to GOP documents, the current platform includes ..., ..." Sourced information gives a reader context. -- Metahacker 18:29, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Changing "rooster" to "cock" is just juvenile.


 * It took me a while to figure out what you meant, the Google fact checking I did came up with cock. Look it up too and you'll see. Cock it is. Libertas
 * I'm glad you've made a pat judgement on that. However, as Cock is (rightly) a disambiguation page, if you had truly intended this honestly (and not as a defensible jab), you would have linked cock to Rooster, as appropriate. -- Metahacker 15:49, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I agree with Metahacker. It should be Rooster. --BaronLarf 18:17, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)


 * "invention and business" is a perfectly fine phrase, changing it to "innovation and entrepreneurship" is obviously intended to be POV


 * no, they are very different, the former being quite an awkward way of expressing the concept
 * Amazingly, I'm with Libertas on this one. Though one might ask whether we are listing things the GOP claims to support, or things that it supports through action. -- Metahacker 15:49, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree with Libertas. The GOP's continued push towards deregulation and the lowering of taxes on businesses is pro-entrepreneur. Whether or not this is a good thing is something different. --BaronLarf 18:17, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)


 * The changes surrounding the 1896 election remove important information, particularly about Hanna, and inserts POV language such "pro-enterprise party".


 * why is it POV ? It's not enough just to assert it, make your argument. Libertas


 * Any basic textbook covering American political history states that the New Deal coalition dominated American politics until the 1960s, regardless of who was in the White House. Stating that it ended with the election of Eisenhower in '52 is simply false. Eisenhowever, a liberal Republican reviled by much of his own party, governed well within the post-war liberal consensus, with the cooperation of a Democratic congress.


 * The New Deal dominated the Eisenhower White House?! I don't think Ike would agree or Richard Nixon ! "Basic textbooks" might say it, but it's wrong and Wikipedia ought not. Libertas


 * Libertas's rewrite on 1980 to the present eliminates lots of important information, such as a discussion of the demographic and geographic electoral trends that built the Reagan majority, and the Bush's administration's political difficulties pre-9/11. It also inserts POV phrasings ("convincingly beat Carter with his strong communication skills and message of tax cuts and strength against the Soviets") and presents controversial interpetations as fact (such as that Clinton was elected because of Perot, a claim rejected by most political scientists and students of the 1992 polling data).


 * It replaced a turgid mess, suggest an alternative, by all means. Libertas
 * Personally I would prefer NO information to misleading, incorrect, or tainted information. I thought you felt the same way. -- Metahacker 15:49, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Why not simply state that "many within the Republican Party felt that Perot had spoiled the election for Bush", or something like that. Perot's votes had to come from somewhere, and many in the GOP believe that they came mostly from otherwise likely Bush voters.  The Dem article does something similar in discussing Nader in 2000 and 2004.  As for Reagan: I think it's a generally acknowledged that Reagan had great communication skills; Carter himself acknowledged this.  But it should be phrased in a less-POV way, I agree.--BaronLarf 18:17, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)


 * I've never been a big fan of the factions section -- been planning a rewrite for a while -- but it contains much important information and shouldn't be removed wholesale.


 * The factions thing was comic. I'll write one up for the Democrats article if I have a spare six months. Libertas
 * Again, it would have been nice to move this content to an auxiliary page -- perhaps GOP/factions or something -- instead of just deleting other people's work. Then, we could work on that page, come to some sort of concensus, and reintegrate it. -- Metahacker 15:49, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The article definitely could use some improvements, but these aren't it. Moreover, I suspect Libertas is trying to goad me due to several unrelated personal disputes (see Requests for comment/Libertas), rather than make genuinely helpful changes to the article.


 * Love you too, Radical. Good night. Libertas

RadicalSubversiv E 07:44, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Libertas, you're engaging in sophistry. For example, "pro-enterprise party" is a classic example of a logical fallacy and a basic sophistry tactic. The term creates a false dichotemy, implying the alternative is the "anti-enterprise party," when no such dichotemy can reasonably exist. The term "pro-enterprise" springs out of nowhere, as it were, to create a mental division and convince the listener that the alternative is worse, and associate it with the opponent.

In your writings there is a subtext of "I'm laughing at you. You're hypocrites." Yet, there is no sense of humor in your tone. The most powerful way to disarm an opponent in sophistry is to convince the audience that the opponent is laughable. It's ironic that sophists cannot acomplish this genuinly, and come off as bitter and resentful, as you do.

Frankly, you're undermining liberal ideals&mdash;liberal as in liberal arts. You are attacking clear thought to enforce a narrow perspective. You are not contributing, and I wish you to lower your volume so that the previously impressive signal to noise ratio may improve. &mdash;Daelin 09:24, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, it's true. It's all true. I'm a liar and, also, I must confess, a war criminal. And also guilty of sophistry and wizardry. Bitter and twisted? Sometimes, with my lemonade, which I make myself I might add and is strongly in demand with friends and family and staff.


 * OK, there is a very substantial difference between pro-business and pro-enterprise. That's why I changed it. I mean all of these Pro things make the Anti things look bad. What about Pro Life? Or Pro Choice. To be Anti Life or Anti Choice seems equally negative.


 * I don't much like those sorts of labels but the catalog of them should be fair and balanced. Look what preceded it, it sounded like a catalogue of crimes not a statement of belief. I'm sure there's a better form of words for Republican beliefs. Once I've finished the RFC project on the Troll out of Control I will get to it.


 * Frankly, I couldn't be happier about undermining liberal ideals. There's no ACLU card next to my Amex (I won't tell you the color but it would turn the likes of you green), lemme tell you.


 * My volume is on normal levels, although my left speaker is sometimes not fully functional. Is that the problem? I hope your balance is restored sometime soon.


 * Libertas

Libertas -- I have to say that your changes were not made in good faith. As you well knew, this was a contentious page, but instead of giving the opportunity for others to provide feedback to proposed changes -- a situation where no doubt you felt your opinions would be ignored -- you unilaterally made them, and dare others to revert them. This is at best confrontational, and at worst duplicious. If you want Fair and Balanced, perhaps you should not resort to this sort of editing terrorism. -- Metahacker 15:49, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

History of GOP
RadicalSubversive -- When I read your comment on your last revision ("rm dubious connection between Grant's policies and those of today (industrial protectionism and Civil War pensions are not exactly modern day GOP cornerstones)"), it would sound like an edit that I agree with. Those indeed are not modern-day GOP cornerstones. I then looked at what you removed -- a reference that "the GOP became known for its strong advocacy commerce, industry, and veterans' rights continues to this day." I disagree with this removal. First, it does not specifically say 'industrial protectionism and Civil War pensions.' Later on in the article, there are repeated references to the GOP being committed to "business" or entrepreneurial activities. The GOP has continued to be committed to veterans rights, which include the establishment of the Dept. of Veterans Affairs by Reagan in 1988.

I am, of course, open to debate. Thanks, Radical, for your watch of vandalism on this article. --BaronLarf 14:08, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)


 * The "establishment" of the Department of Veterans Affairs consisted of changing the Veterans Administration (non-Cabinet) to a Department (Cabinet). Whether any veterans benefited thereby is an open question.  Certainly the GOP's payment of lip service to helping veterans continues to this day.  Whether the actions match the language is, to put it mildly, open to dispute.  See  and  among many other examples. JamesMLane 14:27, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * First off, I removed only the phrase "continues to this day" (and I don't think it was a reversion). Secondly, I did so not because of a particular dispute over what the GOP stands for today, but because of a concern that it simplifies and misrepresents history, in implying that the GOP adopted certain policies under Grant which then continued indefinitely. "commerce, industry, and veterans' rights" meant certain things in Grant's day, which they largely don't mean now. We can argue over wheter, for example, over the GOP's support for commerce and industry, but its current policies are not those of Grant, and there is no real historical continuity, as we've had at least two party realignments since. RadicalSubversiv E 05:45, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)